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[Varna]

I thought there was an audio diary that explained they were due to splicing.

It was just something carried over from System Shock. In that game they explained it by calling it a glitch in the Cyber rig.

Bioshock had it's own explanation for the same thing.

I was a bit crushed that Infinite didn't have it's own... I was looking forward to their explanation! I guess they just want as much distance as possible now from SS.

 

[Tummi Gummi]

Yes, "Genetic Memory" carried via the ADAM was Bioshock's explanation iirc. Bioshock 2 was originally supposed to have several flashback-esque scenes based on the same concept.

I'm fairly sure it was justified in System Shock 2 as merely a "cybernetic glitch" (though the source of that explanation is obviously dubious). I don't think they put a lot of thought into the in-universe explanation since psychic powers already exist in the System Shock setting.

 

[Grisby]

Getting near the end of my 1999 run. I think my favorite narrative part of the game has to be Comstock house. The tortured 'other' Elizabeth stuff is some of the story's best bits. Having to dodge the Boys of Silence, since they'll destroy you, is some good tension as well.

On another note I have to say it's a shame one of my favorite animations from this trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9WXUA4WIbg (at about 39 secs) was no where to be found. I know I know, a minor complaint but I still wanted to mention it. I thought it was neat because you rarely see another AI character act out in fear.

 

[PBalfredo]

It was just something carried over from System Shock. In that game they explained it by calling it a glitch in the Cyber rig.

Bioshock had it's own explanation for the same thing.

I was a bit crushed that Infinite didn't have it's own... I was looking forward to their explanation! I guess they just want as much distance as possible now from SS.

The ghosts were more thematically appropriate to Bioshock and SS2, since those games occur after Shit Got Real (tm) and the majority of the population is already dead. Doesn't make too much sense for "ghosts" to be running around in Columbia during it's hayday, before or even during the revolution.

 

[Salamando]

The ghosts were more thematically appropriate to Bioshock and SS2, since those games occur after Shit Got Real (tm) and the majority of the population is already dead. Doesn't make too much sense for "ghosts" to be running around in Columbia during it's hayday, before or even during the revolution.

Infinite had tears, which served much the same purpose. Only difference was no ghost figure actually acting out the event.

 

[Varna]

The ghosts were more thematically appropriate to Bioshock and SS2, since those games occur after Shit Got Real (tm) and the majority of the population is already dead. Doesn't make too much sense for "ghosts" to be running around in Columbia during it's hayday, before or even during the revolution.

Bioshock Infinite had a perfect explanation for these visions.

Tears.

When Elizabeth is with you every so often you catch a glimpse of other worlds. They could provide the same information previous games did.

EDIT: Beaten by a minute!

 

[PBalfredo]

Oh, I agree that Infinite would have an excellent explanation for the ghosts, absolutely. But the fact we refer to these instances as "ghosts" is telling of how they were used in previous games. When you first encounter them, they appear to be the spirits of the dead. They mainly served to give atmosphere to the post-disaster settings (the audio logs, I feel, were the primary story telling device and the ghosts were secondary in that regard). That would seem out of place in the middle of Columbia's fairground festivities.

 

[Goldrush]

I kinda follows the story, but confused about Comstock's motivation. In particular, I can't think of any reason why he wants to see New York burn and why he wants a blood heir other than the fact that he sees it in a future. The only explanation I could think of is that Comstock is genuinely religious and the archangel wasn't just a metaphor for the dimensional machine. Even then, it opens up a big hole about who was telling Comstock that he should sacrifice his life so that his heir will rain fire down on NY.

 

[bs000]

I went through most of the game not realizing Possession could be used on vending machines for money. For some reason I thought controlling machines was a separate vigor. I think what threw me off was that they call it a sample and thought you lose it after using it on the first machine, similar to how you don't get to keep Bucking Bronco from that carnival game.

 

[LiK]

I went through most of the game not realizing Possession could be used on vending machines for money. For some reason I thought controlling machines was a separate vigor. I think what threw me off was that they call it a sample and thought you lose it after using it on the first machine, similar to how you don't get to keep Bucking Bronco from that carnival game.

you're not alone. i didn't know that either. but they give you very little money for the amount of Vigor you use on them. only worth useful if you needed a few bucks to buy something.

 

[Neiteio]

My second playthrough photo safari continues, with Shantytown, on through the Songbird attack. For previous installments, go HERE and HERE and HERE (my favorite).

I am so smitten with the bottle designs for Charge and Undertow. Irrational Games, make these available to purchase!

 

[Neiteio]

Also... Separated at birth?

 

[LiK]

i was going through the LE Guide and there's nothing special for any of the regular enemies you fight. most are all referred to as simply Founders or Vox Populi. It doesn't matter what they're wearing or why they have glowing eyes. Just a costume thing, I guess. A lil disappointed.

 

[The Librarian]

Cool pictures, Neiteio.

Hey now, Dax, let's not say things we can't take back.

Come at me! I think the Uncharted games are serviceable movies but are okay to mediocre games. Whenever I played an Uncharted game I would turn the difficulty down to easy (after trying on Normal or Hard) to breeze through the combat. I found most of the encounters in the games are poorly designed and the enemies are boring to fight against (and, at times, could be an exercise in frustration).

 

[Ithil]

Second playthrough photo safari continues: Leaving Soldier's Field, visiting secrets like the hidden Vox room along the way, and heading into Fink Manufacturing, with a focus on signage and unique architectural details.

To see my Hall of Heroes shots, click here.

 

[Dr_Boris_Goltz]

Wow after reading the OP and clearing up the questions I had I'm shocked at how discernible the story is.

It actually falls in line with my personal beliefs on the mechanics of infinite possibilities and constants.

 

[Soundman]

This game could've been a really good episode of Sliders.

 

[DrForester]

Well I beat the game on 1999 mode, which wasn't nearly as satisfying as I had hoped. The jump in difficulty once you get to Lady Comstock is just insane. I pretty much glitched my way through the second two fights. Was able to resist using the dollar bill machine on the last fight so I got the achievement. Took a few tired to beat the last battle, but once I figured out the priorities for Songbird attacks I was able to do it with only one death. and I missed ONE recording somewhere. 79/80....

 

[catapult37]

When Liz asks Booker to kill her rather than let her get recaptured, he asks what "that thing" did to her. I assumed he meant Songbird, but actually maybe he meant the siphon. Anyway, she said it was basically worse than death. What was she referring to?

 

[DrForester]

I figured it was just being locked up. Now that she's experienced the outside world (somewhat) imprisonment is like death.

 

[Trigger]

Anyway, she said it was basically worse than death. What was she referring to?

Being locked away and possibly experimented on. Songbird from her enlightened point of view is less of a friend and more of a warden now.

 

[Jedi2016]

Yeah, just being locked up, I think. Songbird himself seems to have some sort of affection for Elizabeth, I don't think he would ever hurt her directly. She just didn't want to go back.

I'm relieved we never had to actually fight Songbird. I kept dreading how difficult that fight would be, I assumed he would be the last boss or something. Happy with the way they played it.

 

[Red]

I kinda follows the story, but confused about Comstock's motivation. In particular, I can't think of any reason why he wants to see New York burn and why he wants a blood heir other than the fact that he sees it in a future. The only explanation I could think of is that Comstock is genuinely religious and the archangel wasn't just a metaphor for the dimensional machine. Even then, it opens up a big hole about who was telling Comstock that he should sacrifice his life so that his heir will rain fire down on NY.

That's one of the problems i had too. I don't understand what's inciting Comstock other than what he sees in the tears. I guess being a crazy person is reason enough, but I was hoping for more motivation than that.

 

[tiny raptor]

You know what, guys. I'm still confused about the ending. At the Baptism, did Booker kill all versions of himself (Booker and Comstock) or JUST the Comstock path?

 

[The One Who Knocks]

You know what, guys. I'm still confused about the ending. At the Baptism, did Booker kill all versions of himself (Booker and Comstock) or JUST the Comstock path?

Only the Comstock path is erased. Whether she kills all Bookers or the Accept only Bookers (as I think now seems more likely) is ultimately irrelevant since either will only wipe out the Comstock path.

 

[Ithil]

You know what, guys. I'm still confused about the ending. At the Baptism, did Booker kill all versions of himself (Booker and Comstock) or JUST the Comstock path?

The epilogue suggests the paradox has obliterated all versions of the Booker that took the baptism from existence, leaving only a Booker that rejected it.

 

[dc89]

Finished the game this afternoon. What a game, what a piece of storytelling, sheer genius. Loving the OP of this thread too, thank you very much for your effort everyone.

 

[tiny raptor]

Only the Comstock path is erased. Whether she kills all Bookers or the Accept only Bookers (as I think now seems more likely) is ultimately irrelevant since either will only wipe out the Comstock path.

What? Why?

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Yeah, just being locked up, I think. Songbird himself seems to have some sort of affection for Elizabeth, I don't think he would ever hurt her directly. She just didn't want to go back.

I'm relieved we never had to actually fight Songbird. I kept dreading how difficult that fight would be, I assumed he would be the last boss or something. Happy with the way they played it.

Relieved? That could've been an appropriate and amazing boss fight, or even just a chase. Could've involved trying to get back to the siphon using skyrails while it destroys them right behind you. Damn.

 

[The One Who Knocks]

What? Why?

Sorry, I'd much rather not get into this too deeply once more so I'm going to go for a much simplified version (the expanded version is in the original post which you've said you've read and usually this sort of question can run on for multiple posts/pages which I would honestly rather avoid) if you don't mind (but if greater detail is wished for I will continue to try).

Basically, every Booker could only be drowned if a single Comstock could accept the baptism. This part you understand I presume because a single Comstock has to exist for Elizabeth to exist to drown him (because it is only through Comstock's actions that Elizabeth can exist to murder Comstock before any of the chain can occur; a paradox). I hope you can also see why this is a paradox since if you've that part down it makes explaining things much easier but if not the simplified version is because Elizabeth's existence occurs after Booker/Comstock would be dead by her hand. However, Elizabeth drowning every Booker would cancel out itself, because a Booker must accept for Elizabeth to do this at all.

Therefore:
Booker accepting = Paradox where Booker died before accepting. Probability of paradox, and thus acception = 0. If the probability is zero, the timelines/universes never exist.
Booker rejection = Nothing. No paradox. Probability of other action = 0 therefore probability of this action = 1. Probability of 1 is a constant, so it always happened, will happen, and happens. Booker never accepted the baptism, ever, the game's events don't exist, no Booker literally dies in the game's ending.

I don't know if a Venn Diagram version will work better since it's the only thing timeline-like thing not in the original post related to the ending I've seen in the thread and there's no point in repeating the others (better ones) so here:

Each subset occurs after the set it belongs to. The left hand side is what would happen if the game's events could occur and the baptism wasn't a constant. As you can see, if any set of Booker accepting exists, there is a paradox where it is cancelled out. It's only cancelled out by a subset in the acception timelines, no such cancellation originates from the reject timelines. If only the blue set exists, if Booker can only reject (and the baptism is a constant), there isn't anything to cancel it out.

If it's hard to imagine precisely why (since it's a very abstract concept) then just go with only the accept Bookers being drowned since it has the same result and is easier to understand.

EDIT: I hope this makes it somewhat clearer/easier to follow; admittedly I'm sure it is possible to explain why in a more concise format but unfortunately I'm not really able to

 

[tiny raptor]

I understand Elizabeth killing Booker Comstock is a paradox, but after that, I just...my brain did this...

 

[Feep]

Wouldn't the universe eliminating all "reject" possibilities and only leaving "accept" also remove any paradoxes? I mean, Comstock could never go get a daughter, but whatever, the Columbia thing would probably still happen.

 

[The One Who Knocks]

Wouldn't the universe eliminating all "reject" possibilities and only leaving "accept" also remove any paradoxes? I mean, Comstock could never go get a daughter, but whatever, the Columbia thing would probably still happen.

That would seem feasible (but would seemingly contradict the after credits scene) but there's lots of specific events that could remove the paradox:

Murdering the Luteces in every universe as a child.
Comstocks never going sterile.
Anna's maternal grandmothers being murdered before her mother's conception.
Bookers being murdered as a child.
Bookers dying in Wounded Knee.
Songbirds always stopping Bookers.
Old Elizabeths being unable to open the tear.
Bookers always going to Paris with Elizabeths.
Annas always dying in chidbirth instead of her mother.
Bookers always killing themselves.

The main way the writers get around this is through the use of constants and variables (it's also worth noting it's a probability space so only that which has the probability of happening happens in one timeline), so depending on what's a constant and what's a variable certain events may not lead to others. It's possible that the 'constants' in the universes are things that were 'created' to avoid the issue of paradoxes but really, it's not explored too much within the plot of the game. It was also Booker's decision to make this particular paradox (and it required Elizabeth being omnipotent to simultaneously manipulate everything). What other things would lead to we really cannot say.

 

[Salamando]

I've come up with an alternate theory on the ending. Second time through the ending, I paid more attention to exactly when Booker accepted/rejected. He rejected the baptism during what seemed to be the intro. He was "drowned" a few moments later, after the pastor asked him what his new name would be.

What if Booker had multiple points in the baptism where he rejected, and we drowned him the point before "accept" wasn't able to be backed out of? He was conflicted about going through with it to begin with. Drowning Booker after the player-Booker remembers rejecting but before it's impossible to back out allows the post-credits scene to play out, while still eliminating all Comstocks (and some Bookers). In that post-credits scene, that's just the universe resetting a perfectly valid path to a point before any now-non existent paths altered it.

This also melds well with the future being more probability than prophecy. In a strictly accept/reject environment, the universes would split evenly, even if Booker was only 2% sure he wanted to go through with it. Multiple reject points would create many more chances for the "Accept" roll to fail, theoretically creating a number of reject branches in correct proportion. Of course, being on the reject path doesn't guarantee a rejecting, there'd be points where he rerolls and lands on accept once again.

 

[Gamer @ Heart]

1 accept-baptism Booker spawns an infinite number of Comstock.

Think about that for a moment.

I have been reading alot of this thread and it wasnt until this post that it all made much more sense.

The talk of probabilities and everything in the OP only confused me.

Everything with the end was about eliminating that choice completely by getting elizabeth strong enough through the destruction of the cipher and booker's realization through the whole experience to accept it.

I only beat it about 30 minutes ago, and was bouncing so many thoughts in my head until i finally reduced it to that sentence above.

Whew.

 

[razgriz417]

Man I really liked this game, thinking about getting a print/poster, so far these were the best I've found though I can't decide what to get

 

[JackEtc]

My second playthrough photo safari continues, with Shantytown, on through the Songbird attack. For previous installments, go HERE and HERE and HERE (my favorite).

Love these screenshots, I played on my laptop so I didn't have it running well enough to get good looking screens. Saving plenty of yours

I can't wait until you continue more towards the end, there's some sick potential Songbird screenshots (think about the part where he's about to stab you with his claws in particular).

Keep these up!

 

[Red]

I went through most of the game not realizing Possession could be used on vending machines for money. For some reason I thought controlling machines was a separate vigor. I think what threw me off was that they call it a sample and thought you lose it after using it on the first machine, similar to how you don't get to keep Bucking Bronco from that carnival game.

I finished the game without realizing vigors could be combined, or that murder of crows stunned handymen.

 

[MartyStu]

You have not lived until you have killed a handyman with Charge + Shotgun.

Without taking health damage.

 

[Pagusas]

I finished the game without realizing vigors could be combined, or that murder of crows stunned handymen.

what do you mean by combined?

 

[MartyStu]

Just realized that early in the game, that one assassin lady calls Liz Anna...

 

[DatDude]

I would be really curious to see the percentage break down of male to female gamers.

I have a feeling there's alot more female gamers who played Infinite due to Elizabeth.

Kinda would gell with my kingdom hearts theory (which if you ever gone to khinsider, the amount of teenage girls..HOT TEENAGE GIRLS.. who love kingdom hearts is mindblowing) than females like playing video games where there are other core female characters involved.

 

[Salamando]

what do you mean by combined?

If you use certain vigors on enemies while they're already afflicted with another, it can have special effects. For example, Possession + Devil's Kiss = an explodey minion, and Shock Jockey + Undertow = extra damage or something. Weren't for the achievements, I wouldn't know they exist either.

 

[johnnysix]

The clever part of this game's story is the kind of meta commentary it offers on the nature of video games. The first game was basically about player agency and the ability for game designers to shuffle you down a tunnel and make you think you have choice when you don't. This game opens that up and kind of comments on the way video games do present choice in games and how player choice is accounted for and what part chance plays or the illusion of chance and randomness. My major issue with the game, is one I have with video games in general as a story telling medium and that is that the best way to leverage the advantages of the medium is through player self discovery and agency, however, this is also that one area that presents a huge risk to the narrative. In my play through, I definitely went "off the rails" and missed a few key audio logs which made the following audio logs quite confusing. I know an major element of confusion is part of the structure of the narrative and is required for the reveal at the end, however, it then made the ending more confusing than it needed to be. The catch 22 with the medium as a story telling method is that if you present the story to me in a linear scripted fashion, then I may as well be watching a movie or reading a book where there is more flexibility in perspective and agency doesn't need to be accounted for. Loved the game, but it does serve to highlight the limitations of the medium with regard to story.

 

[malfcn]

Is the debt a loop of Comstock taking his own child from himself?

 

[Gamer @ Heart]

Is the debt a loop of Comstock taking his own child from himself?

I would imagine most people don't think so. The booker that didn't get a baptism was still a broken man who delved too deep in his vices and went in with rough people. That is all before the loop begins

 

[Shaanyboi]

So... I'm trying to clarify what happened at the end with Booker's death...

So all the versions that went to the baptism were killed by Elizabeth, regardless of whether or not they chose to accept or reject their new identity. Thus, while the 'hero' Booker that chose to reject the baptism was killed, so was the Booker that chose to become Comstock.

And so the Booker we see in the epilogue, I guess he chose to reject the baptism before he ever even went to the hill...


Right?

 

[fmpanda]

So... I'm trying to clarify what happened at the end with Booker's death...

So all the versions that went to the baptism were killed by Elizabeth, regardless of whether or not they chose to accept or reject their new identity. Thus, while the 'hero' Booker that chose to reject the baptism was killed, so was the Booker that chose to become Comstock.

And so the Booker we see in the epilogue, I guess he chose to reject the baptism before he ever even went to the hill...


Right?

From what I gathered, the Booker's that were drowned we all Booker's who chose the baptism, leaving only the Booker's who rejected it.

 

[Gamer @ Heart]

So... I'm trying to clarify what happened at the end with Booker's death...

So all the versions that went to the baptism were killed by Elizabeth, regardless of whether or not they chose to accept or reject their new identity. Thus, while the 'hero' Booker that chose to reject the baptism was killed, so was the Booker that chose to become Comstock.

And so the Booker we see in the epilogue, I guess he chose to reject the baptism before he ever even went to the hill...


Right?

That is what I dont get either. The whole reason our booker dies when he did, before he made the choice, was to eliminate any possibility of the comstock route. At the point he drowns he represents every possibility. Everything we experienced would never be for booker or Elizabeth from that point forward. Since it was right after wounded knee, he never conceived her and that scene at the very very end has absolutely no place. Maybe being a living paradox elizabeth found a loop hole? I would imagine the decision to cut to black before our Elizabeth blinks out of existence was deliberate to set something up.

Before we learn the truth of the multi verse, Elizabeth thinks she is drawing tears out of her will. Maybe the epilogue is an actual example of her succeeding at it?

 

[Messypandas]

Man I really liked this game, thinking about getting a print/poster, so far these were the best I've found though I can't decide what to get

I like the bottom one. Also, can I be naughty and self promote mine a bit.