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[Hazaro]

We have a Culligan filter on our tap. I bottled it in reclaimed glass bottles and keep it in a perfectly chilled 46-degree wine refrigerator. Perfect taste without the waste.

I do this is a thermos, but want to get one of those good plastic ones.

Culligan is nice and cheap.

$15 on amazon

 

[KHarvey16]

:lol Yeah well that may be, except nobody is pouring vitamin tablets into my mouth.

And the issue is really about USE of fluoride, not abuse (which would put people in hospital, not to mention they wouldn't be able to drink that much water)

Where's the next strawman?

Strawman? You referred to fluoride as a poison and, for some reason, not vitamins. I told you they are both poisons if taken in excess. And just like vitamins, if taken properly there isn't a problem, no matter how much you wish that wasn't true.

 

[KHarvey16]

I only mentioned that because of your assertion that one would have to drink an obscene amount of tap water in order to consume enough fluoride to be dangerous. But if the fluoride accumulates over time, isn't that what we're doing?

That assumes fluoride absorbed into the body can contribute to an overdose. Why do you make that assumption?

 

[replicashooter]

i used a compound of almond, spearmint and peppermint botanical oils for brushing.

This compound you mention, from whence does one obtain such?

 

[Price Dalton]

Strawman? You referred to fluoride as a poison and, for some reason, not vitamins. I told you they are both poisons if taken in excess. And just like vitamins, if taken properly there isn't a problem, no matter how much you wish that wasn't true.

It's apparently not an effective "vitamin" for kids.

Courtesy of the ADA's own research: http://jada.ada.org/cgi/content/abstract/139/11/1457

Don't you think we might want to reevaluate exposing our kids to a compound that doesn't even help them, especially when they're at their most vulnerable?

 

[NotWii]

Strawman? You referred to fluoride as a poison and, for some reason, not vitamins. I told you they are both poisons if taken in excess. And just like vitamins, if taken properly there isn't a problem, no matter how much you wish that wasn't true.

The vitamins have a poisonous effect when abused
Where as fluoride is a poison when used AND/OR abused, and these studies say it causes harm even in small diluted doses. I think that warrants concern.

This one was a well crafted strawman, but they burn all the same :lol

 

[Price Dalton]

That assumes fluoride absorbed into the body can contribute to an overdose. Why do you make that assumption?

Why do you make the assumption that it merely lies dormant and innocuous? It just seems odd that people are okay with a strange compound steadily collecting in their bodies - a compound that, with enough of it, is officially classified as a poison.

I just think it's safer to avoid, is all. It's unnecessary, and there are conflicting studies, so why force it on everyone?

Edit: I realize that we just differ on this. It's unlikely to change. Thanks for the good discussion, though, and for keeping it civil. For your own benefit, I'd urge you to consider more natural, proven ways to avoid tooth decay. It's worked for me, and it worked for thousands of years.

(of course, I'm willing to continue the discussion :lol )

 

[KHarvey16]

It's apparently not an effective "vitamin" for kids.

Courtesy of the ADA's own research: http://jada.ada.org/cgi/content/abstract/139/11/1457

Don't you think we might want to reevaluate exposing our kids to a compound that doesn't even help them, especially when they're at their most vulnerable?

I already mentioned fluorosis. It can develop when children under 5 or 6 ingest some amount of fluoride. Mild cases have no functional effect on teeth at all.

 

[KHarvey16]

The vitamins have a poisonous effect when abused
Where as fluoride is a poison when used AND/OR abused, and these studies say it causes harm even in small diluted doses. I think that warrants concern.

This one was a well crafted strawman, but they burn all the same :lol

Wow, you're dense. Your assertion that fluoride is dangerous whether it's abused or not is the very subject of this discussion. When I make a point that demonstrates my position IT'S NOT A STRAWMAN.

Your inability to engage in dialogue speaks volumes as to how you come to the conclusions you do.

 

[Price Dalton]

I already mentioned fluorosis. It can develop when children under 5 or 6 ingest some amount of fluoride. Mild cases have no functional effect on teeth at all.

I guess I just take that as a sign that maybe it's not such a good thing (even "mild cases" shouldn't be happening).

When you couple that with the studies of non-fluoridated European countries who had lowered rates of tooth decay, I'd like the option to opt out of the whole thing.

 

[KHarvey16]

Why do you make the assumption that it merely lies dormant and innocuous? It just seems odd that people are okay with a strange compound steadily collecting in their bodies - a compound that, with enough of it, is officially classified as a poison.

I just think it's safer to avoid, is all. It's unnecessary, and there are conflicting studies, so why force it on everyone?

Edit: I realize that we just differ on this. It's unlikely to change. Thanks for the good discussion, though, and for keeping it civil. For your own benefit, I'd urge you to consider more natural, proven ways to avoid tooth decay. It's worked for me, and it worked for thousands of years.

(of course, I'm willing to continue the discussion :lol )

Well, the assumption is based on math. To achieve a lethal dose under your premise, assuming a 50% absorption rate, you'd have to drink 8 ounces of fluoridated water a day for like 70 years. The fact I can even consider that a possibility(and really, it's not that unreasonable I don't think) tells me it's not an issue. If it were we'd see deaths from over doses.

Don't take the existence of conflicting studies as evidence of some controversy. There's a number of papers written about how evolution is silly and the existence of a 10th planet that is gonna rip apart the earth. The important part is not if they exist, but if they're valid.

 

[jakershaker]

From skeptoid regarding flouride:

Today we're going to wrap our big juicy lips around the kitchen faucet, turn on the valve, and fill our bodies with a poisonous chemical placed in our water by the government: fluoride.

Most people understand that fluoridation of water means that fluoride is added by the local municipal water supplier, and that's generally correct. What most people don't know is that in some cases, fluoridation means removing excess fluoride that occurs naturally in the water supply. Fluoride is a natural component of groundwater, and it occurs naturally everywhere in the world, in varying amounts. The process of fluoridation is to adjust the fluoride content of the water to the most healthful level.

So how did fluoridation become a normal part of municipal water supply? It all goes back to an early 20th century dentist named Dr. Frederick McKay, who practiced dentistry in Colorado, and noticed that a lot of his patients seemed to have brown teeth. In Texas, brown teeth were so prevalent that they were simply called "Texas Teeth". Dr. McKay spent 30 years investigating the cause. Why? Because it also turned out that people with Texas Teeth also had extremely low levels of dental decay. If you had brown teeth, you were only 1/3 as likely to have cavities.

Finally, in 1931, it was determined that naturally occurring fluoride in the local drinking water was responsible for both the discoloration and the lack of decay. Texas and Colorado had extremely high levels of natural fluoride, causing the discoloration, a condition now known as dental fluorosis, which is harmless if a tad unattractive. Years of research and testing in different cities and states, conducted by the National Health Service, determined that one part per million was the ideal proportion, giving the same protection from decay, and avoiding the dental fluorosis. Ever since then, it has been the standard practice to regulate fluoride levels in municipal water supplies to one part per million. There has been broad scientific and medical consensus for decades that one part per million of fluoride is best for health, and exactly zero rigorously conducted scientific trials that have indicated any sign of danger. For all practical purposes, it is an over-and-done-with issue.

And yet, like so many advances in science or medicine, fluoridation is criticized by a small yet vocal fringe group. There is absolutely an anti-fluoridation lobby in this country. Their process is to flood the mass media with as many claims as they can invent: Claims like fluoridation causes cancer or other illnesses; that insufficient research has been done or that there is "scientific controversy" surrounding fluoridation; that fluoride is a dangerous chemical poison; that fluoridation has been banned in Europe; that it eliminates your freedom of choice; or any of a dozen other baseless and untrue statements intended to alarm and frighten the public. Alarming the public is not hard to do. There are many communities in the United States where voters have been compelled to ban fluoridation by this widespread misinformation campaign.

Let's turn our eye onto one such community, Arcata, an idyllic coastal hamlet in northern California, that recently won this battle after a divisive and painful fight in the newspapers and in city hall. A principal champion of the science behind fluoridation is Kevin Hoover, editor of the Arcata Eye newspaper. In answering the flood of anti-fluoridation scare tactics, Hoover said:

There are no known victims. If there was a problem with municipal fluoridation, wouldn't we have at least a few people who showed some signs of harm after 44 years? All the anti-fluoride people could say was that the victims are "undiagnosed," but not why. They produced no victims, just lots of dubious statistics and horror stories with no provenance.

Measure W to ban fluoridation was carefully crafted by the anti-fluoridation lobby to simply require FDA approval of anything added to Arcata's water supply, which sounds reasonable and sounds like a good idea, and a layperson otherwise uninformed would be likely to vote for it. The catch is that the Food & Drug Administration has nothing whatsoever to do with municipal water supplies, and so of course FDA approval would never happen, by law. Measure W was essentially a devious, deceitful trick intended to further the anti-fluoridation lobby's agenda at the expense of the dental health of Arcata's children. Generally, it's this same tactic that has been responsible for most anti-fluoridation measures that have passed in the United States.

How else does the anti-fluoridation lobby go about spreading their misinformation? Generally they distribute an eight page pamphlet written by Dr. John Yiamouyiannis, the grandfather of anti-fluoridation activism. Dr. Yiamouyiannis was a naturopath who rejected modern medicine, and was the principal originator of the claim that fluoridation causes cancer. He raised his family with an emphasis on a fluoride-free diet to avoid cancer. And, as I'm sure you've guessed, Dr. Yiamouyiannis died of cancer in 2000, which he had refused to treat in accordance with his naturopathic philosophy. His type of cancer has a 95% 5-year survival rate, when properly treated.

Most other experts cited by activists are people like Dr. Hugo Theorell, who did indeed oppose fluoridation in the early days. What they don't tell you is that Dr. Theorell changed his mind and became a supporter after the research was published. They'll often cite Swedish Nobel Prize winner Arvid Carlsson, known for his work with dopamine. He's the only known Nobel Prize winner to oppose fluoridation, but the activists multiply him and frequently say that "dozens" or "many" Nobel Prize winners oppose it. When you can only find one guy who opposes something, and his work is in a completely different field anyway, that's a pretty sad commentary on your position. It's also a case of the exception proving the rule. There are always a few contrarian scientists in every field with opinions opposite from the consensus.

It's also stated that fluoridation adds dangerous levels of lead, arsenic, and mercury to the water. Again, this is simply untrue, and making such a claim is really a form of terrorism. In Arcata, no detectable levels of any of those are found in the fluoridated water. Not just below safe levels, mind you; zero.

You'll also hear the claim that fluoridation has been banned in Europe. This is also completely untrue. In Europe it's more common to fluoridate salt instead of water, thus bringing the same benefits via a different delivery method. As long as you don't look at that fact, the anti-fluoridation people can truthfully say that "Europe rejects fluoridation of water."

Thanks to the efforts of Hoover and all of Arcata's doctors, dentists, educators, social workers and newspapers, Measure W to ban fluoridation was soundly defeated in the election. And it's a good thing, too: according to sources in Arcata, if Measure W had passed, the same people were going to try and ban childhood vaccinations next.

Why do they do it? We can really only speculate. Presumably most of these people are good citizens who love their families and want the best for everyone. I speculate that a lot of them are simply ignorant of the facts, and possibly mistrust of the government or anticorporatism compels them to tend to ignore information from official sources and embrace alternative claims, whatever their source. Hoover gave his own answer to this question in an editorial for the Arcata Eye:

Billion-dollar industries thrive around entirely imaginary “phenomena.” Astrology, numerology, UFOs, alien abductions, Holocaust denial, the face on Mars, “chemtrails,” innumerable media-centered conspiracy theories and fluoride-phobia thrive because they inhabit that magical nexus where paranoia meets superstition – fertile ground for fomenting fear.

The United States Public Health Service estimates that every dollar spent fluoridating water saves fifty dollars in dental expenses. If fluoridation is truly just another conspiracy, then at least this is one that saves money.

Here in Sweden I just laugh at the people buying bottled water for whatever crazy reason they believe justifies it. Sweden has excellent tap water though, but for anyone to ever buy bottled water for reasons beyond marketing the tap water would have to be really really bad.

 

[KHarvey16]

I guess I just take that as a sign that maybe it's not such a good thing (even "mild cases" shouldn't be happening).

When you couple that with the studies of non-fluoridated European countries who had lowered rates of tooth decay, I'd like the option to opt out of the whole thing.

Do you know how fluorosis was discovered? A community in the US had strangely stained teeth that were much more resistant to tooth decay. The fluoride was naturally a part of their water supply. There are many places this is true. The fluoride found there naturally was well above the standards enforced on fluoridated water today.

 

[NotWii]

Wow, you're dense. Your assertion that fluoride is dangerous whether it's abused or not is the very subject of this discussion. When I make a point that demonstrates my position IT'S NOT A STRAWMAN.

That is precisely why I don't know why you went off topic to make the point of saying that vitamin abuse is harmful, when we're not JUST talking about fluoride abuse being harmful, but fluoride use in general.

Way to be on topic strawman :lol
Probably too much fluoride in your water supply XD

 

[KHarvey16]

That is precisely why I don't know why you went off topic to make the point of saying that vitamin abuse is harmful, when we're not JUST talking about fluoride abuse being harmful, but fluoride use in general.

Way to be on topic strawman :lol
Probably too much fluoride in your water supply XD

If avoiding fluoride causes what I see in your posts right now you better believe I'm drinking up. How do you function normally without the ability to actually follow a conversation?

 

[SpoonyBard]

I guess I just take that as a sign that maybe it's not such a good thing (even "mild cases" shouldn't be happening).

When you couple that with the studies of non-fluoridated European countries who had lowered rates of tooth decay, I'd like the option to opt out of the whole thing.

I think in many countries toothpaste and natural flour levels in water are enough and there's no need for additional sources. And fluoridated salt is also used instead of putting that sutff in water in some places.

 

[neorej]

Why do you make the assumption that it merely lies dormant and innocuous? It just seems odd that people are okay with a strange compound steadily collecting in their bodies - a compound that, with enough of it, is officially classified as a poison.

I just think it's safer to avoid, is all. It's unnecessary, and there are conflicting studies, so why force it on everyone?

Edit: I realize that we just differ on this. It's unlikely to change. Thanks for the good discussion, though, and for keeping it civil. For your own benefit, I'd urge you to consider more natural, proven ways to avoid tooth decay. It's worked for me, and it worked for thousands of years.

(of course, I'm willing to continue the discussion :lol )

You should avoid water altogether. Did you know people die from waterpoisoning?

 

[NotWii]

If avoiding fluoride causes what I see in your posts right now you better believe I'm drinking up. How do you function normally without the ability to actually follow a conversation?

I'm not the one who went off topic, I think you're reading what you want to read, and replying to that, rather than my actual posts.

 

[KHarvey16]

I'm not the one who went off topic, I think you're reading what you want to read, and replying to that, rather than my actual posts.

No I think it's quite clear what the issue here is. I made a point you apparently lack the ability to understand. Keep plugging away at it.

 

[Amibguous Cad]

Filtered tap water, best of both worlds

 

[NotWii]

No I think it's quite clear what the issue here is. I made a point you apparently lack the ability to understand. Keep plugging away at it.

The harmful effects of vitamin abuse are not analogous to the harmful effects of fluoride use, it's a strawman argument.
You brought a gorilla to fix a tractor.

Strawman? You referred to fluoride as a poison and, for some reason, not vitamins. I told you they are both poisons if taken in excess. And just like vitamins, if taken properly there isn't a problem, no matter how much you wish that wasn't true.

Not applicable, since we're not talking about 'excesses' which is the only reason you'd have for bringing vitamin abuse into the discussion, I don't deny that vitamin abuse has harmful effects but it has nothing to do with the original discussion of whether fluoride use is harmful.

Anyway, this is turning into a semantics war and I personally don't care for that.

 

[Price Dalton]

From skeptoid regarding flouride:



Here in Sweden I just laugh at the people buying bottled water for whatever crazy reason they believe justifies it. Sweden has excellent tap water though, but for anyone to ever buy bottled water for reasons beyond marketing the tap water would have to be really really bad.

Thanks for the info.

I still consider it to be unnecessary, provided one eats the right things, but I can understand that the average American diet warrants some extra help. Between the water, the toothpaste, the tea, and anything else made with the water, it seems like some of us - especially the kids - might be getting a little too much.

From the Board on Environmental Studies and Toxicology via National Academies Press:

On the basis of information largely derived from histological, chemical, and molecular studies, it is apparent that fluorides have the ability to interfere with the functions of the brain and the body by direct and indirect means. To determine the possible adverse effects of fluoride, additional data from both the experimental and the clinical sciences are needed.

Seems they think more research is needed, too.

 

[cvxfreak]

I switched to a Brita water filter a few weeks ago and am perfectly content. It just pays off to use tap water with a good filter.

 

[Price Dalton]

You should avoid water altogether. Did you know people die from waterpoisoning?

Excellent point. I'm now convinced.

 

[way more]

If avoiding fluoride causes what I see in your posts right now you better believe I'm drinking up. How do you function normally without the ability to actually follow a conversation?

I imagine Wii functions by never being required to follow conversations in real life. I picture him in habitable size Skinner Box created possibly of his own desire, that of a benevolent caretaker, or by donation of the state.

 

[KHarvey16]

The harmful effects of vitamin abuse are not analogous to the harmful effects of fluoride use, it's a strawman argument.
You brought a gorilla to fix a tractor.


Not applicable, since we're not talking about 'excesses' which is the only reason you'd have for bringing vitamin abuse into the discussion, I don't deny that vitamin abuse has harmful effects but it has nothing to do with the original discussion of whether fluoride use is harmful.

Anyway, this is turning into a semantics war and I personally don't care for that.

Holy crap. I was hoping you were just being difficult before, but I think you're serious. I'll try to explain as best I can, without using too many big words.

I don't think fluoride causes problems when used correctly. You do. Sound good? Ok, onward.

You made the claim fluoride is a poison. I said it's a poison in the same way vitamins are. That's called making a point, Wii. Fluoride, like vitamins, is safe when used correctly and harmful when abused. If you describe a substance with those properties as poison then you also must describe vitamins as poison. This is my position. I made a point in support of that position.

It was a simple point and you let it bash against the impenetrable titanium of your skull for a little while but found it useless to try and understand. You decided to repeat a word you saw others use, strawman, and call it a day. The fact you felt this was a reasonable response again tells me all I need to know about the way in which you arrive at your positions.

 

[KHarvey16]

I imagine Wii functions by never being required to follow conversations in real life. I picture him in habitable size Skinner Box created possibly of his own desire, that of a benevolent caretaker, or by donation of the state.

Well, he certainly wouldn't want to be breathed on by us fluoridites .

 

[NotWii]

You made the claim fluoride is a poison. I said it's a poison in the same way vitamins are. That's called making a point, Wii. Fluoride, like vitamins, is safe when used correctly and harmful when abused. If you describe a substance with those properties as poison then you also must describe vitamins as poison. This is my position. I made a point in support of that position.

This is just what you've chosen to believe, but now it makes sense why you decided to bring vitamins into the mix.
It would be nice if you articulated your posts well enough so that people don't have to rely on guesswork or telepathy.

I imagine Wii functions by never being required to follow conversations in real life. I picture him in habitable size Skinner Box created possibly of his own desire, that of a benevolent caretaker, or by donation of the state.

How mature.

 

[jakershaker]

Thanks for the info.

I still consider it to be unnecessary, provided one eats the right things, but I can understand that the average American diet warrants some extra help. Between the water, the toothpaste, the tea, and anything else made with the water, it seems like some of us - especially the kids - might be getting a little too much.

From the Board on Environmental Studies and Toxicology via National Academies Press:



Seems they think more research is needed, too.

Well until lots of trustworthy studies actually proves that fluoride is bad everyone saying so should be looked upon with lots of skepticism. If it was proven to be bad it would not be used, that's kind of how science works.

For now the only real reasons to actually drink anything else then tap water is:

- Taste (which is personal)
- Marketing (which is stupid)
- If you live in an area or country that has water proven to be bad for you (Perhaps time to move as the rest of the place can't be especially good either)

 

[JetSetRadio]

Bottled water.

Afterwards I burn them in my backyard. :lol

 

[Wellington]

Prior to fluoridation, then, people must have had terrible cavities and decay, right? Like, say, for hundreds of thousands of years prior to agriculture?

That's typical of paleolithic fossil dental records. Why didn't we have these tooth problems before?

Did they have soda and all kinds of candy and sugar that people enjoy nowadays that rot their teeth? Probably not.

Further, not long ago I went to the dentist and he asked me if I drank a lot of water when I was a kid. I told him no, I usually drank milk because I would see those commercials with the dude getting super strong as he aged because he drank milk. Apparently I have 'soft teeth' because I did not get enough flouride when I was growing up. Live and learn I guess.

 

[Kipz]

Wii I have just one question. How come after decades of flouride use there are absolutely zero cases of harm from it?

 

[Price Dalton]

Did they have soda and all kinds of candy and sugar that people enjoy nowadays that rot their teeth? Probably not.

Further, not long ago I went to the dentist and he asked me if I drank a lot of water when I was a kid. I told him no, I usually drank milk because I would see those commercials with the dude getting super strong as he aged because he drank milk. Apparently I have 'soft teeth' because I did not get enough flouride when I was growing up. Live and learn I guess.

That was kinda my point.

Eating the diet we evolved to eat is the surest path to dental health. Although since it is a naturally occurring compound, I wonder what levels of fluoride people were getting from natural sources of water.

 

[GCX]

I think it was proven somewhere that tap water over here is actually cleaner than bottled water.

So yeah, taptaptap.

 

[water_wendi]

This compound you mention, from whence does one obtain such?

http://www.oramd.com/

EDIT: i hear Coral White toothpaste is good too but havent had the opportunity to try it.

 

[cloudwalking]

i don't drink much water, but the tap water here (zürich) is just as good as if not better than most bottled water i've had.

even in my apartment building, which is like 200 years old (and probably some of the pipes are old as fuck, too) the tap water is delicious. cold, fresh, tastes great.

the best water, though, comes from the small fountains that are everywhere around here (in parks, next to houses, on farms, by the roadside, along walking paths, at the train stations, etc.)

like well water, they're naturally filtered and always ice cold, even in summer. if i had one close to my house i'd fill up jugs of water from it and only drink that!

 

[Cereal KiIIer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2qydjVbLJk

 

[syllogism]

At least in Finland tap water is "significantly purer" than the average bottled drinking water. I think I saw a similar US study

http://www.insidethebottle.org/finland-study-finds-tap-water-purer-bottled-water

e: http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Health/Story?id=728070&page=1

I mostly drink milk though

 

[BigBlue1974]

This is what does is for me. Used to use Brita, but since I got a fridge with a water/ice dispenser, I'm addicted to ice water.