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Carmack on G4 Tonight Talking PS3/360
- Thread starter mcdonnell
- Start date
Straightballin
Member
Add a summary when its over please
Let me guess:
'Q: In regards to the PS3 dev kit, has it been a big challenge from a technological standpoint?
A: It's actually not going to be that bad in the larger scheme of things. If you look at the previous generation, the PS2 was not a good platform for developers to work on. From a hardware standpoint, the PS3 is a lot nicer, because it essentially has a PC graphics accelerator in it and it has simple memory. I think Microsoft made a better choice with the processor technology than Sony did. But, to a first approximation, they are both plenty capable systems. I was much more down on the PS2 than I am on the PS3. I definitely did prefer the Xbox over the PS2 by a wide margin. I think I prefer the 360 over the PS3 by a less wide margin.
Q: What are your thoughts about the potential of these two systems in the overall market?
A: I don't like how the hype is always so ridiculous at new console launches. Because the truth is, by the time any of these things ship, you will be able to buy a higher end PC. It won't have better cost performance - the value won't be as good, but for the people that try to make it sound like the PS3 is going to be an order of magnitude better than anything else, it's just not true. '
Or
'Q: The one thing that I kind of got out of it yesterday, and I kind of could be off base, but he seemed happier with Microsoft, and not too thrilled with Sony and the Cell technology. Do you think that’s accurate?
A: I think that’s accurate. I’m not really one to put words in John’s mouth but what I do know is we’ve had 360 stuff for a while and it was relatively easy to bring our internal project onto 360. We just got the PS3 stuff recently and it was relatively more difficult to bring that up on the PS3. So John’s first impressions are, “360 great, PS3 – pain in my ass.” I think the more we work with it - I don’t know if John himself will be doing the primary PS3 work or not - but we’ll have to see about that stuff. Also, 360 is further along in their process as well. They have more final hardware, and they have better drivers, and the SDK has been more refined and revised. I think the PS3 stuff, in all fairness to Sony is a little bit more raw. I think we’ll have to wait and see, but I don’t think that’s going to ultimately change the way we’re going to approach developing on PS3. He knows from a technology horsepower standpoint that it’ll do everything that we want it to do, so we’re committed to it.'
Or both.
'Q: In regards to the PS3 dev kit, has it been a big challenge from a technological standpoint?
A: It's actually not going to be that bad in the larger scheme of things. If you look at the previous generation, the PS2 was not a good platform for developers to work on. From a hardware standpoint, the PS3 is a lot nicer, because it essentially has a PC graphics accelerator in it and it has simple memory. I think Microsoft made a better choice with the processor technology than Sony did. But, to a first approximation, they are both plenty capable systems. I was much more down on the PS2 than I am on the PS3. I definitely did prefer the Xbox over the PS2 by a wide margin. I think I prefer the 360 over the PS3 by a less wide margin.
Q: What are your thoughts about the potential of these two systems in the overall market?
A: I don't like how the hype is always so ridiculous at new console launches. Because the truth is, by the time any of these things ship, you will be able to buy a higher end PC. It won't have better cost performance - the value won't be as good, but for the people that try to make it sound like the PS3 is going to be an order of magnitude better than anything else, it's just not true. '
Or
'Q: The one thing that I kind of got out of it yesterday, and I kind of could be off base, but he seemed happier with Microsoft, and not too thrilled with Sony and the Cell technology. Do you think that’s accurate?
A: I think that’s accurate. I’m not really one to put words in John’s mouth but what I do know is we’ve had 360 stuff for a while and it was relatively easy to bring our internal project onto 360. We just got the PS3 stuff recently and it was relatively more difficult to bring that up on the PS3. So John’s first impressions are, “360 great, PS3 – pain in my ass.” I think the more we work with it - I don’t know if John himself will be doing the primary PS3 work or not - but we’ll have to see about that stuff. Also, 360 is further along in their process as well. They have more final hardware, and they have better drivers, and the SDK has been more refined and revised. I think the PS3 stuff, in all fairness to Sony is a little bit more raw. I think we’ll have to wait and see, but I don’t think that’s going to ultimately change the way we’re going to approach developing on PS3. He knows from a technology horsepower standpoint that it’ll do everything that we want it to do, so we’re committed to it.'
Or both.
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
To sum up he said the ps3 is slightly better than the xbox but that MS has better tools and documentation than sony has at the moment.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
so.. since it turned out that he likes the 360 more.. are people now more accepting of his views?
Kleegamefan
K. LEE GAIDEN
Actually, JCs word used to be law *until* he started comparing X360 and PS3...
Kleegamefan said:
Nothing is law, but I would trust JC more than some random GAF guy
JC is no idiot.
I think JC and whats his name who does the DOA games may very well believe everything they are saying. Maybe they feel MS is empowering them better with their development tools. MS has learned a lot about supporting it's developers over the years. I've seen it take place.
Sony may also very well have the strongest workhorse of the two, but taking advantage of said workhorse is what matters most.
Numbers are just theory pie in the sky. It takes someone to actually do something with it to make it truly awesome. I'm hoping devs can take what we saw in MGS4 and make it even better than that - on both platforms hopefully
[edit]
It was as I figured. He commented on development tools and depth of documentation.
HomerSimpson-Man
Member
Zaptruder said:
I think it's more to he fact that it's coming out so soon and the gamemakers are still in a current gen state of mind.
MightyHedgehog
Member
Well, the better you can extract performance, the better the results on-screen, at least technically... It's a good argument in a time when game development is pretty damned expensive and dev cycles are longer.
Middleware will save Sony again, as it has with the PS2, it seems. Someone was talking about how it's pretty hard to hit the metal on the PS3 thanks to a forced level of abstraction that is security-related as well as a way to try to make it easier to manage...whereas X360 can be worked very easily at low-level.
Middleware will save Sony again, as it has with the PS2, it seems. Someone was talking about how it's pretty hard to hit the metal on the PS3 thanks to a forced level of abstraction that is security-related as well as a way to try to make it easier to manage...whereas X360 can be worked very easily at low-level.
CamHostage
Member
So ... nobody watched?
You make the latter sound like it's a bad thing.MightyHedgehog said:
Thick abstraction layers can be a royal pain in the ass.
When it comes down to it, I'd rather spend my time 'fighting' the hardware then the driver programmers. At least I can rely on hardware to give me predictable/honest 'answers'.
Assuming they are well designed, things do get nice once the abstraction layers mature - but it can be years before we get to that point.
Well...Zaptruder said:
There was a thread a while ago which indicated that Sony has higher expectations from developers working on PS3. Higher expectations + a more difficult development environment make the PS3 less appealing to many companies, I suppose.
Funny you should say...
...as that is one of the prime examples.
Summary of the interview (I watched this a few hours ago so I may be forgetting some stuff):
- Talked about the Doom movie, showed some footage of it etc
- Talked about Raven and how they are close etc
- Reason for no flashlight/gun at the same time in Doom 3 was that earlier on it brang the frame rate down a lot cause of the dynamic lighting (or something like that). They also wanted to make it more scarier juggling a flashlight and a gun, but carmack said looking back that may not have been the best choice and Quake 4 now has the flashlight/gun combo.
- Thinks in next-next-gen (one coming up after this one, ie PS4/Xbox3) that it will be a lot harder to tell the difference between games and CG unless you closely examine it
- Seems really impressed with the 360, said that this is the first time a console has as good a development environment as PC (tools, documentation etc). PS3 has slightly more raw power, but 360 development is much nicer. 360 is the main console for iD development now.
- Skeptical about the Revolution/controller. Carmack said something about it being interesting, but that 90% of the ideas will probably be crap. Another iD guy said they will give it a chance, looking into all the consoles.
- Geoff asked about the drama at id (the founder being fired or whatever) but they kind of avoided the question saying that they are just concentrated on making great games.
- Will continue to make FPS's. Left the door open in the future for more genres, but said they are concentrated on FPS's.
- Wants to release the source code to Commander Keen, but they weren't as organized back then and they can only find bits and pieces of it.
- Talked about the Doom movie, showed some footage of it etc
- Talked about Raven and how they are close etc
- Reason for no flashlight/gun at the same time in Doom 3 was that earlier on it brang the frame rate down a lot cause of the dynamic lighting (or something like that). They also wanted to make it more scarier juggling a flashlight and a gun, but carmack said looking back that may not have been the best choice and Quake 4 now has the flashlight/gun combo.
- Thinks in next-next-gen (one coming up after this one, ie PS4/Xbox3) that it will be a lot harder to tell the difference between games and CG unless you closely examine it
- Seems really impressed with the 360, said that this is the first time a console has as good a development environment as PC (tools, documentation etc). PS3 has slightly more raw power, but 360 development is much nicer. 360 is the main console for iD development now.
- Skeptical about the Revolution/controller. Carmack said something about it being interesting, but that 90% of the ideas will probably be crap. Another iD guy said they will give it a chance, looking into all the consoles.
- Geoff asked about the drama at id (the founder being fired or whatever) but they kind of avoided the question saying that they are just concentrated on making great games.
- Will continue to make FPS's. Left the door open in the future for more genres, but said they are concentrated on FPS's.
- Wants to release the source code to Commander Keen, but they weren't as organized back then and they can only find bits and pieces of it.
Agent Icebeezy
Welcome beautful toddler, Madison Elizabeth, to the horde!
the 360 development area went from an Apple G5, to using ATI X800's to final kits having Xenos in there. You can't properly emulate Xenos because it is the first card of it's kind. The Sony kits have 7800's in there, that is the RSX's little brother
Zaptruder said:
Some x360 games look like shit because they had to be delivered as fully finished, bug free and complete games by november. Which essentially means they had to be done by September.
Final 360 kits arrived when? July/August? I'd say cut these people some slack. Most that are/were working on the launch games probably didn't get much sleep nor got to spend time with their families and friends in a looong time. It's not like fantavision, ridge racer 5 or tekken tag tournament were any indication of what the PS2 is capable of. Heck, back in the days, there were plenty of arguments if the dreamcast might actually be more powerful than the PS2. Granted, this situation is sub-optimal for the customer but that's what you buy into for being of the must-have-gadgets-early-adopter kind. I'm that type of person too, so hey.
Blackie{BA}
Banned
Zaptruder said:
shit compared to *WHAT*??
compared to prerendered stuff or what?
make me undestand please
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
The four key owners of id Software were on G4tv...
Phoenix
Member
Blackie{BA} said:
Some of them are merely prev. gen ports that got caught up in the X360 launch hoping to sell better because there won't be as much content at launch on the 360 as there already is on the Xbox.
And then there are some people who have this idea of what next generation is supposed to look like and any game that doesn't look like that is shit.
Kleegamefan
K. LEE GAIDEN
I am really intrested in seeing the new Wolfenstien 360 update because it will be using JCs next generation 3D engine *AND* should be optimized for the X360 so performance should be hot
Bluemercury
Member
Doesnt look like he played with the Revolution controller since from the impressions its ideal for FPS and this guy only does those.....even if they're usually technical showpieces instead of games....
krypt0nian
Banned
Bluemercury said:
oh please...
Bluemercury
Member
krypt0nian said:
What was the last real good game from ID, then?, im not talking about multiplayer fragfest.....
krypt0nian
Banned
Bluemercury said:
Qualify your expected responces much? Stop trolling.
Bluemercury
Member
krypt0nian said:
Trolling???please just because little john prefers xbox360 you sudently going to say all his games were good??well i guess coming from you that's predictable...... but anyway the last good game was quake 2, it actually had a single player game in there that was worth playing......
krypt0nian
Banned
Bluemercury said:
Dude what the fuck are you talking about? Because you think I'm an xbot I now suddenly think all their games are great? They're were always games are great and I support every console.
Now what?
Stop trolling.
MightyHedgehog
Member
Fafalada said:
Many of the codies I know here aren't putting any money down on Sony to bring something to the table that is universally pleasant, as far as the software layer is concerned. I'm glad I'm not a coder.
Bluemercury
Member
krypt0nian said:
Look, i said that most of ID games were more technical showpieces rather than games you obviously dont agree for some reason, but you didnt even try to explain why, instead i get the generic "oh please" answer.....and its me who's trolling.....
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
I wish Carmack would at least run some benchmarks on these consoles and tell it how it is, instead of constantly saying stuff like "I guess this", "probably that". It sounds like he speculates and hasn't even tried to run any code on PS3 or maybe even on X360.
Epic people on the other hand are too much politically correct to say anything, even though they probably know how performances compare better than anyone else at this point.
Epic people on the other hand are too much politically correct to say anything, even though they probably know how performances compare better than anyone else at this point.
krypt0nian
Banned
Bluemercury said:
When you ask stupid questions, why would I go out of my way?
Was Quake 3 a bad game now because it was a fragfest? Nope.
Doom 3 was an amazing corridor shooter.
There ya go. Now you can disagree as I know you will.
When you are implying that Carmack and id are hacks in this industry, you are trolling.
krypt0nian
Banned
Azih said:
100% true.
Bluemercury
Member
krypt0nian said:
See, there you go, it wasnt hard was it?Now you can say Quake 3 wasnt a bad game, but compared to the original Unreal Tournament it was lacking regarding the gameplay and variety department, not graphics, the same thing could be said from Doom3, its a nice looking game, but in pure content, im sorry but its inferior compared to other FPS that although have inferior graphics are much better experiences, and that's why many pple actually consider ID to be technical house instead of a videogames one.....tech-»content......
krypt0nian
Banned
Bluemercury said:
There you go....you disagreed. yay.
And with this logic, since many people feel Nintendo is all kiddy games, that must be true as well? But its not.
So again, claiming that id games are merely tech pieces in a id thread is borderline trolling.
The Bookerman
Member
Sean said:
No wonder, the guy worked only on First person shooters at the very least 10 years. He's a programmer, and he won't be offered hardware that's more powerful than the Xb 360.
The Revolution is a much better console for Creative minds than programmers.
AndoCalrissian
Member
The Bookerman said:
While I agree to an extent, it may be a better controller for FPS titles. I'm sure there will be a lot of silly ideas and certain commonplace uses for it that we will tire of over time, but I'm glad the other dude said they're going to look into it. Given that we don't know what the technical specs of the machine are, I'm sure they are as much on the fence about it as are many gamers.
I'd love to see the next Wolfenstein on it, but if Revolution is less powerful (which is most likely), I doubt they'd downgrade the technology in the game for it.
krypt0nian said:
Take the same games,slap some Japanese paint on them,and suddenly those games would be hailed all over this forum.
Theres alot of animosity towards ID lately because Carmack has gone on record saying that there won't be that much of a power difference between the 360 and PS3,its destroying alot of hype tht Sony has created for these believers. Whether that turns out to be true is anyones guess. But none the less Carmack is one of the great ones,when he speaks you damn well had better stop what youre doing and listen.
Bluemercury said:
The last good game was Doom 3. How anyone can say that it was noot "good" is deluded. Doom3 had great graphics, atmosphere and it was great at what it intended to do - be scary.
The amount that Carmack has done for the gaming industry is irreplaceable and as such he deserves respect.
VictimOfGrief
Banned
Are you sure? :lolDr_Cogent said:
krypt0nian
Banned
VictimOfGrief said:
Compared to some forum dumb, yes we're sure.