You were fooled by Kosmo's double negative. He seems to support requiring insurance companies to take people with pre-existing conditions.
CBO Doubles the Cost for Obamacare
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You were fooled by Kosmo's double negative. He seems to support requiring insurance companies to take people with pre-existing conditions.
RiccochetJ
Gold Member
In all of your posts you talk about med school. Not about everyone else. If that was not what you were implying in your posts, then I apologize.
And I disagree about the whole scholarship argument. I came from Canada down to the US and I had to pay out of state tuition when the Canadian dollar was hovering in the 60's to the US dollar.
It may be anecdotal, but I worked my ass off during the summer applying for everything I qualified for. I was digging ditches during the day up in Canada and writing essays at night. I made my way through the US college system without a penny in debt. I was also scrubbing toilets at minimum wage while class was in session.
I was always jealous of the people who got their loans or their grants. They were off to the bars while I was reading a note from a professor who wanted his and her (yep there were two of them) trashs bag tied a certain way for their Feng Shui.
I make good money now. But my past experience definitely affects my perception. So when people start talking about things that they think they deserve? You bet I'm going to have an opinion.
You seem to have a lot of pent up aggression and frustration. Next time, watch your words before you jump on people. I didn't talk about just medical schools in all of my posts. Read them again. Either way, I accept your apology.
EDIT: BTW, my point about medical schools (which like I said, I believe everyone should get a free education) has nothing to do with entitlements or whether doctors deserve it or not. It was simply a practical observation about keeping the medical profession viable in this country under a single payer system. BTW, good that you were able to find scholarships, but there are VERY FEW medical school scholarships (and most don't go anywhere near to paying for medical school), even if you got a bunch of them besides some like the health corps, which only pay 50K for two years of service, which is little compared to a 300K debt. You also can't have a job and go to medical school. Med school is 9-5, and you need some time to study, lol.
Gonna be honest here, it sounds like because you had a tough time getting through our fucked up higher education system, you're not very willing to entertain the notion that some of us don't want it to be that way and think having to go through what you did is a fairly unproductive way to provide a good education to our young people. That's a bit different from this whole 'entitled' thing you are railing against.
Also, you really shouldn't be jealous of those students who took out thousands of dollars in loans to pay for their education.
RiccochetJ
Gold Member
Good point. Still think that some work has to happen towards those rewards. And for your second point... I'm definitely having a 'told you so' moment with some of my college friends nowadays.
I guess it's hard for me. The courses were demanding enough, and I made it. I don't want a draconian system, but personally I want them to have to earn it if that makes any sense whatsoever. I just don't want my tax dollars to go towards some dipshit who fails out in a year because he or she took it for granted or didn't deserve to be there in the first place.
Edit: And SoulPlaya
Read it again, and on the first page you attacked Kosmo (I do 100 posts per page) and on the second page you said and I quote:
Notice the medical there? When I responded I apparently 'jumped' on you for that part. So it was after that point when you clarified your statement.
Read my very next post after this.
And where did I "attack" Kosmo? Damn, you make a lot of assumptions. I asked a legitimate question.
RiccochetJ
Gold Member
You said this, your very next post. You're still going medical only:
*sigh* Basically I'm mad, I'm angry at a lot of things right now like you insinuated in your initial response. I honestly think that certain things should be a natural human right whereas other things should be encouraged but at the same time it shouldn't be easier financially just because it is of a higher regard over other professions. I know medical school is not an easy path to take and I want to support those that go down that path. I honestly think that you and I are a sliver away from completely agreeing on all aspects. But it's 1:20am here and I have to do a job in 5 hours. I love a good debate, but I crossed a line that I set for myself and I became overzealous with my arguments.
Edit: But don't think I'm done though. I will gladly continue where we left off when I get up
If that cracked tooth had posed a present or possibility of future health risk you could have applied to the NHS to have the cost reimbursed, even if the dentist is private.
They wont touch anything they consider cosmetic though, but if it saves them from having to spend £100,000 on treating mouth cancer after that cracked tooth triggered an infection a month later (as a worse case scenario) then £15 is a small price.
perryfarrell
Member
^ It's a combination of reasons.
Health care is not just like any other market that is governed by simple supply-and-demand rules.
Basically, medical care is UNLIKE other products in that 'consumers' don't know what they need and have to rely on expert judgment, and in that it may be a life-or-death matter so that they're willing to pay any price for what they need.
For these reasons, a health care system that is completely modeled on the free market model is bound to fail.
This is obvious from looking at various aspects of the current US health care system:
* Usually, it is a law of economics that more supply means lower costs. Not so with health care. Research shows that the more doctors there are per square mile, the more $ patients spend on health care. That's because these doctors have to do something to stay in business. They'll end up performing unnecessary or barely beneficial procedures.
* On the current fee-for-service system (in contrast to a salary system), a doctor does not have an incentive to keep a patient healthy--but rather to perform procedures. That's pretty perverse. The dr.'s incentives are in direct contrast with the patient's goals.
* Health care can be a life-or-death issue. I could sell life-savers on the Titanic and charge a million dollar for each one. But the fact that the market bears this asking price is of course no justification for my practices. Same thing for medical care.
* The uninsured. In the US (and in any decent or civilized society), very sick people who show up at the ER receive help. Someone recently wrote that, in a sense, the US already has universal health care. Just an extremely inefficient form that arrives way too late for many.
* Overhead costs, red tape, paperwork, claim denials, etc. due to the unnecessary complexity of the whole system. Also, hospitals have to pay malpractice claims and suits, and they pay for this by raising the prices for their procedures.
Some of these factors are more important than others (for instance, I saw somewhere that caring for the uninsured only raises health care costs 6%, and also that increased costs due to litigation is not as big as oftentimes thought--so these two factors may not play a huge role).
What I don't get is why insurers don't have any negotiating powers in determining health care prices, since they buy them in bulk. I mean, in every market place, there are forces pulling the prices of certain services down. What forces are currently limiting the prices that medical providers can charge? Too little.
That's not an answer.
Freezie KO
Banned
I was in support of Obama changing healthcare, but now...
- I don't have an employer that provides health care for me, so all that stuff where Obama clamped down on employer-based health insurance does me no good.
- I don't have or intend to have children nor am I on my parents' plan.
- I bought health insurance solely so I can get coverage in case something catastrophic happens. My plan is shit.
- BUT since Obamacare, BlueShield raised my price from $80 to $160/month, and I really can't afford it.
- I'm not smart enough/The rest of the shit is too complicated to follow.
- I still buy my medications illegally from Hong Kong. I was originally prescribed mental health meds by a psychiatrist when I was insured and going to once a week. Now, despite wanting to go, I can no longer afford to go to therapy and simply just import my stuff online with no oversight. It's cheaper than buying the name brand that's only available in US drug stores. Patent laws++
I hope one day this wonderful health care bill will actually benefit the little person (me). Otherwise, it's just been an excuse for insurance companies to raise what I pay.
- I don't have an employer that provides health care for me, so all that stuff where Obama clamped down on employer-based health insurance does me no good.
- I don't have or intend to have children nor am I on my parents' plan.
- I bought health insurance solely so I can get coverage in case something catastrophic happens. My plan is shit.
- BUT since Obamacare, BlueShield raised my price from $80 to $160/month, and I really can't afford it.
- I'm not smart enough/The rest of the shit is too complicated to follow.
- I still buy my medications illegally from Hong Kong. I was originally prescribed mental health meds by a psychiatrist when I was insured and going to once a week. Now, despite wanting to go, I can no longer afford to go to therapy and simply just import my stuff online with no oversight. It's cheaper than buying the name brand that's only available in US drug stores. Patent laws++
I hope one day this wonderful health care bill will actually benefit the little person (me). Otherwise, it's just been an excuse for insurance companies to raise what I pay.
Learn2read
Member
oh god, the stupid it burnssss
iamaustrian
Member
even more ridiculous that 3rd world countries like India(>1 Billion population) and Indonesia(260millions) provide "free" healthcare for their citizens.
china provides (even if it's heavily corrupted) healthcare for 1,4billion people.
Healthcare system in the US is so fucked up, unfair and wrong. I can't believe that anyone defends this. Nowhere else in the world you have to go in debt for a vital surgery (if you don't have prober insurance)
makingmusic476
Member
Guerrillas in the Mist
Member
It's going to be interesting to see how the states that implement single-payer fare financially.
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
If the $50 billion comes from penalties, and if you don't purchase insurance you don't have to pay a fine/go to jail.
So is the CBO basically making an assumption that the un-insured will say, "Oh! I'm sorry, government. Here, I'll gladly pay the fee even though I don't have to pay it!"
So is the CBO basically making an assumption that the un-insured will say, "Oh! I'm sorry, government. Here, I'll gladly pay the fee even though I don't have to pay it!"
balladofwindfishes
Member
I believe Hawaii is the only state that has a really robust health system in place and they seem to do fine.
There's been quiet murmurs of implementing a single payer system in NY. I'm interested to see where that goes, considering the size of NY and it's influence in the rest of the US
Henchmen21
Banned
Fixed that for ya
electricpirate
Member
The law actually has a bunch of things that will benefit you, but they don't come online till 2014. Actually, the bulk of it is designed to make it easier for you to pay. Your employer will get incentives to give you insurance, if that doesn't work you'll get a subsidized plan in the exchanges, which will have some mandated level of care. How non-shit that is will depend on your state.
turnbuckle
Member
Perhaps he does and this thread was intended to mislead a bunch of people? Maybe not the people who are reading the thread, but those that just skimmed the title. I guarantee there are people on this forum that now believe the CBO doubled the cost of Obamacare that hadn't even thought about it much before. More often than not the people misleading the public on an issue have a vested interest in the public being mislead on that issue. Him working for an insurance company makes his fucked up thread all the more fucked up because it's hard to tell the difference between ignorance and deception. But it's Kosmo, so you're probably right.
The fine is the greater of 2.5% of income or $695 - let's just go with the latter for simplicity sake. $45B over 10 years is $4.5B a year in fines collected. Divided by $695 is approximately 6.4 million people paying individual fines.
Do we honestly think that there are going to be 6.4 million people who are not insured, do not qualify for a subsidy (which a family of 4 qualifies for up to around $80,000 in household income - many other factors involved, though, such as where you live, etc. ), and do not qualify for Medicaid or Medicare?
That's doesn't pass the sniff test.
This was my post on the first page. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=36000804&postcount=65 Where did I attack Kosmo? Tell me that, before you go on to anything else.You said this, your very next post. You're still going medical only:
*sigh* Basically I'm mad, I'm angry at a lot of things right now like you insinuated in your initial response. I honestly think that certain things should be a natural human right whereas other things should be encouraged but at the same time it shouldn't be easier financially just because it is of a higher regard over other professions. I know medical school is not an easy path to take and I want to support those that go down that path. I honestly think that you and I are a sliver away from completely agreeing on all aspects. But it's 1:20am here and I have to do a job in 5 hours. I love a good debate, but I crossed a line that I set for myself and I became overzealous with my arguments.
Edit: But don't think I'm done though. I will gladly continue where we left off when I get up
Did you read this post? I brought up how all education should be cheap, as well. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=36007968&postcount=147
Like I said, all education should be cheap or free. Your emotions are clouding your judgment. Just because you had it rough, it doesn't mean others should, as well. Hell, you should be the first person to acknowledge why our system needs to change. The point of an education is to improve a person's life, and better society, not to for them to go through hell just to prove something to you. If they get good enough grades and study enough to graduate, then they've earned it. That's it. Besides, how would you know if someone has earned it or not? What system would be in place to determine that? Especially when there are such vast different standards and difficulties for different fields.
Your whole thing about scholarships is silly. I'm telling you, I'm trying to find ways to lessen my possible med school burden, but scholarships are practically nonexistent here. Yes, there are a few, but they barely make a dent in the total debt. Now, doctors do make more, but their salaries would go down in a single payer system. Like I've said a hundred times, I'm fine with that if the med school debt situation is fixed. My opinion on this isn't because doctors deserve it more, or because they've "earned it", it's simply a practical solution to a serious problem. With single payer, you would need a great number of new doctors to look after all the new patients, and we already have a shortage NOW. With lower pay, but yet higher number of debt, people aren't going to want to go through 8 years of school and 3-7 years of residency to become one. It would cripple medicine, which is a societal necessity, in this country.
Whatever anger you have towards those who doubted you, you need to let it go. You did well in your life, you worked hard, but what you have to move on. I don't even understand how you would implement your system. Don't you want all education in the US to be free? It honestly sounds like you don't even like the system where people can get public loans. How would your system work? How would people "prove themselves" worthy to you to get a cheap education? Med students already have to have top grades and do well on the hardest standardized test we have, all while doing hundreds of volunteer hours. What more should they do to earn a cheap education? Plenty of them work, as well before entering med school. BTW, like I said, I want everyone to have a free education.
Takamura-San
Member
I don't care about them honestly.
New positions will be created to manage the single payer option.
Awesome! Crappy paying federal jobs! (jobs that will get chopped whenever there's a budget crunch)
slidewinder
Banned
I thought the right-wing shibboleth was that government employees are always overpaid and have too much job security.
And don't forget that in the end government spending doesn't even create jobs!
Whatever man. Accountants and lawyers can pull themselves up by their own bootstraps.
Get a job that doesnt profit from people suffering.
Start with the financial industry and the military industrial complex.
Mgoblue201
Won't stop picking the right nation
Most of the proposed savings also don't kick in until 2013 or 2014 (and I believe that the excise tax doesn't even fully go into effect until 2018). Here is the breakdown:
The media doesn't make a big deal out of it because they already know about it and it's a non-story; it's not any sort of trick except in the minds of those who still don't understand this. After all, the CBO projected the healthcare bill to save more money in the first 10 years of full implementation (meaning the period beginning 2020) than in the initial six year period you are referring to, despite the larger costs.
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