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[ElzarTheBam]

Hello stranger, this is the official spoiler topic for Burial at Sea Episode 2, in here we discuss the end game to EP2 and how it fits into the wider context of the BioShock universe and we do this without using any spoiler tags.

So if you're here by accident and are looking for the non-spoiler Episode 2 OT, then you can find the link below, as well as links to other connected BioShock Infinite OTs.

Below contains links to the original BI OT, the BI spoiler OT, the topic for the first piece of DLC for BI, Clash in the Clouds (CitC), the OT for BAS EP1 and the OT for BAS EP2.

The BI spoiler OT is especially useful as a guide and refresher into the themes, understanding and general discussion on BI’s story. It is advisable that you look at it to get the most out of the story line in BAS and its ending. Just pick a door.



Glossary of terms.

BAS = Burial at Sea.
EP1 = Episode 1.
EP2 = Episode 2.
BI = BioShock Infinite.
CitC = Clash in the Clouds.
Ken = Kevin.

Thread rules:

There are no rules. Enjoy.

 

[OneLetter]

Spoiler

Booker is a sled.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Spoiler

Booker is a sled.

Spoiler

B-bu-but I thought he was Keyser Soze!

 

[catmario]

Huge spoilers.

Spoiler

Many thing that elizabeth doing hard work for rescue girl was linked to Bioshock 1. Dat elizabeth's final word, "would you kindly", was very shocked me.

There are also some interesting story explains in this dlc, for example, daisy and Luteces had met each other to discuss something.

More want story? Try yourself!

 

[ElzarTheBam]

^ I'm not going to read the above, but the point of this thread is that you don't need to spoiler tag anything!

: )

 

[Fixed2BeBroken]

I like how in episode 1 they introduced some stealth elements to add a little more depth to the gameplay, and then in this they give you full blown stealth. great transition.

the beginning in paris was epic just because I had just finished bioshock infinite and episode 1 yesterday...so all of it is fresh. Its like I felt relieved for elizabeth, but then its like oh shit!

this game is great so far

 

[MauroNL]

Anyone that has gotten to as far as I am now, can help me out?

Spoiler

I can't seem to find the hair sample I have to gather from Fink's lab when you return to Columbia. I've searched everywhere and I can't go any further without it I have moved on through the handy man assembly line to the point where I can't go any further

 

[Fixed2BeBroken]

GOT damn! this dlc is awesome. I want a full game of this..... /cry @ irrational

 

[Toa TAK]

Happy we finally saw Songbird's origins in this, and the true origins of the Big Daddies as well.

 

[Gartooth]

So... I don't know what to say about this right now. For certain I can say that it was extremely well put together and there are several great moments in the game, in particular the opening which was masterfully done. My beef hinges mostly with the plot and resolution to the game.

I find the retcons to Daisy Fitzroy's character out of place, and I have no idea why the Lutece's set her up in that manner nor did it really explain why. In the grand scheme of things it just seemed like it was inconsequential to the DLC's overall narrative.

Furthermore, on the actual ending I think the conclusion of the Bioshock series narrative as a whole was unsatisfying. They tried extremely hard to make connections that previously weren't there, and while it was certainly shocking I can't really applaud the writers for it.

Infinite's ending was highly open to interpretation for the fans and I really appreciated that, but between both Burial at Sea episodes the conclusion of the story was forced through a path so that Infinite in the end was merely a lead in for the original Bioshock. Booker and Elizabeth in the end were just sacrificed so that Jack's story would be told and I'm not sure I like that, hell I'm even wondering if that original end credits scene from BI is canon anymore in light of all this. The resolution to Elizabeth's story in particular was heart wrenching, tragic, and most unfortunate of all unworthy of that character.

At least Booker's sacrifice for Elizabeth meant something to me as a player, Elizabeth setting up the stage for Jack to save Sally and the Little Sisters just didn't connect because I didn't care about them and the game never really made me, instead I cared about Liz and in the end I just feel really shitty about the whole thing wishing that the narrative ended at the two games being in the same universe such as the surprise at the end of Infinite, and no more than that.

 

[Fixed2BeBroken]

for those that beat it....did anybody look at all the sander cohen's short film things? there was one....where its like "why did you stand there" and then you turn and holy shit....that shit scared the fuck outta me.

anyone else get that? that was creepy/david lynch good....

 

[Gartooth]

for those that beat it....did anybody look at all the sander cohen's short film things? there was one....where its like "why did you stand there" and then you turn and holy shit....that shit scared the fuck outta me.

anyone else get that? that was creepy/david lynch good....

Hahaha, yeah I had a feeling what was going to happen after watching that.

 

[sjay1994]

It was really well put together, but it does make me upset they decided to connect Bioshock with Infinite rather than letting them be their own separate entities.

 

[Banjo-Kazooie]

I was kind of hoping for an Elizabeth/Ryan team-up, was pretty friggin pumped though when he popped up on the screen after getting the hair for Suchong. Lots of awesome moments and tie-ins with this DLC for sure, solid 8/10 for me.

for those that beat it....did anybody look at all the sander cohen's short film things? there was one....where its like "why did you stand there" and then you turn and holy shit....that shit scared the fuck outta me.

anyone else get that? that was creepy/david lynch good....

I knew it was coming and knew something would be there when I turned around but it still got me a bit haha.

 

[SargerusBR]

Too bad we will probably never see a Bioshock game again...

 

[Gartooth]

It was really well put together, but it does make me upset they decided to connect Bioshock with Infinite rather than letting them be their own separate entities.

I think this in particular is what is going to cause a lot of us to split on whether or not we like the ending of this DLC. I preferred Infinite's more ambiguous ending with the idea of infinite universes, several mysteries that fans could make interpretations on, as well as the parallels between Bioshock and Infinite. Now it was written in a way that instead of making these parallel storylines, they are just one big, long, and convoluted story that I think is more gratifying for fans of the original Bioshock in the overall scheme than those that preferred Infinite's story and characters like myself.

 

[Lunzio]

I played and beat it, but I honestly need it spelled out for me to really parse it all.

Story beats felt shoehorned at times, but I was giddy at all the Fink and Suchong environments.

 

[Bedameister]

It was really well put together, but it does make me upset they decided to connect Bioshock with Infinite rather than letting them be their own separate entities.

I thought it was brilliant that they did that. I was hoping there was such connection but they way it turned out now is just insane.

What I didn't really get is who Booker was. How did he get there?

 

[Gartooth]

I thought it was brilliant that they did that. I was hoping there was such connection but they way it turned out now is just insane.

What I didn't really get is who Booker was. How did he get there?

Booker keeps insisting that he isn't real and just a figment of Elizabeth's imagination. My guess? Elizabeth retained some of her powers unconsciously which then manifested as Booker in her mind. She knew what to do because she could see "all the doors" without knowing it, hence Booker guiding her and giving her confidence when she needed it.

 

[sjay1994]

I think this in particular is what is going to cause a lot of us to split on whether or not we like the ending of this DLC. I preferred Infinite's more ambiguous ending with the idea of infinite universes, several mysteries that fans could make interpretations on, as well as the parallels between Bioshock and Infinite. Now it was written in a way that instead of making these parallel storylines, they are just one big, long, and convoluted story that I think is more gratifying for fans of the original Bioshock in the overall scheme than those that preferred Infinite's story and characters like myself.

Yeah, I liked to feel like infinite occured separately from Bioshock, and when you visited rapture in the full game it was more of a nice nod.

Now it feels like infinite has become a prequel to bioshock.

 

[pakkit]

I agree with you, Gartooth. BaS's storyline revolves around uniting two anachronistic universes, and, as one might expect, there are some pretty grand leaps of logic used to make connections. What's worse, is that some of the more obvious connections (hey, Songbird and Big Daddies are very similar! Eve is the same as Salts!) were given exposition in the narrative to further drill it into the viewer's skull. Compared to Infinite, where it coyly acknowledged that parallels exist but left it up to the reader to determine where they are, this version is much more expository and, as a consequence, less interesting. In fact, as Alec's review for RPS said, the plot as a whole does give off a bit of a fan-fic vibe. You can tell that Irrational specifically was addressing open-ended plot holes, and that type of revision detracts from the actual narrative. For me, the refinement of Daisy's character as a martyr is then used to set up Elizabeth's final sacrifice, and in that context it makes sense. I still wanted more characterization for Daisy... And the final turn of the game doesn't have quite the emotional impact it's gunning for. For one, I still don't know why we are supposed to care about Sally. Why Sally, y'all.

Finally, I appreciate the stealth gameplay in the Bioshock world. It's methodical pace makes sense given how we are expected to slowly traverse and study our surroundings. But the completist that seeks out all the upgrades for vigors is rewarded with INSTAWIN INVISIBILITY that sucks all tension out of the game. Why would a game designer include game breaking mechanics into their game? See also: Dishonored (which I love), Alpha Protocol (which I also love.

And now the sweet. The Bioshock series is one of my most beloved series in all of videogames. The intro to BaS2, in particular, took my breath away, and, even though I had reservations, seeing Rapture envisioned through the Infinite engine had some stunning, expansive results that eclipse many of the settings in the original games. Bioshock was the first FPS to teach me to really appreciate all of my surroundings and to read my environments with the same appreciation and attention that readers give to classic novels. I know my thoughts seem sour (and scatter-brained, definitely that), but on the whole I'm tremendously impressed with the series. Bioshock took a look at a lot of mature themes while still staying true to gaming's violent, testosterone past, and it's this split loyalty that reveals the series as problematic and beloved. All the best to the Irrational crew.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

Tbh, I'm confused how Elizabeth is here in BaS if she is apparently dead? Someone needs to tell me how that worked out :/

 

[Gartooth]

Yeah, I liked to feel like infinite occured separately from Bioshock, and when you visited rapture in the full game it was more of a nice nod.

Now it feels like infinite has become a prequel to bioshock.

Which is upsetting because before Infinite originally came out, Irrational kept saying how the two are unrelated except for the "Bioshock" name. I was alright with that because then the ending of Infinite surprised and excited us by offering a bigger look at the Bioshock universe as a whole. However, here we find out that Infinite really was just a prequel. I was also under the impression with Burial at Sea prior to this episode, that Rapture in the DLC was an alternate one along with alternate Bookers and Elizabeth, and the idea would be that it would play off the "infinite universes" idea from the ending of Infinite rather than deeply intertwining both Infinite and Bioshock 1. It just serves to make the exciting idea of the multiverse in Infinite's ending that much more smaller, confined, and definitive according to this ending. Hence, I even wonder if Irrational considers the original ending for Infinite canon anymore.

This is mostly due to the matter that in the original ending, it was implied that by killing Booker at the baptism, Elizabeth caused a paradox that destroyed every "Comstock" reality and essentially reset the universe. This isn't entirely the case though because Elizabeth herself didn't "reset" like the others did. (even though this was implied when the screen cut to black on the final note) The after the credits scene further supported this, because it has Booker back in his office going to check on Anna, which I interpreted as Booker's universe being reset with him and Anna living uninterrupted by Comstock's meddling. Elizabeth mentions in the DLC something about a cycle of killing between Booker, Comstock, herself, etc. and didn't want Sally to follow the same path. So basically Booker's sacrifice at the end of Infinite wasn't him doing good by his long lost daughter and giving her her life back, but instead just a giant revenge scheme? Because that was also the path Elizabeth took in Episode 1, before trying to atone for it in Episode 2. However, aside from the questionable ordeal with the furnace she didn't really do any harm to Sally, that was mostly Rapture Comstock gambling her off in the first place. So she dies to save one girl while at the same time giving the main villain of Bioshock 1 everything he needs to control Jack, and this was all the culmination of her being strung along the entire time. Her grand purpose in the overall scheme of things was to be a tragic and tortured puppet that "redeems" herself by saving one kid? (I interpret the Lutece's convincing Daisy to get Elizabeth to kill her as their endgame to turn Elizabeth into a murderer to kill all Comstock's, in other words they manipulated her and Booker the entire time including through Burial at Sea episode 1)

Sorry for the long winded rant. Guess I'm just annoyed how Infinite's original ending got retroactively changed with this DLC in a direction that I don't think suited the plot of the original game.

 

[littlegrasshopper]

I just beat it and was in awe the entire time I was playing it. I loved every bit of it. My hat is off to Irrational Games for making this one last DLC, which in my opinion is really effing good.

 

[Bedameister]

I seemed to have missed a secret achievement. Anyone got all of those and can tell me what I've missed?

Also I'm a litte confused about Elizabeth.

In Infinite Elizabeth killed all Comstocks (Bookers) which should also mean that all Elizabeths died (that's what I thought after Infinite)
Then in Episode 1 there is this one Comstock which got away because Elizabeth died as a child which also made sense to me. Back then I was already confused where this Elizabeth came from but I was okay with it.
Now even the last Comstock is dead (I also get that) and that one Elizabeth from EP1 is also dead. Where does the other Elizabeth now come from. Are there still infinite Elizabeths left out there? And after this Elizabeth now also sacrifices herself, was she the last one? Is now everything over or are there still infinite possibilites.
And I didn't really get the thing with her little finger

 

[Fuchsdh]

So... I don't know what to say about this right now. For certain I can say that it was extremely well put together and there are several great moments in the game, in particular the opening which was masterfully done. My beef hinges mostly with the plot and resolution to the game.

Spoiler

I find the retcons to Daisy Fitzroy's character out of place, and I have no idea why the Lutece's set her up in that manner nor did it really explain why. In the grand scheme of things it just seemed like it was inconsequential to the DLC's overall narrative.

It's out of place and it frankly pissed me off. It's nothing more than Irrational caving to some criticism. They couldn't stick by their guns, so they compromised the story and its characters.

 

[foxtrot3d]

Hey guys this is the SPOILER THREAD, stop tagging stuff.

I'm just gonna repost what I said in the official thread:

I just beat the game and I'm left severely underwhelmed by the story, to me it answered all the wrong questions while opening up or failing to answer all the important ones.

Now, I don't wanna write a long write up as to why I think the story was just all wrong but I'll just write a few of my thoughts. My main problem with the story is again this reliance on Rapture, I don't care about Rapture, I've been to Rapture, I played for hours inside Rapture, I killed Ryan and Atlas, and I escaped Rapture. I really don't need to know anything else about Rapture, so returning to Rapture again to answer questions I never really asked for is just pointless. I never cared how Big Daddies got developed, I never cared how Atlas got the pass phrase from Suchong, none of that was important to the original BioShock. Infinite offered a world of infinite possibilities, of infinite worlds, and yet once again we are dragged back to Rapture to fill in minor holes to the plot that nobody really needed answers to.

But, then at the same time Burial at Sea fails to answer really any of the big questions left from Infinite, like where the fuck is Booker? Is he back in his own timeline with Elizabeth? Where is Elizabeth? Why was she hunting Comstock's? What exactly are the Lutece's doing? How many Elizabeth's are there? Is she the last one? Why does this one not have her pinky cut off? I could go on. The point is these are the questions we all cared about not piecing together the obvious plot of how Atlas managed to rise up and take down Ryan, we all know that is going to happen why do we need to know the exact details of how, and why does it all have to rely so heavily on Elizabeth and Columbia's influence?

*sigh*

I really hope Levine is done with BioShock I want something new from him, something less like LOST and more like System Shock 2.

 

[Gartooth]

Hey guys this is the SPOILER THREAD, stop tagging stuff.

I'm probably going to go back and untag my first post. Only reason was because it was pretty much the first one in the thread to go into the plot in great depth so at the time I figured it would be best to tag just in case anyone else was messing in the spoiler thread prior.

Anyway, just to recap I really did enjoy this DLC and think it was a great sendoff for the series. (Problems with story/ending aside) I just wish that the plot of the DLC didn't muck with the stories of the first game and Infinite as a result, because I think it really brings them both down. Infinite especially because the old ending has now lost a ton of its power and I preferred Elizabeth's ambiguous fate in the original compared to what we got here which was honestly far too over the top and brutal for her.

 

[Fuchsdh]

I'm probably going to go back and untag my first post. Only reason was because it was pretty much the first one in the thread to go into the plot in great depth so at the time I figured it would be best to tag just in case anyone else was messing in the spoiler thread prior.

Anyway, just to recap I really did enjoy this DLC and think it was a great sendoff for the series. (Problems with story/ending aside) I just wish that the plot of the DLC didn't muck with the stories of the first game and Infinite as a result, because I think it really brings them both down. Infinite especially because the old ending has now lost a ton of its power and I preferred Elizabeth's ambiguous fate in the original compared to what we got here which was honestly far too over the top and brutal for her.

Amen.

The game has the same problem Back to the Future II does--you retread the original, muck up the story, and drag both down. There was nothing gained from tying the two games so closely, as Gartooth pointed out. In regards to foxtrot3d, I did find it interesting how Big Daddies were made, et al--but we already learned that info in the last two games. This just comes along and flips the table with a "noooope!" because "twisty windy timey wimey". A more complicated story doesn't mean a better one, and this game is living proof.

It's a shame, because combat-wise this was closer to what I always wanted from the series. It just came with this massive raspberry of an ending.

There was never going to be a satisfactory answer for a lot of Infinite's questions because they hinge on a nebulous use of quantum theory to handwave. But man, talk about piling bull on bull.

I seemed to have missed a secret achievement. Anyone got all of those and can tell me what I've missed?

Also I'm a litte confused about Elizabeth.

Spoiler

In Infinite Elizabeth killed all Comstocks (Bookers) which should also mean that all Elizabeths died (that's what I thought after Infinite)
Then in Episode 1 there is this one Comstock which got away because Elizabeth died as a child which also made sense to me. Back then I was already confused where this Elizabeth came from but I was okay with it.
Now even the last Comstock is dead (I also get that) and that one Elizabeth from EP1 is also dead. Where does the other Elizabeth now come from. Are there still infinite Elizabeths left out there? And after this Elizabeth now also sacrifices herself, was she the last one? Is now everything over or are there still infinite possibilites.
And I didn't really get the thing with her little finger

I honestly don't think there's any way for it to make sense.

As presented in the base game, there is no grandfather paradox, exactly--you can kill your father (Comstock and Bookers) and the change "sticks" as opposed to the thinking that if you killed your father, you'd never be born and thus couldn't kill your father. Infinite instead seems to treat this like "explosion". The only timelines that didn't lead to the ones where Booker sells his kid to Comstock and Comstock raises Elizabeth would be the one where Booker doesn't gamble away his kid, so everything else is nuked and that one becomes the only surviving timeline.

I suppose you can rationalize by that theory why the Comstock of BaS Ep 1 exists--his Elizabeth died, so could never become the grown woman who ends up drowning him and cancelling things out. Alternatively, he traveled forward into time to Rapture (or did he? The game's not entirely clear if he appeared in 1959 or wound up in Rapture from topside after waiting the 30-odd years, but the latter makes a little more sense.)

Quantum magic is the only real solution for Elizabeth being there too--that is, the Elizabeth who would have grown up into the tear-weilding omniscient person we meet--she shouldn't exist by the "blowing up the multiverse" presented in the base game. But even with that handwaving, BaS doesn't appear to make sense (it might when smarter heads than I crack at it or I digest the details more). Elizabeth has to feel bad about leaving behind Sally to go to the twins and go back to the time period as a "mere mortal". But with whatever sketchy timeline we have, she would have had to die immediately after Booker/Comstock in Ep 1. So either it's a Bioshock Infinite situation where we've skipped a bunch of attempts previously (or just the one where she died, setting up the game), or it doesn't make any sense.

 

[Deku Tree]

Tags without looking ... For later ...

 

[GavinUK86]

I loved every second of it. They explained 99% of things I wanted to be explained and I was hoping it would tie into the original Bioshock somehow but how they did it blew my mind. Some things are still a bit dicey in my head but I'm chalking that up to how long it's been since I finished Infinite and especially Bioshock. Coming from someone who read the prequel novel which was all about Fontaine's war on New Years, this DLC was just a perfect 10/10 for me. Maybe, if my mushy brain is up to it, I could help someone understand bits and pieces they might not be connecting. Not saying I fully understand everything, like I said, but I'd like to think I have a pretty good grasp on stuff at this point.

 

[pakkit]

Yeah, my hope at this point is that someone will be able to better convey the significance of this timeline and how it gels with BI and Bioshock, because my current understanding relies on a whole lot of mysticism. Starting my second playthrough, I did enjoy the nod where dreamy Paris becomes noirish and reveals a large poster about pre-frontal lobotomies.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Yeah, my hope at this point is that someone will be able to better convey the significance of this timeline and how it gels with BI and Bioshock, because my current understanding relies on a whole lot of mysticism. Starting my second playthrough, I did enjoy the nod where dreamy Paris becomes noirish and reveals a large poster about pre-frontal lobotomies.

That whole opening is so over the top and out-Disneying Disney you're just waiting for the hammer to fall, but it still happens pretty satisfactorily.

 

[Gartooth]

Oh man... I haven't even talked about the lobotomy scene yet. Bioshock has gone some far places, but that probably takes the cake for the most horrific moment in the entire series for me.

I honestly question who thought that scene was a good idea in its current state, it goes on for too damn long to get its point across and is redundant given how we have witnessed Elizabeth now get tortured physically and mentally several several times over the course of Infinite and BaS Ep2.

 

[GavinUK86]

Oh man... I haven't even talked about the lobotomy scene yet. Bioshock has gone some far places, but that probably takes the cake for the most horrific moment in the entire series for me.

I honestly question who thought that scene was a good idea in its current state, it goes on for too damn long to get its point across and is redundant given how we have witnessed Elizabeth now get tortured physically and mentally several several times over the course of Infinite and BaS Ep2.

The guy on Rock, Paper, Shotgun talked about how he had to pause and walk away and thought it was way too horrific and they only did it because Elizabeth is a woman. I don't know what to say to that. It's ridiculous. I had zero issues with that scene. It got the point across. Atlas/Fontaine is/was a dick. Simple as that really. I really don't like this trend of over-analysing video games as of late. It's beyond silly.

 

[bodyofanamerican]

Oh man... I haven't even talked about the lobotomy scene yet. Bioshock has gone some far places, but that probably takes the cake for the most horrific moment in the entire series for me.

I honestly question who thought that scene was a good idea in its current state, it goes on for too damn long to get its point across and is redundant given how we have witnessed Elizabeth now get tortured physically and mentally several several times over the course of Infinite and BaS Ep2.

Yep, no clue what they were thinking. Wow.

 

[Brainfreeze]

The guy on Rock, Paper, Shotgun talked about how he had to pause and walk away and thought it was way too horrific and they only did it because Elizabeth is a woman. I don't know what to say to that. It's ridiculous. I had zero issues with that scene. It got the point across. Atlas/Fontaine is/was a dick. Simple as that really. I really don't like this trend of over-analysing video games as of late. It's beyond silly.

I would agree with this. I mean, yeah, it was violent and brutal and tough to watch if you're someone who cares about Elizabeth...but that's the entire point. You're supposed to feel those things. And they certainly aren't out of line for a Bioshock game. Personally I loved it.

 

[A-V-B]

Yep, no clue what they were thinking. Wow.

I just think it didn't have much of a point. What'd the scene serve?

 

[foxtrot3d]

I just think it didn't have much of a point. What'd the scene serve?

Cheap tension and shock value?

 

[Gartooth]

The guy on Rock, Paper, Shotgun talked about how he had to pause and walk away and thought it was way too horrific and they only did it because Elizabeth is a woman. I don't know what to say to that. It's ridiculous. I had zero issues with that scene. It got the point across. Atlas/Fontaine is/was a dick. Simple as that really. I really don't like this trend of over-analysing video games as of late. It's beyond silly.

That isn't my stance on it at all. I'm saying that the scene is gross and unnecessary in a 5 hour long DLC when we already previously witnessed her die at the hands of a Big Daddy, recall how her head got severed as a baby in an alternate timeline, and finally watch Atlas murder her at the very end. The game beats the player over the head with the fact that Atlas is a monster as displayed numerous times outside that specific scene, and it was all done for the sake of shock factor, and to convince Elizabeth to find for Atlas "Would you kindly?". I'm not saying the scene shouldn't have been done, but rather I think it wasn't executed maturely in its current state.

 

[A-V-B]

Cheap tension and shock value?

Hey, man, that like, doesn't count, you know!

 

[Brainfreeze]

I never cared how Big Daddies got developed, I never cared how Atlas got the pass phrase from Suchong, none of that was important to the original BioShock. Infinite offered a world of infinite possibilities, of infinite worlds, and yet once again we are dragged back to Rapture to fill in minor holes to the plot that nobody really needed answers to.

I don't think the issue is that they answered these questions. Personally, as a HUGE fan of Bioshock one I though all of these things were super cool to witness. It just made the world of Bioshock one that much more interesting.

The issue is, as you mentioned, that it does a disservice to the ending of Bioshock Infinite and all of the potential that that represented. I think, as someone mentioned earlier, opinions on this one are going to be fairly split between people who enjoy Bioshock one more and people who enjoyed Bioshock Infinite more. This DLC clearly seems to favor one over the other.

But, then at the same time Burial at Sea fails to answer really any of the big questions left from Infinite, like where the fuck is Booker? Is he back in his own timeline with Elizabeth? Where is Elizabeth? Why was she hunting Comstock's? What exactly are the Lutece's doing? How many Elizabeth's are there? Is she the last one? Why does this one not have her pinky cut off?

Comstock-Booker is Dead. Booker-Booker is back in his original timeline before Comstock and the Lutece's interfered.

Elizabeth is now dead. Only Anna remains.

She was hunting the Comstocks out of revenge, closure, protection for others.

What are the Lutece's doing at which point?

There are no more Elizabeths.

Yes, she is the last one.

She doesn't have her pinky cut off because in this game she is no longer in her god-form. She's not split between universes, she's whole.

Elizabeth mentions in the DLC something about a cycle of killing between Booker, Comstock, herself, etc. and didn't want Sally to follow the same path. So basically Booker's sacrifice at the end of Infinite wasn't him doing good by his long lost daughter and giving her her life back, but instead just a giant revenge scheme?

No, Booker's journey was about exactly that. Burial at Sea is about Elizabeth's journey post-Infinite. It's an epilouge for infinite and a prolouge for Bioshock one. It doesn't devalue anything that happened in the original game, as far as I can tell.

So she dies to save one girl while at the same time giving the main villain of Bioshock 1 everything he needs to control Jack, and this was all the culmination of her being strung along the entire time. Her grand purpose in the overall scheme of things was to be a tragic and tortured puppet that "redeems" herself by saving one kid? (I interpret the Lutece's convincing Daisy to get Elizabeth to kill her as their endgame to turn Elizabeth into a murderer to kill all Comstock's, in other words they manipulated her and Booker the entire time including through Burial at Sea episode 1)

Again, not quite. She sacrificed herself as a form of redemption. She saw the future, she knew that she would die, but she also knew that her actions would bring Jack to Rapture. Jack went on to save every single little sister. It wasn't just about Sally. Elizabeth mentions in Fink's quarters how it's a pathetic attempt because even if she saves Sally "She'd be lucky to put a dent in the whole operation." But the omniscient version of Elizabeth that chose to come back to Rapture knew better, she knew that her death wouldn't be in vain. She essentially came to the same finale as her father: sacrifice for the life of a (or, in this case, many) little girls.

The Lutece's talking to Daisy wasn't related to this Elizabeth journey, but was actually a way to justify her actions that many people took trouble with in the main Infinite campaign. The Lutece's manipulated Booker (and apparently Daisy as well) in the main game in order to end Comstock and save Elizabeth, but their influence ended there. Daisy died in order to give Elizabeth the strength she needed to get to Comstock. Daisy so his end as a victory for her movement, so she decided to become a martyr for the cause. It's hamfisted, but it's not as bad as you're making it sound.

 

[Brainfreeze]

That isn't my stance on it at all. I'm saying that the scene is gross and unnecessary in a 5 hour long DLC when we already previously witnessed her die at the hands of a Big Daddy, recall how her head got severed as a baby in an alternate timeline, and finally watch Atlas murder her at the very end. The game beats the player over the head with the fact that Atlas is a monster as displayed numerous times outside that specific scene, and it was all done for the sake of shock factor, and to convince Elizabeth to find for Atlas "Would you kindly?". I'm not saying the scene shouldn't have been done, but rather I think it wasn't executed maturely in its current state.

I just have to disagree here. I found it incredibly tense. It wasn't just shock value, it was important for the story. Elizabeth didn't care about herself enough to give in to Atlas, but seeing the innocent little girl in the same position was enough to get her moving. I think people are too sensitive to these sorts of brutal scenes in video games; every time one crops up people call it out for being nothing but shock value. This wasn't "No Russian." This was more like something from Silence of the Lambs of God Father. Playing it down just to try and avoid offending people would have diminished its value.

Besides, I don't see why constantly beating down on the character is a bad thing. It shows just how strong and capable she is, and how much she cares for the little sisters that she's willing to go through with all of this. I'm not sure what would've been a more "mature" way of handling this but please, if you have any suggestions please do tell. Because I just don't understand these controversies half the time (not to call you out specifically. I don't think you're turning it into a controversy. But your point of view seems to line up with many who will/often do)

 

[Gartooth]

No, Booker's journey was about exactly that. Burial at Sea is about Elizabeth's journey post-Infinite. It's an epilouge for infinite and a prolouge for Bioshock one. It doesn't devalue anything that happened in the original game, as far as I can tell.



Again, not quite. She sacrificed herself as a form of redemption. She saw the future, she knew that she would die, but she also knew that her actions would bring Jack to Rapture. Jack went on to save every single little sister. It wasn't just about Sally. Elizabeth mentions in Fink's quarters how it's a pathetic attempt because even if she saves Sally "She'd be lucky to put a dent in the whole operation." But the omniscient version of Elizabeth that chose to come back to Rapture knew better, she knew that her death wouldn't be in vain. She essentially came to the same finale as her father: sacrifice for the life of a (or, in this case, many) little girls.

The Lutece's talking to Daisy wasn't related to this Elizabeth journey, but was actually a way to justify her actions that many people took trouble with in the main Infinite campaign. The Lutece's manipulated Booker (and apparently Daisy as well) in the main game in order to end Comstock and save Elizabeth, but their influence ended there. Daisy died in order to give Elizabeth the strength she needed to get to Comstock. Daisy so his end as a victory for her movement, so she decided to become a martyr for the cause. It's hamfisted, but it's not as bad as you're making it sound.

I guess I should let the storyline of this campaign rest a little on my mind before running my mouth again, but that was just my gut reaction at both Infinite's final act and Elizabeth's as well. I will say that I appreciate your input and it has given me new perspective on some of the plot.

That post was basically me ranting that I felt as if Infinite's entire arc was put in vain if all it accomplished was putting into motion the events of the first game.

 

[GavinUK86]

-- snip snip --

I pretty much agree with everything you said. What I gathered from the dialogue was for the Lutece's to be able to bring another Elizabeth into Rapture they needed to collapse every Elizabeth in existence into one being. So yeah, to make her whole (if you want to quote Dead Space).

Mind..... blown.....

 

[Brainfreeze]

Tbh, I'm confused how Elizabeth is here in BaS if she is apparently dead? Someone needs to tell me how that worked out :/

This is the one point where I'm a little confused too. My understanding at the end was that after Elizabeth killed what we would come to find was the final Comstock at the end of Episode 1 she sort of got transported in between dimensions with the Luteces since she no longer existed, or at least not as Elizabeth. Hence she lost her powers and regained her pinky. But, because she had seen the future she requested that the Luteces' drop her off in Rapture so she could save Sally as opposed to going back home or too Paris, where they thought they'd be taking her.

Of course, since Elizabeth was shown to have been killed at the beginning of this game than all of that can't be quite right. So maybe she just died and, since at that time she was a multi-dimensional being it was her death, and not Comstock's, that sent her between dimensions? I'm not sure. I think I understand everything else that happened but since this one part is alluding me it's very possible that I misunderstood some other pieces as well without realizing it. If anyone has a better explanation for this I'd be more than willing to hear it. I just finished the DLC a little while ago and right now I'm exhausted and the story's still a little jumbled in my mind. I'll definitely be trying to piece everything together over the next couple of days.

Anyone that has gotten to as far as I am now, can help me out?

Spoiler

I can't seem to find the hair sample I have to gather from Fink's lab when you return to Columbia. I've searched everywhere and I can't go any further without it I have moved on through the handy man assembly line to the point where I can't go any further

You've probably found it by now, but just use the up arrow key when you get lost. Points you in the right direction. I actually had to use it a few times during this DLC as well despite never using it in the main game. The conveyance is certainly a little off here. I even missed some audio diaries despite seeing what I though was every single nook of every single cranny.

 

[Brainfreeze]

I pretty much agree with everything you said. What I gathered from the dialogue was for the Lutece's to be able to bring another Elizabeth into Rapture they needed to collapse every Elizabeth in existence into one being. So yeah, to make her whole (if you want to quote Dead Space).

Mind..... blown.....

Hmm. This is a very good way of putting it. Makes it a lot clearer for me.

I still don't quite get what the significance of the dead Liz at the beginning was though. Was that necessary in order to collapse this last Elizabeth in with the other's? Because in my mind the final Comstock's death should have been enough to do that. I don't know man.

 

[Gartooth]

I just have to disagree here. I found it incredibly tense. It wasn't just shock value, it was important for the story. Elizabeth didn't care about herself enough to give in to Atlas, but seeing the innocent little girl in the same position was enough to get her moving. I think people are too sensitive to these sorts of brutal scenes in video games; every time one crops up people call it out for being nothing but shock value. This wasn't "No Russian." This was more like something from Silence of the Lambs of God Father. Playing it down just to try and avoid offending people would have diminished its value.

Besides, I don't see why constantly beating down on the character is a bad thing. It shows just how strong and capable she is, and how much she cares for the little sisters that she's willing to go through with all of this. I'm not sure what would've been a more "mature" way of handling this but please, if you have any suggestions please do tell. Because I just don't understand these controversies half the time (not to call you out specifically. I don't think you're turning it into a controversy. But your point of view seems to line up with many who will/often do)

Yeah, I wasn't trying to instigate controversy and I hate it when I see it happen to any game that would otherwise try to tackle a mature scene. The reason this particular scene got to me when no other scene so far in the Bioshock series did, is that it felt almost repetitive in nature given how violence directed at Elizabeth felt like standard routine and the game was just pissing on her at that point. (Hence I felt like it was done for the sake of purely shock factor) If we didn't already witness loads of horrible shit happen to her, I probably wouldn't have felt as annoyed as I did watching it, but perhaps that was Irrational's intent all along considering Elizabeth herself at this point was like "just get it over with already".

 

[GavinUK86]

This is the one point where I'm a little confused too. My understanding at the end was that after Elizabeth killed what we would come to find was the final Comstock at the end of Episode 1 she sort of got transported in between dimensions with the Luteces since she no longer existed, or at least not as Elizabeth. Hence she lost her powers and regained her pinky. But, because she had seen the future she requested that the Luteces' drop her off in Rapture so she could save Sally as opposed to going back home or too Paris, where they thought they'd be taking her.

Of course, since Elizabeth was shown to have been killed at the beginning of this game than all of that can't be quite right. So maybe she just died and, since at that time she was a multi-dimensional being it was her death, and not Comstock's, that sent her between dimensions? I'm not sure. I think I understand everything else that happened but since this one part is alluding me it's very possible that I misunderstood some other pieces as well without realizing it. If anyone has a better explanation for this I'd be more than willing to hear it. I just finished the DLC a little while ago and right now I'm exhausted and the story's still a little jumbled in my mind. I'll definitely be trying to piece everything together over the next couple of days.

I have to admit, the beginning is probably the most confusing of the lot. I think the Elizabeth we're playing as is a different one from Episode One and Infinite proper. When the Lutece's collapsed all versions of her into this Rapture universe they made sure she had the correct memories (eventually) to handle the situation.

 

[A-V-B]

I have to admit, the beginning is probably the most confusing of the lot. I think the Elizabeth we're playing as is a different one from Episode One and Infinite proper. When the Lutece's collapsed all versions of her into this Rapture universe they made sure she had the correct memories (eventually) to handle the situation.

Where in the world does this Lutece stuff even come from?