• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Boxing Discussion

B

Brashnir

Member
lightskintwin said:
So on reflection, I don't think the right guy won, but I don't think it was a robbery either.
Click to expand...

Totally fair. I mean, I had it 115-113, so I wouldn't have complained if it went the other way, but I see the same bellyaching in every boxing thread all over the internet over decisions in close fights as if it was some one-sided affair, which honestly, is a pretty rare thing to happen.

It does happen, but it's a lot more rare once you start scoring the fights yourself by the proper rules.
 
L

lightskintwin

Banned
Pupperbabysassy said:
Let me guess, you're from the Philippines? Lol

I was rooting for Manny in this fight. He looked flat and Horn was doing enough to win early rounds. I actually thought Manny won a close fight. In close fights, this can happen. It's not a robbery like the morons on ESPN were screaming.
Click to expand...

The fallacy is close fights can't have clear winners and they can specifically when you don't have many close rounds. Now whether this one had a clear winner is another story. My gut tells me it did, but then I was scoring the fight while watching the fight live and knowing how activity and being the aggressor throughout the majority of the fight has a tendency to get scored in your favor regardless of effectiveness, I can totally see how Horn won the fight.

I no longer think it was robbery.
 
S

Shadowhelper

Banned
Give me a break. That was a cold stone robbery. Compubox confirms Manny hit him with more punches, more power punches, and a higher percentage connected. Almost no ringside fighters or ones who were watching scored it for Horn. Virtually no one. There are worse robberies every year though, but that was still one.

The only other time Manny was robbed was when Bob Arum was trying to build another star in Timothy Bradley who never really had any fans.

Arum used to be incredibly protective of Manny, typically claiming Manny beat Floyd. This fight? Bob Arum: "Could it have been 7-5 for Manny? Yeah. But you can't argue with the result." #PacHorn. LOL

Against JMM, Arum arranged for the judges to give Manny the win in an event of a decision, so he helped Manny rob JMM in the past in one fight. Well, this time, he arranged for Manny to lose, which is not surprising as Manny as been going around telling everyone this is his last fight with Arum.

And there were rumors of a Floyd rematch and that Manny would sign with another promo company to secure a Floyd rematch, as Floyd and Arum famously don't get a long at all. This is Bob Arums style completely. This is what he does if you try and leave.
 
L

lightskintwin

Banned
Shadowhelper said:
Give me a break. That was a cold stone robbery. Compubox confirms Manny hit him with more punches, more power punches, and a higher percentage connected.

The only other time Manny was robbed was when Bob Arum was trying to build another star in Timothy Bradley who never really had any fans.

Arum used to be incredibly protective of Manny, typically claiming Manny beat Floyd. This fight? Bob Arum: "Could it have been 7-5 for Manny? Yeah. But you can't argue with the result." #PacHorn. LOL

Against JMM, Arum arranged for the judges to give Manny the win in an event of a decision, so he helped Manny rob JMM in the past in one fight. Well, this time, he arranged for Manny to lose, which is not surprising as Manny as been going around telling everyone this is his last fight with Arum.

And there were rumors of a Floyd rematch and that Manny would sign with another promo company to secure a Floyd rematch, as Floyd and Arum famously don't get a long at all. This is Bob Arums style completely. This is what he does if you try and leave.
Click to expand...

weirdalfoil_2322.jpg
 
S

Shadowhelper

Banned
Brashnir said:
It does happen, but it's a lot more rare once you start scoring the fights yourself by the proper rules.
Click to expand...

It probably is rarer than people think, but it happen often enough. The promos company of a top fighter, if its a Top Rank fight, or a Golden Boy fight, the scoring tends to favor their fighter, especially if its a super star or a gold egg.

Look at Canelo. He got handily outboxed and lost to Lara, but the judges still gave it to him. Before Canelo sparked Khan, he was getting outboxed, but was easily up on all the judges scorecards. This is the encapsulation of what happens in boxing, corrupt scoring to protect a golden egg.

Danny Garcia has gotten at least one cold stone robbery against Herrera, and at least one if not two very questionable decisions. Pac got the JMM 3 decision, despite getting outboxed and outlanded.

To see how bad it can get. In the Khan Peterson fight, you can see this on camera, someone who is not a judge actually changes the scoring of one round of another judge, so Peterson can win the fight. He retroactively goes and changes the scoring of a round to ensure Peterson can win. There are many other examples of really atrocious decisions and corrupt scoring. It all starts in the amateurs which are famously corrupt as is the organisation that runs the Olympics, which are infamous for corrupt scoring.

Corruption is just part of the sport. But you can't deny it at all, regardless of what you think of this fight. Not saying this is as obvious and clear as those, but it happens often enough. And Arum and Pac are legit on the outs, at the moment, as Pac appears to be trying to leave Top Rank. Arum didn't let Mikey Garcia fight for 3 years because he tried to leave Top Rank.
 
N

NervousXtian

Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
Pupperbabysassy said:
This is bullshit!! Teddy, just like Lampley and the HBO are out of touch. Horn won that fight. It was really close and could have went either way. I had Manny winning the last two rounds but I would not argued the scoring.
Click to expand...

Agreed.

I had Horn winning 7 rounds.

Round 9 was not 10-8... despite SAS or Teddy going off about it. Teddy looked like he had money on Pac and was upset he lost a bet... he called punches for Manny that didn't land and never, ever gave Horn credit for landing a shot.

Horn arguably swept the last 3 rounds despite almost being TKO'd in the 9th... even then I think it was more that Horn was wobbled a bit and spent than being really really out of it. He came back in the 10th like nothing happened.


See, this is the mistake people make with guys like Manny. He's built up as this huge power puncher, but the truth is.. he hasn't KO'd a guy in YEARS. So what people do is stop watching everything the fighter does against him and is just waiting for that Manny power shot.. and when he throws it they think he won the round... when in reality.. that's not how boxing works.

Also, if you cite CompuBox you lose credibility with me. Compubox is people pushing buttons.. and it was way the fuck off in this fight.
 
L

lightskintwin

Banned
NervousXtian said:
Agreed.

I had Horn winning 7 rounds.

Round 9 was not 10-8... despite SAS or Teddy going off about it. Teddy looked like he had money on Pac and was upset he lost a bet... he called punches for Manny that didn't land and never, ever gave Horn credit for landing a shot.

Horn arguably swept the last 3 rounds despite almost being TKO'd in the 9th... even then I think it was more that Horn was wobbled a bit and spent than being really really out of it. He came back in the 10th like nothing happened.


See, this is the mistake people make with guys like Manny. He's built up as this huge power puncher, but the truth is.. he hasn't KO'd a guy in YEARS. So what people do is stop watching everything the fighter does against him and is just waiting for that Manny power shot.. and when he throws it they think he won the round... when in reality.. that's not how boxing works.

Also, if you cite CompuBox you lose credibility with me. Compubox is people pushing buttons.. and it was way the fuck off in this fight.
Click to expand...

You could've easily scored the 9th round 10-8. I didn't, but I remarked live how close I was to doing it.

CompuBox is a tool, nothing more nothing less. It tells only one aspect of the fight but people make the mistake of it telling the whole fight, and it doesn't. I highly doubt it was way off, because Horn was throwing and missing A LOT. It was OBVIOUS as a viewer.
 
S

Shadowhelper

Banned
When Jeff Horn was asked by Espn how he managed to win the new champion replied: "I don't know. I guess with the crowd behind me and all the support."

Even Jeff Horn can't explain how he won. Honestly, it's not a huge robbery. Not like Pac Bradley 1, where Pacquiao very very clearly beat won. But it was an attempted robbery that lead to a very bad decision if not a robbery.

One of the scorecards was 111-117. If that judge isn't corrupt, can someone explain to me how its possible for a professional judge to come up with the score of 111-117 in favor of Horn? Nonsensical outrageous bullshit scores is the hallmark of corrupt scoring.

Lots of people on the boxing forums were saying now that Pacquiao is saying he is leaving Top Rank that he would absolutely lose a decision to Horn, so that Pac would be forced into a rematch and stay with TR. Well the rematch is going to happen.

Pacquiao should hang them up.
 
L

lightskintwin

Banned
Shadowhelper said:
When Jeff Horn was asked by Espn how he managed to win the new champion replied: "I don't know. I guess with the crowd behind me and all the support."

Even Jeff Horn can't explain how he won. Honestly, it's not a huge robbery. Not like Pac Bradley 1, where Pacquiao very very clearly beat won. But it was an attempted robbery that lead to a very bad decision if not a robbery.

One of the scorecards was 111-117. If that judge isn't corrupt, can someone explain to me how its possible for a professional judge to come up with the score of 111-117 in favor of Horn? Nonsensical outrageous bullshit scores is the hallmark of corrupt scoring.

Lots of people on the boxing forums were saying now that Pacquiao is saying he is leaving Top Rank that he would absolutely lose a decision to Horn, so that Pac would be forced into a rematch and stay with TR. Well the rematch is going to happen.

Pacquiao should hang them up.
Click to expand...

Even if there was more oversight on judges after "bad" scorecards, you would still have bad scorecards because despite there being guidelines on how to judge and what to judge for, it will still be subjective determined by a fallible human being.

Aggression and activity are one of the EASIEST things to give a boxer credit for because it's easiest to see visually, regardless of how effective that aggression was or whether the more active boxer actually landed the more and harder clean punches. It gives the perception of Ring Generalship.

It is more difficult, which a trained judge is there for, to determine out of all the aggression and activity of punches being thrown, which ones are actually missing and landing and which ones you should give credit for.

To be fair to the judges, it is much easier to judge a boxing match at home on TV with a camera angle over top of the boxers with changing camera angles and replays to give almost an omnipotent view of the action.

If you've ever been to a live fight, it's more difficult to score because a lot of variables are there that can bias you such as the angle of the fight your situated to see the action, and the live crowd reaction responding to the action.
 
S

Shadowhelper

Banned
lightskintwin said:
Even if there was more oversight on judges after "bad" scorecards, you would still have bad scorecards because despite there being guidelines on how to judge and what to judge for, it will still be subjective determined by a fallible human being.

Aggression and activity are one of the EASIEST things to give a boxer credit for because it's easiest to see visually, regardless of how effective that aggression was or whether the more active boxer actually landed the more and harder clean punches. It gives the perception of Ring Generalship.

It is more difficult, which a trained judge is there for, to determine out of all the aggression and activity of punches being thrown, which ones are actually missing and landing and which ones you should give credit for.

To be fair to the judges, it is much easier to judge a boxing match at home on TV with a camera angle over top of the boxers with changing camera angles and replays to give almost an omnipotent view of the action.

If you've ever been to a live fight, it's more difficult to score because a lot of variables are there that can bias you such as the angle of the fight your situated to see the action, and the live crowd reaction responding to the action.
Click to expand...

You're completely right about how much more difficult it is to score a fight live as the punches can be super fast, and difficult to score. And yea the crowd definitely plays a huge part in that equation. I think a lot of people call homeboy favorite robberies, but thats part of the problem when it comes to semantics. Yeah the ring generalship does have different mileage on different judges. All true.

Like Ward Kova 1. That I would not call a robbery, just a hometown decision. Kova would've gotten that in Russia. But a lot of people consider that a robbery. You're right, this is probably not a robbery. And yea live fights do come across as very differently.

But I just can't ignore Arum. I don't think its a conspiracy theory at all, imo. It just flat out happens. This is why Floyd left. Why Mikey took so long to leave. You're not your own man at all with Arum. And its just true that GB and TR will get judges they know will score it for their man. I just feel Arums reaction proves its the case here. He aggressively claimed Manny beat Floyd, but seems okay with this decision. Arum just a has a long history of being dirty. And Manny went behind his back and announced a Khan fight on twitter that Arum then proceeded to stop.

But yea, it might be more accurate to call it a bad decision than a robbery, but the context of everything, I do believe it was arranged to have the scorecards be against Manny. Arum did this with Manny for a Bradley rematch, and I think this happened again to Manny.
 
P

perineumlick

Member
There was no reason to score that 9th round 10-8. Manny surged and shook Horn a bit, but the kid rode the wave pretty well. No knockdown, and Horn never looked defenseless. Manny should have won a close fight, but it's telling that a guy like Horn could extend him this way; it's time to hang it up. The elite guys at 140-147 would destroy him now. It's okay, he can go home and lick his wounds over drinks with Duterte.
 
L

lightskintwin

Banned
perineumlick said:
There was no reason to score that 9th round 10-8. Manny surged and shook Horn a bit, but the kid rode the wave pretty well. No knockdown, and Horn never looked defenseless. Manny should have won a close fight, but it's telling that a guy like Horn could extend him this way; it's time to hang it up. The elite guys at 140-147 would destroy him now. It's okay, he can go home and lick his wounds over drinks with Duterte.
Click to expand...

Dominant rounds where you're winning almost every second of that round and rocking the guy without knocking them down can and probably should be scored 10-8 rounds.

The 9th round could've easily been scored 10-8 for Pacquiao. There's nothing controversial about that.

The fact the referee warned Horn after that round that he better show him something or he's going to call the fight, should tell you how vicious the beating Horn took in round 9 was.
 
P

perineumlick

Member
That's your opinion; I've seen guys bounce back from much worse. Manny looked old trying to finish Horn off. I never said that scoring that round 10-8 was controversial, just that I saw no reason for it to be.
 
L

lightskintwin

Banned
perineumlick said:
That's your opinion; I've seen guys bounce back from much worse. Manny looked old trying to finish Horn off. I never said that scoring that round 10-8 was controversial, just that I saw no reason for it to be.
Click to expand...

My point was there was plenty of reasons for scoring it 10-8.

For the record, I didn't; but I was close to doing it and acknowledged as such live in real time in the Pacman Hype thread.
 
S

Shadowhelper

Banned
More often than not that round would've been scored a 10-8 round, all things equal, no favorites an all that, imo. Just up to the judges desecration, but that was definitely one sided enough that it should've at least could've been 10-8, imo.

Of course the very top WW would beat Manny now, but he hasn't been looking to fight them in a long time. Even at his peak, he avoided certain fighters like Paul Williams who even Floyd wasn't interested in fighting. Pac's just going to have a farewell rematch against Horn in philippines I believe.

There is a lot of discussion as to how good Horn actually is at the moment. A lot of people being impressed by him. Obviously someone like Thurman or Spence would straight up destroy him, but I don't even think he could hang with most of the good welters who came up from JWW like Danny, Peterson, or Khan. I think those guys beat him easy. I dunno. I just think less of Horn than a lot of other people. Pac has always been extremely small for welterweight, and now that he has gotten old it shows. 5'5 is just straight up small for Welter.

Anyway, really really looking forward to Garcia Broner and obviously Canelo GGG. 2017 still got life.
 
L

lightskintwin

Banned
Shadowhelper said:
More often than not that round would've been scored a 10-8 round, all things equal, no favorites an all that, imo. Just up to the judges desecration, but that was definitely one sided enough that it should've at least could've been 10-8, imo.

Of course the very top WW would beat Manny now, but he hasn't been looking to fight them in a long time. Even at his peak, he avoided certain fighters like Paul Williams who even Floyd wasn't interested in fighting. Pac's just going to have a farewell rematch against Horn in philippines I believe.

There is a lot of discussion as to how good Horn actually is at the moment. A lot of people being impressed by him. Obviously someone like Thurman or Spence would straight up destroy him, but I don't even think he could hang with most of the good welters who came up from JWW like Danny, Peterson, or Khan. I think those guys beat him easy. I dunno. I just think less of Horn than a lot of other people. Pac has always been extremely small for welterweight, and now that he has gotten old it shows. 5'5 is just straight up small for Welter.

Anyway, really really looking forward to Garcia Broner and obviously Canelo GGG. 2017 still got life.
Click to expand...

Pacquiao nor Mayweather avoided Paul Williams. They had no reason to fight him at that time, when there were way bigger names.
 
S

Shadowhelper

Banned
lightskintwin said:
Pacquiao nor Mayweather avoided Paul Williams. They had no reason to fight him at that time, when there were way bigger names.
Click to expand...

That's true. But those guys frequently fought people who were lesser names. I mean Clottey wasn't a name. Timothy Bradley definitely was not a name. His reunification fight with Alexander was an empty stadium. That fight lost HBO money. Bradley used to have 30 twitter followers.

I think my point is they just completely dismissed PW due to risk reward. He was too dangerous for the reward they would get He did have a welterweight belt the same year Manny fought in the division, so its not like there was no reason to fight. But alright, maybe avoiding isn't right word, but Manny has fought plenty of smaller names.
 
L

lightskintwin

Banned
Shadowhelper said:
That's true. But those guys frequently fought people who were lesser names. I mean Clottey wasn't a name. Timothy Bradley definitely was not a name. His reunification fight with Alexander was an empty stadium. That fight lost HBO money. Bradley used to have 30 twitter followers.

I think my point is they just completely dismissed PW due to risk reward. He was too dangerous for the reward they would get He did have a welterweight belt the same year Manny fought in the division, so its not like there was no reason to fight. But alright, maybe avoiding isn't right word, but Manny has fought plenty of smaller names.
Click to expand...

In Manny's case, you're not considering that Clottey and Bradley being Top Rank fighters and were much easier fights to make, and at that time Arum and Haymon weren't working with each other and Williams was a Haymon fighter.

There are way more variables to it that you're not acknowledging and oversimplifying.
 
S

Shadowhelper

Banned
This is what Teddy Atlas said.

"It’s only one of two things, it’s either incompetence or corruption. When you see 117-111, I don’t think anyone could be that incompetent. I’m sorry. If you know the sport, you watch the sport, you can’t be that incompetent," Atlas was quoted by The Herd Now.

"You see who’s landing clean, who’s just throwing, who’s not landing clean, who almost got knocked out, you can’t be that incompetent. So what else could it be? Corruption. Nothing else. I’m sorry. I love this sport, it’s the greatest sport in the world. It was a great day, a great night back where you guys are. It was great for the fans out there to get it on free TV, brought back to free TV where boxing belongs. It was great! It was great theater. There’s no theater like boxing. Nothing. But the decision stunk."

Not contradicting you lightskintwint, just thought it was interesting that quite a lot of experts also feel this way. I've banged on enough about how Arum cannot be trusted, but this really his is MO. But you are right aggression, controlling the middle of the ring, and the crowd plays a huge role. But that is still quite a big discrepancy.
 
L

lightskintwin

Banned
Shadowhelper said:
This is what Teddy Atlas said.

"It’s only one of two things, it’s either incompetence or corruption. When you see 117-111, I don’t think anyone could be that incompetent. I’m sorry. If you know the sport, you watch the sport, you can’t be that incompetent," Atlas was quoted by The Herd Now.

"You see who’s landing clean, who’s just throwing, who’s not landing clean, who almost got knocked out, you can’t be that incompetent. So what else could it be? Corruption. Nothing else. I’m sorry. I love this sport, it’s the greatest sport in the world. It was a great day, a great night back where you guys are. It was great for the fans out there to get it on free TV, brought back to free TV where boxing belongs. It was great! It was great theater. There’s no theater like boxing. Nothing. But the decision stunk."

Not contradicting you lightskintwint, just thought it was interesting that quite a lot of experts also feel this way. I've banged on enough about how Arum cannot be trusted, but this really his is MO. But you are right aggression, controlling the middle of the ring, and the crowd plays a huge role. But that is still quite a big discrepancy.
Click to expand...

Teddy Atlus is always wild with the conspiracy theories in Boxing if you've ever listened to him commentate for years on ESPN Friday Night Boxing

Are you familiar with Hanlon's Razor, " "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"?

Well in this case, Don't attribute conspiracy or corruption that which is adequately explained by incompetence...

unless of course you have any evidence of conspiracy or corruption.
 
J

Jest Chillin

Member
As I said earlier, the reason why people are so outraged and calling it a robbery isn't really because of the loss itself but due to that one particular score. It puts a giant spotlight on corruption in judging, which makes all the judges scores questionable regardless of whether or not you can make an argument for the other judges scores.

Just as Shoeless Joe Jackson will never be removed from the MLB's blacklist simply because he was on a team that fixed the 1919 World Series despite a mountain of evidence supporting his innocence. Corruption by association is a powerful thing.

So taking the stance of it doesn't matter if that one judge was corrupt because he would lost anyways since the other judges scores can be justified from a certain point of view won't change the impression of corruption and thus "robbery."

It's a bit similar to the "he was winning until he lost" reasoning when debating who is a better fighter. "Manny was beating JMM right up until he got knocked out." Maybe. But so what? Doesn't change that he was knocked out. "I can make an argument that Horn deserved to win if the judges weighed THIS thing more than OTHER thing." Sure. But so what when that 117-111 score shows corruption.
 
L

lightskintwin

Banned
Jest Chillin said:
As I said earlier, the reason why people are so outraged and calling it a robbery isn't really because of the loss itself but due to that one particular score. It puts a giant spotlight on corruption in judging, which makes all the judges scores questionable regardless of whether or not you can make an argument for the other judges scores.

Just as Shoeless Joe Jackson will never be removed from the MLB's blacklist simply because he was on a team that fixed the 1919 World Series despite a mountain of evidence supporting his innocence. Corruption by association is a powerful thing.

So taking the stance of it doesn't matter if that one judge was corrupt because he would lost anyways since the other judges scores can be justified from a certain point of view won't change the impression of corruption and thus "robbery."

It's a bit similar to the "he was winning until he lost" reasoning when debating who is a better fighter. "Manny was beating JMM right up until he got knocked out." Maybe. But so what? Doesn't change that he was knocked out. "I can make an argument that Horn deserved to win if the judges weighed THIS thing more than OTHER thing." Sure. But so what when that 117-111 score shows corruption.
Click to expand...

BAD JUDGING on it's own doesn't show corruption, unless you have evidence that the BAD SCORE was made due to corruption instead of incompetence.
 
J

Jest Chillin

Member
lightskintwin said:
BAD JUDGING on it's own doesn't show corruption, unless you have evidence that the BAD SCORE was made due to corruption instead of incompetence.
Click to expand...

I don't need evidence. We're not talking about actual repercussions here. We're talking about peoples opinions and why they feel that way.

Saying that people can't have their stance because there's no evidence while simultaneously saying that your stance has merit because maybe the judges possibly thought like this, that, or the other is pot and kettle.
 
J

Jest Chillin

Member
lightskintwin said:
Then everything can be conveniently explained away by some nefarious corruption and diabolical conspiracies instead of trying to address and fix what can possibly be problems in how we want our judges to score fights.

These types of decisions happen all the time.
Click to expand...

Of course everything can be explained away by people who want to explain it away. That's how humans work. They can justify anything and everything in any manner of ways if they want to.

You're missing what I'm saying. The question here isn't "how do we fix this?" I don't even think the fans could fix it if they wanted to. That has to happen from the top down or the whole business needs to die and be reborn from scratch.

The question is why are people outraged or calling this a robbery? You've taken the stance that it shouldn't be called that because IF a bunch of factors line up a certain way, the decision can be justified from a specific point of view, so that's good enough not to call the decision into question. I'm saying that that isn't good enough to sway opposing opinions because of the way people form opinions. That's it.

Both sides of this are literally opinions speculating about opinions. And there's no ground for either side to stand on in a "prove it" retort.
 
K

KahooTs

Member
There was only one round that couldn't within reason be disputed. Even round 1 CBS (who came up with 114-114) had for Pac. A very wide range of scores was perfectly valid.
 
The Rain King

The Rain King

Member
KahooTs said:
There was only one round that couldn't within reason be disputed. Even round 1 CBS (who came up with 114-114) had for Pac. A very wide range of scores was perfectly valid.
Click to expand...
This. I'm still salty about the Jacobs v Golovkin result, but this was just whatever. Good fight either way.
 
X

x Power Pad Death Stomp x

Member
Peeps should download a scoring app for their phones. I use one while watching then I can watch it again and see if I'd score it differently. I've watched the fight twice now and I'm still at 115-113 Paquiao.
 
T

Tom_Cody

Member
FYI: I have a press credential for the NYC event tomorrow.

I will probably get to ask each fighter a question, so please let me know if you have any suggestions.
 
S

Syder

Member
Lee Selby successfully defends his IBF featherweight title against Jonathan Victor Barros

Chris Eubank Jr. vs Arthur Abraham about to start
 
P

Pennywise

Member
Syder said:
Abraham soaking up too much right now.
Click to expand...

He's just too old.
He was always a rather lazy guy that mainly focused on his KO's during the different weight class.
Moving up and still being lazy just didn't do him any favors, combine that with his age it's just not good enough.
Should have already stopped boxing some time ago.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Weekend Box Office - Aug 2 - 4, 2024 - Trapped between a twist and a despicable film
30
2K
Jinzo Prime replied
Big Boy Boxing Announced + Steam Demo
18
1K
RavageX replied
FromSoftware working on multiple projects across various genres; Miyazaki also adds: "I think we'll be able to show you a new FromSoftware"
News Game Dev 2
67
3K
HYDE replied
  • Poll
Elden Ring: Shadow of the Erdtree | Review Thread
Analysis Review 4 5 6 7 8
354
36K
GametimeUK replied
Peer to peer multiplayer should come back
Opinion
12
805
Kabelly replied
Top Bottom