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[Kleegamefan]

From the 6/1/05 CED:

Viability of Replicating 45-GB HD DVDs Unproven, Panasonic Has Told Studios

There has been “no manufacturing feasibility” established for the replication of triple-layer 45-GB HD DVD ROM discs, Panasonic has told the major studios in the last few weeks in an effort to debunk Toshiba’s recent claims to the contrary, according to studio sources familiar with those discussions.

Toshiba introduced the 45-GB HD DVD on the eve of last month’s Media-Tech Expo in Las Vegas to deflate Blu-ray’s claim to superiority based on disc capacity (CED May 11 p2). Studios backing HD DVD said they were ecstatic at news the format can accommodate 45 GB of content on a single-sided, triple-layer disc. Although Toshiba never released pricing, sources within the HD DVD camp said the 45-GB disc would cost “dimes, not dollars more” than producing today’s dual-layer DVD-9 -- “maybe 3 dimes.”

However, Hollywood sources told Consumer Electronics Daily that Panasonic since has mounted a reality check campaign and taken it straight to the studios’ doorsteps. Panasonic’s bottom line claim -- not only does the 45-GB HD DVD require tolerances thus far unheard of in the replication world, it’s based on manufacturing processes that haven’t even been developed yet.

Panasonic, perhaps Blu-ray’s staunchest defender of that format’s “0.1" form factor over HD DVD’s “0.6," has told the studios DVD’s manufacturing tolerances (to within plus or minus 10-30 microns) were proven viable in the 1990s. Blu-ray, though built to tighter tolerances to within plus or minus 3 microns, is based on technology proven viable in the last 5 years, it said. By comparison, the triple-layer, 45-GB requires “ultra accuracy” in production and must be built to within tolerances of plus or minus one micron or less.

We’re told Panasonic has characterized this as “future technology” that can’t be proven viable without the required “spherical aberration compensation.” Accuracy in replication, and the ability of a plant to produce discs within a specification’s tolerance, has a direct implication for long-term yields and costs, Panasonic said.

The Panasonic presentations to the studios also sought to debunk Toshiba’s claims that dual-layer HD DVDs could be produced at costs on par with those of regular dual-layer DVDs, the sources told us. Manufacturing dual-layer HD DVDs requires the same degree of accuracy as Blu-ray ROM discs, Panasonic told the studios. Moreover, there’s no way to use existing DVD manufacturing lines for dual-layer HD DVD ROMs, the studios were told. New special “vacuum system” machinery is required, it said.

Matsushita are not the biggest fans of HD-DVD, it seems....

 

[aaaaa0]

Duh, Matsushita/Panasonic is a BD founding member. What are they going to say?

"Sorry we were wrong, BD is d00m3d, HDDVD TL is the best!!!!"

 

[xabre]

This is going to be like Beta vs VHS, one will win out but there'll be a lot of fucking around in the process.

 

[mr2mike]

So my optical disc iliterate mind has had this idea about the diference between HD-DVD and BluRay:

The difference between the 0.1 and 0.6 layers is that if the disc is 1.1 mm (I think that was the number), in BR they've got a full millimiter to pack in layers, at relatively lax tolerances, while with HD-DVD, they'd have the same cram job ahead of them, but packing it all in roughly half the space, leading to difficult capacity expansion due to the narrow tolerances between layers (relative to blue ray) and ultimately, much restricted expansion relative to BR, wich ultimately has more "room" for layers if both are compared using similar manufacturing tolerances.

?

 

[borghe]

This is going to be like Beta vs VHS, one will win out but there'll be a lot of fucking around in the process.

if we are lucky

*looks at high resolution audio*
*looks at pre-recorded digital video before DVD*
*looks at recordable digital media before CD-R*

one of two things will happen. either one will establish a lead and drown the other one, thus effectively creating one "standard", OR both will remain strong enough as to gain support from early adopters but confusing and bothersome to the typical end user thus relegating both formats to laserdisc/DVHS replacements.

 

[Barnimal]

45gb for space is fucking rediculous for movies. wtf are they doing to do? literally pack the entire real life movie shoot onto the disc as behind the scenes footage?

 

[OmniGamer]

My thoughts on HD-DVD

"JUST DIE YOU BITCH!'

 

[Kleegamefan]

45gb for space is fucking rediculous for movies. wtf are they doing to do? literally pack the entire real life movie shoot onto the disc as behind the scenes footage?

They will use most of that space for high-resolution video...

IIRC, you can fit around 2.5 hours of HD video on a 25GB SL BRD-RE disk, for example....

In comparison, you can fit around 3 hours on SD video on a 8.5GB DVD....

 

[xabre]

one of two things will happen. either one will establish a lead and drown the other one, thus effectively creating one "standard", OR both will remain strong enough as to gain support from early adopters but confusing and bothersome to the typical end user thus relegating both formats to laserdisc/DVHS replacements.

The only reason why I believe there will eventually be a winner is because of the need for a large capacity recording format for HDTV. Otherwise if all either format was offering was high rez versions of current movies everyone already owns it would simply be another SACD/DVD Audio fiasco.

Someone please tell me that when both Blu Ray and HD-DVD drives go on the market these will support recordable formats from the start? Tell me that every single Blu Ray or HD-DVD drive will be able to record HDTV to re-writable discs (none of this two tier some record and some don't BS like current DVD players)?

 

[ManaByte]

45gb for space is fucking rediculous for movies. wtf are they doing to do? literally pack the entire real life movie shoot onto the disc as behind the scenes footage?

Good quality HD video and audio takes up a lot more than the 4-9gigs current DVDs have. Sure, you'll se some cheap companies doing big bundles on a HD-DVD/Blu-Ray disc but it'll just be regular DVD-quality video crammed on one disc.

My thoughts on HD-DVD

"JUST DIE YOU BITCH!'

The problem is the DVD Forum has chosen HD-DVD as the next generation HD video format and as such we have a format war that is going to splinter the market.

 

[ManaByte]

The only reason why I believe there will eventually be a winner is because of the need for a large capacity recording format for HDTV. Otherwise if all either format was offering was high rez versions of current movies everyone already owns it would simply be another SACD/DVD Audio fiasco.

Someone please tell me that when both Blu Ray and HD-DVD drives go on the market these will support recordable formats from the start? Tell me that every single Blu Ray or HD-DVD drive will be able to record HDTV to re-writable discs (none of this two tier some record and some don't BS like current DVD players)?

People like DVRs, which is why recordable DVD players never took off much. There will be more of a move to get better HD DVRs as opposed to the mass market adopting a recordable disc format. This is definitely going to be another SACD/DVD Audio fiasco and almost everyone sees it as that.

 

[Kleegamefan]

You will have some Blu-ray ROM player-only models (like the PS3) that just play HD movies and you will also have recordable hardware as well.....

As far as blu-ray disks go they can be ROM disks (PS3 games, HD movies, PC games) write once BRD-Rs and re-recordable BRD-RE disks(these have been available in Japan for 2 years now)...

The HD-DVD format will be just like this....some ROM disks and players and some recorders....

People like DVRs, which is why recordable DVD players never took off much. There will be more of a move to get better HD DVRs as opposed to the mass market adopting a recordable disc format. This is definitely going to be another SACD/DVD Audio fiasco and almost everyone sees it as that.

Since PS3 will use the Blu-ray format, I don't think HD-DVD has a chance....DVD-Audio and SA CD never had something as compelling or as mainstream as PS3 as a vehicle for the format...

BRD as a format will die only if PlayStation 3 dies along with it, IMO....

BTW, PS3 also plays SACDs

 

[xabre]

They will use most of that space for high-resolution video...

IIRC, you can fit around 2.5 hours of HD video on a 25GB SL BRD-RE disk, for example....

In comparison, you can fit around 3 hours on SD video on a 8.5GB DVD....

Yeah HD video takes a lot of space, just look at the showcase. One thing I'm interested to know is how H.264 performs at high bitrates? I know it's a great compression format (roughly 1/3 the space of mpeg2 for the same quality), yet I wonder how it would do at higher bit rates relative to mpeg2. One thing I expect is no compression artifacts in Blu Ray HD content (even the WMV I linked to at around 50mb a minute have artifacts), it has the space so there should be no excuses.

 

[ManaByte]

You will have some Blu-ray ROM player-only models (like the PS3) that just play HD movies and you will also have recordable hardware as well.....

As far as blu-ray disks go they can be ROM disks (PS3 games, HD movies, PC games) write once BRD-Rs and re-recordable BRD-RE disks(these have been available in Japan for 2 years now)...

The HD-DVD format will be just like this....some ROM disks and players and some recorders....

The majority of companies are just making ROM only models simply because recordable DVD players never took off because DVRs were superior in features and if someone wanted to burn a DVD of their home movies they would usually use their PCs.

Aside from Sony producing super-high end BRD-R players there is going to be only one or two others producing consumer recorders (Panasonic) and they will likely only be direct-sales and not sold in most stores.

 

[rc213]

The majority of companies are just making ROM only models simply because recordable DVD players never took off because DVRs were superior in features and if someone wanted to burn a DVD of their home movies they would usually use their PCs.

Aside from Sony producing super-high end BRD-R players there is going to be only one or two others producing consumer recorders (Panasonic) and they will likely only be direct-sales and not sold in most stores.

Pioneer is sure to bring Blu-Ray Recorders to the mainstream as usual.

 

[PhatSaqs]

Intersting info on MS' stance:

http://www.videobusiness.com/article.asp?articleID=10677&catType=NEWS

In fact, one reason for Microsoft's soft-pedaling so far in the U.S., sources who have negotiated with the company say, could be a desire not to antagonize the forces behind the two blue-laser formats.

Microsoft is a partner with Toshiba and Sony in the Advanced Access Content System, which both Blu-ray and HD DVD plan to use for copy-protection.

Both camps also are expected to include Microsoft's Windows Media Video as a mandatory compression system in their format's formal specs. That gives the software giant an interest in giving the blue-laser formats a chance to succeed.

Microsoft also is keenly awaiting final approval from the Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers for adoption of its VC-1 video codec for use in high-def film and TV production and distribution.

But implementation of the VC-1 codec would also tap technology developed by Sony, which would need to license its use to Microsoft.

Antagonizing Sony now could prevent the software giant from securing the licenses it needs for VC-1, said sources close to Microsoft.

 

[Kleegamefan]

Yeah HD video takes a lot of space, just look at the showcase. One thing I'm interested to know is how H.264 performs at high bitrates? I know it's a great compression format (roughly 1/3 the space of mpeg2 for the same quality), yet I wonder how it would do at higher bit rates relative to mpeg2. One thing I expect is no compression artifacts in Blu Ray HD content (even the WMV I linked to at around 50mb a minute have artifacts), it has the space so there should be no excuses.

Both VC-1 and H.264 MPEG4 HP video codecs have shown to match the performance of MPEG-2 at nearly a third of the bandwidth....in fact, the sweet spot for both codecs are in the 12-16mb/sec region (average bandwidth using VBR)....any more than that nets you an improvement in PQ too small to notice...

 

[ManaByte]

Pioneer is sure to bring Blu-Ray Recorders to the mainstream as usual.

Yes and they'll likely be part of the Pioneer Elite line and thus sold in speciality home theater stores as opposed to your local Best Buy.

All of the makers of the players know that asking consumers to give up all the convenience of a DVR for a disc-based recording format that lacks the features they've come to rely on is a recipe for disaster. People love their DVRs because it makes everything so easy for them to record ANYTHING they could ever want without worrying about having to buy media to feed the player.

Companies know very well that it will only be the most hardcore that'll want a BRD recorder and that's who they will be produced for and marketed to.

 

[Kleegamefan]

Aside from Sony producing super-high end BRD-R players there is going to be only one or two others producing consumer recorders (Panasonic) and they will likely only be direct-sales and not sold in most stores.

That is total bullshit...

The BRD consortium have gone on record as saying they will release recorders and in fact the PS3 is the first ever announced BRD ROM deck....in Japan, the Sharp deck, the Samsung deck, both Panasonic decks and both Sony decks are recorders...

In fact, every BRD product avaliabe for sale have all been recorders....who told you this direct sales story?

 

[xabre]

You will have some Blu-ray ROM player-only models (like the PS3) that just play HD movies and you will also have recordable hardware as well.....

See this I don't like, it just splinters the market. DVD is not a viable recording alternative to VHS because the vast majority of DVD players are read only; and the recordable drives (while finally coming down in price) are still not really viable for mainstream market penetration. What I expected though, was that with the very first generation of Blu Ray drives (and HD-DVD) that recording would be standard, it seems though that like current DVDs the market will be splintered, only now it will be between expensive read only HD formats and very expensive recordable formats. In all honesty there is no way I can see these new formats taking off anytime soon or for a long time after release for that matter. The only thing that will take these devices out of a tech niche and into some kind of mainstream acceptace will be the eventual decreasing costs of the recordable HD drives and the need to record HD content due to switch (all over the world) to HDTV formats exclusively from analogue formats. But even then, I imagine many consumers would be perfectly be happy to record HD content on (by that time, cheap as piss) stand run-off-the-mill DVD recorders and by the time HD recorders are available at affordable prices it may well be too late. As if the average Joe Blow could give a shit about losing resolution when recording? As long as the fucking thing records, that's all he is going to care about.

 

[rc213]

Yes and they'll likely be part of the Pioneer Elite line and thus sold in speciality home theater stores as opposed to your local Best Buy.

All of the makers of the players know that asking consumers to give up all the convenience of a DVR for a disc-based recording format that lacks the features they've come to rely on is a recipe for disaster. People love their DVRs because it makes everything so easy for them to record ANYTHING they could ever want without worrying about having to buy media to feed the player.

Companies know very well that it will only be the most hardcore that'll want a BRD recorder and that's who they will be produced for and marketed to.

I was talking about pc drives.

 

[Kleegamefan]

I was talking about pc drives.

Benq showed off their BRD PC recorder at Computex in Taipei this week

http://computerworld.com.sg/ShowPage.aspx?pagetype=2&articleid=1406&pubid=3&issueid=50

xabre, I do agree that the recordable settop BRD/HD-DVD will have a small slice of total next-gen optical pie...that will be mostly due to the price premium over ROM players more than anything, IMO......I can't see a BRD-RE deck being $300-400, like a PS3.....not at first....

The big numbers will come from the cheaper ROM players, particularlly the PlayStation 3, which could sell 100 million units or more over its lifetime...

People are going to buy a PS3 anyway,so this will be an opportunity for the movie studios to take advantage of the large consumer base and release movies for the format...

Once PS3 sales really start to take off, I see just about every Movie Studio not called Warner to support BRD....

 

[mr2mike]

I love it everytime someone says "But the DVD consortium chose HD-DVD!"

The DVD consortium was a group of companies that agree to a single format for everone. Now that there is a format war, the DVD "consortium" means nothing because a lot of the companies that made it up, jumped ship to the BluRay Group.

If the "DVD consortium" had authority ove studios and hardware makers then yeah, the argument would hold some weight, but that's not the case, The only factors in this game is who nabs market share te fastest. That's IT. No amount of babling on consortium's part would change that.

 

[Kleegamefan]

The BRD group never submitted their format to the DVD consortium....

The DVD consortium didn't "choose" HD-DVD......the BRD group turned its back on the DVD consortium and made thier own consortium...


They may not be the DVD consortium but the BRD group have some heavy hitters like Sony, Matsushita, Disney, Samsung, HP and Apple, just to name a few influntial members...

 

[Andy787]

I just don't know how the HDDVD camp can feasibly compete in the actual marketplace. Forgetting the fact that the PS3 alone will likely shift millions upon millions of units in the space it will take the HDDVD camp combined to top one million, just from an average consumer's standpoint, if you go into a store when these are released, and you see a new movie player for your new HDTV, and on one side you see see few models from Toshiba, and on the other side and see a bunch of different models from companies like Sony, Samsung, Panasonic, Sharp, as well as support for their players' discs in your new computer from HP or Dell or your new Mac, which player are you going to choose?

 

[ManaByte]

I just don't know how the HDDVD camp can feasibly compete in the actual marketplace. Forgetting the fact that the PS3 alone will likely shift millions upon millions of units in the space it will take the HDDVD camp combined to top one million, just from an average consumer's standpoint, if you go into a store when these are released, and you see a new movie player for your new HDTV, and on one side you see see few models from Toshiba, and on the other side and see a bunch of different models from companies like Sony, Samsung, Panasonic, Sharp, as well as support for their players' discs in your new computer from HP or Dell or your new Mac, which player are you going to choose?

The one that has the movies you want, which is the problem.

 

[Andy787]

Considering Columbia/Tristar/Sony Pictures Classics/Revolution studios, MGM, Disney, 20th Century Fox, etc are on board with BRD, it is a pretty even case when it comes to movies, which is my point.

Toshiba and NEC own no movie studios, so all this is is politics. The rest of the movie studios should just sign with BRD. =/

 

[Shompola]

Sounds like HDVD still has a greater amount of the movie industry behind it. WB isnt exactly small potatoes.

 

[Kleegamefan]

HD-DVD have about half of motion picture market share mostly because of the influence of Warner, who is, arguably, the most important Movie Studio in the world (for better or worse)..

Be that as it may, It is HIGHLY UNLIKELY HD-DVD players will put up PS3-like numbers so you can bet Paramount and Dreamworks will jump ship once they see an installed base of 20-30-40 million(or more) PS3 BRD players, most of which will be owned by their coveted 18-34 demographic...

I BET ANYTHING Warner are the grand puppeteer behind the HD-DVD scenes, not Toshiba....

They pulled this same shit in 1996 with DVD....anyone who knows the history of that charade will probaby agree with me...

 

[aaaaa0]

So my optical disc iliterate mind has had this idea about the diference between HD-DVD and BluRay:

The difference between the 0.1 and 0.6 layers is that if the disc is 1.1 mm (I think that was the number), in BR they've got a full millimiter to pack in layers, at relatively lax tolerances, while with HD-DVD, they'd have the same cram job ahead of them, but packing it all in roughly half the space, leading to difficult capacity expansion due to the narrow tolerances between layers (relative to blue ray) and ultimately, much restricted expansion relative to BR, wich ultimately has more "room" for layers if both are compared using similar manufacturing tolerances.

?

No.

The difference is that with 0.1 mm you can make the pits smaller, so you can fit more data per layer on the disc.

1 layer on HD DVD = 15GB
1 layer on BD = 25GB

There are lots of tradeoffs to going with 0.1 mm cover layer, not the least of which is that the 0.1 mm cover layer has to be very precisely made, and hard-coated to be strong enough to avoid scratches.

Both these problems are what's currently causing the disc duplicators many headaches in getting their yields and production to a practical level.

Forget 4 or 8 layer BD. Those discs are just ridiculous to build. From amillians on avsforum, the specs on the 8 layer BD look like this:

0.0400mm cover layer
L7 SiN
0.0095mm spacer layer
L6 SiN
0.0135mm spacer layer
L5 SiN
0.0095mm spacer layer
L4 Ag alloy
0.0135mm spacer layer
L3 Ag alloy
0.0105mm spacer layer
L2 Ag alloy
0.0016mm spacer layer
L1 Ag alloy
0.0012mm spacer layer
L0 Ag alloy
1.1000mm PCB substrate

The tolerances on this 8 layer structure are just insane for any mass production line in the world to build anytime now or in the forseeable future, especially since last I was updated, the disc duplicators were having problems just getting single layer BD to practical yield levels (admittedly a month or two ago).

 

[Kleegamefan]

Thanx aaaaa0.....very intresting information....

Yeah, I figured that 4-8 layer BRD stuff was more future viable....they only mention they can achieve that in the labs, so it might be a few years before we see that kind of progress from BRD...

I am kinda surprised to hear 25GB BRD are so hard to produce, though....

Sony has been offering blank 25GB and 27GB SL BRD-REs for over 2 years and Panasonic has been selling dual layer 50GB BRD-RE disks for nearly a year....perhaps the yields on those are low?? :/

 

[SKOPE]

People like DVRs, which is why recordable DVD players never took off much. There will be more of a move to get better HD DVRs as opposed to the mass market adopting a recordable disc format. This is definitely going to be another SACD/DVD Audio fiasco and almost everyone sees it as that.

People may like DVRs, but they sure aren't buying them. The concept is popular, but few are willing to pay the subscription fees associated with most of them. As always, it's a small but vocal group of fans.

As for SACD vs. DVD Audio, how many people know they exist? DVD Video, DVD-ROM, and the many recordable/rewritable DVD formats all got strong educational promotional campaigns to ensure consumers knew about them. I've heard almost nothing about SACD and DVD Audio. Consumers have to know about competing formats before they can choose between them.

And I think you're underestimating the popularity of DVD recorders.

 

[aaaaa0]

Sony has bee offering blank 25GB and 27GB SL BRD-REs for over 2 years and Panasonic has been selling dual layer 50GB BRD-RE disks for nearly a year....perhaps the yields on those are low?? :/

Consider that the retail price for a single layer blank BD-RE disc right now is ~$20-$30 US and dual layer BD-RE is clocking in around $60 each.

Compare with blank DVD+R DL closing in on $4 each at newegg...

Though to be clear, you can't really compare the retail price for writable media and ROM media and draw any precise conclusions.

 

[Azure Dream]

Moreover, there’s no way to use existing DVD manufacturing lines for dual-layer HD DVD ROMs, the studios were told. New special “vacuum system” machinery is required, it said.

Eh? I thought I heard this was one of the biggest benefits to the HD-DVD line, and why several studios were behind it.

 

[bitwise]

My thoughts on HD-DVD

[/IMG]

"JUST DIE YOU BITCH!'

it wont be HD-DVD that dies

 

[ManaByte]

Considering Columbia/Tristar/Sony Pictures Classics/Revolution studios, MGM, Disney, 20th Century Fox, etc are on board with BRD, it is a pretty even case when it comes to movies, which is my point.

Toshiba and NEC own no movie studios, so all this is is politics. The rest of the movie studios should just sign with BRD. =/

20th Century Fox is only on the board of BRD as a consultant. So far they are just plannning title support for HD-DVD although they may do both.

Fox is known for supporting multiple formats at once, so this is no surprise at all.

 

[sonycowboy]

20th Century Fox is only on the board of BRD as a consultant. So far they are just plannning title support for HD-DVD although they may do both.

Fox is known for supporting multiple formats at once, so this is no surprise at all.

I hadn't seen any PR for Fox announcing that they would release titles for HD-DVD or Blu-Ray. Linky?

 

[Nerevar]

I hope both formats fail and HVD becomes consumer viable and wins quickly, just to show those fucking companies a lesson about splintering the marketplace.

 

[turtle553]

The only thing that will take these devices out of a tech niche and into some kind of mainstream acceptace will be the eventual decreasing costs of the recordable HD drives and the need to record HD content due to switch (all over the world) to HDTV formats exclusively from analogue formats.

For the US, congress has only stated that broadcasts must be digital, not necesarily HDTV, starting in 2006 or 2007(I forget which). And now there are talks of pushing that back as the manufacturing switch to all digital TVs hasn't happened yet. It would be politically very unpopular if people's TVs stop working. Even though it would only be the TVs that get their signal through an antenna, not TVs hooked to cable or sattelite. So even if they do switch to all digital broadcasts, the people that still just get their TV signal from antennas are not going to just jump from rabbit ears to HDTV.

Here is a link about the current debate.
http://www.rtoonline.com/Content/Article/May05/WitnessesWantHardDigitalDeadline052805.asp

I don't know if other countries currently have plans to switch to all digital signals or if its just the US.

The big push in the US will be so the government can auction off the analog band for an estimated $10-$30 billion.

 

[G4life98]

HD-DVD have about half of motion picture market share mostly because of the influence of Warner, who is, arguably, the most important Movie Studio in the world (for better or worse)..

Be that as it may, It is HIGHLY UNLIKELY HD-DVD players will put up PS3-like numbers so you can bet Paramount and Dreamworks will jump ship once they see an installed base of 20-30-40 million(or more) PS3 BRD players, most of which will be owned by their coveted 18-34 demographic...

I BET ANYTHING Warner are the grand puppeteer behind the HD-DVD scenes, not Toshiba....

They pulled this same shit in 1996 with DVD....anyone who knows the history of that charade will probaby agree with me...

What happened back then?

 

[Shompola]

I don't know if other countries currently have plans to switch to all digital signals or if its just the US.

Sweden is first in the world. They will start the switch in just a few months from now and will have it completed early 2007.

 

[turtle553]

Sweden is first in the world. They will start the switch in just a few months from now and will have it completed early 2007.

Interesting. Are there the same issues there that the US is having with concerns for low-income families with older sets?

 

[Kleegamefan]

What happened back then?

From issue 71 of Widescreen Review:

Although the DVD Forum said in November(2003) that it had appointed a committee
to work with the Blu-ray group (many of whose members are also part of the Forum)
in an effort to bring them into the fold, the announcement that Blu-ray developers will
have to sign separate patent licenses with each patent holder is a clear snub to the DVD
Forum.

Back in Hollywood, meanwhile, the DVD politics are also getting thick and heavy.
Alone among the studios, Warner Bros. is a member of the DVD Forum and a partici-
pant in the patent pool, a sore point for the other studios who resent paying royalties to
a competitor every time they press a DVD. That’s particularly true among those studios,
such as Fox and Disney, who were unhappy from the start with the CSS copy-protection
system Warner rammed through the Forum, only to see it quickly hacked, robbing DVDs
of any security.

Given Warner’s patent interest in red-laser technology, the other studios are obviously
wary of its support for extending the redlaser standard to cover high-definition.
Warner’s most forceful voice on DVD matters, however, Warren Lieberfarb, widely
regarded as the father of the current standard, left the company in December after
an internal dispute. Although Warner retains its seat on the DVD Forum, without
Lieberfarb’s ability to strong-arm the other studios into falling in line, the red-laser
approach to HD could become an orphan format.

It is common knowlege that there are some sore feelings towards Warner for the CSS encryption debacle with the DVD format.....an alternative (and more robust) encryption system was being developed for DVD back in 1995, but Warner, being a DVD patent holder (along with Toshiba) strongarmed the other studios to settle for CSS in order to expidite the launch of DVD....it is one of the primary reasons the BRD group developed their own consortium seprate from the DVD forum in order to sidestep the isssue of paying a license for the AOD/HD-DVD format which had/has Warner and Toshiba as the primary patent-holders....same as with DVD....

This fact rubs some of the Hollywood studios the wrong way...

 

[Phoenix]

Sounds like HDVD still has a greater amount of the movie industry behind it. WB isnt exactly small potatoes.

Can assure you that WB will support whichever format is strong. Their support for one format does not mean that they won't support the other Right now they just want to protect their royalty gravy train.

 

[Phoenix]

I hope both formats fail and HVD becomes consumer viable and wins quickly, just to show those fucking companies a lesson about splintering the marketplace.

Who will make players/recorders for HVD? Who plans to license the format (because its the content guys who are in charge in reality)?

 

[Raistlin]

I wonder if some more mainstream (ie. pop, rock, alt, etc.) SACD will come out because of PS3? That wouldn't be so bad.

 

[Nerevar]

Who will make players/recorders for HVD? Who plans to license the format (because its the content guys who are in charge in reality)?

Well, it's irrelevant if they (being the big manufacturers) don't hold the patents on the technology (which I'm pretty sure they don't), because it drastically reduces their margins, IIRC. I'm saying I want them both to fail more out of spite than anything. I'm really upset that we're going to see a split market, and I'd rather they both fail (analagous to hi-def audio) and a better format comes along and replaces them both than one side using a trojan horse to "win".

 

[xabre]

I don't know if other countries currently have plans to switch to all digital signals or if its just the US.

I know here in Australia all analogue broadcasting must be switched off by 1st Januray 2008 IIRC, and all transmissions must be HD. Of course HD here is defined as at least 576p so a few networks here are already broadcasting in 576p and saying it's HD content.

 

[SKOPE]

I'm really upset that we're going to see a split market, and I'd rather they both fail (analagous to hi-def audio) and a better format comes along and replaces them both than one side using a trojan horse to "win".

DVD Audio and SACD have failed to catch on more because consumers don't know they exist than because of a format war.

There's plenty of buzz around HD-DVD and Blu-ray.

 

[Phoenix]

Well, it's irrelevant if they (being the big manufacturers) don't hold the patents on the technology (which I'm pretty sure they don't), because it drastically reduces their margins, IIRC. I'm saying I want them both to fail more out of spite than anything. I'm really upset that we're going to see a split market, and I'd rather they both fail (analagous to hi-def audio) and a better format comes along and replaces them both than one side using a trojan horse to "win".

But the market would already be split to begin with So now it would be split amongst 3 players instead of just 2