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[MaverickX9]

I'm entering my senior year at school and I'm hoping to go on to law school after I graduate next year. I've been looking at a few schools and I've come across quite a conundrum. Every law school wants to see, on average, three letters of recommendation.

I'm the kind of student that just goes to class (most of the time, at least), sits in the back, and takes the tests with little or no interaction with the actual professors. There are only three or so professors that actually know my name and that was only because the class size was around 20 people or less. I rarely ever participate in class and I never go to see the professor outside of class. The professors know nothing about me. I do get good grades in mostly all my classes, though.

So, my question is, how well should you know a professor (or vice versa) in order to ask them for a letter of recommendation? Would it be out of line for me to ask a teacher that I've had twice (and aced her class both times) for a letter of recommendation, even though the said teacher knows nothing about me other than I got a good mark in her class?

Anybody with any advice/past experiences?

 

[Pudding Tame]

Just ask man, most profs know whats at stake when you ask for LORs. Besides, it doesn't really sound like you have a choice. Who else could you possibly ask for a decent letter? Your RA?

Though you probably could have helped you case, if you stayed after class to ask some questions. Get your face seen. If you have time, do this a few times before you ask.

 

[Aruarian Reflection]

Have you done any internships? Those are good sources of recommendations.

 

[videogamer]

Ideally you should have been working on this stuff since your freshman or sophomore years. Stuff I hear all the time from advisors:

1. Office hours and sitting in the front. Hopefully you are taking classes with some professors you've already studied with. At this point, you are going to have to just ask them for the letter--about one or two months before it's due. There are teachers who will write letters for students that got a certain percentile or an A+.... you really need to ask everyone at this point in the application cycle.
2. Yes internships and research can help, but if you haven't done any yet, it's pretty late now.
3. Do you volunteer anywhere? Volunteering at an after-school program, helping out at the hospital, or going on a mission trip overseas are ways of getting letters. These people are used to people asking for letters.

 

[KingGondo]

As someone said before, you'll just have to ask for letters from profs whose classes you did well in, whether you know them or not. Ideally you would at least speak up in class, or do some individual work with them, but it's too late now.

If you go in during office hours to talk to them, explain your situation, and maybe remind them how you did in their class, they shouldn't mind. Good luck...

 

[Synth_floyd]

Just suck it up and ask the teacher(s) you knew hte most

 

[demon]

I hate that letter of recommendation shit. Doing well in class wasn't enough? Now I gotta "speak up" with a bunch of bullshit and suck your ass after class so you can write me a letter?



Needless to say, I'm kinda screwed on the LoR front, and I'm graduated.

 

[fart]

WHOOPS

 

[MaverickX9]

I'm did an internship freshman year, but my uncle was my "boss" - I don't know if that would count :lol

I'm also helping out with a research program through the Psych department right now, so I'm thinking I can brown nose a little with that job and ask my boss.

I figure I have one in the bag with my research job, but I guess I'm just going to have to email a few professors and hope they'll help me out a bit.

 

[Dan]

I figure I have one in the bag with my research job, but I guess I'm just going to have to email a few professors and hope they'll help me out a bit.

If you want their help, you should go actually meet with them. An email isn't going to cut it.

 

[MaverickX9]

If you want their help, you should go actually meet with them. An email isn't going to cut it.

Well, the ones I would email are the ones that I've had multiple times - the few that know who I am.

I suppose it would be better to actually ask them in person, though. Good idea.

 

[Bluecondor]

Hey - since you are interested in law school - I can definitely give you some advice. I am a professor at Pitt, and I write letters of rec for my students applying to law school all the time. In fact, I am a huge proponent of this, because I have had letters make a positive and negative difference in my own educational career (for example - I had one prof blow off writing a letter for me, and - luckily, I had a back-up/fourth letter. If I had not gotten this back-up letter, my application would have been incomplete, and I would never have been admitted to the Ph.D. Program). Anyway - I really take this to heart.

Law school is always a challenging letter for me - usually in a good way. The law school admissions process is absolutely brutal. The best and worst thing about law school admissions is that you know exactly where you stand before you even apply. Your LSAT score (75%) and undergrad GPA (25%) (these weights occasionally vary from school to school or year to year, but not by much) are the first screen. Basically - if you don't have an LSAT score that is at least within the ballpark of a school's range, you have no chance. But - if you score above their mean and/or median, you have a great chance at getting in.

So - here is what usually happens. In rare instances, a student will get a 172, and have a 3.8 GPA. This is incredibly fun. With numbers like that, the student can apply to any law school in the country (including Harvard, Yale and Stanford), and have a reasonable shot at getting in. And - many schools will offer a full ride. My letter means very little in this case.

What sometimes happens, unfortunately, is that a student will have his or her hopes set on a good school with competitive admissions standards. Unfortunately, that student will have a low GPA and/or an LSAT score that is nowhere near the level of the schools he or she is targeting. In this case, I could write the most glorious letter in the world, sign it "Oliver Wendell Holmes" on official Supreme Court letterhead, and the admissions committee will never even read it.

But - what usually happens is that a student chooses a range of schools (1 or 2 reaches that you really want, 4 or 5 competitive schools for someone with your numbers, 1 or 2 safety schools that you would actually attend - where your numbers are in their 75th percentile) and then the student and I work together - knowing that he or she is "on the bubble." Working with the mindset that the student is "on the bubble" is key. The main goal then becomes that the student's personal statement and my letter of recommendation state similar themes which make a credible case as to why the student is a serious and legitimate candidate for admission to law school (i.e. we demonstrate that the student has requisite skills and is making a mature and focused decision that will lead to a promising career in a specific legal area). My job is to validate and extend the student's personal statement with my observations of the student's qualifications for law school and professorial interpretations of their academic skills).

So - bottom line - you need to go into it with this mindset. If you want to talk more about this, and if you want some advice on which professors to pick and how to go about it, I'd be happy to talk with you further. I can also give you some pointers on your essay - as this is something I do all the time.

If not - good luck man! It is a long and brutal process - but - it definitely makes you stronger....

 

[Bluecondor]

I just had to add this to this thread....

One of my students came to me yesterday and asked for a letter that will evaluate him, in-depth, on five different areas (academic achievement, commitment to professional development, commitment to campus service, citizenship and overall potential).

You're talking a three page letter here....

Oh - he needs it before 12 today....

Word of advice Maverick....DON'T be "that guy"

 

[MaverickX9]

Hey - since you are interested in law school - I can definitely give you some advice. ...

Wow, this post was beyond anything I could have asked for. Thank you!

I have a few questions that you may be able to help me with.

What would the correct timing be to ask for a letter? I am taking my LSAT in early December, so I figure to have my scores by the beginning of the spring semester. That will give me a better idea of which law schools I should be targeting. I was planning on asking a prof or two for a letter in January when school resumes. Most schools that I've been looking at (Temple, St. John's, & comparable) have March 1, 2006 or later deadlines. Would asking a professor for a letter of rec during the first week or so of January leave them enough time?

Also, I take it from your post that you would recommend that I write my personal statement prior to asking for letters of rec. Is that fair to assume?

Is there any type of variability I should go for with my letters of recommendation? I was planning on asking one professor, my internship boss from a few years ago (who happens to be my uncle), and my boss from my current job. I figure that would give me some type of range with my letters, rather than just having them all be from professors.

Finally, what is your opinion of a student asking you for a letter if you don't really know that student? Does it happen often? As I said before, I'm not real familiar with any of my professors (or, rather, they are not familiar with me). I have had some professors multiple times, enough for them to know me by name and know that my work is usually pretty good, but not much more than that.

My grades are decent, but nothing special. I have a 3.40 GPA at the moment - due in large part to a 2.56 from one semester of O-Chem and Bio. Outside of that one 2.56, my GPA has consistently been in the 3.45-3.75 range.


What's weird about this is that I am actually a Psych major at Pitt, myself. :lol

What's up with our crappy football team? Losing to OU? :lol

I just had to add this to this thread....

One of my students came to me yesterday and asked for a letter that will evaluate him, in-depth, on five different areas (academic achievement, commitment to professional development, commitment to campus service, citizenship and overall potential).

You're talking a three page letter here....

Oh - he needs it before 12 today....

Word of advice Maverick....DON'T be "that guy"

:lol

I would be embarrassed to ask somebody that the day before I needed it. That is really funny.

 

[Bluecondor]

OK - let's see - I'll respond to some of this here - just in case other people are thinking about this as well....

As far as the choice of who to write for you goes, you have to think about it in terms of your competition. In general, three strong letters from professors (or two strong letters from professors + one from an employer who is willing to talk about your work and your ambitions for a career in law) would be the ideal, simply because you are applying for admission to graduate school - which has a heavy academic emphasis. Like I mentioned above, if you are "on the bubble", you have to think about where your letters and personal statement will put you in relation to the other candidates applying who will have similar LSAT scores and GPAs as you (i.e. where letters and the personal statement make the most difference).

In general, a good law school letter has two components: First - a credible evaluator attests to your ability to perform in areas that will be useful in law school/career in law. This is why I always include a section of a paper that my students write and show their ability to reason and draw rational conclusions. In short - you need someone who can go into detail on your academic skills - as opposed to someone who can only say "Maverick is a great student."

Second - the evaluator should demonstrate their awareness and understanding of your interest in law school and your ambitions for a career in law. I would say that a good one-third to half of my letter goes into detail on and makes reference to why the candidate is pursuing law school/a career in the legal profession.

So - anyway - keeping these two points in mind, and remembering that your competition will be out there getting all different kinds of letters (including general letters of endorsement from big name judges and alumni of the school - neither of which count for much for people on the bubble, since they don't go into any detail), your best bet is to pick three people who are willing to work with you to reflect and describe the skills that you have and to convey that you are making a balanced and mature choice to pursue law school and a career in law. Professors are the best bet, especially if they are willing to work with you on your essay and their letter. Bosses can also be good though - if they are willing to take the time and go into detail.

You just want to avoid people who have no interest in working with you on your statement/the letter (even if they are the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court), since you know that they will be saying things that have no relation to what you are writing about in your statement. It's not that these letters are horrible - it's just that they are mediocre. You also want to avoid asking someone who doesn't know you at all - and will instead spend the whole letter talking about themselves and only talking about you in the most general of senses. That kind of letter does nothing for you whatsoever, and then really makes you look bad in comparison to someone who has three people validating their skills and ambitions and advocating for them.

Anyway - that is great that you are at Pitt. And - believe it or not - my office is in Sennott Square, so we are in the same building (as much as undergrad psych is in Sennott anyway). Stop by my office and we can talk for a few minutes about your specific questions. I have class until 1:00 on Fridays, and then I am here until 5:00. My e-mail address is steelerfan2k5@yahoo.com Let me know when you want to meet.