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[Azrael]

I went to a Catholic school for Elementary, Middle, a Jesuit run high school, and a 'Christian' University. So I've gone to 'religious institutions' my entire life. They aren't the same.

It was a tradition at one time in a lot of Catholic families that at least one child in the family would grow up to become a priest or a nun. As a result, a lot of people got pushed by their families into the clergy that never wanted to be there. This is why there were so many mean old nuns and priests - bitter, miserable people who hated how their lives turned out and took it out on everyone else. That kind of stuff is pretty uncommon these days, and people enter the clergy because they want to. The priests and nuns that taught at my high school and college were all nice, well-adjusted people for the most part. It wasn't like that in my mother's day at Catholic school, however.

I really can't see this kind of thing happening in a Catholic high school these days. One of the girls our senior year got pregnant, and while of course we were all taught to be celibant, the faculty was completely supportive of her. There were no openly gay students in our class, but I don't think they would have expelled anyone for being gay either.

 

[MrPing1000]

These people are scum. Infact they are less than scum

 

[Crow357]

This is absolutely obsurd. I am annoyed by so-called "Christians" as described above. You know? The ones who are nosy and looking to make other "sinners" look bad. I'm sure the principal got the utmost of a thrill by telling that kid's parents he was gay. I grew up/live in a home with a very conservative Christian mother and I know if I told her I was gay (if I was) how tough it would be to deal with and like the principal just didn't care. It's such a shame. They act as though he chose the lifestyle but this kid sounded like he was an all around good guy and they didn't even care to help him while he already probably felt bad enough growing up being told that it is wrong and having that jammed down his throat. He obviously needed that site as an outlet. Also, I'm sure the asshole that reported him for having the site felt so damn great about it like he was doing "God's work" yet getting a sick thrill out of ruining someone else's life.

I could go on for hours.

I couldn't agree more. It's really a shame when we just tear each other down to somehow make ourselves feel more powerful.

 

[madara]

Wow this makes me want to cry its just so wrong. I would imagine it same ignorance woman faced before they got "rights", africa americans, and poor piano that was considered "devil's tool" way back when.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Most upsetting to me is the wedge this drives between this person and his faith. I know a few religious gay people, and it always seems like it must be extra difficult for them.

 

[Teflar]

"I feel completely violated," said the student, who had attended Trinity Christian since kindergarten. "The big lesson here for me is that you can't really trust anybody. That, and I should have kept my mouth shut."

Not to bash on Christianity, as I think all religions are pools of hypocritical dogma brainwashing, but it seems to me that this is almost the lesson that is taught at Churches. Sit down, shut up, and play by our rules or get out.

Other religions do this as well, don't get me wrong. As an agnostic raised in a jewish family, I will greatly dissapoint my family by not marrying a Jew, not giving my son a bris, what have you. But they are not about to expel me or tell me I am not welcome in a Temple for say, my brother's Bar Mitzvah...

I dunno. Overall religion is an institution that at best needs to be re-looked at and at worst abolished.

 

[KingGondo]

At least we can take comfort that this will probably help him more in the long run if he plays his cards right--he's now known as a national gay-rights story. Get the ACLU on his side, and he'll get a lot of sympathy from younger Americans.

To Dice:

It blows my mind that people still conceive of simply being gay as a sin, and that there are no laws protecting homosexuals in Texas. Sorry, but there comes a point when logical reasoning has to overcome Biblical scripture, especially in modern times--anyone who suggests that this was "right" is a moron.

 

[Phoenix]

It all makes sense now.

And what sense would that make?

 

[Phoenix]

I have a friend that did exactly that, and he's a atheist just like me! :lol I only went through elementary and Jesuit highschool, but he did the whole damn thing like you did. Ah... St.Xavier high.... You took the best years of my life away, WITHOUT ANY DAMN GIRLS TO LOOK AT DURING CLASSES!

Yep, but not having any girls there sure as hell focussed me on class during school Just showing the people that church == religious school nonsense doesn't fly. In fact at Jesuit and Xavier my Theology courses engaged in active reexamination of belief, because that's what Theology is, how people have tried to use science and physics to justify some of religions claims, the beliefs of various religions, etc. The problem with people without this background is that they lack considerable understanding about the 'other side of the fence' which makes some debate impossible - that people who are religious or believe in God are 'uneducated fools'.

But anyways, back to the show.

 

[Phoenix]

Most upsetting to me is the wedge this drives between this person and his faith. I know a few religious gay people, and it always seems like it must be extra difficult for them.

I know plenty, mostly because I have a cousin who is a lesbian. She lives in California and attends church there openly and people know she's gay, where she works they know she's gay. Where I work I know plenty people who are gay. Where I live (Atlanta) there are commercials by some churches that are openly saying 'hey we welcome you if you're gay because we love you for who you are'.

The world isn't just what you see on the news.

 

[Dice]

To Dice:

It blows my mind that people still conceive of simply being gay as a sin, and that there are no laws protecting homosexuals in Texas. Sorry, but there comes a point when logical reasoning has to overcome Biblical scripture, especially in modern times--anyone who suggests that this was "right" is a moron.

The temptation wouldn't be sinful, but approval and promotion of homosexuality would be. The thing about this case is that it gets very tricky. On the one hand, there are scriptural commands regarding sin that should be followed, but on the other hand It's not like the kid had made up his mind on these issues and then purposely went to a school that had policies in disagreement with him. He was just raised there, and as such when this stuff came about he was stuck there.

The school wasn't as gracious as they should have been in talking to him about the situation, the teaching of scripture, giving him a chance to make up his mind in the issue, etc. They just gave him the boot right quick, and that isn't right. I mean any teenager would go through the same thing, just in a heterosexual way. Would they mind a person talking about their struggles resisting temptation of sexual relations outside of marriage? If not, they shouldn't treat this kid different.

What it would come down to is whether he was acting on it or promoting homosexuality in any way, and if he felt it right to continue after being presented with the scriptural commandments against it and the call for repentance. That would have been the biblical thing to do.

Now I can't read your mind, so I don't know what your "logical reasoning" is talking about or concluding to, mind explaining? Also how could one create laws protecting homosexuals without creating a double standard? And if you were to remove that double standard and make it even then the schools would have no gounds for upholding their position on sexual morals at all.

What this really raises the question of is the nature of private schools and the development of morals in the individual. I mean it would be the parents ideal that their child continue in the moral pattern they raised them to follow and inasmuch be in good relations with the school they picked out for them, but that can't be guaranteed and it can lead to unfair losses such as this.

I don't know about protection specifically for homosexuals, but perhaps there needs to be something for individuals when they turn 18. I know of plenty of teens who violate private school regulations and are athiests and whatnot, but they keep it quiet to avoid things like this. So maybe parents and the schools need to work out a safeguarded educational plan for if their child grows to be an individual who disagrees with them. They probably don't even want to think about the possibility, but obviously it happens.

 

[Teflar]

The world isn't just what you see on the news.

No, its not. And I am sure there are many churches/religious schools that are open minded and realize that the wrold we live in today just MIGHT be different from the world, say, 1000 years ago. And they are the good religious people.

But for every open-minded religious sect, there will be others that promote discrimination and prejudice. If you went to a school that was not like that, good for you and I applaud your school. However, in this case, it was not the "Christian" thing to do to expel the student. The school is not a Church and it is within its rights to do what it did. That does not mean it is morally right. In this specific case religious "letter of the law" mentality is taking over and I think that is where a lot of this thread's moral outrage is coming from.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

I know plenty, mostly because I have a cousin who is a lesbian. She lives in California and attends church there openly and people know she's gay, where she works they know she's gay. Where I work I know plenty people who are gay. Where I live (Atlanta) there are commercials by some churches that are openly saying 'hey we welcome you if you're gay because we love you for who you are'.

The world isn't just what you see on the news.

I wasn't talking about the news, I was talking about people I know.

I don't know about Cali, but the people I am talking about are in the midwest and mid-atlantic.

And yes, I kow of churches that openly welcome gay members-- but I also know of a lot that don't. I think it's a shame (not a crime, not the end of the world) that this particular piece of dogma is so decisive. It hurts the communities in question (that being those churches that are not open). And they don't even realize it.

The school in this story is another example. They lose a bright, motivated, talented senior for what is, to me, no good reason.

 

[Phoenix]

I wasn't talking about the news, I was talking about people I know.

I don't know about Cali, but the people I am talking about are in the midwest and mid-atlantic.

And yes, I kow of churches that openly welcome gay members-- but I also know of a lot that don't. I think it's a shame (not a crime, not the end of the world) that this particular piece of dogma is so decisive. It hurts the communities in question (that being those churches that are not open). And they don't even realize it.

The school in this story is another example. They lose a bright, motivated, talented senior for what is, to me, no good reason.

People coming "out of the closet" happened not too long ago and churches accepting it happened not too long ago. Change takes time and while these situations are unfortunate (and in many cases unforgivable) its going to happen on the road to pushing these extremists into their little hole in the wall. Its happened in all areas of getting rid of a variety of extremisms. Not saying its okay, just saying that if they don't welcome him - he is better off somewhere where they don't cause him problems.

 

[Dilbert]

Dice, that's bullshit.

How about the person lives his/her own life, and God gives them a report card when they die? If Mr. All-Love-All-The-Time himself wants to throw them in the fire for being gay, that's his judgment to make (if he even exists, but I'm not going there today)...but since when do YOU get the right to speak for what is acceptable to God?

That's what really kills me about fundamentalist Christians. God is some super-mega-wicked-awesome thing on a plane we can't even understand...but somehow, us flawed humans are somehow supposed to act on his behalf and go around judging and persecuting non-believers? It's not like the big guy needs any of our help -- he can go around striking people down who offend him if he really wants to, and maybe the lazy jerk should start doing that for a change. I'd welcome lightning bolts from the sky far more than I would assholes who are just as "weak and flawed" as I am telling me how to make my shit smell like roses. No thank you.

 

[Phoenix]

Dice, that's bullshit.

How about the person lives his/her own life, and God gives them a report card when they die? If Mr. All-Love-All-The-Time himself wants to throw them in the fire for being gay, that's his judgment to make (if he even exists, but I'm not going there today)...but since when do YOU get the right to speak for what is acceptable to God?

IAWTP. That's exactly how I feel about it. If God wants to deal with gay people, he will. Its not our call. He didn't ask us to deal with it.

 

[olimario]

Christians aren't here to judge.
If the gay guy at this school acts on his homosexual desires, it is a sin. But it is no more of a sin than lying to someone, or fapping to porn, or or or...

Why the school has such a double standard on sin where God does not boggles my mind.

 

[Shogmaster]

Yep, but not having any girls there sure as hell focussed me on class during school

Didn't do me any good since my ADD kicked in full blast without any girls to look at.

Just showing the people that church == religious school nonsense doesn't fly. In fact at Jesuit and Xavier my Theology courses engaged in active reexamination of belief, because that's what Theology is, how people have tried to use science and physics to justify some of religions claims, the beliefs of various religions, etc. The problem with people without this background is that they lack considerable understanding about the 'other side of the fence' which makes some debate impossible - that people who are religious or believe in God are 'uneducated fools'.

But anyways, back to the show.

Sorry for sidetracking again, but did you go to Xavier University in Cincinnati per chance? I know there's bunch of "Xavier" universities and colleges, but it would be amusing if you went to one in Cincinnati (for no particular reason obcourse ).

Anyways, I always thought the whole Jesuit education philosophy was a small minority when it come to the whole Christian view in the States. You really can't use that as an example of the norm, can you?

 

[3phemeral]

Dice, that's bullshit.

How about the person lives his/her own life, and God gives them a report card when they die? If Mr. All-Love-All-The-Time himself wants to throw them in the fire for being gay, that's his judgment to make (if he even exists, but I'm not going there today)...but since when do YOU get the right to speak for what is acceptable to God?

That's what really kills me about fundamentalist Christians. God is some super-mega-wicked-awesome thing on a plane we can't even understand...but somehow, us flawed humans are somehow supposed to act on his behalf and go around judging and persecuting non-believers? It's not like the big guy needs any of our help -- he can go around striking people down who offend him if he really wants to, and maybe the lazy jerk should start doing that for a change. I'd welcome lightning bolts from the sky far more than I would assholes who are just as "weak and flawed" as I am telling me how to make my shit smell like roses. No thank you.

My mom and I argue this point all the time. I've had this belief for years and somehow some of them don't see it as "judging" but moreso along the lines of "saving their soul". It saddens me to no end that the justification for imposing religious morale concerning this particular issue is policed in any fashion.

 

[Phoenix]

Didn't do me any good since my ADD kicked in full blast without any girls to look at.



Sorry for sidetracking again, but did you go to Xavier University in Cincinnati per chance? I know there's bunch of "Xavier" universities and colleges, but it would be amusing if you went to one in Cincinnati (for no particular reason obcourse ).

Anyways, I always thought the whole Jesuit education philosophy was a small minority when it come to the whole Christian view in the States. You really can't use that as an example of the norm, can you?

Xavier University of Louisiana

And in terms of private schools, the Jesuit education philos is pretty much par for the course. In New Orleans the schools Brother Martin, St. Augustine, Jesuit, Cabrini, Xavier Prep, etc. are all pretty much in the same boat in terms of what is taught and how theology is used. These are all college prep high schools focussed on generating scholars ready for college and beyond. Jesuits motto of "Men for Others" pretty much hilights some of their use of 'religion'. The school has a stong commitment to service and using your abilities not just for yourself but in service to others because that's what "we should be doing". Can't speak to other school districts and states, but pretty much all of New Orleans school systems under the 'Christian religious banner' are the same. No one is trying to brain wash you, no one is trying to make you become a Christian (it isn't required), no one is going to try to get you to accept creationist philosophy or anything else. These are places of learning who receive some backing from the local archdiocese and you will be going to some classes that teach Theology (and from much of the conversation on GAF - people here are pretty clueless about what Theology entails), but there isn't any 'judgement' placed on you by the faculty irregardless of who or what you are.

I personally would love to send my children there because as a school it was excellent and gave me such a leg up on college that until I reached junior year when I was doing most of my theoretical comp sci classes I was pretty much cruising AND picked up scholarship during the freshman year.

 

[Phoenix]

My mom and I argue this point all the time. I've had this belief for year and somehow some of them don't see it as "judging" but moreso along the lines of "saving their soul". It saddens me to no end that the justification for imposing religious morale concerning this particular issue is policed in any fashion.

I have this argument with a lot of 'fundamentalist' Christians as well. If someone doesn't want to be saved - you won't save them. You may get them to say what you want them to say, but if they don't believe it - what was the point.

People 'convert' because they want to convert. I went to one church in Virginia where they actually wanted people to believe in Christianity and their take on it before even allowing them to be members of the church. I didn't even see any point in attending that church despite how I liked the sermons because I couldn't believe how short sighted some people can be. "Why should they be here if they don't believe?" Well dumbass - if they are here at all, why are you going to pre judge them by telling them they can't eventually 'convert' by being a member.

I recently fell out of favor with a church here in Atlanta because they decided to have a 'march against homosexuality'. I was like 'who the hell do you think you are to openly endorse discrimination against anyone....as a freaking church... and a black one at that!' Then I found a place that I could worship where they really meant 'come as you are and listen to the word'. You didn't have to get all dressed up, they didn't even care if you were a christian. if you wanted to hear preachings and interpretation of the bible - you were welcome. This is the church where I'll be.

While I'm not the most religious of people - I find it offensive to believe that God would want us discriminating against anyone.

 

[Die Squirrel Die]

And in terms of private schools, the Jesuit education philos is pretty much par for the course. In New Orleans the schools Brother Martin, St. Augustine, Jesuit, Cabrini, Xavier Prep, etc. are all pretty much in the same boat in terms of what is taught and how theology is used. These are all college prep high schools focussed on generating scholars ready for college and beyond. Jesuits motto of "Men for Others" pretty much hilights some of their use of 'religion'. The school has a stong commitment to service and using your abilities not just for yourself but in service to others because that's what "we should be doing". Can't speak to other school districts and states, but pretty much all of New Orleans school systems under the 'Christian religious banner' are the same. No one is trying to brain wash you, no one is trying to make you become a Christian (it isn't required), no one is going to try to get you to accept creationist philosophy or anything else. These are places of learning who receive some backing from the local archdiocese and you will be going to some classes that teach Theology (and from much of the conversation on GAF - people here are pretty clueless about what Theology entails), but there isn't any 'judgement' placed on you by the faculty irregardless of who or what you are.

Aye I went to a Jesuit school for 2 years as well, and what you describe is completely along the lines of my experience (and my mother still teaches there, and my dad and uncles all went there as well so I have a long association to draw on as well as my own experience). It certainly wasn't about indoctrinating everyone into brainless Christian sheep, I know the early theology lessons weren't so open, but the ones in later years actively encouraged us to question our faith. There was even that wonderful lesson where the headmaster demonstrated how Hell does not exist, that it is actually theology impossible to believe in a Christian God and Hell. I wish I could remember the exact argument though, I wasn't paying much attention and it was rather complicated.

 

[Dice]

Dice, that's bullshit.

How about the person lives his/her own life, and God gives them a report card when they die? If Mr. All-Love-All-The-Time himself wants to throw them in the fire for being gay, that's his judgment to make (if he even exists, but I'm not going there today)...but since when do YOU get the right to speak for what is acceptable to God?

2 Corinthians 4:2
Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

2 Corinthians 5:20
We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.

Colossians 1:28
Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ.

1 Peter 4:10-11a
Each one should use whatever gift he has received to serve others, faithfully administering God's grace in its various forms. 11If anyone speaks, he should do it as one speaking the very words of God.

Christians are told to faithfully speak the word of God, to be witnesses of the message He has given us in the scriptures.

That's what really kills me about fundamentalist Christians. God is some super-mega-wicked-awesome thing on a plane we can't even understand...but somehow, us flawed humans are somehow supposed to act on his behalf and go around judging and persecuting non-believers?

All men stand judged and worthy of hell, only Christ has atoned for sins and so Christians are to preach a message of faith and repentance in Him in accordance with the sctiprues. What exactly do you mean by pursecuting non-christians? Like this kid here? This is different from the approach to unbelievers. I thought I had already explained the interworkings of this situation and what pricniples scripture gives in how to handle it.

It's not like the big guy needs any of our help -- he can go around striking people down who offend him if he really wants to, and maybe the lazy jerk should start doing that for a change. I'd welcome lightning bolts from the sky far more than I would assholes who are just as "weak and flawed" as I am telling me how to make my shit smell like roses. No thank you.

That is the point of the gospel. It isn't about bring perfect and earning your way to God (if we had that ability Christ wouldn't be needed) but in faith and repentance accepting Christ, and He cleanses us from our sins before God.

1 John 1
8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. 2:1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense–Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Monk]

His comments on the subject, it seems the site is mereoly there for talk about homosexual issues.

On a personal note from myself, the owner; I do not believe what TCA did was right. It was not Biblical; however, it was in their power. Trinity has the right to expel me for looking at them the wrong way. The issue was strictly political as the Dallas Morning News said, they did what they believed was best for the community.

In my opinion Trinity was doing what was best for their image. They have displayed multiple times in my time at TCA places where they will turn their head to actions that they claim specifically in their handbook is wrong. For instance, cheaters who are allowed to get by because their parents are large financial contributors to the school; or an instance where a girl was allowed to stay at TCA after being busted for drugs when her parents donated a new wing. Not to mention further the 3rd party vendor which was double charging meals and pocketing the extra cast; TCA never recognized or responded to the problem. Trinity claims that if you come to the school in seek of help they will not expel you. What they fail to leave out is they will not expel you if the issue is kept “closeted” from the general Trinity public.

In all of this, a statement I made a few weeks ago is appropriate for the ending:

It is not my intention for this to reflect negatively on Christians or Christianity. I myself am a Christian, a strong one at that. While the acts of this school may not necessarily reflect the actions of a Christian community, I will assure you from what I have been told that this WAS NOT the feelings of the community. Unfortunately, TCA acted against the will of many students, parents and faculty. I ask that you do not hold this against Christians or their beliefs but if anything a mistake that has been made.

Thanks for the support I have received from many, I wish you all happy holidays!

It was at my-boi.com

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Phoenix: the Jusiut order is cool. I think one trap is to lump all Christians into one bucket. The Jesuits are the spreaders and keepers of knowledge, exactly not the type who push creationism into public schools.

 

[IJoel]

This is so sickening.

I am utterly disgusted by these kind of people. Things like this do nothing but make me move away farther from the church. It is a fantastic thing that you don't need such ignorant fools to practice religion.

 

[Date of Lies]

I think religion sucks and not alot of people "use" religion properly.

This only pushes my opinion further.

 

[Hitokage]

2 Corinthians 4:2
Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

2 Corinthians 5:20
We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.

Colossians 1:28
Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ.

1 Peter 4:10-11a
Each one should use whatever gift he has received to serve others, faithfully administering God's grace in its various forms. 11If anyone speaks, he should do it as one speaking the very words of God.

Christians are told to faithfully speak the word of God, to be witnesses of the message He has given us in the scriptures.

Where do ANY of those say "judge others in god's name". You're STILL bullshitting.

 

[Phoenix]

Where do ANY of those say "judge others in god's name". You're STILL bullshitting.

Yep. Clearly overlooking one of the most important passages in the Bible if you ask me

Romans 12:19-21, where Paul writes, "19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20 No, "if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads." 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." (NRSV)

God doesn't ask us to take on his battles for him. Everything I've read in the Bible says that we should be good to ourselves AND or enemies and God will deal with it in his way, and I'm cool with this.

 

[Dice]

Where do ANY of those say "judge others in god's name". You're STILL bullshitting.

1) Define what you mean by "judge"
2) Are you ignoring my previous post regarding 1 Corinthians 5 and scriptural commandments regarding the purity of the church?

 

[Dice]

A few more questions...

A) in 2 Corinthians 4:2 what may it be speaking of that is on man's conscience?

B) in 2 Corinthians 5:20 why would someone need to reconciled to God (what caused the rift?) and how do they do that?

C) in Colossians 1:28 what would they be warning everyone about?

D) If someone were going to run through a minefield would it be wrong and unloving to tell them that is something they shouldn't do and they should turn back?

 

[cvxfreak]

Well this news story certainly makes me sick.

 

[3phemeral]

D) If someone were going to run through a minefield would it be wrong and unloving to tell them that is something they shouldn't do and they should turn back?

I like this analogy. It coincides with what I hear about all the time, "i'm trying to save you."

That's complete ass. For one, you'd have to assume that by denying rights somehow "saves" me -- but before you even make that assumption, you'd have to come to the conclusion that I also share the same ideologies. There's a glaring error in that connection you've made, I hope you can make a distinction between the beliefs you impose on others (seemingly under the guise of 'good will') and the person(s) you feel need to be "saved".

 

[cvxfreak]

^The dangers of minefields and homosexuality are equal. Only in ___[insert place here]___!

 

[Zaptruder]

Just going by this thread...

I think most of the sinners would be much happier away from 'Godly' people like Dice and away from the arbitarily judgemental God that he worships, in hell where most of the sane rational minds will go. Arbitarily of course.

If that was the case, it would be a win win situation for everyone...

 

[CurlySaysX]

The School did the right thing, I applaud them for not being spineless and doing what they knew was right.

 

[Mega Man's Electric Sheep]

"D) If someone were going to run through a minefield would it be wrong and unloving to tell them that is something they shouldn't do and they should turn back?"

There's telling them to turn back, which is one thing. But what happens is telling them they're going to hell for being in the minefield instead of the field next door to it. And telling them they should be discriminated against for hanging out in the minefield. And in this case, they told the guy he could no longer come to the field next door instead of trying to deal with the fact that he was in a minefield.


Wait a second, your analogy is absolutely disgusting. If anything, organized religion is the minefield.

 

[Dice]

I like this analogy. It coincides with what I hear about all the time, "i'm trying to save you."

That's complete ass. For one, you'd have to assume that by denying rights somehow "saves" me

Since when are we talking about denying rights? I'm talking about how you would warn a person who claims to be a Christian and yet professes acceptance of things to the contrary. If a person claimed to be a Christian and yet said it was ok to worship Odin they would be promoting idolatry, a sin, and so you would warn them. If homosexuality is taught in scripture to be a sin, why would the method change?

but before you even make that assumption, you'd have to come to the conclusion that I also share the same idologies. There's a glaring error in that connection you've made, I hope you can make a distinction between the beliefs you impose on others (seemingly under the guise of 'good will') and the person(s) you feel need to be "saved".

As I said earlier, there is a difference in how you respond towards those who claim to be outside of your community of shared faith/beliefs and how you deal with those who claim to be a part of it while saying and acting to the contrary.

There's telling them to turn back, which is one thing. But what happens is telling them they're going to hell for being in the minefield instead of the field next door to it. And telling them they should be discriminated against for hanging out in the minefield. And in this case, they told the guy he could no longer come to the field next door instead of trying to deal with the fact that he was in a minefield.

When did I approve of the schools actions?

I'm getting tired of people ignoring my previous statements and assuming things I never stated. Talk about judging, I'm just trying to understand each other here.

 

[Mega Man's Electric Sheep]

Well, you are assuming things I never stated, for I didn't say you approved of the school's actions. Read what I wrote again. I said warning them is one thing, but it often leads to discrimination and hatred. And drop the persecution complex please. It is a touchy subject, but I assure you we are not out to get you.

 

[DaMan121]

"D) If someone were going to run through a minefield would it be wrong and unloving to tell them that is something they shouldn't do and they should turn back?"

Great analogy... as if homesexuality is anything like a minefield... But I agree with DICE in that liberal Christianity is absurd. The stupid book says a zillion things, containing a zillion condradictions. Pick and choose all you like, but its hard to ignore the nasty stuff in it. The fact is that it was written a thousand of years ago by backward, superstitious old men, who didnt know better... We SHOULLD know better today, yet some of us dont.

 

[Dice]

Ok, though statements like Zaptruder's, 3pheMeraLmiX's assumptions as to what I would have "had" to do in my mind make me think to the contrary. And you said my analogy was disgusting, and since what you stated disgust with was not actually my analogy I'd assumed you meant that is how you were taking what I had said.

BTW in my analogy the minefield would be hell and the person is merely making their way toward it. Their approval of the idea being representative of their approval of sin. And yes I agree that people disagree on what is sinful, but remember I am talking about actions within a community of shared faith. Though even if they didn't belong to your shared faith you'd still want to warn them in accordance with scripture.

Go ahead and forget the analogy, but I'd still be interested in answers to my other questions. It's one thing to say you disagree with certain actions, but it's another thing entirely to say they are unbiblical and were never commanded.

Though I'm starting to think this isn't the place to discuss this. Everyone disagrees in different ways with different views on scripture and christianity and yet all reply to me as if I were speaking to them. It's too complex to be finding understanding of each other by going on in such a way and not one-on-one.

 

[DaMan121]

Though I'm starting to think this isn't the place to discuss this. Everyone disagrees in different ways with different views on scripture and christianity and yet all reply to me as if I were speaking to them.

I think debate on this issue isnt possible because it always falls back on the "it says so in the bible". Give me a rational, logical argument against homesexuality, then maybe progress can be made. IMO, using the "thou shall not judge" route is moronic... we should use the "thou have unsupported and stupid beliefs" route, as as we did for religious support of slavery, racism, interracial relationships etc.

 

[DCharlie]

Romans 12:19-21, where Paul writes, "19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20 No, "if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads." 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. 21* Noteth though, that if the man has laid with another man, or a woman has got rid of her unborn, verily just pluck mine words from this book to justify your vengence."

Fixed.

I want to show my devotion to god, wonder what the best way to do that is.... *thumbs through the good book* Oh, sacrifice the first child? Sounds good.

 

[Kai Dracon]

IMHO, the "homosexual" issue that Christianity is currently wracked by, will in time become a footnote in history - right alongside various other religious craziness that once was the solem Word of God, Immutable to Kingdom Come... and later quietly overturned and shoved in the closet as whack-ass interpretations of doctrine that were incompatible with basic human life and common sense.

A Christian I once read remarked the following:

Where doctrine denies life, the interpretation of doctrine is flawed. Where any interpretation of doctrine denies life, that doctrine is false.

In other words, no matter how much some (many, even most) Christians based their life and eternal salvation on the idea that the Bible as written is the true "word of God" or "account of Jesus Christ"... the down to earth fact will always remain that even IF Jesus Christ was the bonafide son of God, if EVERY miracle he performed really happened, the Bible is paper and human words. Human words written by men who's veracity and honor has itself been elevated to superhuman, divine status. This is a big problem I've always had with how the Bible is regarded by most Christians I've known. The linchpin of the religion is that man is flawed and needs to be saved. All men. No men are above mortal frailty - everyone is one before God and Jesus. Because of this, blind assumptions that what is written in the Bible is accurate is, IMHO, a grave mistake. Hell, scholars have long debated whether key biblical figures had their own political motivations, that would have led them to warp the accounts they retold or outright fabricate.

On the subject of things like homosexuality - and mind you, I'm not a Christian even, my opinion is that based on everything attributed to the persona of Jesus Christ, that if two men or women went up to Christ and said "Jesus, we're human beings and we love each other", Jebus would give 'em a big thumbs up and sign the goddamn marriage license himself.

Of course, my feelings are also partly based on my inherent distrust of religious ideas wherein the Gods make totally "arbitrary" decrees and people are expected to go "ayup, they know best, we must obey". I don't rule out the possibility there is a God, gods, or something like them in the universe. I also don't think they give a damn which monkeys are sleeping in the bed of other monkeys.

 

[Kabuki Waq]

"I feel completely violated"


wouldnt he be enoying it then?



:lol :lol :lol Im so sorry

 

[RaymondCarver]

I love Texas. I'm never leaving except to visit elsewhere.

I'll always live here unless I'm paid a seven figure income.




If you want to see what it's really like to be a great Christian, watch Joel Osteen when he's braodcast from Houston or go to his website www.joalosteen.com and check out his National Best Seller book Your Best Life Now People know him as the smiling preacher. He'd know what to say in this situation.

But he'd probably agree that the kid should not be able to go to that school anymore. Being a popular figure in school, it's the school's job to make an example of him. Sorry. That's just the way it is, folks.


I pray his life'll be good in his college years.

Edit: I know it and this kid knows it: This, too, shall pass. The only time we have is right now, and the only people that matter are those right before us. This guy's life is going to be alright. I don't think people should get huffy over it. Church is seperate from state, and this school just wanted this kid seperate from it. By this time next year it'll be no big deal, and this kid'll have his life on track. I, at least, have faith he will.

 

[Dice]

Ehhhh... I don't see how Joel is such a great example. His message, ministry and use of money nowhere near resembles that of Christ and the apostles life and teachings. He seems to be another health and wealth preacher from the word of faith movement (from which several heretics have come) I mean he has some nice things to say, but his vision and practice of christianity is very different from the pattern of the apostles which Paul said all christians should come to follow in Philippians 3. I'd say a good example is someone like Dorothy Day back in her time, or today K.P. Yohannan.

 

[soepkip]

But he'd probably agree that the kid should not be able to go to that school anymore. Being a popular figure in school, it's the school's job to make an example of him. Sorry. That's just the way it is, folks.

You've been seriously brainwashed, fucking middle age moron.

 

[Phoenix]

Romans 12:19-21, where Paul writes, "19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20 No, "if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads." 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. 21* Noteth though, that if the man has laid with another man, or a woman has got rid of her unborn, verily just pluck mine words from this book to justify your vengence."

Fixed.

I want to show my devotion to god, wonder what the best way to do that is.... *thumbs through the good book* Oh, sacrifice the first child? Sounds good.

WTH are you talking about?

 

[olimario]

If Joel would agree then Joel doesn't need to be a preacher.
This kid was dealing with temptation to sin and started a website to help others with their temptation.
Theres nothing wrong with being tempted.