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[Viewt]

So I finished Part 1 of Marvel Comics: The Untold Story last night (which covers its history up until 1970) and read a bit beyond, so now I'm in like 1973. A few things that stick out:

- Most of the Marvel history that I've read (Tales to Astonish, Comic Book Comics) is very firmly in the "Stan Lee fucked over a lotta guys; Ditko, Kirby, Romita, etc all got screwed," and while TUS definitely goes into that, I think it paints a more conflicted person in Lee. It goes into his fits of depression in 50s and early 70s when he had to deal with seeing all of his friends leave the company (either because he was forced to fire them or because they'd all simply left to find other work). It talks about how, in public and in front of the bullpen guys, he was always really enthusiastic and very much Stan The Man, but in private, he was a pretty lonely guy.

- I've always kind of suspected it, but this really seals my opinion: Steve Ditko just sounds like an insufferable tool. Yes, he was a comics genius, but good lord would I not wanna hang out with that guy. One of my favorite bits in the book so far comes from when Stan and Ditko were collaborating on books but not speaking at all. Stan put something like, "Voted Most Likely to Succeed by Lee & Ditko!" on a Dr. Strange book and Ditko got all in a huff, saying, "I didn't take part in any voting proceedings!" For fuck's sake, Ditko. Lighten up. He really took that Ayn Rand garbage to the extreme.

- The idea that Stan Lee & Co would actually chat it up with fans who showed up at their Manhattan office in 60s and 70s is amazing. Like, all you had to do was walk in the door and you could tell Roy Thomas that you dug The Kree-Skrull War. Crazy.

I always preferred the original xmen 56 cover. I think Stan lee made Neil Adams change it because it obscured the logo

This actually came up in the book. Martin Goodman (who was in charge of approving covers at the time) axed it because he thought it was too dour. Neal Adams was under the assumption that he could do whatever he wanted at the time, so he kept pushing the boundaries of what was acceptable by the management. This was when he realized he didn't have the carte blanche he was promised.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

You can't say that double shipping has no effect on the sales numbers of titles that do so.

Can you say that it does? In any definitive way? I mean, sales numbers exist out there. I'll admit I'm too lazy to find out through those channels. I could ask some people though...

 

[Spike Spiegel]

At this point Hank should

Spoiler

probably think about forgoing clothes entirely.

 

[Father_Brain]

Haven't had a chance to read children's crusade yet but Heinberg's initial run was one of the best titles of the past decade

The original series was pretty damn good, even if it got a bit continuity-heavy towards the end.

Children's Crusade was a long way from terrible, sure, but it needed to be a lot better than it was to justify the twenty months it took to tell the story, let alone the four-year gap between YA #12 and CC #1.

And re: "That looks nothing like the young avengers I grew up with" - well, that makes more sense if you haven't read CC. YA Vol. 2 doesn't star most of the original cast because

Spoiler

Heinberg/Cheung mostly destroyed the original team by the end of CC.

 

[krypt0nian]

Sure. That's why comics are unable to garner new readers. That's why the Top 50 sellers are flooded with DC's single shipping books, and Marvel's are relegated to the bottom 200 or whatever, and why DC's top selling books regularly burst through the wall of 150-200k that has been the ceiling of comic book sales for the past, what, decade?

Oh, wait, hang on, none of that ever happens.

It's fine if you don't want to pay more, but I can't get behind this idea that it's getting in the way of sales in any kind of fact-driven manner, when it hasn't helped DC break through the piddling sales ceiling that every non-Pretty-Pony comic released in ten years has been languishing under. If somehow it kept Marvel books from charting in any kind of significant way, I'd believe you, but it doesn't.

See what you're doing is comparing Marvel to DC sales which is not the point at all. Who sells the most when the industry is laughably small is pointless. Those are not new readers. They are the same few readers month in and out.

It is a factor of keeping new readers out of comics, and I'm not sure why you're fighting so hard against that idea. There are more than one factor here.

You have no budget for comics. That's awesome. That's not true for the vast majority of readers, especially younger ones. This is affecting the industry negatively.

Of course the regular addicted man children are scooping up the comics. The same couple hundred thousand that do so every month, until they fall away and aren't replaced because in part by shitty sales tactics that Marvel is using here. They directly take advantage of the same foolish buyers that pick up a book for months and months on end when they admit it's terrible, just to complete a series.

They are well aware they have most devoted readers by the nutsack, and that's why they do this double shipped overpriced garbage. It escapes me why you would support this, but alas it seems you are willing to be an accomplice.

Sure Marvel sees this as a way to keep their head above water (they've given up on growing the userbase), but there's no way I'm going to lend them a hand when they are basically exploiters at this point. Hickman's Avengers is the only one I'm willing to throw a life preserver to.

Comics, man.

I dunno about you, but I don't have an unlimited comics budget so I'm always looking to maximize my entertainment dollar. The $16 commitment to two Marvel books would let me try check out four other books. And when there's stuff in the pipelines like Trillium and East of West, I'd much rather give books like that my money.

I'm not against more comics at all, that's my whole point-I want more for my money.

Exactly. In its way, Marvel is being wholly non-competitive as its forcing those few dollars to be used for an extra issue every month given the serial nature of monthlies, rather than some other just as worthy book, even to the detriment of their own single shipped books that fall by the wayside.

 

[Parch]

The business of comics doesn't have a pretty history. The road is littered with bitter employees.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

See what you're doing is comparing Marvel to DC sales which is not the point at all. Who sells the most when the industry is laughably small is pointless. Those are not new readers. They are the same few readers month in and out.

It is a factor of keeping new readers out of comics, and I'm not sure why you're fighting so hard against that idea. There are more than one factor here.

You have no budget for comics. That's awesome. That's not true for the vast majority of readers, especially younger ones. This is affecting the industry negatively.

Of course the regular addicted man children are scooping up the comics. The same couple hundred thousand that do so every month, until they fall away and aren't replaced because in part by shitty sales tactics that Marvel is using here. They directly take advantage of the same foolish buyers that pick up a book for months and months on end when they admit it's terrible, just to complete a series.

They are well aware they have most devoted readers by the nutsack, and that's why they do this double shipped overpriced garbage. It escapes me why you would support this, but alas it seems you are willing to be an accomplice.

Sure Marvel sees this as a way to keep their head above water (they've given up on growing the userbase), but there's no way I'm going to lend them a hand when they are basically exploiters at this point. Hickman's Avengers is the only one I'm willing to throw a life preserver to.

Comics, man.

Exactly. In its way, Marvel is being wholly non-competitive as its forcing those few dollars to be used for an extra issue every month given the serial nature of monthlies, rather than some other just as worthy book, even to the detriment of their own single shipped books that fall by the wayside.

I'm comparing DC to Marvel because empirically, one is doing it, the other isn't. It's like a little experiment! A control and a...whatever the other thing is.

As far as me "supporting" it. Like I said, I support good comics, full stop. I don't care if they come out weekly. I'm not going to get my socks in a knot because they're a) a dollar more or b) coming out more frequently. If it's a good comic, then I welcome the frequency.

I don't doubt that mainstream comics are supported by people who blindly buy series just to complete them but I'm sure you're not lumping in the guy who just took Iron Man off his pull list because the art sucked with the rest of those troglodytes.

Marvel's "exploitation" results in more comics written by Aaron or Hickman or Remender or drawn by Stuart Immonen. That has never been and will never be a bad thing. Ever.

 

[Viewt]

Comics are competing for the same entertainment time as film, television, music and browsing. Both price and friction-wise, it's still in the relative dark ages. I think they'll get there eventually, though. In a technological age that seems built for short-form, quickly-consumed entertainment, comic issues seem like the perfect fit.

Honestly, though, I don't really burden myself with the financial woes of the comics industry. Either it'll adapt and survive or it'll combust into an even more insular community than it already is. All I can do is buy the stuff I like.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Comics are competing for the same entertainment time as film, television, music and browsing. Both price and friction-wise, it's still in the relative dark ages. I think they'll get there eventually, though. In a technological age that seems built for short-form, quickly-consumed entertainment, comic issues seem like the perfect fit.

Honestly, though, I don't really burden myself with the financial woes of the comics industry. Either it'll adapt and survive or it'll combust into an even more insular community than it already is. All I can do is buy the stuff I like.

Bingo/Amen

 

[GrandHarrier]

On the one hand, I can understand why double shipping could be enjoyable; More of the comic I (should hopefully) love! But when I look at my 30+ DC pull list I have a hard time deciding which ones I'd cull. I mean, sure, there are some that are the last ones read and some I don't read until several have collected, but I've always been a variety guy. I want all sorts of experiences over the same one more often.

Double shipping does have the benefit of inflating Marvel's sales numbers. So I'm sure they certainly appreciate that.

 

[Acid08]

I'm out of state right now but can go pick up my books....if not for the fact that they're waiting at my LCS when I get back :<. I really really want to read Invincible and Manhattan Projects.

Marvel double shipping every single month on expensive titles is abhorrent. They're just grabbing for cash while over working the creative teams and, in the end, have a greater chance to put out projects that lose their quality over time(not that they seem to care). It especially pisses me of from the artists perspective, they end up getting worked so hard and not being able to do their best. See Moore with Deadpool.

 

[slightconfuse]

Demon knights is pretty awesome. Same to see Cornell going .

Thor and Avengers are the only double shipped comics I'm going to keep with. Also superior Spider-Man.

It just sucks to have so many artists on a book to meet deadlines.

One of the good thugs about BND was that you didn't need to read every issue if you didn't like writer. I skipped all of the gale and Guggenheim issues.

 

[Viewt]

Well, if there's anything double-shipping is going to mean the end of, it's one writer/one artist runs. The arc-long stint is already pretty common, so with this new initiative to double-ship all the time, it's only going to become more apparent.

Seems to be working out fine for Avengers, though. Aren't they up to #11 or some crazy shit now? I'd rather have that than the ungodly delays on Uncanny Avengers.

 

[Supermanisdead]

I haven't even kept up with what's coming out today from Marvel. Hopefully something good since last week was the Christmas coal of comics.

 

[Owzers]

I'm a little mixed on double shipping right now, because if i really like a book, I do enjoy reading it twice a month. I don't like revolving door art teams for every arc though, but i like a lot of artists so it doesn't always sour my reading. I do have a budget too, and things like triple shipping Ultron War makes sure i trade wait the book.

 

[slightconfuse]

Hickman has said avengers is double shipped is because he has to write 36 issues for marvel a year and said fuck it lets do it all st once .

Other title I have no idea other ham cash grab.

 

[krypt0nian]

Bottom line, it's only good for Marvel's bottom line, the industry be fucked.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Bottom line, it's only good for Marvel's bottom line, the industry be fucked.

Is there an "if" missing?

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Top Ten is Alan Moore's best work from the last decade. I have recently come to that decision, and that is FINAL

Promethea is good too, until they get to the Godhead and it turns into Alan Moore Lecture Hall 101. JH Willaims III is God, though.

 

[krypt0nian]

Is there an "if" missing?

Nope.

 

[slightconfuse]

So Warren Ellis novel Gun Machine, it out and you can buy it now.

http://www.amazon.com/Gun-Machine-Warren-Ellis/dp/0316187402

 

[ElNarez]

Those four spreads at the end of Flash #15 are pretty much the most clever thing anyone will do in comics in 2013. I'm calling it right the fuck now. Manapul and Buccelato are taking the comic game to the next fucking level, and it's fucking glorious.

 

[slightconfuse]

Those four spreads at the end of Flash #15 are pretty much the most clever thing anyone will do in comics in 2013. I'm calling it right the fuck now. Manapul and Buccelato are taking the comic game to the next fucking level, and it's fucking glorious.

agreed Flash is the best looking comic month in month out

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Those four spreads at the end of Flash #15 are pretty much the most clever thing anyone will do in comics in 2013. I'm calling it right the fuck now. Manapul and Buccelato are taking the comic game to the next fucking level, and it's fucking glorious.

Dang I need to get into that huh

 

[Acid08]

Those four spreads at the end of Flash #15 are pretty much the most clever thing anyone will do in comics in 2013. I'm calling it right the fuck now. Manapul and Buccelato are taking the comic game to the next fucking level, and it's fucking glorious.

Hm, I should read this.

 

[Banana Kid]

I am not into Beast's new look. He looks more like a monster than an animal.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Is this from the new All New X-Men people are talking about Beast?

 

[ElNarez]

Cat Beast was may off the mark in terms of what makes Beast work. He's the original "See, mutants might look weird but get over your pre-conceptions you dolts" in that he looks like he's the big strong guy who's kinda dumb but he's actually the smartest of the bunch. You can't get that across with a cat face because you don't expect cats to be dumb. You expect big gorillas to be somewhat dumb. That's why Ape-Beast is the best Beast. Bendis is totally right on this one.

e: Here's proof, also, a rare example of Hickman being dumb

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

WHAT HAPPENED

WHY IS THIS NOT BEING SPOILERED

 

[slightconfuse]

OH GOD BEAST LOOKS LIKE

Spoiler

BlueSwamp Thing or Wendingo

What the fuck.

Spoilers

click at your own risk.etc, etc

 

[ElNarez]

Beast changing is the least important thing about All-New X-Men #5. Why would this need to be spoiled, especially now that the book is out and you can buy it.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Beast changing is the least important thing about All-New X-Men #5. Why would this need to be spoiled, especially now that the book is out and you can buy it.

cuz it's only 1:30 and I don't get to my lcs until like 6 at the earliest?

i thought it was unspoken courtesy to at least wait until Thursday to unspoiler new book stuff.

if it ain't it should be

 

[kswiston]

Wait, do books still come out today? I thought with the holiday that they would be delayed until tomorrow.

 

[TheKaeptain]

OH GOD BEAST LOOKS LIKE

Spoiler

BlueSwamp Thing or Wendingo

What the fuck.

Spoilers

click at your own risk.etc, etc

Look better than the cat shit.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Wait, do books still come out today? I thought with the holiday that they would be delayed until tomorrow.

My LCS, America's Best LCS, Bergen Street Comics, just confirmed it on Twitter. Books are in.

 

[Raxus]

Sorry to barge in. I am a comic scrub and I really wanted to read the Shellshocked series. I couldn't find a new copy for amazon since they are all 80 bucks.

Also, is Sandman getting a anniversary edition printed? It is another comic I really want to check out.

 

[tim1138]

Those four spreads at the end of Flash #15 are pretty much the most clever thing anyone will do in comics in 2013. I'm calling it right the fuck now. Manapul and Buccelato are taking the comic game to the next fucking level, and it's fucking glorious.

Yep, and they do stuff like that almost every issue. That book is so so good.

 

[Acid08]

Beast changing is the least important thing about All-New X-Men #5. Why would this need to be spoiled, especially now that the book is out and you can buy it.

Not everyone can pick up their books right away you dick. This thread is so fucked when it comes to spoilers, how fucking hard is it to spoiler tag your shit and not complain about it? It's common courtesy.

 

[Owzers]

ugh the attitude that " if it's out let's spoil it"




That spoiler doesn't bother me though, but the next ten might Xo

 

[fredrancour]

Sorry to barge in. I am a comic scrub and I really wanted to read the Shellshocked series. I couldn't find a new copy for amazon since they are all 80 bucks.

Also, is Sandman getting a anniversary edition printed? It is another comic I really want to check out.

Neil gaiman's sandman? they've been doing new editions of them for a couple years. it never actually went out of print to my knowledge. it should be readily available everywhere.

 

[slightconfuse]

Is Gaiman doing Before Sandman with JH Williams?

 

[sazabirules]

Sorry to barge in. I am a comic scrub and I really wanted to read the Shellshocked series. I couldn't find a new copy for amazon since they are all 80 bucks.

Also, is Sandman getting a anniversary edition printed? It is another comic I really want to check out.

A Sandman slipcase edition came out in November that has all of the trades.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

This thread is so fucked when it comes to spoilers, how fucking hard is it to spoiler tag your shit and not complain about it? It's common courtesy.

Seriously. Fuck is wrong with people.

We need a Toby Ziegler in here and no one else will step up, I got a box of cigars and rubber ball and I will go FULL ZIEGLER ON THIS SHIT.

FOR NINETY. MINUTES. THERE WAS A COUP DETAT IN THIS THREAD.

 

[Anticitizen One]

See this is why I fucking hate the internet. I didn't realize All-New X-men came out today and the second I do I get bombarded with spoilers not only here but on other websites when I went to check if it was out. Damn people give people a second to read it before starting a debate on Beasts NEW LOOK

I wish Obama would just shut down the internet

 

[Spike Spiegel]

I went back and added spoiler tags to my post; my remarks were pretty vague I thought but one never can tell.

 

[Viewt]

A 24-hour grace period on spoilers would be nice. Maybe something to put into the OP.

All-New X-Men:

Spoiler

As for Beast's new look, while it's certainly better than Cat Beast, I'm not a fan of his fur color or his weird lack of nose. At least he's got five fingers, though. That's an improvement.

 

[Anticitizen One]

The problem isnt even gaf sometimes fucking Newsarama has huge spoiler pics and text on the front page literally the second the comic hits the stands. Its bullshit.

 

[frye]

Me and ElNarez play by BSS rules: if its out then it's fair game :colbert:

 

[Parallax]

A 24-hour grace period on spoilers would be nice. Maybe something to put into the OP.

All-New X-Men:

Spoiler

As for Beast's new look, while it's certainly better than Cat Beast, I'm not a fan of his fur color or his weird lack of nose. At least he's got five fingers, though. That's an improvement.

Fucking yes. The fingers thing is what soured me on cat beast. Even worse it didn't make sense

 

[B-Dubs]

God New Avengers is making me all excited again.