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[HAOHMARU]

Wait.. you are telling me a guy who claims Kerry went to Vietnam with the sole intent of lying ti get medals of honor and purple hearts in order to get out early and run for office later is 'factual'

That is not what the group of Swift Boats for Truth is claiming at all. Where did you get that information, or what individual said that?

Parts of Bush's service record have been lost or destroyed. One of his existing documents, which is as you stated a dental record, shows that he was infact still serving in the Texas national guard. You don't go AWOL and then all of the sudden report in and get your teeth cleaned by military dentists (or whatever he had done). If he did really go AWOL, then where are all the Texas national guardsmen saying that he didn't show up? How come there isn't a Texas national guardsmen for truth? Why aren't the 527 groups attacking Bush digging further into this? I'll tell you, because they have gone as far as they can...and by doing what they have they planted that false seed in your brain raising doubt about Bush's service.

Kerry = documentation backing up his claims plus hearsay plus other people backing up Kerrys claims plus forensic evidence of bullets in one of the swiftboats PLUS documentation of people speaking out against Kerry contradicting themselves = fact that Kerry lied.

The only documentation that backs up Kerry is an after action report that he most likely wrote up. The "forensic" evidence (forensic scientists were sent back in time to look at Kerry's swift boat? Hmm...) you claim was actually from enemy fire that happened on the previous day. NO enemy shots were fired on the day Kerry claims.

Read Ripclawes post again...it raises many "flip-flops" about Kerry's claims. The Kerry campaign is struggling to put these fires out, but has yet to answer many questions that the Swifties have raised. Again, the Swifties are sticking to their story...and Kerry can't make up his mind.

ever heard of the term "cognitive dissonance"?

Just curious.

To be honest, no I haven't. Educate me please. (and know I could have lied or have looked it up myself...I'd really like to know if you can refrain from personal attacks. Not saying you would...that is just my standpoint.)

 

[xsarien]

If he did really go AWOL, then where are all the Texas national guardsmen saying that he didn't show up?

Where are all the Guardsmen who are willing to say that he did show up?

 

[HAOHMARU]

Well, at least one has that I know of...his patrol squadron commander.

 

[StoOgE]

That is not what the group of Swift Boats for Truth is claiming at all. Where did you get that information, or what individual said that?



The only documentation that backs up Kerry is an after action report that he most likely wrote up. The "forensic" evidence (forensic scientists were sent back in time to look at Kerry's swift boat? Hmm...) you claim was actually from enemy fire that happened on the previous day. NO enemy shots were fired on the day Kerry claims.

1) The ring leader of the swift boats for truth has been saying that in TV interviews for the last week and a half. Im starting to wonder if you actually know anything about this at all.

2) Forensic science is not new at all, gasp they were able to check for bullets in things back then to.

3) The only person who says it is from the previous days fire is the ring leader of the swift boaters for truth...

 

[xsarien]

Well, at least one has that I know of...his patrol squadron commander.

And does that include the "missing months," where Bush says he was in Alabama/helping a political campaign/abducted by aliens/whatever his excuse was?

 

[border]

How is it that the Swifties have "stuck to their guns" when so many of them have praised Kerry in the past?

 

[HAOHMARU]

1) The ring leader of the swift boats for truth has been saying that in TV interviews for the last week and a half. Im starting to wonder if you actually know anything about this at all.

2) Forensic science is not new at all, gasp they were able to check for bullets in things back then to.

3) The only person who says it is from the previous days fire is the ring leader of the swift boaters for truth...

1. Find me the offical quote or a source that says O'Neil said exactly what you said.

2. No shit, but again those bullet holes were from action from the previous day. I will repeat, NO enemy shots were fired on the day Kerry claims.

3. 3 out of 5 swift boat captains are saying the same thing that there were no shots fired. I'm not sure about the 4th, and Kerry was the 5th.

 

[HAOHMARU]

How is it that the Swifties have "stuck to their guns" when so many of them have praised Kerry in the past?

Again, those quotes have most likely been taken out of context. I can't go through the entire dialouge to find out why each of them were praising Kerry at that point in time.

They are sticking to their guns because their story about what Kerry did in Vietnam and what he did after the war has NOT changed. The quotes praising Kerry could have been for anything...like his views on tax cuts for all I know. On the other hand Kerry's story about his time in Vietnam has changed multiple times and he HAS been caught in lies.

 

[border]

I love how when one guy says that Bush showed up and that's enough to "prove" his service, but all the actual boatmates of Kerry don't count for much of anything, so long as they are defending him......

 

[xsarien]

1. Find me the offical quote or a source that says O'Neil said exactly what you said.

You know, for someone who believes a rather blatant assumption (at its best)...

(Namely this

The only documentation that backs up Kerry is an after action report that he most likely wrote up.

Your sudden interest in exact quotes and direct evidence intrigues me.

 

[HAOHMARU]

And does that include the "missing months," where Bush says he was in Alabama/helping a political campaign/abducted by aliens/whatever his excuse was?

I don't know about missing months, but there is such a thing in the military as taking authorized "leave." If it was at the end of his obligated service he may have also had "terminal leave." Terminal leave is when you are getting out of the military but detach from your command and finish your last few weeks/months on leave status. You are still in the military getting pay, benefits ect. but you are in a "leave" status.

If Bush did either one of these then he was authorized to be in Alabama doing campaign work.

 

[HAOHMARU]

You know, for someone who believes a rather blatant assumption (at its best)...

Your sudden interest in exact quotes and direct evidence intrigues me.

Well, when Stoge says: "Wait.. you are telling me a guy who claims Kerry went to Vietnam with the sole intent of lying ti get medals of honor and purple hearts in order to get out early and run for office later is 'factual'"

I want him to show me proof, because I know O'Neil and the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth did not say that. The only thing that they have said was that he used one of his purple hearts to get out Vietnam early. There was never anything about Medal of Honor, or his sole intent on lying was to get out and run for office later.

 

[StoOgE]

Thurlow. He was the other one to win the bronze star out of all of this.. in any case, from Hardball a few days back (he was on that show after Hardball last night, and talked about this more.. but I really dont want to go through a transcrpit to get it.

MATTHEWS: Can you honestly tell me now, sir, that you could swear in open court that you know that John Kerry, when he was a lieutenant JG in the same theater you were in had some plan for winning medals? Do you know that for a fact?

THURLOW: OK. In other words, present evidence that he had this plan?

MATTHEWS: Yes.

THURLOW: Of course, I couldn‘t.

MATTHEWS: Well, what...

THURLOW: I‘m basing it on my observations.

MATTHEWS: These are after-the-fact observations. You say he had a plan ahead of time to make himself a war hero to get elected to office.

THURLOW: I‘m saying that he had a plan that included not only being a war hero but getting an early out.

MATTHEWS: But you admit you have no tangible evidence.

THURLOW: I have my own personal observations.

This guy is a major lynch pin in this case mind you.

 

[Mumbles]

2) Kerry Campaign says its possible that Kerry's first PH was for an unintentional self-inflicted wound, backtracking on that.

3) The whole no man left behind speech where he implied he was the only one to come back for Rassman(his rescue story has changed several times) changed to where he was the only one who fled and then came back after the first explosion after the reports have come out.

4) Kerry's journal doesn't match up with the events of his first purple heart as well.

1) The Cambodia part is correct, although there is a great deal of confusion about who, if anyone, entered Cambodia at the time.

2) When John Hurley, leader of Veterans for Kerry, was asked if Kerry's first Purple Heart could have been self inflicted, he replied that "anything is possible". This is not equivalent to the Kerry Campaign panicking, sorry.

3) Couldn't find any data to back you up or contradict you here.

4) Kerry's official statement is that the journal entry referred to his crewmen on his first swift boat, and not to himself. Since I haven't seen anything more than a small bite of text, I cannot be certain.

The only documentation that backs up Kerry is an after action report that he most likely wrote up

Actually, while the Swift Veterans claim that the "JKW" initials on the report are evidence that kerry wrote it, Kerry's initials are "JFK", and a Washington Post investigation found that these initials were also on several documents unrelated to Kerry. I'd say that this is strong evidence that Kerry did *not* write the reports.

He was the other one to win the bronze star out of all of this.

Also, the person who affirmed that there was enemy fire was his own petty officer. And yeah, the complete lack of evidence for most of their claims is a real problem. It's cute to say that they're "sticking to their guns", but really, they're just sticking out their index fingers and yelling "bang bang!"

 

[HAOHMARU]

Ok, but Stoge...half the stuff you are saying Thurlow said are from Matthews questions.

From that dialouge, Thurlow's personal observations were that Kerry intended to be a war hero and get out early.

No mention of "medal of honor" or going to "Vietnam with the sole intent of lying" and "then get out early to run for office."

I'm not disputing that Thrulow thinks that Kerry wanted to get out of Vietnam early (as I have said in a previous post)...many others have said this as well.

 

[StoOgE]

No, Thurlow said "Im saying that he had a plan that included not only being a war hero but getting an early out".

Thurlow clearly mentions becoming a war hero as part of Kerry's plan, that would include the medals of honor. He also does not refute anything that Mathews says (and in other interviews, has expressed EVERYTHING Matthews said as his own personal view.. Im not going to look those up however.. these quotes are sufficient evidence of his views to anyone no trying to write them off as nothing)

 

[HAOHMARU]

Mumbles,

Some good counter points. About the confusion of Cambodia...I believe there were 2 parts of Cambodia in 2 different geographic regions that were patroled by the swift boat group. The times Kerry claims he was in Cambodia have been proven false. He was 40-50 miles from the border. The other time he was operating near Cambodia he was on the border, but I don't think he actually crossed over. There were 2 different rivers near Cambodia that they were operating and two differeent times, I can't remember the names. I'm a little shaky on that info, but that is how I remember it.

Actually, while the Swift Veterans claim that the "JKW" initials on the report are evidence that kerry wrote it, Kerry's initials are "JFK", and a Washington Post investigation found that these initials were also on several documents unrelated to Kerry. I'd say that this is strong evidence that Kerry did *not* write the reports.

I personally haven't seen anybody from the SBVFT claim this, but good point if true.

 

[HAOHMARU]

No, Thurlow said "Im saying that he had a plan that included not only being a war hero but getting an early out".

Yea, I agree. I've stated that in my post already.

Thurlow clearly mentions becoming a war hero as part of Kerry's plan, that would include the medals of honor.

WTF...um, no. Why are you putting words into his mouth. Thurlow never said Kerry was after the Medal of Honor.

He also does not refute anything that Mathews says (and in other interviews, has expressed EVERYTHING Matthews said as his own personal view.. Im not going to look those up however.. these quotes are sufficient evidence of his views to anyone no trying to write them off as nothing)

He doesn't refute anything becuase Mathews is asking him questions...not making statements.

Edit: He did refute one statement:

MATTHEWS: These are after-the-fact observations. You say he had a plan ahead of time to make himself a war hero to get elected to office.

THURLOW: I‘m saying that he had a plan that included not only being a war hero but getting an early out.

And what other interviews are you reffering to? I've never seen them.

 

[Cerebral Palsy]

Just so we know how accurate these Swift Boat Liar Guys are:

Swift Boat Accounts Incomplete (Washington Post)


Then and now:


Washington Monthly

Quote:
Roy Hoffman, today: "John Kerry has not been honest."
Roy Hoffman, 2003: "I am not going to say anything negative about him — he's a good man."

Adrian Lonsdale, today: "He lacks the capacity to lead."
Adrian Lonsdale, 1996: "He was among the finest of those Swift boat drivers."

George Elliot, today: "John Kerry has not been honest about what happened in Vietnam."
George Elliot, 1996: "The fact that he chased an armed enemy down is something not to be looked down upon, but it was an act of courage."

Larry Thurlow, today: "...there was no hostile enemy fire directed at my boat or at any of the five boats operating on the river that day."
Larry Thurlow's Bronze Star citation, 1969: "...all units began receiving enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire from the river banks."

Dr. Louis Letson, today: "I know John Kerry is lying about his first Purple Heart because I treated him for that injury."
Medical records, 1968: "Dr. Letson's name does not appear on any of the medical records for Mr. Kerry. Under 'person administering treatment' for the injury, the form is signed by a medic, J. C. Carreon, who died several years ago."

Grant Hibbard, today: "He betrayed all his shipmates. He lied before the Senate."
Hibbard's evaluation of Kerry, 1968: "Mr. Hibbard gave Mr. Kerry the highest rating of 'one of the top few' in three categories—initiative, cooperation and personal behavior. He gave Mr. Kerry the second-best rating, 'above the majority,' in military bearing."

Fucking A, if Kerry would just stop flip-flopping and answer the questions!!!!

 

[Nerevar]

To be honest, no I haven't. Educate me please. (and know I could have lied or have looked it up myself...I'd really like to know if you can refrain from personal attacks. Not saying you would...that is just my standpoint.)

It's (more or less) how you deal with information that is presented to you that contradicts your generally accepted worldview. For the majority of people in the world, this involves rejecting evidence that contradicts what you believe to be true, no matter how much evidence is presented to the contrary. I'm referring to it in this case because you instantly reject any evidence that suggests Bush somehow might have skipped out or shirked his duty because it contradicts your view that Bush is a decisive leader who understands duty. You readily accept any evidence that villifies Kerry because you believe he is inherently untrustworthy. You neglect that both of these claims have relatively equal merit (i.e. none) but yet you stand strongly by one claim and quickly reject the other. It's not rocket science to figure out why this is.


And why the hell are people still discussing this? These "swift boat veterans" have been debunked so many times it's ridiculous. They are almost entirely made up of ex-veterans who have been trying to tear down Kerry's image since Vietnam. That's 40 years. These people have no more information about Kerry than you or I - they didn't serve with him, they didn't go into combat with him, and they certainly aren't "friends" of his. They have hated him since he went in front of Congress to testify against the Vietnam War and the majority of their claims rest on how they were "personally hurt" by his testimony. How does that carry any weight whatsoever?

 

[homerhendrix]

I don't think Bush has ever made his Air National Guard service a reason to elect him for President.

Kerry's DNC speech was almost all about his Vietnam service, with very little time being devoted to his senate record. This is the reason that such a big deal is being made of his service.

I honestly don't think it should be an issue, afterall he did go into military service which is more than what I can say, but that is the reason (imo anyway) that people are grabbing onto this story.

 

[Cerebral Palsy]

I don't think Bush has ever made his Air National Guard service a reason to elect him for President.

You know why? Because it should be a reason to not elect him. At least Kerry can prove he was in Vietnam, and didn't ditch his country. Not one person can say the same for the "time" Bush served in the National Guard.

 

[border]

Kerry's DNC speech went on and on for quite a while about his plans for the country, the things he feels need fixing, etc. I don't get how people claim that it was nothing but "I'm a Veteran, vote for me!"

 

[Makura]

Quote:
Roy Hoffman, today: "John Kerry has not been honest."
Roy Hoffman, 2003: "I am not going to say anything negative about him — he's a good man."

Adrian Lonsdale, today: "He lacks the capacity to lead."
Adrian Lonsdale, 1996: "He was among the finest of those Swift boat drivers."

George Elliot, today: "John Kerry has not been honest about what happened in Vietnam."
George Elliot, 1996: "The fact that he chased an armed enemy down is something not to be looked down upon, but it was an act of courage."

Larry Thurlow, today: "...there was no hostile enemy fire directed at my boat or at any of the five boats operating on the river that day."
Larry Thurlow's Bronze Star citation, 1969: "...all units began receiving enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire from the river banks."

Dr. Louis Letson, today: "I know John Kerry is lying about his first Purple Heart because I treated him for that injury."
Medical records, 1968: "Dr. Letson's name does not appear on any of the medical records for Mr. Kerry. Under 'person administering treatment' for the injury, the form is signed by a medic, J. C. Carreon, who died several years ago."

Grant Hibbard, today: "He betrayed all his shipmates. He lied before the Senate."
Hibbard's evaluation of Kerry, 1968: "Mr. Hibbard gave Mr. Kerry the highest rating of 'one of the top few' in three categories—initiative, cooperation and personal behavior. He gave Mr. Kerry the second-best rating, 'above the majority,' in military bearing."

It's interesting to note that for every one of these examples there is a counterpoint, but the press doesn't seem interested in that. It would appear that once they became comfortable that the SwiftVets had been "debunked" they drop the story and repeat the same deprecated memes, ad nauseum.

 

[Journeywalker]

HOAH-you haven't read the entire interview, have you? Regardless of what Matthews says, Thurlow comes off as the conspiracy theorist.

LARRY THURLOW, ANTI-KERRY SWIFT BOAT VETERAN: Mr. Matthews, the main reason I say that is because it became apparent early on that John Kerry had a master plan that went far beyond the service in the swift boats, and because of the fact that he was trying to engineer a record, so to speak, for himself, he was not a trustworthy member of a very tightly-knit unit that counted on each other at every second. And once it became apparent that he had this plan that kind of excluded what was required of us at certain times, it became apparent to me that you could not count on him.

What about "master plan" is unclear?

Here's from the NYtimes article: "Several veterans insist that Mr. Kerry wrote his own reports, pointing to the initials K. J. W. on one of the reports and saying they are Mr. Kerry's. "What's the W for, I cannot answer," said Larry Thurlow, who said his boat was 50 to 60 yards from Mr. Kerry's. Mr. Kerry's middle initial is F, and a Navy official said the initials refer to the person who had received the report at headquarters, not the author."

 

[Makura]

Kerry's DNC speech went on and on for quite a while about his plans for the country, the things he feels need fixing, etc. I don't get how people claim that it was nothing but "I'm a Veteran, vote for me!"

I think it was the salute and "reporting for duty" keynote of the speech that gave that impression.

 

[Nerevar]

It's interesting to note that for every one of these examples there is a counterpoint, but the press doesn't seem interested in that. It would appear that once they became comfortable that the SwiftVets had been "debunked" they drop the story and repeat the same deprecated memes, ad nauseum.

It's because the media is run by liberals!

 

[firex]

If only everything could be cherry picked, it would make life so much easier.

 

[border]

I think it was the salute and "reporting for duty" keynote of the speech that gave that impression.

So one comment and gesture at the beginning of the speech somehow negates the 10 or 20 minutes he spent talking about all manner of other issues?

Here's the full text for anybody that cares to see just what Kerry talked about:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25678-2004Jul29.html

There are a few allusions to his time spent in Vietnam, but I would hardly say that it was the focus.

 

[Makura]

So one comment and gesture at the beginning of the speech somehow negates the 10 or 20 minutes he spent talking about all manner of other issues?

Whether it was intended or not, that's the impact it had.

 

[Makura]

You know why? Because it should be a reason to not elect him. At least Kerry can prove he was in Vietnam, and didn't ditch his country. Not one person can say the same for the "time" Bush served in the National Guard.

Is there a counterpoint to the dissambling of this apparent myth by the New York Times piece?

Have there been any valid responses to this and other proof/points that would keep the issue alive?:
Honorable discharge papers: http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/Doc21.gif
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F70817FD3D5D0C708CDDA80994D8404482
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1064541/posts

 

[Nerevar]

Is there a counterpoint to the dissambling of this apparent myth by the New York Times piece?

I want to believe, I want to believe, I want to believe.











Oh, I'm sorry, I was referring to your argument about Kerry, not the other way around.

 

[Makura]

I want to believe, I want to believe, I want to believe.











Oh, I'm sorry, I was referring to your argument about Kerry, not the other way around.

http://forums.gaming-age.com/showthread.php?t=11782

 

[Nerevar]

http://forums.gaming-age.com/showthread.php?t=11782

apparently, you ignored my point about cognitive dissonance. Maybe you should go back and reread it. It applies to you much more strongly than it did to HAOHMARU. Regardless, you come across just as much as grabbing at straws as someone who claims that Bush never served during his service time does to you, because you're basing your arguments on baseless accusations made by people who really have no knowledge of Kerry or his service in Vietnam.

 

[MetatronM]

I personally think 527s are ruining this election and the integrity of the electoral process, and it is going both ways. I actually, believe it or not, side with the official Bush line of condemning all 527s.

The fact that this election now has NOTHING to do with Iraq or the economy or anything else of current import is absolutely incredible to me.

It's more like a middle school class president election than a US Presidential election. The kids are just bigger and more obnoxious.


EDIT: As a side note, the LA Times is reporting that Bush is now leading Kerry in the polls and that these Swift Boat ads are the reason for Kerry's drop off.

 

[brooklyngooner]

Makura, how old are you, if you don't mind my asking?

 

[KingV]

I love how easily the neo-cons in this thread flock to any minutae that implies that Kerry might've misrepresented his service time, yet ask no questions about the fact that nobody has verified Bush's time of "service" during the Vietnam War. It's just about the worst double standard you can find.

At least a few of of the more conservative types, are actually in the military and realize a couple of things.

1) He was honorably discharged, which would not have happened had he been AWOL. I realize that there are some prior enlisted guys like the DC sniper and Don Imus that were brought up on UCMJ or civilian charges and received an honourable discharge. That's great, it doesn't work that way for Officers. The expectations of personal conduct are higher. I'm willing to accept, that since he was getting out of the guard anyway, that he may have had implicit permission to just no show for an extended period of time. We don't really know however, because there's no records saying he was unaccounted for either.

2) I grew up in Navy family, they've lost my medical records twice. I'm now in the Navy and they've lost all records that I've had any vaccinations. I know many guys that have had all of their security clearance paper work misplaced. It's not uncommon for the Navy to lose stuff, why would it be uncommon for the National Guard to?

3) The charge is based on his CO at the time not remembering seeing him. I doubt my CO knows my name, I work over 60 hours a week. Bush worked what, one weekend every month? He was a 2nd Lieutenant. His O-6, or O-7 CO probably gave two shits about this Junior Officer that was qualified for a plane that his squadron didn't have any of.

4) Some of the other charges stemming around Bush's military service are inane. The site awolbush.com charges that he was fraudulently wearing an expert marksmanship ribbon and a meritorious unit commendation. Please, that's absurd. Those are not exactly the type of ribbons that bring you tons of respect. You could probably pin either of those on and no one would be the wiser, but nobody would because it would be idiotic. Not that these aren't something to be proud of, but they're certainly not worth risking your career over as they are extremely common place awards, the marksmanship award in particular.

 

[KingV]

I personally think 527s are ruining this election and the integrity of the electoral process, and it is going both ways. I actually, believe it or not, side with the official Bush line of condemning all 527s.

The fact that this election now has NOTHING to do with Iraq or the economy or anything else of current import is absolutely incredible to me.

It's more like a middle school class president election than a US Presidential election. The kids are just bigger and more obnoxious.


EDIT: As a side note, the LA Times is reporting that Bush is now leading Kerry in the polls and that these Swift Boat ads are the reason for Kerry's drop off.

I agree wholeheartedly. The 527's have dragged the election down into a mudslinging match. The Republicans have the Swift Vets and the Dems have Michael Moore and MoveOn.org. The best part is that both sides look bad because the ads look like they are supported by the candidates themselves, even when they are not.

 

[3rdman]

I agree wholeheartedly. The 527's have dragged the election down into a mudslinging match. The Republicans have the Swift Vets and the Dems have Michael Moore and MoveOn.org. The best part is that both sides look bad because the ads look like they are supported by the candidates themselves, even when they are not.

Michael Moore has nothing to do with any 527's.