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California Law Banning Gay Marriages Is Struck Down

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WedgeX

Banned
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=aRujiquVjTDM&refer=top_world_news

March 14 (Bloomberg) -- A California judge struck down the state's laws banning gay weddings, saying that measures defining marriage as between a man and a woman are unconstitutional.

Superior Court Judge Richard Kramer's ruling, pending appeals, would make California the second state in the U.S. to legalize gay marriages after Massachusetts. San Francisco, which conducted about 4,000 same-sex weddings last year before the ceremonies were halted by the state Supreme Court, claimed the laws violated the rights of gays and lesbians.

``Same-sex marriage cannot be prohibited solely because California has always done so before,'' Kramer said in a 27-page tentative ruling released today in San Francisco. The ruling doesn't take effect for 60 days.

And now, for a gay couple to get married, and move to Oregon...and have it go to the Supreme Court.
 

Nerevar

they call me "Man Gravy".
dem der' activist judges are tramplin' the good word of the Bible-lovin' foundin fathers!
 

xsarien

daedsiluap
Remember the golden spin rule:
If a judge finds for a liberal cause, he's an activist; if a judge finds for a conservative cause, he's "interpreting the law."
 

impirius

Member
This is significant only in that it is setting the wheels in motion for the California Supreme Court to face the issue.
 

Monk

Banned
Same-sex marriage cannot be prohibited solely because California has always done so before

I dont get it? While I dont think that same sex marriage should be banned, isnt that ruling kinda off? I mean you had slavery in the past and yet now it is illegal, so just because you did so in the past doesnt mean that you cant change a law in the future, right?
 
D

Deleted member 4784

Unconfirmed Member
Wait a minute -- a SUPERIOR court judge is telling the SUPREME court how to interpret law? :lol I can't wait to see what happens with this (it won't be marriages, that's for sure)!
 
Monk said:
I dont get it? While I dont think that same sex marriage should be banned, isnt that ruling kinda off? I mean you had slavery in the past and yet now it is illegal, so just because you did so in the past doesnt mean that you cant change a law in the future, right?

That's exactly what he's saying. He's stating that just because it's been prohibited before, doesn't mean it cannot be changed. I think.
 

impirius

Member
Waychel said:
Wait a minute -- a SUPERIOR court judge is telling the SUPREME court how to interpret law? :lol I can't wait to see what happens with this (it won't be marriages, that's for sure)!
Nah, it's not telling the SC how to interpret law. From what I've gathered, California's state court system is Superior -> Appeals -> Supreme, so this ruling just means that the Appeals court will rule next, and then I imagine the Supreme Court will rule after that. Don't know if they're required to or not.
 

xsarien

daedsiluap
Waychel said:
Wait a minute -- a SUPERIOR court judge is telling the SUPREME court how to interpret law?

If my memory serves, the sequence of events took the case directly to the state supreme court, which quickly pushed the case on the lower courts. So this judge, who for some reason you're laughing at for doing his job - is doing precisely what's been ordered. Issuing a ruling, and if it makes it back up to the California supreme court through the proper chain, then they'll rule on it.
 

teh_pwn

"Saturated fat causes heart disease as much as Brawndo is what plants crave."
dem der' activist judges are tramplin' the good word of the Bible-lovin' foundin fathers!

I know you're making fun, but the fouding fathers were Deists.
 
Great news. I do, however, think that gay marriage advocates shouldn't just go to the court,s but should also focus on changing overall public opinion.
 

Flynn

Member
Father_Brain said:
Great news. I do, however, think that gay marriage advocates shouldn't just go to the court,s but should also focus on changing overall public opinion.

Exactly.

People need to learn that the legal definition of marriage is not the same thing as the religious definition of marriage.

These laws will not force churches to accept gays as equals.

Christians will be able to continue being bigots and making Jesus cry.
 

MetatronM

Unconfirmed Member
SatelliteOfLove said:
What's with these "banning" laws in blue states and "enacting" laws in red ones? /confused
What's with these blue states tearing down bans on individuals' freedoms and these red states placing bans on individuals' freedoms?

Ahhhh....smell that? Smells like FREEDOM ON THE MARCH!

USA!

USA!


Man, that's fun to do. :D
 

DDayton

(more a nerd than a geek)
This will be interesting, as I'm not sure how the law can be interpreted as counter to the California state constitution -- given that propositions become part of the state constitution. If he had ruled for some other reason, I could see the logic... but you can't really say that "you can't amend the constitution" simply because of that fact.
 
DavidDayton said:
This will be interesting, as I'm not sure how the law can be interpreted as counter to the California state constitution -- given that propositions become part of the state constitution.
Not necessarily. Propositions can also be used to change laws. Consider Prop 71. It created funding AND added a part to the consititution that said that the legislature wasn't going to meddle with the funding. Proposition 22 changed the family law code; it was not an admendment.

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:...a+marriage+proposition&hl=en&client=firefox-a

As for the activist judges chant: I find it interesting that the judge is a Catholic Pete Wilson appointee. So it wasn't like Davis packed the courts full of "activists judges" that are changing the rules.
 

Nerevar

they call me "Man Gravy".
Waychel said:
Wait a minute -- a SUPERIOR court judge is telling the SUPREME court how to interpret law? :lol I can't wait to see what happens with this (it won't be marriages, that's for sure)!

The Supreme Court of California simply ruled earlier that the governor of San Francisco (or wherever it was) couldn't issue marriage licenses that weren't valid in the state. It had nothing to do with the legality of gay marriage, AFAIK.
 

sprsk

force push the doodoo rock
This is a major setback for heterosapiens everywhere. The thought of homos kissing each other makes me red with anger! And to think they want to get married? Wait until jesus comes back you fucks, we'll see whos gettin married then!
 
D

Deleted member 4784

Unconfirmed Member
Allow me to rephrase, as I was very poor with the wording of my original post.

The Supreme Court ruled that San Francisco's mayor could not order the courts to issue homosexual marriage licenses as it went against the state's constitution. Now, a Superior Court judge is claiming that the definition of marriage itself is unconstitutional. The judge's jurisdiction was to rule on this case, that is true; but his tentative ruling hardly speaks for the reality of the situation or what the outcome of his ruling will be. This is what I found humorous about the heralding of this judge's ruling. The California Attorney General is going to appeal this and find that Kramer erred -- end of story. An issue of this much controversial importance is hardly one left to the discretion of a single county judge in the first place. I'd go streaking before a panel of judges actually managed to uphold this.

I also think that too many people place weight upon the theological influence upon the rationale surrounding most court decisions relating to this issue. The state refuses to recognize homosexual marriage for much the same reason as it refuses to recognize Polygamist marriage; that being that it would bring into question family law as a whole in relation to divorce and assets, among other things. My understanding has always been that the very concept of alimony itself was derived from the noticeably differential social roles played by man and woman in marriage with sole consideration to the issue of gender, for one thing.

This is an issue of all entitlements and benefits in regards to marriage -- whether homosexual or heterosexual -- and not simply a matter of bible thumping. Those who say that this is an issue concerning only homosexuals are not giving as much consideration as they should to the larger picture IMO, as homosexuals will not be the only ones affected. I'm Atheist and have friends who are homosexual, but I'm still against the legal recognition of homosexual marriage for the legal implications that none of us can even begin to fathom will go along with it. Some may call that conservative, but I call it being prepared.
 

Dilbert

Member
Waychel said:
Those who say that this is an issue concerning only homosexuals are not giving as much consideration as they should to the larger picture IMO, as homosexuals will not be the only ones affected.
How?

Waychel said:
I'm still against the legal recognition of homosexual marriage for the legal implications that none of us can even begin to fathom will go along with it.
What implications?

You mentioned "alimony" and "family law." Alimony is paid to the spouse with the lower income and/or lower earning potential, regardless of gender. Not all married couples have children, nor is the purpose of marriage to start a family.

I'm sorry, but you're going to have to do a lot better than raising a specter of civilization-rending consequences without providing some solid rationale.
 
Hilarious how libertarians can defy their own dogma just because they might find themselves on the same side as those scary libruls.
 

Macam

Banned
Waychel said:
Those who say that this is an issue concerning only homosexuals are not giving as much consideration as they should to the larger picture IMO, as homosexuals will not be the only ones affected. I'm Atheist and have friends who are homosexual, but I'm still against the legal recognition of homosexual marriage for the legal implications that none of us can even begin to fathom will go along with it. Some may call that conservative, but I call it being prepared.

"Being prepared" means knowing what you're talking about, which, judging by your post, you don't. I also find the comment "giving as much consideration as they should to the larger picture" being wholly hypocritical in your post. There's no legal basis that I'm aware of that should prohibit same sex couples from getting married nor deny them the entitlements that come with marriage.
 
D

Deleted member 4784

Unconfirmed Member
Family Law in consideration to marriage relates primarily to one thing: the protections and interests awarded to both parties in the event of a divorce. The moment that we introduce a change of genders (homosexuality) or numbers (polygamy) is the moment that we begin to infringe upon, disown or abuse these protections and the original context (social roles) that they were initially provided under. Would this not mean the entire revision of Family Law as a whole in relation to marriage and divorce?

The grounds in which homosexuals argue that their marriages be recognized are what is frightening. If we refuse to define the legal institution of marriage and place no discrimination upon gender, then how may we continue to discriminate upon it regarding the issue of numbers? The Mormons were arguing the issue of marital recognition long before the homosexual community ever became widely established in this country. If we were to give recognition to gay marriage under the pretenses of "equality", then we would then need to relinquish this same right to polygamist groups. How do we then consider issues of "dependency" in regards to a same-sex couple with relation to alimony? How do we consider issues of community property in relation to a multiple-spouse marriage? Once again, how we define and award alimony and community property becomes of greater issue. Similarly, how would we continue to argue the issues of adultery and bigamy in relation to divorce when there are establishments of marriage that fall under that very context?

Marriage as recognized by law essentially comes down to being about law. If homosexuals are going to argue against it, then they need to address the issue of how marriage law protects people and how the submission of their social group may infringe upon that. What they're proposing is not a change in definition, but a change to Family Law as a whole -- which does affect all of us.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Waychel, think about what you are saying. Your ENTIRE argument rests on the idea that homosexuality is nontraditional, and therefore admitting that means admitting other nontraditional forms like polygamy. NEVERMIND that with homosexuality the ONLY thing affected is gender, you still have two consenting parties and changes to legal equity are nonexistent. Polygamy, on the other hand, opens a whole equity can of worms with multiple parties having to give equal consent.

FYI, next time you bring the mormons into a marriage discussion, it would help to know that mormon polygamy is not simple polygamy as it is male-dominant with little to no say on the female end of the equation. Of course, if you want to continue equating gender equality in equity with wife herding, please don't let me stop you.
 

Mandark

Small balls, big fun!
You're making pretty bad arguments, Waychel:

1) The Penis-Vagina Law Argument: If you actually look at marriage laws, you'll see they're not gendered. Applying them to same-gender couples would be no problem.

2) The Slippery Slope to Polygamy: A court ruling in favor of homosexual marriage will not lead to a ruling in favor of polygamy, just because in your mind the abstract arguments for one apply to the other. I will bet you my entire life savings on this.

3) Marriage Is Really Divorce: Marriage law entails a lot more than guidelines for how to split the pie.

Marriage is whatever a society says it is. I say it should be two adults who love each other and want to share each other's lives. A lot of people agree with me. If enough people agree with me, we'll manage to pass some new laws.

Did alimony originate from the assumption that husbands would support their wives financially? I'd bet money on it. But as society changed, the law changed. Same thing happened with laws barring interracial marriage.

So what do you think marriage should be?
 
D

Deleted member 4784

Unconfirmed Member
Waychel, think about what you are saying. Your ENTIRE argument rests on the idea that homosexuality is nontraditional, and therefore admitting that means admitting other nontraditional forms like polygamy. NEVERMIND that with homosexuality the ONLY thing affected is gender, you still have two consenting parties and changes to legal equity are nonexistent. Polygamy, on the other hand, opens a whole equity can of worms with multiple parties having to give equal consent.

I fail to see where traditional or nontraditional was mentioned anywhere in my argument. My claim is that we cannot recognize homosexual marriages on a basis of "equality" and "equal representation" with sole consideration to their "lifestyle" and simultaneously ignore the same argument posed by Mormons, Islamics, etc. in consideration to their "religion". IMO this is hypocrisy if not total contradiction in rationale basis

FYI, next time you bring the mormons into a marriage discussion, it would help to know that mormon polygamy is not simple polygamy as it is male-dominant with little to no say on the female end of the equation. Of course, if you want to continue equating gender equality in equity with wife herding, please don't let me stop you.

The nature of homosexuality isn't in question, so why is the nature of Mormonism in this case? I am simply pointing out that if we modify the definition of marriage to not distinguish between genders out of consideration to “sexual lifestyle”, then the same courtesy must be awarded to “religious lifestyle” under the same reasoning.

1) The Penis-Vagina Law Argument: If you actually look at marriage laws, you'll see they're not gendered. Applying them to same-gender couples would be no problem.

Law is an issue of circumstance. Simply because the law is worded generally does not mean that it can be applied that way in every individual circumstance.

2) The Slippery Slope to Polygamy: A court ruling in favor of homosexual marriage will not lead to a ruling in favor of polygamy, just because in your mind the abstract arguments for one apply to the other. I will bet you my entire life savings on this.

Then I suppose we will have to agree to disagree, as you can't seem to provide me with anything other than your word to indicate otherwise. I fail to see how homosexuality could be recognized on the context of "equality" in consideration to lifestyle and polygamy could not within the same scope of reasoning.

3) Marriage Is Really Divorce: Marriage law entails a lot more than guidelines for how to split the pie.

I never stated that marriage law is entirely about divorce. What I stated was that one of the primary considerations of marriage law was the event of divorce.

"Family Law in consideration to marriage relates primarily to one thing..."

I do not believe my statement was inaccurate considering that divorce is the more complex issue in contrast to marriage alone.
 

xsarien

daedsiluap
Kobun Heat said:
But wouldn't the purely libertarian stance be that the government should not be involved in regulating marriage at all?

Don't get me wrong for a moment, my IDEAL world includes a government that only recognizes civil unions. Marriage is a religious institution, and within that sphere, I think people should be able to marry whomever they want to marry, provided they find a clergy progressive enough to do it.
 

fennec fox

ferrets ferrets ferrets ferrets FERRETS!!!
Bla bla bla.

When will the activist courts strike down the California law banning ferrets, huh? That's the sort of thing that wins my vote.
 
fennec fox said:
Bla bla bla.

When will the activist courts strike down the California law banning ferrets, huh? That's the sort of thing that wins my vote.

WHAT?! I knew they were banned in certain cities and such.. but the entire state? Christ..

I feel bad for you. Me and my fiancee have had a ferret for about a year now, and I don't know what we'd do without her! :D
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
I fail to see where traditional or nontraditional was mentioned anywhere in my argument.

....

My claim is that we cannot recognize homosexual marriages on a basis of "equality" and "equal representation" with sole consideration to their "lifestyle" and simultaneously ignore the same argument posed by Mormons, Islamics, etc. in consideration to their "religion". IMO this is hypocrisy if not total contradiction in rationale basis.

The nature of homosexuality isn't in question, so why is the nature of Mormonism in this case? I am simply pointing out that if we modify the definition of marriage to not distinguish between genders out of consideration to “sexual lifestyle”, then the same courtesy must be awarded to “religious lifestyle” under the same reasoning.

Look up "imply" in the dictionary.

I fail to see how homosexuality could be recognized on the context of "equality" in consideration to lifestyle and polygamy could not within the same scope of reasoning.
It would help if you stopped imposing your own broken reasoning on the issue.
 

fennec fox

ferrets ferrets ferrets ferrets FERRETS!!!
Biglesworth23 said:
I feel bad for you. Me and my fiancee have had a ferret for about a year now, and I don't know what we'd do without her! :D
Luckily I moved to Houston a month ago and adopted a pair almost immediately from a guy moving to California. This brought about my most popular thread ever: GAF, please name these buggers for me.

Lemme see a pic of yours! Screw gay marriage!
 
I dunno; (s)he's a libertarian sort and not particularly Christian; Loki's a Catholic academic trying desperately to stave off his inevitable slide into socialism. ;) (S)he's paranoid and possessed of a dubious legal acumen; he's fighting a war against his Calvinist upbringing.

I'd put him/her with, I dunno, NLB2. Loki and Mandark, on the other hand, were made for each other.
 

AntoneM

Member
My claim is that we cannot recognize homosexual marriages on a basis of "equality" and "equal representation" with sole consideration to their "lifestyle" and simultaneously ignore the same argument posed by Mormons, Islamics, etc. in consideration to their "religion". IMO this is hypocrisy if not total contradiction in rationale basis

except that a Mormon, and a Muslim choose to be Mormon or Muslim, homosexuals have no such choice.
 

Che

Banned
Waychel said:
I fail to see where traditional or nontraditional was mentioned anywhere in my argument. My claim is that we cannot recognize homosexual marriages on a basis of "equality" and "equal representation" with sole consideration to their "lifestyle" and simultaneously ignore the same argument posed by Mormons, Islamics, etc. in consideration to their "religion". IMO this is hypocrisy if not total contradiction in rationale basis



The nature of homosexuality isn't in question, so why is the nature of Mormonism in this case? I am simply pointing out that if we modify the definition of marriage to not distinguish between genders out of consideration to “sexual lifestyle”, then the same courtesy must be awarded to “religious lifestyle” under the same reasoning.



Law is an issue of circumstance. Simply because the law is worded generally does not mean that it can be applied that way in every individual circumstance.



Then I suppose we will have to agree to disagree, as you can't seem to provide me with anything other than your word to indicate otherwise. I fail to see how homosexuality could be recognized on the context of "equality" in consideration to lifestyle and polygamy could not within the same scope of reasoning.



I never stated that marriage law is entirely about divorce. What I stated was that one of the primary considerations of marriage law was the event of divorce.

"Family Law in consideration to marriage relates primarily to one thing..."

I do not believe my statement was inaccurate considering that divorce is the more complex issue in contrast to marriage alone.

All humans are equal -> All humans have the same rights -> All humans should have the right to get married with whoever they want. Everything else is just conservative bullshit. And btw can you explain to me what's is your (real) problem with gay marriage? I mean wtf? Is it harming you in any way? Do gays come into your house and start screaming "WE GOT MARRIED, NYAH NYAH NYAH NYAH!" or something?
 

Loki

Count of Concision
Drinky Crow said:
I dunno; (s)he's a libertarian sort and not particularly Christian; Loki's a Catholic academic trying desperately to stave off his inevitable slide into socialism. ;) (S)he's paranoid and possessed of a dubious legal acumen; he's fighting a war against his Calvinist upbringing.

I'd put him/her with, I dunno, NLB2. Loki and Mandark, on the other hand, were made for each other.

:lol

Hah- you're lucky I like you, Doug. :D :)


Btw, I no longer consider myself a Catholic-- time to update those files. :p
 
fennec fox said:
Luckily I moved to Houston a month ago and adopted a pair almost immediately from a guy moving to California. This brought about my most popular thread ever: GAF, please name these buggers for me.

Lemme see a pic of yours! Screw gay marriage!

I've never tried image hosting before. What's the best way to go about it? Best free place to upload images, etc? I just tried one, but it wouldn't let me "host" images for free, just upload them (no URL to get to them though for you). Which one do you use?
 

Mandark

Small balls, big fun!
Waychel: You seem to be saying that (1) marriage laws are specifically designed to maintain traditional gender roles in our society, (2) this is a good thing, (3) and allowing same-gender marriages would undermine this.

The first is a matter of fact: you are wrong.

The second is a matter of opinion: I disagree.

The third is moot, though maybe hypothetically correct.

As for the slippery slope, I think you're being really naive. There has already been one major expansion of marriage based on "equality," and that didn't lead to legalized polygamy.

99% of proponents of gay marriage are like me: We think that marriage should remain an exclusive commitment by two consenting adults to share their lives. We don't think that these two people should be limited by their race, gender, religion, political affiliation, or hair color.

Redefinitions of marriage have come from widespread political pressure. There is now pressure to redefine the gender requirements. Maybe in the future there will be pressure to redefine the number of participants, but there is nothing even approaching that now.

When there is a single pro-polygamy ruling in the US courts citing same-sex marriage as a precedent, then this will be a legitimate argument. Not until then.

Kobun Heat: I'm not sure what the libertarian perspective on marriage would be, but I'll hazard a guess. Libertarians don't like it when the government limits the kinds of contracts you can make, but they do think the contracts should be enforced (though some would prefer a private, for-profit justice/security system).

Marriage is a contract, and most people who enter into it don't bother hammering out all the details beforehand in a prenup. So it would make sense for the government to determine what was implied in a marriage contract, and enforce that in cases where the couple didn't draw up a different set of rules.

Loki: I'll put my career on hold if you want, but the kids are getting bar mitzvahs.
 
Remember those wacky, carefree days when marriages weren't even about love? Y'know, like a mere 200 years ago and previous? When your partner often got chosen for you by your family, your community, or your leader? When "one of the primary considerations" of marriage was not divorce but property rights, and the woman was merely the means to a familial end?

Good thing we've loosened our interpretation of marriage in this little ol' first-world nation, eh? Look at all the disaster THAT caused!
 
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