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[maharg]

exactly. I have never said they didn't have the right to do so.

however, pulling out support for a war when you initially pledged support might be considered bad form in the view of an ally.

Didn't Bush say major operations were over? Maybe they just didn't get the memo about them starting up again.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Bush's right hand claims he'll work to restore our relations with allies.

Bush's left hand doesn't return a phone call.

 

[Fresh Prince]

Bush wouldn't really listen to any of his 'second tier' allies anyway. The only foreign leader that could hold any sway with him is Blair. I mean he discounted the opinion of most of the UN.

Anway wasn't this Zapatero's way of showing a peace offering?

 

[lachesis]

Well, Bush certainly is an asshole not to return a courtesy phone call. Perhaps Spain's PM personally let him down, but is worth to heighten the Anti-americanism even more in Spain by not doing so? How dumb a leader can be? So careless and irresponsible representing our nation?

lachesis

 

[UltimateMarioMan]

Take THAT Spain! *Shakes fist at Spain*

 

[xsarien]

a) I fail to see what relevance that has here
b) admittedly I know very little about that era. I was in high school and cared nothing for politics.

The relevance is this:

you're right, saddam should have just stayed in power until he had the chance to do something REALLY terrible so then the rest of the world could blame the US for leeaving him in power for so long.

Taking Saddam out, in the view of the elder Bush and his cabinet, posed a greater risk than leaving him in. Partially, well, mostly, he was a known quantity, and had we let the UN inspectors finish their jobs last year, we would've just confirmed what many suspected: That Saddam was all talk and his only support of terrorism manifested itself in the form of him rewarding suicide bombers who attacked Israel. Which, of course, I don't need to remind you, did not represent a clear and present danger to the United States.

 

[Mermandala]

This time I believe Bush, alphabetical order is fair: England, France, Germany, - He's working his way up to Spain.

 

[Socreges]

This time I believe Bush, alphabetical order is fair: England, France, Germany, - He's working his way up to Spain.

I wouldn't want to be Yemen right now.

 

[luxsol]

Well, Bush certainly is an asshole not to return a courtesy phone call. Perhaps Spain's PM personally let him down, but is worth to heighten the Anti-americanism even more in Spain by not doing so? How dumb a leader can be? So careless and irresponsible representing our nation?

So for not returning a call means it's ok for anti-Americanism to happen? Wow, talk about child-like mentality. Both Bush and the Spanish PM reacted really stupidily (Bush not returning the call and the PM taking back his congratulations and quickly saying he supports Kerry). Bush obviously still retains relations with Spain (through the king) and communicating with those (like France) who opposed the War in the first place.

From what I understand, the former PM was going to win the election (even though he supported the war in Iraq) but the bombing made the voters flinch. A nice reactionary choice that led to the Socialist party anti-war stance to win. Caving in when facing a crisis is the poorest thing a government can do, democracy or not.

 

[Che]

I think Bush is too stupid to understand how rude he is sometimes. When our prime minister visited USA and went to the whire house, he and Bush did the usual handshake then Bush tapped the armchair and told him "Sit". The whole situation was looking exactly like Bush was talking to his dog.

 

[Outlaw Pro Mod]

at this "story" and this thread. Just a whole hell of a lot of conjectures and blah blah blah.

 

[cvxfreak]

Bush is really fucked up when it comes to common courtesy.

 

[retardboy]

Oh goodness... Why they hell should he have to return a phone call to someone he doesn't like? Ya ya ya you're going to say because he represents the country, but Bush has always been a person that does what he feels and shows his feelings. Why should he return a call to someone who probably didn't want to call Bush just as much as Bush didn't want to call him? It was just a courtesy call, you actually think he meant congratulations? He probably just wanted to get on Bush's good side after he pissed him off so many times, and Bush wasn't going to let it happen. I'm sure you're the same way. If someone hates you and you get into a position of power and he starts trying to get all friendly, you brush him off. Bush isn't one to hide his feelings and just put on fake thank you calls. Is it really a surprise? I'm sure he's not the only one who would have done that.

 

[Socreges]

Oh goodness... Why they hell should he have to return a phone call to someone he doesn't like? Ya ya ya you're going to say because he represents the country, but Bush has always been a person that does what he feels and shows his feelings. Why should he return a call to someone who probably didn't want to call Bush just as much as Bush didn't want to call him? It was just a courtesy call, you actually think he meant congratulations? He probably just wanted to get on Bush's good side after he pissed him off so many times, and Bush wasn't going to let it happen. I'm sure you're the same way. If someone hates you and you get into a position of power and he starts trying to get all friendly, you brush him off. Bush isn't one to hide his feelings and just put on fake thank you calls. Is it really a surprise? I'm sure he's not the only one who would have done that.

This is international relations, retard, not high school.

 

[retardboy]

Bush doesn't care, nor has he ever.

 

[videogamer]

So for not returning a call means it's ok for anti-Americanism to happen? Wow, talk about child-like mentality.

Link and elaborate

Both Bush and the Spanish PM reacted really stupidily (Bush not returning the call and the PM taking back his congratulations and quickly saying he supports Kerry). Bush obviously still retains relations with Spain (through the king) and communicating with those (like France) who opposed the War in the first place.

From what I understand, the former PM was going to win the election (even though he supported the war in Iraq) but the bombing made the voters flinch. A nice reactionary choice that led to the Socialist party anti-war stance to win. Caving in when facing a crisis is the poorest thing a government can do, democracy or not.

If you had read this thread carefully enough, maybe you would have noticed that Zapatero promised to bring back the troops. I hope you are not advocating that he should have broken his promise.

 

[Zaptruder]

Another class example of how lacking of a president the Americans have once again chosen, and how his legions of supporters just don't get it.

Guys, should really start archiving threads like this... just so we can pull this shit up in 4 years time when the world is in smouldering ruins to say: I TOLD YOU SO! Because that's the only positive we're getting outta suffering along with the idiots that voted for him.

 

[Guileless]

America bashing is electoral gold in Europe, as Zapatero and Schroeder proved. But there are consequences. It's naive to think it doesn't have an effect on the personal relationships of the politicians involved. They're human too.

Spain is free to do whatever it wants in the short term because it knows that the US will guarantee long term global stability regardless of what Spanish political leaders do to help.

 

[videogamer]

America bashing is electoral gold in Europe, as Zapatero and Schroeder proved. But there are consequences. It's naive to think it doesn't have an effect on the personal relationships of the politicians involved. They're human too.

Spain is free to do whatever it wants in the short term because it knows that the US will guarantee long term global stability regardless of what Spanish political leaders do to help.

What consitutuates as "America bashing"? When does criticism become "bashing"?

 

[Socreges]

Spain is free to do whatever it wants in the short term because it knows that the US will guarantee long term global stability regardless of what Spanish political leaders do to help.

What's this now?

 

[reggieandTFE]

He meant, " ...the US will guarantee itself long-term global hegemony."

 

[Guileless]

What consitutuates as "America bashing"? When does criticism become "bashing"?

The words and actions of Schroeder's party during the last German election--exploitation of anti-American sentiment for short term political gain. Longer discussion at:
http://www.kas.de/publikationen/2003/2174_dokument.html

What's this now?

The US has shouldered the burden of military and economic protection of liberal nations--especially in Western Europe--since 1942. European politicians know that's not changing no matter what they say, and they're willing to trade votes for less courteous phone manners from Washington.

 

[Ripclawe]

America bashing is electoral gold in Europe, as Zapatero and Schroeder proved. But there are consequences. It's naive to think it doesn't have an effect on the personal relationships of the politicians involved. They're human too.

Spain is free to do whatever it wants in the short term because it knows that the US will guarantee long term global stability regardless of what Spanish political leaders do to help.

The best part of the American bashing is since then Schroeder party has lost 13 out of 14 regional elections, Germany's economy is sucking wind along with high unemployment and he is highly unpopular. The only thing that is saving the German economy is the export business, which a large part of that is to America. So whatever short term gain that euro politicians can get from America bashing quickly goes away as Zapatero is finding out now in the face of economic reality.

He was so sure Kerry was going to win that he went on a bashing spree and now wants to kiss ass. No luck. Spain for now will be used as an example.

Another class example of how lacking of a president the Americans have once again chosen, and how his legions of supporters just don't get it.

Not only do we "get it" We rather enjoy it.

 

[luxsol]

Link and elaborate

I was responding to what someone was saying might/would happen because of a snub.

If you had read this thread carefully enough, maybe you would have noticed that Zapatero promised to bring back the troops. I hope you are not advocating that he should have broken his promise.

No, he shouldn't break a promise, but I'm saying it's the people who got scared and voted for someone that WOULD pull the troops because of the terrorist act. Not really the best message you can send. Course, if he were a good leader he would understand the consequences of such an action after an attack and broken his promise. There have been leaders who have done this who are viewed favorably (FDR... course, some say he's a traitor too).

 

[DCharlie]

"Germany's economy is sucking wind along with high unemployment and he is highly unpopular."

and you would describe the US economy as.... ???

 

[luxsol]

"Germany's economy is sucking wind along with high unemployment and he is highly unpopular."

and you would describe the US economy as.... ???

Judging from Rip's post

The only thing that is saving the German economy is the export business, which a large part of that is to America.

...helping Germany's economy out? =P

Sorry, just thought it would be funny.

 

[DCharlie]

Helping german economy out... by hosing our own.

tHe US - taking one for the hun!

 

[pestul]

What is the right going to say when Britian backs out of Iraq (oh it will happen.. you can count on it).

 

[luxsol]

Speaking of which... when's their next election for PM coming up?

 

[Do The Mario]

How can people say it’s awesome, it’s fucking disgusting. America can’t fight the “the war on terror” without allies.

There PM election was this year after the Madrid train bombings

 

[luxsol]

I meant for the Brits

 

[Do The Mario]

Early next year I think, I am pretty sure it’s not a mandated date like in the US but the Government calls it like two months in advance.

 

[Hamfam]

I actually think this thread and event proves that the nationalism in the U.S. is developing to the point of a mass insanity.

 

[Ripclawe]

"Germany's economy is sucking wind along with high unemployment and he is highly unpopular."

and you would describe the US economy as.... ???

rather robust.

http://www.detnews.com/2004/business/0411/13/business-3990.htm

BRUSSELS, Belgium -- Growth in the euro-zone economy slowed sharply in the third quarter, led by weaker-than-expected results in France and Germany, and is expected to remain sluggish in the next six months, according to data released Friday.

The European Union's statistics agency showed that the economy of the 12 nations using the common currency grew by 0.3 percent from the second quarter, and by 1.9 percent from the same period in 2003.

In comparison, the U.S. economy grew at an annual rate of 3.7 percent in the July-to-September quarter, while China's soaring economy grew at an annual rate of 9.1 percent in the third quarter of this year -- way above the official 7 percent target.

With domestic consumption stubbornly low, particularly in Germany, hopes that exports would push up growth have been dented by the strong euro, which makes European exports more expensive on world market.

The euro hit an all-time high of US$1.3007 on Wednesday and high oil prices have been pushing up production costs -- making it difficult for the euro zone to pick up much steam without a sharp increase in domestic demand.

Attempting to slow the dollar's slide, ECB President Jean-Claude Trichet has called the surge "brutal" and "not welcome."

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/1330B62A-DD66-4053-97AF-6FE05F52012D.htm

Falling dollar bad for Eurozone
By Adam Porter in Perpignan, France

Saturday 13 November 2004, 12:15 Makka Time, 9:15 GMT

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aAs18Urey1RI&refer=news_index

Nov. 12 (Bloomberg) -- American consumers increased their purchases of clothing, accessories and furniture in October and gained confidence this month, suggesting job growth may help the holiday shopping season.

Retail sales rose 0.2 percent after a 1.6 percent rise in September, the Commerce Department said in Washington. Purchases excluding autos rose 0.9 percent, the biggest jump since May, after a 0.8 percent gain that was more than first estimated.

``With job growth picking up and wage and salary gains accelerating, all the pieces are in place for the consumer to keep spending,'' said Tim McGee, chief economist at U.S. Trust Corp. in New York. ``It looks really good.''

 

[Ripclawe]

...helping Germany's economy out? =P

Sorry, just thought it would be funny.

err..never mind about that.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,8209-1356408,00.html

Weak data cast a pall over hopes of global recovery
By Gary Duncan, Economics Editor



BLEAK figures showing that growth stalled in three of the world’s leading economies in the third quarter fuelled fears yesterday that the global recovery is faltering.
Anxieties over the prospect for the world economy next year grew after far worse than expected data revealed that growth in Japan and France all but ground to a halt in the three months to September.
The gloomy news came just a day after Germany reported that its economy came close to a renewed bout of stagnation in the third quarter, and underlined the mounting toll from soaring oil prices and weak demand.

 

[videogamer]

/

 

[Dilbert]

I actually think this thread and event proves that the nationalism in the U.S. is developing to the point of a mass insanity.

Damn straight.

Again, someone else pegged it earlier in this thread. Bush continually bashed Kerry for his "global test" concept, insisting over and over again that he would do what was right for America without considering any other country's viewpoint. But, when the Spanish people want to do what's best for THEM, and vote in a candidate who expresses how much they disapprove of America's actions, it pisses Bush off?

Get some consistency, fuckwit.

Of course, the really funny thing is that Ripclawe can't even figure who the REAL threat to U.S. security is at this point. He even posted their name in his article.

 

[Ripclawe]

Of course, the really funny thing is that Ripclawe can't even figure who the REAL threat to U.S. security is at this point. He even posted their name in his article.

Not the China business again.

 

[Ulairi]

No, it's called basic diplomacy. If he ever hopes to get Spain back on board - which is doubtful anyway - he could maybe kick things off by not revealing how personally he takes it when people defy his wishes.

The Spainish PM has insulted America time and time again. He didn't rise when our flag was shown during a parade, but he did for other countries. A direct slap in the face. He then told us not to show up with our military to another event. He supported Senator Kerry in the election. Their PM has done nothing but insult American time and time again. That is why Spain lost billions worth of government contracts. The Spainish economy is in the shitter and if their PM wanted to do anything other than grandstand, he would make an effort to reach out to Bush.

The Aussies are getting huge contracts for their support and it will help the people of the country.

The Spainish PM is not an ally.

 

[norinrad21]

Aznar will be back, you can make sure of that once the spanish economy goes into total shit than it already is

 

[videogamer]

.

 

[CrunchyB]

The Spainish PM has insulted America time and time again. [...] He supported Senator Kerry in the election. Their PM has done nothing but insult American time and time again.

Picking one candidate over the other wasn't particualry clever, but it's hardly anti-american].

That is why Spain lost billions worth of government contracts. The Spainish economy is in the shitter and if their PM wanted to do anything other than grandstand, he would make an effort to reach out to Bush.

The Aussies are getting huge contracts for their support and it will help the people of the country.

The Spainish PM is not an ally.

So, to sum this up, support the US and get paid in cold hard cash. Otherwise, fuck off.

 

[retardboy]

Picking one candidate over the other wasn't particualry clever, but it's hardly anti-american].



So, to sum this up, support the US and get paid in cold hard cash. Otherwise, fuck off.

No, don't insult as and we won't insult you.

 

[luxsol]

You are attributing too much to a terrorist attack. I suggest that you read up on the actions of the People's Party immediately after the bombings.

I'm pretty fuzzy on what happened afterward. I do remember the PP saying it was a local terrorists group behind it but it was found out it was some Arab group and people saying the PP was covering it up as to not lose its popularity. Those two things came out at almost exactly the same time. Either way, they still lost because of the bombing. Maybe I am attributing too much to just that, but it still affected the outcome.

Breaking an important promise right after an election? Talk about ruining the honeymoon period. Also, America was behind FDR's decision to break his promise. Spain would not.

A good leader could also rally its people for the cause. =P

 

[Azih]

And the former Spanish PM wasn't a good leader at all.

 

[luxsol]

Obviously not, he lost!

 

[Azih]

yes but the thing is that the PP *continued* insisting the bombing was caused by the Basque seperatist group when everyone knew that it was a fundamentalist muslim thing.

It wasn't the bombing that sunk the government as much as it was the government's cynical handling of it that did them in.

 

[videogamer]

.