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[Foggy]

So if I'm understanding this right, racism needs to be re-interpreted as prejudice+power because the implicit equating of African-American on Caucasian American racism with Caucasian American on African-American racism is counter-productive? Is systemic racism then lumped in with that understanding of racism?

Is changing the colloquial understanding of racism easier or more vital than raising awareness of systemic racism as something to recognize? And how systemic racism can make "normal" racism more severe depending on the offending party? It's certainly a provocative approach to the issue, but I'd imagine that's pretty tough to gain traction given the inherent confusion. This is only coming from me as a pragmatic response, not a "you forgot to consult this goofy white dude" response

 

[vikki]

Using some ridiculous form of semantics to justify unacceptable behavior aka it's okay to be a dick to that person of another race because of their race because "I can't be racist".

Ignoring that many factors come into play with that persons very narrow definition of racism, it is just plain stupid to think it's okay to ridicule some because of their race. In no way is it justifiable.

 

[fuzzyset]

Using some ridiculous form of semantics to justify unacceptable behavior aka it's okay to be a dick to that person of another race because of their race because "I can't be racist".

Ignoring that many factors come into play with that persons very narrow definition of racism, it is just plain stupid to think it's okay to ridicule some because of their race. In no way is it justifiable.

You can still be a dick to someone. The point is that if you're white and walk by a guy (what ever race) that says "get outta here cracker!" everyday on your way to work, you can't equate that with the systemic racism in the US. Is he an asshole? Yes. Were you unfairly prejudiced against? Yes. But it's still not the same.

You're looking at it as "redefining racism = black people can be assholes to whomever" when it's really "redefining racism = there's a difference between individuals being jerks to each other and a system designed against an entire group of people."

 

[Bjorka]

So if I'm understanding this right, racism needs to be re-interpreted as prejudice+power because the implicit equating of African-American on Caucasian American racism with Caucasian American on African-American racism is counter-productive? Is systemic racism then lumped in with that understanding of racism?

Is changing the colloquial understanding of racism easier or more vital than raising awareness of systemic racism as something to recognize? And how systemic racism can make "normal" racism more severe depending on the offending party? It's certainly a provocative approach to the issue, but I'd imagine that's pretty tough to gain traction given the inherent confusion. This is only coming from me as a pragmatic response, not a "you forgot to consult this goofy white dude" response

Thank you! It took this many pages for someone to offer a reasoned disagreement with the minority opinion without being self-righteous or degrading. I appreciate that!

You're absolutely right. It's an approach that will never go anywhere. It asks for a level of empathy and understanding of racism that is hard to cultivate unless you live it on a daily basis. In terms of how much effort should be put into promoting it, I don't know. Even if it's not an opinion that has viable legs, I still think it has value and deserves to be heard. In the broader sense, you're right, focusing on educating people specifically about institutional racism would be a more fruitful endeavor.

 

[Lord Thrappleper The 49th]

It's a given. I think something that is always outlined on forums and internet is the negative slant on white people. I think it's fair to say that from most of my upbringing, hispanics and blacks caught a lot of heat but I never personally witnessed as much as fellow hispanics or blacks against white type of comments. I say that as a hispanic myself. That doesn't grant me some kind of immunity but growing up in the SoCal vicinity near Compton and LA county surely has given me thicker skin.

Whilst I agree that maybe some people will experience racism more than others in their lives, I don't agree with that being the rule. It seems that to me, some people are just trying to hide behind statistics so that they can say their unpopular opinion or even play the victim to get sympathy points. As far as I'm concerned, and I believe this should be the rule for everyone; ignorance must be met with force, regardless of age, ethnicity, social class, or gender.
We live in an age where logic and understanding is overcoming the hate and ignorance that has gripped our species since the dawn of it, anyone who would revel in the opinions of the past should be forgotten with it.

 

[Reuenthal]

I always assume that the one arguing that Black people can't be racist is a racist. Which might be less of an assumption and more of a reading of what they are saying and a safe conclusion that follows their words.

 

[striferser]

Dude see Weird Al?

Spoiler

on a serious note, everyone can be racist

 

[dralla]

Wait, so a black person who hates white people is only prejudiced? Is a white person who hates black people also only prejudiced? Or are they racist, because they're white?

Sounds a little racist.

Yes, exactly. White people are in a position of power and can (and have) oppressed blacks. Black people on the other hand do not have that power. Racism is much deeper than simply being prejudice against peoples of certain skin color.

 

[Faiz]

You know it is entirely possible to accept that both definitions are correct based on context. Many dictionaries list both the 'systemic power' and the 'racial prejudice' definitions.

This is just a basic part of language. Words have different meanings based on context.

 

[daycru]

Yes, exactly. White people are in a position of power and can (and have) oppressed blacks. Black people on the other hand do not have that power. Racism is much deeper than simply being prejudice against peoples of certain skin color.

rac·ism noun \ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi-\
: poor treatment of or violence against people because of their race

I'll take Webster over Dr. Johnathan C. Lecture Circuit's sociology textbook.

 

[LuffyZoro]

I was thinking about this a bit. If you take racism to mean structural/institutional predudice, is it possible for any one person to be racist? Wouldn't that mean that a person could only be predudiced in a way that either is or is not in line with the structurally racist society?

EDIT: Which is obviously not to say that white americans have it worse/the same as black americans.

 

[Htown]

An appeal to the dictionary is the new Godwin's Law for race threads.

If you jump into a conversation/debate about an issue as complex as race relations, and all you have to offer is a sixth grade dictionary definition, you might as well stay home.

 

[studyguy]

Man this thread has gone long, didn't expect people to bust out a literal textbook definition of racism and argue it...

 

[Jado]

I've gone back and forth on this and have concluded that any person can experience racism from any other person, regardless of the background of either individual (they may even look and be the same ethnically).

I do, however, think that the level of racism that white people in America experience and complain about is very weak (sometimes laughable) compared to practically any minority group, especially blacks and Latinos. For that reason, it almost deserves its own name because it dilutes or takes away something from the much deeper level of racism that has oppressed and harmed millions of minorities and continues to do so. I guess that's where "racial prejudice" comes in.

 

[Htown]

Man this thread has gone long, didn't expect people to bust out a literal textbook definition of racism and argue it...

It happens in any GAF race thread that goes long enough.

 

[Cagey]

It happens in any GAF race thread that goes long enough.

An appeal to the dictionary is the new Godwin's Law for race threads.

If you jump into a conversation/debate about an issue as complex as race relations, and all you have to offer is a sixth grade dictionary definition, you might as well stay home.

The thread title is, literally, "black people can't be racist?". What conversation did you expect, if not one about the definition of the word?

Lastly, if you're unwilling to acknowledge that one academic definition of racism isn't a settled universal truth as the One True Definition, then you also should refrain from posting. Again, it's not mathematics, where there's a singular objective correct answer to what 2 + 2 equals.

 

[danwarb]

Yes, exactly. White people are in a position of power and can (and have) oppressed blacks. Black people on the other hand do not have that power. Racism is much deeper than simply being prejudice against peoples of certain skin color.

Not all white people are in a position of power. Not all countries/cultures/communities are the same. It makes more sense to talk about racism and institutional racism instead of labelling everyone racist.

 

[pants]

this is silly. The contrast between Robert Mugabe and Nelson Mandela should tell you that black people can obviously be racist.

 

[Kinyou]

An appeal to the dictionary is the new Godwin's Law for race threads.

If you jump into a conversation/debate about an issue as complex as race relations, and all you have to offer is a sixth grade dictionary definition, you might as well stay home.

When people are going on about what the definition of racism is, looking it up on the dictionary seems fair to me

 

[Tacitus_]

Yes, exactly. White people are in a position of power and can (and have) oppressed blacks. Black people on the other hand do not have that power. Racism is much deeper than simply being prejudice against peoples of certain skin color.

This is so US-centric that it would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.

 

[y2dvd]

Anyone can be racist. Certain words you wouldn't think are racist can definitely be seen that way when said with a certain tone. For instance, I knew some black people who took offense to "boy" if it was said with a slight demeaning tone. The girl the OP talked about sounded like she used "nerdy white boy" in a similar fashion.

 

[Blackhead]

I was thinking about this a bit. If you take racism to mean structural/institutional predudice, is it possible for any one person to be racist? Wouldn't that mean that a person could only be predudiced in a way that either is or is not in line with the structurally racist society?

EDIT: Which is obviously not to say that white americans have it worse/the same as black americans.

Well if that one person's prejudice is in line with the racist structure/institution, then that one person is racist...

 

[wildfire]

It happens in any GAF race thread that goes long enough.

Long enough? I'm pretty sure it started on page 2.

 

[Faiz]

Man this thread has gone long, didn't expect people to bust out a literal textbook definition of racism and argue it...

OP itself was about one person arguing the definition.

A dictionary is a reference book of definitions in a given language.

Are race relations more complicated that a single definition? Absolutely. But this thread was about a definition, so pardon us if we refer to a book that codifies definitions of our language.

(Some of which, like I said, also list the 'systemic power' definition).

 

[vas_a_morir]

It happens in any GAF race thread that goes long enough.

This is one of the few threads where I feel it's an appropriate discussion.

 

[sankt-Antonio]

How come that people in the US still think there a races?

Or is it simply a semantic thing?

 

[User 73706]

How come that people in the US still think there a races?

Or is it simply a semantic thing?

Social construct. Not a biological thing.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Racists are people who believe that race exists.

Skin color is not subjective?

 

[pants]

Skin color is not subjective?

Most of us (the rest of the world) identify ethnicity and or communities, social groups, geo origins (where appropriate) etc. Like we wouldn't refer to someone as black, we'd say he's xhosa, koi, zulu and so forth. At least that's what I think he means.

I also think this is why you guys got so super confused when there was that Roma thread and the Irish bloke brought up Travelers (who were white Irish folk).

 

[Devolution]

Skin color is not subjective?

It's pretty subjective when you consider the wide range of people who are mixed but get shunted into "black" because of cultural baggage.

 

[SmokyDave]

To make this discussion simple black people can be racist but their ability to discriminate is pretty damn low.

Fuck me, almost word for word what I was going to post. Any individual can be racist but it does take white skin to effectively discriminate at an institutional level*. I suppose the distinction between racism and racial discrimination has different weight with different people.


*Assuming you're talking about the US / UK, which people usually are in these threads.