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[whytemyke]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/19/katrina.clinton/index.html

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Former President Clinton believes the Democrats should pounce on and exploit President Bush's refusal to hike taxes to finance Hurricane Katrina relief efforts and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

"They should continue to oppose it, and they should make it an issue in the 2006 election, and they should make it an issue in the 2008 election," said Clinton, interviewed on Sunday by George Stephanopoulos on ABC's "This Week."

"I think it's very important that Americans understand... tax cuts are always popular, but about half of these tax cuts since 2001 have gone to people in my income group, the top 1 percent. I've gotten four tax cuts. They're responsible for this big structural deficit, and they're not going away, the deficits aren't."

Clinton said America's deficit has forced the United States to borrow "money from other countries to finance Iraq, Afghanistan, Katrina, and our tax cuts."

"We have never done this before. Never in the history of our republic have we ever financed a conflict, military conflict, by borrowing money from somewhere else."

The former president, who is involved in a Katrina relief fund-raising effort with former President Bush, elaborated on the issue of tax cuts, saying leaders should hope "for the sake of our country that the cows don't come home before we have time to rectify" the problem.

"I mean, sooner or later, just think what would happen if the Chinese -- we're pressing the Chinese now, a country not nearly as rich as America per capita, to keep loaning us money with low interest to cover my tax cut, Iran -- I mean Iraq, Afghanistan, and Katrina. And at the same time to raise the value of their currency so their imports into our country will become more expensive, and our exports to them will become less expensive."

He said the United States depends on Japan, China, Britain, Saudi Arabia and Korea "to basically loan us money every day of the year to cover my tax cut and these conflicts and Katrina."

"I don't think it makes any sense. I think it's wrong."

Clinton's appearance on the show marks the first time he was interviewed by Stephanopoulos, who worked as a senior adviser for policy and strategy in the Clinton administration from 1991 to 1996.

As for his relief efforts with former President Bush, Clinton said $90 million to $100 million have been raised.

Basically I think this is bullshit and if Bush wants to raise taxes we should revolt. I know he's said he won't, but the idea of him renegging on his tax cuts because of this makes me sick. Fuck him if he tries to get away with something like this.... everyone said it was a bad idea to go through with his tax cuts in the first place, and now that it's come back to be proven to him how bad of an idea it is, he wants to raise taxes? Piss on that.

And if the Democrats run with this as their major theme in 2006, rest assured that they'll be running themselves right out of office and straight into 'marginal party' territory.

EDIT: I dunno... if the only tax hike Clinton is supporting is one for that top income class, I could at least support that. But to totally renege the tax cuts across the board that Bush gave? Nope. Bush made his bed, now he can lie in it. and I think the fact that we're borrowing money to support this war is a joke unto itself. I fear for this country... I really do.

 

[DarienA]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/19/katrina.clinton/index.html


Basically I think this is bullshit and if Bush wants to raise taxes we should revolt. I know he's said he won't, but the idea of him renegging on his tax cuts because of this makes me sick. Fuck him if he tries to get away with something like this.... everyone said it was a bad idea to go through with his tax cuts in the first place, and now that it's come back to be proven to him how bad of an idea it is, he wants to raise taxes? Piss on that.

And if the Democrats run with this as their major theme in 2006, rest assured that they'll be running themselves right out of office and straight into 'marginal party' territory.

Did those tax cuts help you or anyone you know?

 

[LakeEarth]

"I think it's very important that Americans understand... tax cuts are always popular, but about half of these tax cuts since 2001 have gone to people in my income group, the top 1 percent. I've gotten four tax cuts. They're responsible for this big structural deficit, and they're not going away, the deficits aren't."

Ex-Presidents have to pay tax? That sucks.

 

[whytemyke]

Did those tax cuts help you or anyone you know?

Yeah. I'm referring to that huge one back in 2001 where everyone got like between 300-1000 bucks for each kid they had in school. It was a cheap move at a popularity pull for Bush. He should lie in his bed.

 

[Rocket9]

Higher taxes is not the end of the world.

Geez...

 

[DarienA]

It's funny Clinton can get away with saying something like because he's an Ex-President... most people just treat Ex-President as like this strange wonderful thing behind glass... uh huh... uh huh... that's nice... run along now...

 

[Cerebral Palsy]

We should raise taxes for our lower/middle income citizens, and cut taxes for the rich in the wake of Katrina, says Bush.

 

[G4life98]

somebody is going to have to raise taxes eventually, if we want a balanced budget.

this country would be better off financially if they atleast repealed the taxcuts for the top 30%

 

[Triumph]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/19/katrina.clinton/index.html


Basically I think this is bullshit and if Bush wants to raise taxes we should revolt. I know he's said he won't, but the idea of him renegging on his tax cuts because of this makes me sick. Fuck him if he tries to get away with something like this.... everyone said it was a bad idea to go through with his tax cuts in the first place, and now that it's come back to be proven to him how bad of an idea it is, he wants to raise taxes? Piss on that.

And if the Democrats run with this as their major theme in 2006, rest assured that they'll be running themselves right out of office and straight into 'marginal party' territory.

EDIT: I dunno... if the only tax hike Clinton is supporting is one for that top income class, I could at least support that. But to totally renege the tax cuts across the board that Bush gave? Nope. Bush made his bed, now he can lie in it. and I think the fact that we're borrowing money to support this war is a joke unto itself. I fear for this country... I really do.

You know, I don't think he's advocating repealing ALL of Bush's tax cuts. Just the ones on the wealthiest Americans(like he said, the top 1%).

Also, your attitude makes no sense. "We fucked up but let's not change anything! Grr! That'll learn 'em!"

 

[Cauliflower of Love]

I've gotten four tax cuts

:lol

What a wonderful state of affairs we're in.

 

[teiresias]

It's funny Clinton can get away with saying something like because he's an Ex-President... most people just treat Ex-President as like this strange wonderful thing behind glass... uh huh... uh huh... that's nice... run along now...

Well, it's because Clinton was the last competent President we've had.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Roll back the taxes on the top 1-2%? Outrageous! Why, if those folks had to pay as much in taxes as they did in the 90s, just imagine the damage to our economy.

What? You say the economy was stronger in the 90s?

Hmmm.

Nah, better to keep up the deficit spending. The typical american idiot won't realize that we're screwing over the middle class, and by the time that taxes are inevitably raised due to our poor fiscal policy, we'll manage to blame it on the Democrats.

 

[DarienA]

Well, it's because Clinton was the last competent President we've had.

I'm just saying most folks politely ignore the verbage from all past presidents.

 

[distantmantra]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/19/katrina.clinton/index.html


Basically I think this is bullshit and if Bush wants to raise taxes we should revolt. I know he's said he won't, but the idea of him renegging on his tax cuts because of this makes me sick. Fuck him if he tries to get away with something like this.... everyone said it was a bad idea to go through with his tax cuts in the first place, and now that it's come back to be proven to him how bad of an idea it is, he wants to raise taxes? Piss on that.

And if the Democrats run with this as their major theme in 2006, rest assured that they'll be running themselves right out of office and straight into 'marginal party' territory.

EDIT: I dunno... if the only tax hike Clinton is supporting is one for that top income class, I could at least support that. But to totally renege the tax cuts across the board that Bush gave? Nope. Bush made his bed, now he can lie in it. and I think the fact that we're borrowing money to support this war is a joke unto itself. I fear for this country... I really do.

I'm having a hard time following your train of thought. You appear to agree that Bush made a huge mistake with the tax cuts... but you're against taking those cuts away? If Bush made his bed and has to lie in it, so does the rest of the country.

What you said makes no sense to me, and apparently to some others here as well.

 

[scorcho]

Yeah. I'm referring to that huge one back in 2001 where everyone got like between 300-1000 bucks for each kid they had in school. It was a cheap move at a popularity pull for Bush. He should lie in his bed.

what is that supposed to mean? it obviously wasn't a 'cheap' move at the cost of hundreds of millions (if not billions) of federal income at a time when federal spending has been increasing dramatically.

it's sad that you don't like tax increases - no one does. however, if it comes at a time of escalating budgets and record deficits, the government needs to make sure that it isn't hemoraging uncontrollably. if that necessitates a tax increase, so be it. i don't see how Bush has no right to or should 'lie in his bed' at the detriment to the country's future.

 

[Instigator]

I'm having a hard time following your train of thought. You appear to agree that Bush made a huge mistake with the tax cuts... but you're against taking those cuts away? If Bush made his bed and has to lie in it, so does the rest of the country.

What you said makes no sense to me, and apparently to some others here as well.

It can only mean more deficits or cut some programs. Probably welfare benefits for those lazy folks who just don't feel like working. They don't vote for Bush anyway.

 

[bob_arctor]

Pre-Katrina:

Probably welfare benefits for those lazy folks who just don't feel like working.

Post-Katrina:

Probably welfare benefits for those lazy folks who just don't feel like swimming.

 

[Drensch]

And if the Democrats run with this as their major theme in 2006, rest assured that they'll be running themselves right out of office and straight into 'marginal party' territory.

Take a look at the polling on the issue. Well before Katrina and the Iraq fiasco, Americans were in favor of repealing the tax cuts. That has only intensified.

 

[DarienA]

It can only mean more deficits or cut some programs. Probably welfare benefits for those lazy folks who just don't feel like working. They don't vote for Bush anyway.

Sometimes I think you take your nick too far...

 

[whytemyke]

Also, your attitude makes no sense. "We fucked up but let's not change anything! Grr! That'll learn 'em!"

It's not even that. It's that the funding for this entire thing is a disaster strictly because (at least in part) of Bush's federal spending. He chose to spend more on various other activities than he did on keeping his own constituents safe. That's fine... his choice as a leader. But I will not support a tax hike until somebody new comes into office to raise them. His platform was tax cuts... fine. We have taxcuts. New platform? new leader.

I'm honestly so sick of all this bullshit that dubya gets away with. Fire Rove? Oooh, how about a new supreme court appointment! Citizen pressure against Iraq? Uh oh, hurricane. Horrible response to hurricane? Well I take blame for it.

His administration has been marked with fuckup after fuckup, and for me to accept him raising taxes again would mean that I accept him admitting he fucked up in cutting them. So the only way I'll not be completely against him raising taxes for ANYONE is if either A) He comes out and says he fucked up, or B) There's a different president pushing the tax hike.

Simply put- I want him to be held accountable for his actions for ONCE in his Presidency.

what is that supposed to mean? it obviously wasn't a 'cheap' move at the cost of hundreds of millions (if not billions) of federal income at a time when federal spending has been increasing dramatically.

I meant politically cheap, kind of like that whole sudden 'rumor' of McCain having a bastard black kid two nights before the South Carolina primary in 2000. Cheap as in outing a CIA Operative because her husband spoke against the President's politics. Cheap as in flying into Baghdad on Thanksgiving for a 4 hour publicity stunt with 100 of the 200,000 troops over there.

Not cheap as in cost.

 

[Incognito]

Deficit is entirely Clinton's fault anyway.

http://thinkprogress.org/2005/09/19/clintons-fault/

Forget the trillions in tax cuts, $200 billion for the war in Iraq and pork-laden spending bills. America’s budget problems are all President Clinton’s fault. Former Rep. Bob Livingston explains:

Movie

Livingston makes a couple of points, both of which are completely ridiculous:

"nfortunately, you know, we had a tremendous amount of burden that was handed to us by the Clinton administration with the growth of the government scandals…"

I’m not familiar with the “growth of government scandals.” I do know that under Clinton the federal workforce was cut by 377,000 to it’s lowest level since 1960. During the Clinton years, government grew slower than any time since the Eisenhower Administration. The size of government actually shrank relative to the size of the economy.

On to point #2:

" [T]hen we got hit by 9/11, terrorist action which was due to the growth of the very radical Muslim element and led by Osama Bin Laden which we could have taken out in the last decade. "

Interesting point Congressman. So when Clinton attacked al-Qaeda terrorist sites in Afghanistan in an effort to kill Bin Laden you must have been all for it, right? Here’s Livingston on those efforts in the Associated Press on 9/20/98:

" To invert a phrase, life often imitates art and ‘”Wag the Dog” was a popular movie six months ago."

 

[Shinobi]

A related article...

White House seeks spending cuts to pay for Katrina
Mon Sep 19, 2005 10:06 PM BST

By Steve Holland

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The White House argued on Monday that the billions needed for post-Katrina rebuilding will have only a short-term impact on the U.S. budget deficit as President George W. Bush came under fresh attack for his handling of the crisis.

A maverick Republican senator, Ohio's George Voinovich, said spending cuts alone will not cover the cost of post-Katrina reconstruction and "we've got to get real" about tax cuts and the enormous debt the country is amassing.

A CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll said Bush's job approval had sagged to 40 percent. Some 41 percent approved of his handling of the hurricane, while 58 percent disapproved. Only 35 percent approved of Bush's handling of the economy.

"Katrina stripped away any image of competence and exposed to all the true heart and nature of this administration," Massachusetts Democratic Sen. John Kerry, who lost the presidential race to Bush last year, said in a withering speech prepared for delivery at Brown University.

Estimates of Katrina's cost to the economy run as high as $200 billion and paying for hurricane recovery and rebuilding comes as Bush tries to extend tax cuts, fund the Iraq war and pay for a Medicare prescription drug benefit, among other costly initiatives. On Monday, NASA outlined a $104 billion plan to send Americans back to the moon.

"The fact of the matter is we have the war in Iraq, we have Katrina, we have the (Medicare) prescription drug benefits" of uncertain cost, Voinovich told reporters.

The White House has acknowledged much of the money needed in the aftermath of Katrina will be borrowed, and will deepen the deficit, but defended the move against criticism from a number of Democrats, including former President Bill Clinton.

"The costs we're talking about related to Katrina are going to have a short-term impact on the deficit. They're one-time costs. But we believe we can continue to meet the president's commitment to halve the deficit by 2009," said White House spokesman Scott McClellan. lol)

He said the White House Office of Management and Budget was working with congressional leaders "to identify additional unnecessary spending that can be cut as well."

Previous attempts to roll back federal spending have proven difficult at best.

The administration had proposed close to $70 billion in savings by reducing the rate of growth and mandatory spending over the next five years, and cutting about $20 billion in discretionary spending in the fiscal year 2006 budget.

In the end, Congress only went along with about $35 billion in savings. McClellan said these cuts were a good starting point.

Bush has ruled out raising taxes to pay for what is expected to be one of the world's largest reconstruction efforts. McClellan also ruled out delaying implementation of the prescription drug program for the elderly for a year, as proposed by Rep. Mike Pence, an Indiana Republican.

Voinovich is siding with Democrats in urging that Bush's tax cuts not be extended, even though he supported the 2003 tax package to help stimulate economic growth.

He said Social Security and other government trust funds mask the true size of federal borrowing and mounting debt and proposed walling that money off in a kind of "lockbox" so the government could not tap those funds.

(Additional reporting by Donna Smith and Tabassum Zakaria)

© Reuters 2005. All Rights Reserved.

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/new...IC962737_RTRUKOC_0_US-KATRINA-BUSH-BUDGET.xml

There are some serious crack users in this adminstration...

 

[SantaC]

Well, it's because Clinton was the last competent President we've had.

Clinton was a great president. I think the US has never been more popular around the world when Clinton ruled.

 

[Widfara]

I propose eliminating all taxes for everyone. I propose that the federal government does nothing ever again. I propose the Articles of Confederation.

 

[Phoenix]

A related article...



http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/new...IC962737_RTRUKOC_0_US-KATRINA-BUSH-BUDGET.xml

There are some serious crack users in this adminstration...

Just in government in general. They must be getting some bad crack because they're getting all stupid and stuff.

You have less money, you set yourself up to collect less money, and you increase spending - but you're going to cut the deficit in half? Maybe in the magic numbers general accounting office way - sure.

 

[Incognito]

Another Bush cronie bites the dust...

http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=53613

The Office of Federal Procurement Policy handles procurement policy for the White House's Office of Management and Budget.

Until Friday the Administrator of the office was David Hossein Safavian.

Today he was arrested on a three count indictment.

David Hossein Safavian was arrested today based on a three- count criminal complaint filed at federal court in Washington, D.C. The complaint charges Safavian with making false statements to a GSA ethics officer and the GSA-OIG, along with obstruction of a GSA-OIG investigation.

The affidavit filed in support of the criminal complaint alleges that from May 16, 2002 until January 10, 2004, Safavian served as Chief of Staff at the GSA. During that time he allegedly aided a Washington D.C. lobbyist in the lobbyist's attempts to acquire GSA-controlled property in and around Washington, D.C. In August 2002, this lobbyist allegedly took Safavian and others on a golf trip to Scotland.

The false statement and obstruction of the investigation charges relate to Safavian's statements to a GSA ethics officer and the GSA-OIG that the lobbyist had no business with GSA prior to the August 2002 golf trip. According to the affidavit, Safavian concealed the fact that the lobbyist had business before GSA prior to the August 2002 golf trip, and that Safavian was aiding the lobbyist in his attempts to do business with GSA.

Lobbyist = Abramoff

 

[ronito]

If paying slightly higher taxes could pay off the deficit in 10 years I'd do it. Our kids deserve better from our generation. Honestly to even think of giving the rich yet another tax cut after the war and hurricane Katrina shows how much in lala land Dear Leader is.

 

[teh_pwn]

We should raise taxes.

No more of this big government, small taxes bullshit from Bush. Take some fucking responsibility and pay your bill.

People today have such a strong sense of entitlement. It's driving individual debt and now our country's.

 

[Drensch]

"nfortunately, you know, we had a tremendous amount of burden that was handed to us by the Clinton administration with the growth of the government scandals…"

This coming from the fucker who was boning other women on the side whilst demanding Clinton's impeachment for the same.

 

[GaimeGuy]

It's not even that. It's that the funding for this entire thing is a disaster strictly because (at least in part) of Bush's federal spending. He chose to spend more on various other activities than he did on keeping his own constituents safe. That's fine... his choice as a leader. But I will not support a tax hike until somebody new comes into office to raise them. His platform was tax cuts... fine. We have taxcuts. New platform? new leader.

I'm honestly so sick of all this bullshit that dubya gets away with. Fire Rove? Oooh, how about a new supreme court appointment! Citizen pressure against Iraq? Uh oh, hurricane. Horrible response to hurricane? Well I take blame for it.

His administration has been marked with fuckup after fuckup, and for me to accept him raising taxes again would mean that I accept him admitting he fucked up in cutting them. So the only way I'll not be completely against him raising taxes for ANYONE is if either A) He comes out and says he fucked up, or B) There's a different president pushing the tax hike.

Simply put- I want him to be held accountable for his actions for ONCE in his Presidency.

I meant politically cheap, kind of like that whole sudden 'rumor' of McCain having a bastard black kid two nights before the South Carolina primary in 2000. Cheap as in outing a CIA Operative because her husband spoke against the President's politics. Cheap as in flying into Baghdad on Thanksgiving for a 4 hour publicity stunt with 100 of the 200,000 troops over there.

Not cheap as in cost.

So... you would rather have someone be wrong and stick to their guns than someone be wrong, recognize their mistakes, and attempt to fix them?

Sounds just like the bush administration.

 

[whytemyke]

So... you would rather have someone be wrong and stick to their guns than someone be wrong, recognize their mistakes, and attempt to fix them?

Sounds just like the bush administration.

Depends on the slant you look at it. I want Bush to be held accountable for fucking up. I'm sick of people just letting him get away with fucking up and then backing off. He won't learn anything that way and he'll keep doing it, blowing his fuckups off as one-time incidents.

Christ. Letting him just fix his mistakes without explaining them or apologizing for them is why the DNC is a weak, pussy party and loses elections. From top to bottom they have no sense of identity and are always willing to let Bush go for the bare minimum so that they can be happy. I used to agree with this, but not anymore. His approval rating is struggling to stay above 40 points, and the DNC could run the table in 06 if they had somebody that knew what the fuck they were doing and how to go after Bush like the GOP went after Clinton in 98.

I'm honestly sick of this shit. I want him held accountable, and if that means that we're going to nick our budget even more, so be it. I want him dragged over the coals for his irresponsible Presidency. I'm sorry that most of you are willing to look at the big picture and the overall good, but that overall good will only pave the way for more bad things to happen down the road. I cannot agree with the rest of my liberal brethren on this issue. No tax hike support until I see an APOLOGY from the President to the nation for being fiscally irresponsible throughout his time in office.

Is it selfish? You bet. But maybe of the left half of this country got a little more selfish and little less complacent, we wouldn't be in as bad of shape as we're in, hm?

 

[Shinobi]

I understand what whytemyke is saying...I just think it's fucked. :lol

 

[Diablos]

DAMN LIBRULS! RAISING OUR TAXES!

 

[scorcho]

Depends on the slant you look at it. I want Bush to be held accountable for fucking up. I'm sick of people just letting him get away with fucking up and then backing off. He won't learn anything that way and he'll keep doing it, blowing his fuckups off as one-time incidents.

he won't learn anything regardless - he's term-limited. besides, 'moral victories', which all this really is, matters little in the face of economic hardships and spiraling debt.

edit: imagine if your credo was taken in times of social upheaval - let's not help those in New Orleans. they were too poor to leave and deserve the mess they're in now. they should've had the common sense to be born white and have better jobs and perfect diction. i'm going to leave my liberal bretheren and DEMAND that the destitute APOLOGIZE for being so damn destitute-d before we give them any federal aid whatsoever.

really, your political intuition matches that of a rock. it's times like this that i think Plato was right - voting should be a privilege and not a right.

 

[Instigator]

Sometimes I think you take your nick too far...

Not when the guy who started this topic is so dead set against any tax increase. I had to talk in his language.

 

[AssMan]

Clinton raised more taxes than any president. Wouldn't doubt his rhetoric. :lol

 

[AirBrian]

Fuck raising taxes.

There are 2 simple solutions that would solve all of our problems:

1) Fix the corporate tax laws;

2) Reduce the size of the federal government.

Unfortunately, neither of these will ever happen as long as a Democrat or Republican is in office.

 

[Diablos]

I saw a cat get run over by a car today.
I BLAME LIBRULS.

 

[Lo-Volt]

 

[fortified_concept]

Let me get this straight, I didn't know that, USA is borrowing money from China?

 

[whytemyke]

he won't learn anything regardless - he's term-limited. besides, 'moral victories', which all this really is, matters little in the face of economic hardships and spiraling debt.

edit: imagine if your credo was taken in times of social upheaval - let's not help those in New Orleans. they were too poor to leave and deserve the mess they're in now. they should've had the common sense to be born white and have better jobs and perfect diction. i'm going to leave my liberal bretheren and DEMAND that the destitute APOLOGIZE for being so damn destitute-d before we give them any federal aid whatsoever.

really, your political intuition matches that of a rock. it's times like this that i think Plato was right - voting should be a privilege and not a right.

Its cool if you think my political intuition matches 'that of a rock'... because your debating skills clearly do. You're comparing a knowing, tangible move by the Bush administration to lower taxes, and trying to apply the same logic to POVERTY, with the only real link between the two as taxes. :lol good one, guy.

I'll start sweating when intelligent people start telling me that I'm stupid.

Furthermore... anyone who thinks that tax hikes will do anything to stop foreign ownership of the USD and our overall position in the global market is an idiot and probably shouldn't be commenting on international political economy, or domestic political economy, in the first place. Our economy is based on our businesses, which means our money is based on our businesses, which is why everytime the stock market starts to suck in a big way, it keeps on sucking til someone takes a risk. It's all an illusion, and a tax hike is really just a mark of strength that the federal government has over the average taxpayer and their net value. Ugh... it's complicated. But believe me, if you're trying to tie our international debt status to Katrina, it's gonna be about as shitty of logic to those who know what the fuck is going on as the whole "Well not approving Bush for a tax cut is the same as making poor people apologize for being poor" angle. It won't work to anyone who knows anything.

I'm a selfish bastard, scorcho, and you could have made me look like a dickhead in many, many ways based on this thread, but you somehow fucked it up. Please, do everyone a favor and don't comment on the intelligence of others, as you have no ground upon which to stand.

I understand what whytemyke is saying...I just think it's fucked. :lol

Yeah, it probably is. But lets get Macchiavellian on this for a second. Does anyone here think that the government doesn't have the resources to fix Katrina? Of course it has the resources... we're waging wars in numerous countries right now, a few of which are needlessly burdened by the American taxpayer when our international allies have already offered their assistance which we've turned down (look at France and Germany for Iraq.)

If this whole 'tax thing' was simply about the US not having the resources to take care of the Katrina victims, then I'd be the first one to say "hike the shit out of the taxes and take care of those people." But it isn't. It's about Bush wanting to have his cake and eat it, too. He wants to continue his pointless, immature spending, and letting him raise taxes would just let it continue. You want to fix the problem? A band-aid tax hike ain't gonna do it. Making the government become fiscally responsible is what will do it.

It's a biiig politics game, and the White House is content to push the average person around. It's just that it seems that nobody is understanding that the people of NO are merely pawns in this shit, and a refusal of a tax hike by me isn't damning them. They were damned the moment a President was elected who decided his place in history books was warranting of a higher price tag than his own people.

 

[maynerd]

Its cool if you think my political intuition matches 'that of a rock'... because your debating skills clearly do. You're comparing a knowing, tangible move by the Bush administration to lower taxes, and trying to apply the same logic to POVERTY, with the only real link between the two as taxes. :lol good one, guy.

I'll start sweating when intelligent people start telling me that I'm stupid.

Furthermore... anyone who thinks that tax hikes will do anything to stop foreign ownership of the USD and our overall position in the global market is an idiot and probably shouldn't be commenting on international political economy, or domestic political economy, in the first place. Our economy is based on our businesses, which means our money is based on our businesses, which is why everytime the stock market starts to suck in a big way, it keeps on sucking til someone takes a risk. It's all an illusion, and a tax hike is really just a mark of strength that the federal government has over the average taxpayer and their net value. Ugh... it's complicated. But believe me, if you're trying to tie our international debt status to Katrina, it's gonna be about as shitty of logic to those who know what the fuck is going on as the whole "Well not approving Bush for a tax cut is the same as making poor people apologize for being poor" angle. It won't work to anyone who knows anything.

I'm a selfish bastard, scorcho, and you could have made me look like a dickhead in many, many ways based on this thread, but you somehow fucked it up. Please, do everyone a favor and don't comment on the intelligence of others, as you have no ground upon which to stand.


Yeah, it probably is. But lets get Macchiavellian on this for a second. Does anyone here think that the government doesn't have the resources to fix Katrina? Of course it has the resources... we're waging wars in numerous countries right now, a few of which are needlessly burdened by the American taxpayer when our international allies have already offered their assistance which we've turned down (look at France and Germany for Iraq.)

If this whole 'tax thing' was simply about the US not having the resources to take care of the Katrina victims, then I'd be the first one to say "hike the shit out of the taxes and take care of those people." But it isn't. It's about Bush wanting to have his cake and eat it, too. He wants to continue his pointless, immature spending, and letting him raise taxes would just let it continue. You want to fix the problem? A band-aid tax hike ain't gonna do it. Making the government become fiscally responsible is what will do it.

It's a biiig politics game, and the White House is content to push the average person around. It's just that it seems that nobody is understanding that the people of NO are merely pawns in this shit, and a refusal of a tax hike by me isn't damning them. They were damned the moment a President was elected who decided his place in history books was warranting of a higher price tag than his own people.

The tax cut never should have happened in the first place. That's all I gotta say about that.

 

[Widfara]

Fuck, any TAX CUT is a good tax cut.

 

[Drensch]

Tax cuts are a joke, any time there is a debt or deficit, or deficient government.

 

[The Shadow]

A related article...



http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/new...IC962737_RTRUKOC_0_US-KATRINA-BUSH-BUDGET.xml

There are some serious crack users in this adminstration...

Well, we know for certain that Bush snorts coke. It wouldn't surprise me.

This administration is in some serious delusion. How can you give a tax rebate or whatever, and then *increase* government spending?

 

[maynerd]

Fuck, any TAX CUT is a good tax cut.

Actually I am specifically talking about the tax cut for the richest people in our country. That should have never happened. The lower class needs a bigger tax cut and so do the middle class. Don't even get me started on the minimum wage.

 

[Lo-Volt]

Let me get this straight, I didn't know that, USA is borrowing money from China?

They hold several hundred billion dollars in U.S. Treasury notes by now, if I remember correctly.

 

[Pimpwerx]

I see where whytemyke is coming from, and agree it's fucked. But you gotta love watching this slow train wreck arrive on the doorstep of the conservatives. Not that they won't weasel their way out of it somehow...again. But those of us who remember can have some more ammo to...uh...bitch on forums like this. Doh! PEACE.

 

[whytemyke]

I see where whytemyke is coming from, and agree it's fucked. But you gotta love watching this slow train wreck arrive on the doorstep of the conservatives. Not that they won't weasel their way out of it somehow...again. But those of us who remember can have some more ammo to...uh...bitch on forums like this. Doh! PEACE.

:lol that's all I have left! Don't you take that from me!

I'm sorry to go and get all high and mighty. And it is important to note that this is a Clinton idea that Bush, so far, is extremely opposed to, regardless of what those around him say. The fact that the top 1% have had 4 tax cuts since Bush has been in office is astounding. Stop those, by any means necessary... but make this stupid ass administration learn responsibility.

I told my friend it like this. Suppose I make 500 bucks a month. I've got 300 bucks in bills to pay, with 200 for myself left over. Now lets say that, oh, I guy an Xbox 360. I'm down to 100 bucks, cuz I chose to buy the 360 instead of doing my responsibility. If a friend loans me the money and says to just get back to him, well, how am I going to learn? I won't. I'll just think that I can go to my friend again the next time I need money. Now imagine how happy that friend would be, loaning you an extra 200, if he was already giving you on average 300 a month. You're not solving any problems by ignoring the major issue- fiscal irresponsibility- you're only passing the buck on to the next person down, which is, unfortunately, something this administration is incredibly good at.

 

[Shinobi]

I agree with one thing...spending restraint (or lack of it) is a far bigger issue then the tax money they're taking off people's cheques. Canada's been pretty damn good at taxing us to the hilt in almost everything, while spending it on relatively little and boasting a surplus. It's a ripoff really.

I think tax cuts (particularly for the rich) is pretty stupid, particularly during tough times. But I'll never suscribe to the idea of just raising taxes even more to cover the losses. I think people would be shocked at how fucking wasteful governments and those freeloading public officials are with our money. Christ, we had a clown up here found guilty of stealing a million and a half in taxpayers money, and he won't even serve a day in jail. It's fucking gross.

BTW, that poll is pretty fucked up...cutting spending in Iraq only works if you're gonna take everyone the fuck outta there. Otherwise those poor souls need every fucking dime they can get. Cutting off the left arm to help the right won't do any good.