• Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!

Blu-Ray / HD-DVD - Unification is dead

Neither side will compromise on the technology, although they both are working talks to have a single format. Which sounds to me like they're working on the studios, consumer electronics companies, and computer manufacturers to get them to commit, or in many cases, swith to a side.


http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/050823/next_generation_dvd.html?.v=2

Sony, Toshiba Don't Agree on DVD Format
Tuesday August 23, 6:50 am ET
By Hiroko Tabuchi, Associated Press Writer
Sony and Toshiba Fail to Agree on Unified Format for Next-Generation DVD, Report Says

TOKYO (AP) -- Japanese electronics giants Sony and Toshiba have failed to agree on a unified format for next-generation DVDs, according to a newspaper report Tuesday.

Talks have been suspended indefinitely between a group of companies led by Sony Corp., which supports the Blu-ray format, and the Toshiba Corp.-led bloc, which backs the HD DVD format, Japan's Yomiuri newspaper reported.

Spokesmen from both firms refused to verify the report, each saying they have not ruled out the possibility of further talks. However, both said that the development of products containing their respective DVD formats was already underway.

"Next-generation optical disks that are robust enough to stay relevant for more than 10 years are required to take advantage of high-definition video and high-quality audio, and the 0.1 mm (Blu-ray) disk structure is advantageous in this regard," said Taro Takamine, a Sony spokesman.

Sony's Blu-ray disks have a more sophisticated format and play back 25 GB of data compared with HD DVD's 15, but are more expensive to produce.

The two blocs developed their DVD formats separately, but growing concern about confusion among consumers over the different formats prompted Sony and Toshiba to start negotiations on a unified format earlier this year.

Takamine said while Sony remains open to discussion with the Toshiba bloc, the firm's goal is to agree on a single -- not unified, or jointly developed -- format.

"We have no intention on settling on a compromised format that only plays back 20 GB, for example," Takamine said.

Toshiba spokesman Junko Furuta also acknowledged that a unified format did not look likely for the time being.

"We have doubts as to whether the Blu-ray format is a viable technology in terms of production cost," she said. "We're also not convinced that consumers would need to store so much data on disks, especially now that internal harddrives are more popular."

Furuta also said the more sophisticated Blu-ray disks would be harder to adopt for use in laptop computers, as well as in car navigation systems, also popular in Japan.


Both sides are already developing products that feature the respective DVD formats. Toshiba plans to roll out HD DVD players by the end of this year, while Sony's popular game console PlayStation 3, which will play Blu-ray disks, is due out in spring 2006.

Major entertainment companies are also split in their support of the two formats. Walt Disney and 20th Century Fox support the Blu-ray format, while Toshiba has won the backing of companies like Warner Brothers and Universal Pictures.
 
"We have doubts as to whether the Blu-ray format is a viable technology in terms of production cost," she said. "We're also not convinced that consumers would need to store so much data on disks, especially now that internal harddrives are more popular."

First sentence.. ok that's a potentially plausible reason. Second sentence? Uh... less potential.
 
HD-DVD is dead in the water. What's the point in unification, then?


Toshiba spokesman Junko Furuta also acknowledged that a unified format did not look likely for the time being.

"We have doubts as to whether the Blu-ray format is a viable technology in terms of production cost," she said. "We're also not convinced that consumers would need to store so much data on disks, especially now that internal harddrives are more popular."

Pure, unadultered bollocks.
 
Consider the well-documented history of data storage, Toshiba has obviously reached the point of utter deperation that precedes the final death-throws.

Don't worry, it'll all be over soon ...
 
That statement from the HD-DVD camp is really quite pathetic. The manufacturing cost argument has lost any traction it ever even had, and I think we all see the foolishness about the "too much space" issue.
 
almokla said:
I want my $20 Movie on the best medium = Blue-ray
:lol :lol :lol :lol

if you expect to be able to pick up HD movies for the same cost as a DVD, you're going to be in for a rude surprise.

Ruzbeh said:
Just wait for HVD. Please. :(

seconded.
 
Just wait for HVD. Please.

It would be nice, but it's also not realistic. If you wait for the next best thing, you'll be waiting forever. In the case of HVD, I'm under the impression the earliest it can realistically make it out is 2007 - and the would be with limited support. 2008 is more plausable.

If we wait, who's to say there won't be a better tech on the horizon by then? One that is again, only 2 or so years out?
 
if you expect to be able to pick up HD movies for the same cost as a DVD, you're going to be in for a rude surprise.

Not immediately, but once 'blockbuster' DVD releases start to lag - we'll see similar pricing.
 
Onix said:
It would be nice, but it's also not realistic. If you wait for the next best thing, you'll be waiting forever. In the case of HVD, I'm under the impression the earliest it can realistically make it out is 2007 - and the would be with limited support. 2008 is more plausable.

If we wait, who's to say there won't be a better tech on the horizon by then? One that is again, only 2 or so years out?
Yeah, but HVD is such a huge jump. Blu-ray and HD-DVD simply isn't good enough, IMO. Well... maybe 50GB Blu-ray is acceptable... but sooner or later I want HVD because it uses something entirely new and stuff.
 
100GB BluRay has already been demonstrated.

Is that good enough? Well it depends on your intended use. For media storage and backing up, probably not once more and more HD content is available for practical use. For single movies, I would think so.

I think we're going to see a divide this time around ... the de facto consumer movie format will not be the de facto PC storage format. At least, not in the long run. I'm thinking copying movies is going to NOT be as simple (or widespread) this time out, so there's no reason for the media to make headway in PCs.
 
Onix said:
100GB BluRay has already been demonstrated.

Is that good enough? Well it depends on your intended use. For media storage and backing up, probably not once more and more HD content is available for practical use. For single movies, I would think so.

I think we're going to see a divide this time around ... the de facto consumer movie format will not be the de facto PC storage format. At least, not in the long run. I'm thinking copying movies is going to NOT be as simple (or widespread) this time out, so there's no reason for the media to make headway in PCs.
Hmmm. Ok. Blu-ray for the win. I want Sony to be doomed real bad... but I want some new technology even badder.
 
Ruzbeh said:
Yeah, but HVD is such a huge jump. Blu-ray and HD-DVD simply isn't good enough, IMO. Well... maybe 50GB Blu-ray is acceptable... but sooner or later I want HVD because it uses something entirely new and stuff.

Please do some research into HVD. It's simply a name with technology in a lab right now from a consumer standpoint. It's the ultimate in vaporware. It takes YEARS for a technology to become commercially viable and it seems that only large corporations will be using it for several years.

(This article speculates 2009 - http://www.techworld.com/storage/features/index.cfm?featureid=1632 )

BTW, Blu-Ray is already been tested to both 100GB & 200GB of data (the latter in the lab, the former on an actual production process)
 
Keep in mind, also, that blu-ray is essentially the same technology as CDs and DVDs, just using a finer laser. HVD is a truly different format, and as such provides much greater capacity. I think that's what gets the "wait for HVD" calls (plus the fact that studios want to push these formats mostly for DRM reasons than anything else ...)
 
Onix said:
100GB BluRay has already been demonstrated.

Is that good enough? Well it depends on your intended use. For media storage and backing up, probably not once more and more HD content is available for practical use. For single movies, I would think so.

I think we're going to see a divide this time around ... the de facto consumer movie format will not be the de facto PC storage format. At least, not in the long run. I'm thinking copying movies is going to NOT be as simple (or widespread) this time out, so there's no reason for the media to make headway in PCs.

Blu-Ray was designed from the start to be a true successor to DVD, both from a data storage format as well as it's movie standards. Do you expect people to have two removable drives in their PC's? Because DELL, HP, & Apple are all onboard with Blu-Ray.
 
Unless Blu-ray suddenly becomes backwards compatible with DVD, it can bite me. I have hundreds of DVDs.
I really think HD-DVD is going to win in the marketplace anyway simply because it says "HD-DVD" right on it, and is backwards compatible out of the box. To joe average consumer, these 2 things will mean a lot. Having worked in retail for some time, I can assure you that Joe Avg. DOES know enough to ask about backwards compatibility.
 
Much like lesser CD technology has been able to coexist alongside DVD for years now, there's no reason to think that Blu-Ray/HD-DVD couldn't coexist with HVD. And DVD. And CD.

No need to "Wait for HVD"


Edit: meelk, Blu-Ray is as backward compatible with DVD as HD-DVD is.
 
meelk said:
Unless Blu-ray suddenly becomes backwards compatible with DVD, it can bite me. I have hundreds of DVDs.
I really think HD-DVD is going to win in the marketplace anyway simply because it says "HD-DVD" right on it, and is backwards compatible out of the box. To joe average consumer, these 2 things will mean a lot. Having worked in retail for some time, I can assure you that Joe Avg. DOES know enough to ask about backwards compatibility.


What?!?!?!? :lol It IS backward compatible with DVDs.
 
meelk said:
Unless Blu-ray suddenly becomes backwards compatible with DVD, it can bite me. I have hundreds of DVDs.
I really think HD-DVD is going to win in the marketplace anyway simply because it says "HD-DVD" right on it, and is backwards compatible out of the box. To joe average consumer, these 2 things will mean a lot. Having worked in retail for some time, I can assure you that Joe Avg. DOES know enough to ask about backwards compatibility.

The idiot argument rears it's head again! Please have some clue as to what the standard supports before you try and make an argument next time.
 
sonycowboy said:
The idiot argument rears it's head again! Please have some clue as to what the standard supports before you try and make an argument next time.

You know it seems to be a common misconception though, could be an issue in the future with the less tech savvy (read: idiots) trying to determine which is the better format.
 
sonycowboy said:
The idiot argument rears it's head again! Please have some clue as to what the standard supports before you try and make an argument next time.
What kind of a shitty arrogant reply was that? How about someone actually informs him of what you people know, Mr Bigshot, or people will continue asking "stupid" questions.
 
Nerevar said:
:lol :lol :lol :lol

if you expect to be able to pick up HD movies for the same cost as a DVD, you're going to be in for a rude surprise.


then I'll just wait until its price goes down.. I won't be buying an HDTV anytime soon, so I don't care that much
 
HD-DVD / Blu-Ray, they're still discs. I believe cartridges will have the future again, just not sometime soon. SD is going in the right direction but still doesn't provide nearly enough storage-space and are still quite expensive.
 
Apenheul said:
HD-DVD / Blu-Ray, they're still discs. I believe cartridges will have the future again, just not sometime soon. SD is going in the right direction but still doesn't provide nearly enough storage-space and are still quite expensive.
Optical discs, yeah. They used solid-state stuff in Star Trek, by the way. Solid-state such seems so much better, but currently it can't hold much data and it's too expensive.
 
Ruzbeh said:
What kind of a shitty arrogant reply was that? How about someone actually informs him of what you people know, Mr Bigshot, or people will continue asking "stupid" questions.

Are you new here? Since when are shitty arrogant replies not valid for uninformed posts? I'll admit it was a bit rude, but we've gone over it a million times, along with "WTF are people buying UMD movies?" and "The only reason the PS2 sells so much is because half of them break" and "Xbox only has Halo".

IMO, there's an continous ongoing dialog here at GAF and if you're going to rail against one of the continuous dialogs, you should a) know what you're talking about or b) be prepared to face the consequences.
 
xabre said:
You know it seems to be a common misconception though, could be an issue in the future with the less tech savvy (read: idiots) trying to determine which is the better format.
No one is selling product yet though. If anyone fails to communicate that when there's actually boxes on the shelf then, yeah, they'll have a big problem.
 
Ruzbeh said:
What kind of a shitty arrogant reply was that? How about someone actually informs him of what you people know, Mr Bigshot, or people will continue asking "stupid" questions.

I'll take his arrogant reply over meelk's nonsensical, retarded, FUD-inducing, uninformed, BS post anyday.
 
I think all of those companies should just stick with DVDs for now and concentrate all their efforts into making optical harddrives a reality. :D
 
They dont know if people need that much space...I know it seems retarded but in THIS CASE we are talking about removable media. There may be a shift soon in what exactly removable media is, basically discs may go away entirely. Just like not many people decided they needed a 1gb floppy disc, massive flash memory drives/cards may negate the need for a disc form of storage. I see em around now the little 256mb usb ...thingies i guess you can call em drives the densities will only get better. I still have to say the comment is a bit ahead of its time, I dont think cd media will last that much longer with flash memory going the way it is right now. But it will be VERY relavent in the consumer electronics segment for another generation in the very least. Might as well get all you can.
 
meelk said:
Since when? The original spec never called for backwards compatibility that I remember.
Technically, the "original specs" of BOTH HD-DVD and Blu-Ray aren't natively backward compatible. Drive optics that support Blu-Ray and HD-DVD can't be used to support DVD/CD - a second head is needed in both specs to do that.
 
xabre said:
And how much support does HVD have amongst the wider consumer electronic and entertainment industries?

Pretty much every major consumer electronics company has actually invested pretty heavily in the technology, as a matter of fact.

HVD consortium press release

Toshiba invests heavily in Optiware (makers of HVD tech)

nice overview of the tech, companies involved, and Sony's involvement

As you can see, it's hardly a flash in the pan. At the very least it's expected to become the de facto standard for professional applications that require large amounts of storage, and hopefully it will enter the consumer marketplace sometime around 2007 at an expected price range of about $3000 (which is realistically only 1 year after the introduction of HD-DVD or Blu-Ray).
 
Culex said:
I'll take his arrogant reply over meelk's nonsensical, retarded, FUD-inducing, uninformed, BS post anyday.

Despite the different type of lasers used, Blu-ray products can easily be made backwards compatible through the use of a BD/DVD/CD compatible optical pickup and allow playback of CDs and DVDs.

http://www.blu-ray.com/info/

I'm right, any way you slice it. The original spec never called for backwards compatibility. Its amazing the pathetic list of names you decided to call me on an internet message board though. Did it make you feel like a big man?
 
DonasaurusRex said:
They dont know if people need that much space...I know it seems retarded but in THIS CASE we are talking about removable media. There may be a shift soon in what exactly removable media is, basically discs may go away entirely. Just like not many people decided they needed a 1gb floppy disc, massive flash memory drives/cards may negate the need for a disc form of storage. I see em around now the little 256mb usb ...thingies i guess you can call em drives the densities will only get better. I still have to say the comment is a bit ahead of its time, I dont think cd media will last that much longer with flash memory going the way it is right now. But it will be VERY relavent in the consumer electronics segment for another generation in the very least. Might as well get all you can.

Well USB drives have the hurdle of being security risks, so many company's that have security concerns are not allowing them... as for CD media going away? Well let's see we started with CD's, which are now dirt cheap... we've moved on to DVD RW media which is becoming more and more in vouge(hell we have camcorders that write directly to DVD's now), and you think that a large format won't come in to demand?

Respectfully I disagree.
 
meelk said:
Despite the different type of lasers used, Blu-ray products can easily be made backwards compatible through the use of a BD/DVD/CD compatible optical pickup and allow playback of CDs and DVDs.

http://www.blu-ray.com/info/

I'm right, any way you slice it. The original spec never called for backwards compatibility. Its amazing the pathetic list of names you decided to call me on an internet message board though. Did it make you feel like a big man?

How are you right? The players ARE backward compatiple. Hell, even the quote you just spewed out says that.
 
Culex said:
How are you right? The players ARE backward compatiple. Hell, even the quote you just spewed out says that.

They are backwards compatible when made to be, but its not an inherent benefit of the technology, you have to add to the unit to get that functionality. It seems pretty clear to me. Why do you go back to meaningless insults, it seems to be where your skills lie.
 
meelk said:
They are backwards compatible when made to be, but its not an inherent benefit of the technology, you have to add to the unit to get that functionality. It seems pretty clear to me. Why do you go back to meaningless insults, it seems to be where your skills lie.

Unless Blu-ray suddenly becomes backwards compatible with DVD, it can bite me

...
 
Culex said:

Being that you can MAKE it backwards compatible, I have no problem with that part of the technology now, but I still dont feel it will fare as well in the marketplace with joe average, who will look and see "HD-DVD" stamped on another unit and not have to wonder what it is. Blu-ray will have to be explained to anyone wanting to buy a unit, its that simple.
 
meelk said:
Being that you can MAKE it backwards compatible, I have no problem with that part of the technology now, but I still dont feel it will fare as well in the marketplace with joe average, who will look and see "HD-DVD" stamped on another unit and not have to wonder what it is. Blu-ray will have to be explained to anyone wanting to buy a unit, its that simple.

Wired News

Will a Blu-ray player or PC drive be able to read DVDs and CDs?

The Blu-ray standard is designed to be compatible with existing DVDs and CDs. So far, according to the Blu-ray Disc Association, LG, Panasonic, Philips, Samsung and Sony have developed Blu-ray players that will work with DVDs and CDs.

*Ahem*
 
DarienA said:
Well USB drives have the hurdle of being security risks, so many company's that have security concerns are not allowing them... as for CD media going away? Well let's see we started with CD's, which are now dirt cheap... we've moved on to DVD RW media which is becoming more and more in vouge(hell we have camcorders that write directly to DVD's now), and you think that a large format won't come in to demand?

Respectfully I disagree.

I never said that it wont come into demand, i said the format we choose will most likely be the last cd format period for most platforms, considering how long cd's were a viable storage format that aint saying much that could be 15 years. Actually all I said was his comments are way to far sighted, far sighted because HE COULD be right IF some other form of storage, flash mem for example, was primed and ready to replace the disc as removable storage media, it is not. So I repectfully dont know where you got that idea that i said there wouldnt be any demand.
 
ALL(well not all :lol) Blu-Ray and HD-DVD players would be backward compatible with DVDs. Why is that so hard to understand? :lol


Will Blu-ray support playback of DVDs?

Yes, several leading consumer electronics companies (including Sony, Panasonic, Philips, Samsung and LG) have already demonstrated products that can read/write CDs, DVDs and Blu-ray discs using a BD/DVD/CD compatible optical head, so you don't have to worry about your existing DVD collection becoming obsolete. Although it's up to each manufacturer to decide if they want to make their products backwards compatible with DVD, the format is far too popular to not be supported. The Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) expects every Blu-ray Disc device to be backward compatible with CDs and DVDs.

Source: http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/#2.4
 
Top Bottom