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Bush advisor = Swift Boat group advisor

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S

Socreges

Banned
There's also a connection through Karl Rove. And someone who is on Bush's cabinet is directly involved in the Swift Boat group.

This isn't a surprise. But people should be more suspicious. Apparently Kerry is already suffering in the polls [which may or may not make a difference come election day - probably not].
 
M

Makura

Member
527-large.png


http://www.truthlaidbear.com/archives/2004/08/22/527s_in_perspective.php#001354
 
B

bishoptl

Banstick Emeritus
I saw this on a few news sites this morning. Imagine my complete lack of surprise.

And cute little pictures won't help at all in this case, Makura - when the President's top outside legal advisor is caught providing advice to a group dedicated to bringing down the President's opponent through lies and innuendo, it paints a starker picture than you could ever hope to post.

When you lay with dogs, you rise up with fleas.
 
S

StoOgE

First tragedy, then farce.
1) Swift boat vets for truth is NOT the largest republican 527. There IS more money in liberal 527's, but not nearly as great as this graph suggests.

2) 527's are not illegal.

3) 527's coordinating with campaigns IS illegal.
 
N

Nerevar

they call me "Man Gravy".
Makura said:
527-large.png


http://www.truthlaidbear.com/archives/2004/08/22/527s_in_perspective.php#001354
Click to expand...


Of course, John Kerry himself has strongly denounced many of the ads those groups have run (most specifically the MoveOn.org ads), as well as calling for an end to "attack ads". Bush, meanwhile, has only said "all attack ads should stop" while avoiding the issue of the swift boat veterans.


Note: Isn't it funny how both candidates have called for an end to attack ads, yet they continue to run?
 
M

MIMIC

Banned
Makura said:
Any more than that?
Click to expand...

Why would I need any more? That right there is a clear indication of coordination...when someone in your own CAMPAIGN appears in an ad ran by a 527 group.
 
M

Makura

Member
StoOgE said:
Ostrich%20head%20in%20sand.jpg
Click to expand...

Apparently, demanding proof is now tantamount to having one's head stuck in the sand.

It's a double standard with no solid evidence yet brought forth. Six degrees of Kevin Bacon is right.
 
H

HAOHMARU

Member
A legal adviser for the Bush-Cheney campaign gave the Swifties "legal advice." They were not charged for the service, and the lawyer has now resigned from the campaign.

The retired Air Force Col. was an upaid adviser to the Bush-Cheney campaign on veterans' issues. The Bush-Cheney campaign did not know he was involved with the Swifties and he has since resigned from his position.

Take that for what its worth, but its not like Bush was telling these guys what he wanted done. There are no shadow agents working behind closed doors. As what has been stated before, Kerry's advisors have been linked to the 527 groups as well. If you trace enough paths anybody can be connected at some point.

The thing that I find funny is that the Kerry campaign keeps changing their story while the Swift boat group is sticking to their guns. Kerry has yet to answer questions that have been raised. He continues to call for Bush to end the "smear" tactics but then turns around and "smears" Bush in the same advirtisement. Again, hypocrocy knows no bounds.
 
M

Makura

Member
MIMIC said:
Why would I need any more? That right there is a clear indication of coordination...when someone in your own CAMPAIGN appears in an ad ran by a 527 group.
Click to expand...

Of coordinations? No. Of a connections? Yes. Whether the connection was exploited by the Bush campaign has yet to be determined or proved.
 
M

Makura

Member
HAOHMARU said:
A legal adviser for the Bush-Cheney campaign gave the Swifties "legal advice." They were not charged for the service, and the lawyer has now resigned from the campaign.

The retired Air Force Col. was an upaid adviser to the Bush-Cheney campaignon veterans' issues. The Bush-Cheney campaign did not know he was involved with the Swifties and he has since resigned from his position.

Take that for what its worth, but its not like Bush was telling these guys what he wanted done. There are no shadow agents working behind closed doors. As what has been stated before, Kerry's advisors have been linked to the 527 groups as well. If you trace enough paths anybody can be connected at some point.

The thing that I find funny is that the Kerry campaign keeps changing their story while the Swift boat group is sticking to their guns. Kerry has yet to answer questions that have been raised. He continues to call for Bush to end the "smear" tactics but then turns around and "smears" Bush in the same advirtisment. Again, hypocrocy knows no bounds.
Click to expand...

Exactly.
 
S

StoOgE

First tragedy, then farce.
Makura said:
Oh please. It's a double standard with no solid evidence yet brought forth. Six degrees of Kevin Bacon is right.
Click to expand...

Bush's top lawyer advised the swift boat group. He is a LAWYER. If I know 527's cant have any coordination with the campaign, he should sure as hell know. This isnt six degree's of Kevin bacon.. short of Bush, Cheney, or Rove meeting with him, this is about as top level in the Bush camp as you can get.

Besides that, this is the second person in the Bush camp to resign over this very issue.

The thing that I find funny is that the Kerry campaign keeps changing their story while the Swift boat group is sticking to their guns.
Click to expand...

Sure, they are sticking to their guns, as long as you discount the fact that reports from the time that got their ring leader a bronze star support Kerry's position.
 
M

MIMIC

Banned
Makura said:
Of coordinations? No. Of a connections? Yes. Whether the connection was exploited by the Bush campaign has yet to be determined or proved.
Click to expand...

Last time I checked, only "coordination" is necessary to make it a a federal crime.

Continuing beyond this point would be extremely moot.
 
M

MIMIC

Banned
HAOHMARU said:
The thing that I find funny is that the Kerry campaign keeps changing their story while the Swift boat group is sticking to their guns. Kerry has yet to answer questions that have been raised. He continues to call for Bush to end the "smear" tactics but then turns around and "smears" Bush in the same advirtisement. Again, hypocrocy knows no bounds.
Click to expand...

You're joking, right?
 
D

Dilbert

Member
Makura, you're starting to REALLY get on my nerves. Fortunately for you, I feel like responding logically today:

1) I don't know if you highlighted the red text in that graph yourself, or if you're just copying someone else's point of view (hmmm, which is more likely?), but "doing dirty work" is NOT the same thing as "trying to defeat President Bush" or "elect Democratic candidates." There is a world of difference between fraudulent personal attacks on Kerry's integrity and calling Bush's record over the last four years onto the carpet. Hint: ONE of them has substantiation.

2) The amount of money spent by a group is not relevant to their message. The chart is a red herring...typical strategy by people who don't want to deal with the truth.

3) But, since you did bring up money, and we're on the topic of Republicans being shady: How come seven of the top ten misreported financial reports from 527 committees were from REPUBLICAN groups?

4) I think you have the burden of proof backwards. A major legal advisor on the Bush campaign provided advice to the Swift Boat group, and a member of Bush's campaign actually APPEARED in one of their ads. Where is YOUR proof that there ISN'T coordination?

If this were a logical reasoning class, you'd be earning an F right now. I suggest you pull your grade up.
 
M

MIMIC

Banned
Just so we know how accurate these Swift Boat Liar Guys are:

Swift Boat Accounts Incomplete (Washington Post)


Then and now:

Roy Hoffman, today: "John Kerry has not been honest."
Roy Hoffman, 2003: "I am not going to say anything negative about him — he's a good man."

Adrian Lonsdale, today: "He lacks the capacity to lead."
Adrian Lonsdale, 1996: "He was among the finest of those Swift boat drivers."

George Elliot, today: "John Kerry has not been honest about what happened in Vietnam."
George Elliot, 1996: "The fact that he chased an armed enemy down is something not to be looked down upon, but it was an act of courage."

Larry Thurlow, today: "...there was no hostile enemy fire directed at my boat or at any of the five boats operating on the river that day."
Larry Thurlow's Bronze Star citation, 1969: "...all units began receiving enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire from the river banks."

Dr. Louis Letson, today: "I know John Kerry is lying about his first Purple Heart because I treated him for that injury."
Medical records, 1968: "Dr. Letson's name does not appear on any of the medical records for Mr. Kerry. Under 'person administering treatment' for the injury, the form is signed by a medic, J. C. Carreon, who died several years ago."

Grant Hibbard, today: "He betrayed all his shipmates. He lied before the Senate."
Hibbard's evaluation of Kerry, 1968: "Mr. Hibbard gave Mr. Kerry the highest rating of 'one of the top few' in three categories—initiative, cooperation and personal behavior. He gave Mr. Kerry the second-best rating, 'above the majority,' in military bearing."
Click to expand...
Washington Monthly
 
Sirolf

Sirolf

Member
A bit off-topic but...
Jinx,your tag is about the MKULTRA project (Mind control) from the CIA??
If no,nevermind!
 
D

Dilbert

Member
Sirolf said:
A bit off-topic but...
Jinx,your tag is about the MKULTRA project (Mind control) from the CIA??
If no,nevermind!
Click to expand...
Wow...you should win some kind of prize for recognizing the source!

Yes, MK ULTRA was a CIA mind-control project, but that isn't the primary reason I have it as a tag. It's also the title of an outstanding poem by Matthew Rohrer from his latest book, A Green Light. (The poem is related to the project, though in a strange way...)
 
F

Fusebox

Banned
But what about 7 degrees of seperation, isnt it proven that all people in the world can be connected in 7 steps or something?

What the hell am I on about??
 
R

Ripclawe

Banned
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=sto...4/ap_on_el_pr/veterans_group_bush_2&printer=1

Joe Sandler, a lawyer for the DNC and a group running anti-Bush ads, MoveOn.org, said there is nothing wrong with serving in both roles at once.


In addition to the FEC's coordination rules, attorneys are ethically bound to maintain attorney-client confidentiality, Sandler said. They could lose their law license if they violate that, he said.
Click to expand...

It ain't illegal, but the press will make hay of Bush's lawyer and not anyone on Kerry's campaign. That's to be expected.

As for the swiftboat guys, so far they have made Kerry

1) Change his cambodia story(several times)

2) Kerry Campaign says its possible that Kerry's first PH was for an unintentional self-inflicted wound, backtracking on that.

3) The whole no man left behind speech where he implied he was the only one to come back for Rassman(his rescue story has changed several times) changed to where he was the only one who fled and then came back after the first explosion after the reports have come out.

4) Kerry's journal doesn't match up with the events of his first purple heart as well.

Bottom line here is that Kerry is panicking and some members of the press are pissed off about not being able to control this story the way they want it. Kerry also has bigger problems on the way if the reports of P.O.Ws and POW families are getting together to run something against Kerry for his actions. Kerry only has himself to blame for this mess, he was stupid to run his campaign on I'm a vietnam vet, A lot of people are still pissed off at him.

As for the connections nonsense, well no shit Republican donors/supporters would help fund an anti-kerry group and they would be running around in political circles, the same goes for the democrats. McCain-Feingold is a bust as a law, but I am not going to call for the stoppage of a legal group for saying their piece.
 
H

HAOHMARU

Member
Exactly.

And Mimic, those statements most likely were taken out of context. One I definetely know about is that quote from Grant Hibbard.

This quote was in 1971 after Kerry said all that stuff to the Senate - "He betrayed all his shipmates. He lied before the Senate."

This quote was from 1968 off of Kerry's Navy evaluation, before he came to think Kerry betrayed his shipmates and lied to the Senate - "Mr. Hibbard gave Mr. Kerry the highest rating of 'one of the top few' in three categories—initiative, cooperation and personal behavior. He gave Mr. Kerry the second-best rating, 'above the majority,' in military bearing."
 
S

SolidSnakex

Member
Fusebox said:
But what about 7 degrees of seperation, isnt it proven that all people in the world can be connected in 7 steps or something?

What the hell am I on about??
Click to expand...

They did that on the Daily Show a few days ago. Jon was able to connect 2 of them to Bush with just 2 and 3 steps.
 
X

xsarien

daedsiluap
Makura said:
Apparently, demanding proof is now tantamount to having one's head stuck in the sand.

It's a double standard with no solid evidence yet brought forth. Six degrees of Kevin Bacon is right.
Click to expand...

No, but you pretty much scoffed at the nice, organized chart that the New York Times made, which put Bush/Cheney a mere one to two degrees away from the Swift Boat Veterans.

I don't know how much more black and white the argument can be made.
 
S

StoOgE

First tragedy, then farce.
No, asking for proof is not tatamount to putting your head in the sand, demanding proof in the face of said proof hower, is.
 
R

Ripclawe

Banned
HAOHMARU said:
Exactly.

And Mimic, those statements most likely were taken out of context. One I definetely know about is that quote from Grant Hibbard.

This quote was in 1971 after Kerry said all that stuff to the Senate - "He betrayed all his shipmates. He lied before the Senate."

This quote was from 1968 off of Kerry's evaluation, before he came to think Kerry betrayed his shipmates and lied to the Senate - "Mr. Hibbard gave Mr. Kerry the highest rating of 'one of the top few' in three categories—initiative, cooperation and personal behavior. He gave Mr. Kerry the second-best rating, 'above the majority,' in military bearing."
Click to expand...

Kerry also lied in his biography Tour of Duty about 2 of the men who backed him up because of a 96 race where he was accused of being a war criminal.
 
E

explodet

Member
Okay, just so I've got this straight:

* A lawyer for the Bush campaign provided legal advice for the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.

* No coordination is allowed between independently funded groups and a party whose aims or candidate the group supports.

* The lawyer resigned from the campaign for breaking above rule.

* A Bush campaign spokesman said: "There has been no coordination at any time."
 
X

xsarien

daedsiluap
explodet said:
Okay, just so I've got this straight:

* A lawyer for the Bush campaign provided legal advice for the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.

* No coordination is allowed between independently funded groups and a party whose aims or candidate the group supports.

* The lawyer resigned from the campaign for breaking above rule.

* A Bush campaign spokesman said: "There has been no coordination at any time."
Click to expand...

In a nutshell, yeah. But it's not too far a stretch of the imagination to think that this guy was giving them strictly legal advice.
 
H

HAOHMARU

Member
Pretty much, but don't forget one of Kerry's legal advisors has done the same exact thing with a 527 group. Other ties could be made to these groups and members of Kerry's campaign as well. I'm pretty sure none of his campaign members have resigned over anything though.
 
N

Nerevar

they call me "Man Gravy".
I love how easily the neo-cons in this thread flock to any minutae that implies that Kerry might've misrepresented his service time, yet ask no questions about the fact that nobody has verified Bush's time of "service" during the Vietnam War. It's just about the worst double standard you can find.
 
H

HAOHMARU

Member
His service record was partially destroyed, but some forms of documentation of him being present for duty do exist. Its the conspiracy theorists that think he went AWOL.

The stuff about Kerry's service and his betrayal and lies to the Senate are factual.
 
S

StoOgE

First tragedy, then farce.
HAOHMARU said:
His service record was partially destroyed, but some forms of documentation of him being present for duty do exist. Its the conspiracy theorists that think he went AWOL.

The stuff about Kerry's service and his betrayal and lies to the Senate are factual.
Click to expand...

Wait.. you are telling me a guy who claims Kerry went to Vietnam with the sole intent of lying ti get medals of honor and purple hearts in order to get out early and run for office later is 'factual' but people questioning Bush's attendence in Alabama are consiracy theorists. Great.
 
X

xsarien

daedsiluap
HAOHMARU said:
His service record was partially destroyed, but some forms of documentation of him being present for duty do exist.
Click to expand...

Yeah, those dental records really put the issue to rest, and what's being spewed about Kerry is hardly cold, hard fact.
 
S

StoOgE

First tragedy, then farce.
xsarien said:
Yeah, those dental records really put the issue to rest, and what's being spewed about Kerry is hardly cold, hard fact.
Click to expand...

no, thats how it works.

Bush = missing documentation/destroyed documentation plus hearsay = conspiracy theorists refusing to believe the truth.

Kerry = documentation backing up his claims plus hearsay plus other people backing up Kerrys claims plus forensic evidence of bullets in one of the swiftboats PLUS documentation of people speaking out against Kerry contradicting themselves = fact that Kerry lied.
 
N

Nerevar

they call me "Man Gravy".
HAOHMARU said:
His service record was partially destroyed, but some forms of documentation of him being present for duty do exist. Its the conspiracy theorists that think he went AWOL.

The stuff about Kerry's service and his betrayal and lies to the Senate are factual.
Click to expand...


ever heard of the term "cognitive dissonance"?


Just curious.
 
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