Dark Souls 2 Lighting changes/Downgrade

Decided to test this Wündertheory

PS3 Demo
finalbxzkxr.png




Retail normal
finala4pzm9.png


Lowered brightness
iR6NiuwIxtyKM.jpg


It isn't really doing anything at all because the light is too damn flat.

Now for a funzies one:


Retail crushed mids & shadows
iCO5vW6Z9bYaF.jpg



We're killing the range but also messing with the color a lot. Crushing is always bad, but it'd be the only way to reduce the range of the light with the way the current engine is using strictly TV features.

It has to be said that this isn't the whole story. The lighting in the original demo was fuller and appeared more realistic. Simply crushing your blacks to oblivion and beyond is not going to restore that atmosphere.
 
TentPole said:
I really don't appreciate the hostility, I am not trying to defend the game. Like I said I don't really care about proving anything. I am just suggesting that for those who have the game they might want to try it and see if they have a better experience but I might try to get a picture anyways.

I am trying to be helpful, not get into an argument that I am not invested in.
Click to expand...

Didnt mean to come off as hostile sorry, im a little bit passionate about souls and im still in denial about all of this :(, hopefully you can provide a picture to see if it matches the demo more.
 
Grief.exe said:
The more I look at them, the more I think they have been showing off the PC version up until Janurary. We have seen is confirmation from a Namco PR rep that all of that demo/trailer footage shown with the different lighting is from the PC version.

The writer does concede that it was an off-hand conversation, so don't take it as gospel http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=103960797&postcount=520

The previous demos/trailers being the PC version is literally the only plausible explanation at this point. Namco shows off a demo and trailer with specular highlights, high-res textures, normal mapping, silky frame rate (60FPS in the trailer), awesome lighting, darkness mechanic, and the console version ships with literally none of those graphical features and frame rate issues.

"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."
Click to expand...
So only the pc could handle the mage enemy at the entrance to the mirror knight?
 
TentPole said:
I really don't appreciate the hostility, I am not trying to defend the game. Like I said I don't really care about proving anything. I am just suggesting that for those who have the game they might want to try it and see if they have a better experience but I might try to get a picture anyways.

I am trying to be helpful, not get into an argument that I am not invested in.
Click to expand...

I tried it. The difference is negligible. I turned the brightness down in the game ALL THE WAY.
 
zephervack said:
Didnt mean to come off as hostile sorry, im a little bit passionate about souls and im still in denial about all of this :(, hopefully you can provide a picture to see if it matches the demo more.
Click to expand...

Except we already have plenty of retail footage and shots, he would just be, inadvertently, adding fuel to the fire.

Akainu said:
So only the pc could handle the mage enemy at the entrance to the mirror knight?
Click to expand...

What point are you trying to make? Other than an obvious Straw Man.
 
neoenigma said:
There are a lot of little differences like that. Obviously they're going to tweak the assets here and there but some places in the demo\retail look like they were design by completely different people. Take a look at this really shitty image comparison:



The pillars on the right are completely different. Why would they change that? Seems to me like the designer for the retail version was lazily attempting to emulate the area with less attention to detail. I doubt the pillars in the demo were crushing performance....



Oh. So we only need to turn down the brightness to get the same lighting from the demo?

Problem solved! /thread
Click to expand...

The geometry of the area is completely different. It's very disappointing to see the series retreat to looking like Demon's Souls. Maybe it'll look different in practice when the PC version releases but so far none of the retail screenshots come close to matching the atmosphere of Dark Souls 1.
 
Gbraga said:
Where is ENB?
Click to expand...

Neither ENB nor VaatiVidya did comment at all so far. Northernlion just does his Playthrough without any comments on the downgrade (that I heard, didn't watch all of it because omgspoilers).
 
Bufbaf said:
Neither ENB nor VaatiVidya did comment at all so far. Northernlion just does his Playthrough without any comments on the downgrade (that I heard, didn't watch all of it because omgspoilers).
Click to expand...

I don't mind they not commenting on it, it's just that ENB said he'd have something to say about this as soon as the embargo lifted :/
 
Kazaam said:
Without spoiling anything I managed to find the credits for Dark Souls 2 on youtube and tried to compare them to the ones from both Dark Souls and Demon Souls and the Dark Souls 2 team is pretty different, lots of major people from the previous teams missing , especially when looking at HODs.

I don't know if that says anything about Dark Souls 2, but makes me think of maybe some of these people working (again) together on a different project? A Miyazaki game with Jun ITO as Lead Programmer?
Click to expand...

Can we get an actual list to compare? We should make a new thread after we can see exactly how many veterans are missing.

Would clearly explain certain things.
 
Grief.exe said:
"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."
Click to expand...

Grief.EXE, I really hope that you are right about the PC version. However, this quote from the Japanese BBS makes me feel a lot of doubt. I will definitely wait for true screenshots/impressions of the PC version before double dipping.

海外の連中はフロムを知らないのか？
この会社は何時もこんな感じだ。トレーラー>デモ>製品なんだよ、そういう悪習のある会社なんだ。PC版もPS3と全く同じグラになると思う。なぜ ならコンソー ルで走らないモデリングをPCで金かけてやる会社なんて存在しないから。
Don't those foreigners know anything about From? It's always the same with this company. The same bad habit from Trailer -> Demo -> Release. The PC version will probably have exactly the same graphics, because no company would spend money on modeling for PC when it didn't work on consoles.
Click to expand...
 
swazzyswess said:
Maybe the reason people aren't clamoring to talk about it is because it isn't a big deal? LunaticGAF.
Click to expand...

Pretty much only hardcore fans will notice this, we are probably the 0.1% of the target audience.

Im also sure it was only the demo that looks that good, the rest of the game probably never looked as good.

It wouldnt be a big deal if they hadnt release their tech demo as a representation of the retail game, I wish they had said, this is our target for the future, how it could look if we had resources to devout this much attention to every room in the game.
 
koryuken said:
Grief.EXE, I really hope that you are right about the PC version. However, this quote from the Japanese BBS makes me feel a lot of doubt. I will definitely wait for true screenshots/impressions of the PC version before double dipping.
Click to expand...

He or she is completely right, but the PC version for this game in specific is supposed to be the base, so it's not about making things for PC when they didn't for consoles, but leaving it on PC even though they had to remove it from consoles.

But yeaaah, I don't think it'll happen.
 
So the picture didn't really turn out and the area around my character is all messed up but the backrground is accurate to the image I am getting. Most importantantly the need for the torches remains and really adds to the gameplay.

1AOOSWC.jpg
Click to expand...
 
Gbraga said:
He or she is completely right, but the PC version for this game in specific is supposed to be the base, so it's not about making things for PC when they didn't for consoles, but leaving it on PC even though they had to remove it from consoles.

But yeaaah, I don't think it'll happen.
Click to expand...

I'm hopeful (sort of), but mostly very skeptical. If we look at FROM's service record -- the utter shit PC port of DS (thx based Durante), the current PS360 port of DSII, why are we expecting this amazing graphical experience on PC for DS2? I hate to say this, but it is almost unrealistic to expect something good.

PS. Grief, I don't think that twitter exchange shows or proves anything. It basically says "thanks for the feedback".
 
Metroid-Squadron said:
What I want is developers to stop lying shamelessly to the consumers. It's that simple.

It's easy to blame all of this on Namco but it's not like FROM had nothing to do with the whole mess. It's they who designed the game with the pitch-black areas.
Click to expand...
That's the thing though. You don't know what stuff you're missing. It's not like the first game had a ton of scrutiny in development, and people loved the shit out of it. The second game, too, which had more scrutiny, actually had some stuff that was missing or not working as intended, too -- features that were actually advertised, come to think of it (though perhaps not depicted in quite so much detail).

Somebody said "ignorance is bliss" as a snide remark, but that actually does kind of apply here. It's not an uncommon sentiment expressed among those who've crossed over into game development that if you knew everything that went on, you might find games as a whole less appealing. And I'm sure changes like this are a part of it. The point in why the developer may be somewhat absolved of blame, is because disappointing changes do happen in development. But people should criticize the end-product alone. I mean, if what you aren't looking for is simply more Dark Souls, or don't find that as interesting, that is totally cool, and a valid criticism. But it should be taken separate from what the game might have been.
The whole brightening of them actually sounds like executive meddling based on feedback from focus groups.
Click to expand...
Yeah that may totally be the case and that would suck. Or they honestly felt they couldn't balance it correctly.
 
I don't understand why people are so shocked. I've been a fan of these games since Demon's Souls and even then it was obvious that From Software always shows initially stunning trailers and a few years later when the game releases there is a cut back on the visuals, much like the Japanese guy above said. It's been going on for years. Check this out.

Demon's Souls - Clearly an early trailer. Look at those lens flares that I never saw in the finished game.
Dark Souls Announcement - Again I see lightning that is nowhere in the finished game.

Now I'm not saying this is right but it's been going on for years and I always take their reveals with a huge grain of salt when it comes to the visuals. However still Games of the Generation.
 
You know, I'm still not completely convinced that the ambient light changes isn't a bug. I mean if it were they would probably let us know, but still. It just feels like a bug, and considering FROM's history, yeah. Remember that time when FROM added shadows to Demon's Souls with a patch?
 
DeBurgo said:
That's the thing though. You don't know what stuff you're missing. It's not like the first game had a ton of scrutiny in development, and people loved the shit out of it. The second game, too, which had more scrutiny, actually had some stuff that was missing or not working as intended, too -- features that were actually advertised, come to think of it (though perhaps not depicted in quite so much detail).

Somebody said "ignorance is bliss" as a snide remark, but that actually does kind of apply here. It's not an uncommon sentiment expressed among those who've crossed over into game development that if you knew everything that went on, you might find games as a whole less appealing. And I'm sure changes like this are a part of it. The point in why the developer may be somewhat absolved of blame, is because disappointing changes do happen in development. But people should criticize the end-product alone. I mean, if what you aren't looking for is simply more Dark Souls, or don't find that as interesting, that is totally cool, and a valid criticism. But it should be taken separate from what the game might have been.Yeah that may totally be the case and that would suck. Or they honestly felt they couldn't balance it correctly.
Click to expand...

Reviewer's audience are the consumers, not the developers, people who have been exposed to the pre-release materials and therefore have expectations about what the product is like. Reviews should account for any discrepancies between the promise and the reality so consumers can make informed decisions about their purchasing habits.

Ideally yes, people should completely ignore promotional materials, but that's not how it works in the real world except for a handful of people for which reviews are not even worth it anyways since they possess the same problems.
 
neoenigma said:
There are a lot of little differences like that. Obviously they're going to tweak the assets here and there but some places in the demo\retail look like they were design by completely different people. Take a look at this really shitty image comparison:



The pillars on the right are completely different. Why would they change that? Seems to me like the designer for the retail version was lazily attempting to emulate the area with less attention to detail. I doubt the pillars in the demo were crushing performance....
Click to expand...

20FPS on PS3 and terrible tearing on the 360. Having 6 cylinders per pillar is a lot more world polys than one large one.

Last gen can't die soon enough is my take away.
 
allangelsgone said:
I don't understand why people are so shocked. I've been a fan of these games since Demon's Souls and even then it was obvious that From Software always shows initially stunning trailers and a few years later when the game releases there is a cut back on the visuals, much like the Japanese guy above said. It's been going on for years. Check this out.

Demon's Souls - Clearly an early trailer. Look at those lens flares that I never saw in the finished game.
Dark Souls Announcement - Again I see lightning that is nowhere in the finished game.

Now I'm not saying this is right but it's been going on for years and I always take their reveals with a huge grain of salt when it comes to the visuals. However still Games of the Generation.
Click to expand...
Some extra post-processing added with After Effects is not the same as a completely different lighting engine.

Dark Souls 2 had the same extra post processing applied to at least one of the trailers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asgxfHZlQGk

However that was on top of the good looking version, not the real retail one. It's a major disparity.

Even if you dismiss the graphics in the trailers, the developer walkthroughs also used a much better looking version than what we got.
 
allangelsgone said:
I don't understand why people are so shocked. I've been a fan of these games since Demon's Souls and even then it was obvious that From Software always shows initially stunning trailers and a few years later when the game releases there is a cut back on the visuals, much like the Japanese guy above said. It's been going on for years. Check this out.

Demon's Souls - Clearly an early trailer. Look at those lens flares that I never saw in the finished game.
Dark Souls Announcement - Again I see lightning that is nowhere in the finished game.

Now I'm not saying this is right but it's been going on for years and I always take their reveals with a huge grain of salt when it comes to the visuals. However still Games of the Generation.
Click to expand...

That's true but in this case people actually played the game with that lighting and being told that was a ps3/xbox360 build. Then out of nowhere for release the light gets dropped. That's what all the fuzz is about.
 
Akainu said:
So only the pc could handle the mage enemy at the entrance to the mirror knight?
Click to expand...
That could be an issue of it being NG+ or not, no? Or that they switched things up.
It's not unthinkable that they'd make other sacrifices of aspects that were present in the demo to hit a performance target (and relative console parity?) given the framerate already dropping in points in the PS3 version.

Things might have been different if development was targeting a specific platform, or just the consoles (before porting it to PC) rather the other way around. The new engine being forward-focused (for next-gen and PCs) would probably be detrimental to 360/PS3 graphical quality relative to performance.
 
koryuken said:
I'm hopeful (sort of), but mostly very skeptical. If we look at FROM's service record -- the utter shit PC port of DS (thx based Durante), the current PS360 port of DSII, why are we expecting this amazing graphical experience on PC for DS2? I hate to say this, but it is almost unrealistic to expect something good.
Click to expand...

I don't expect a lot graphically, but I don't think that asking dark areas to be dark so the torch gains its purpose again is asking too much.

Unless of course From really does regret the torch mechanic and thinks the game is better off without it.
 
Mostly enjoying the game so far(not nearly as good as DS1)but damn this game is ugly. The texture are so blah compared to DS1. I'm really disliking the new engine a lot.
 
koryuken said:
I'm hopeful (sort of), but mostly very skeptical. If we look at FROM's service record -- the utter shit PC port of DS (thx based Durante), the current PS360 port of DSII, why are we expecting this amazing graphical experience on PC for DS2? I hate to say this, but it is almost unrealistic to expect something good.
Click to expand...
I think expecting something significantly better on PC would be naïve, but intent-wise, at least, they've expressed that they are cognizant of the poor job they did with the PC port of Dark Souls and are actively avoiding to do that with Dark Souls 2. If the PC version somehow suffers in spite of that, then they failed on an entirely different level from before.

The new engine that should favor the PC version, their intent, the greater time and effort being invested in the PC version, how good the demo looked previously, and the PC version being the lead platform are all factors that point to it being more likely that they will not mess up to the same degree. Only time will tell, however.
 
Cmerrill said:
Mostly enjoying the game so far(not nearly as good as DS1)but damn this game is ugly. The texture are so blah compared to DS1. I'm really disliking the new engine a lot.
Click to expand...

I definitely think this game isn't pretty, but it is certainly an improvement in every way from part 1 (graphically). Did you forget how plain/shitty Undead Burg looked? I think Forest of Giants looks better (albeit still ugly).

dark_souls_005.png


Necromanti said:
The new engine that should favor the PC version, their intent, the greater time and effort being invested in the PC version, how good the demo looked previously, and the PC version being the lead platform are all factors that point to it being more likely that they will not mess up to the same degree. Only time will tell, however.
Click to expand...

I would love for you to be right man. But you know the saying "Fool me once, shame on you."? We are now on the 3rd or the 4th time...
 
Cmerrill said:
Mostly enjoying the game so far(not nearly as good as DS1)but damn this game is ugly. The texture are so blah compared to DS1. I'm really disliking the new engine a lot.
Click to expand...
You'll probably end up loving it when it hits PC/ PS4. It's definitely an ugly game and CAN be uglier than DS1 in a lot of areas but I just think this engine is too much for last gen consoles.
I think I'm gonna skip PC version and just double dip on the PS4.
 
Metroid-Squadron said:
Reviewer's audience are the consumers, not the developers, people who have been exposed to the pre-release materials and therefore have expectations about what the product is like. Reviews should account for any discrepancies between the promise and the reality so consumers can make informed decisions about their purchasing habits.

Ideally yes, people should completely ignore promotional materials, but that's not how it works in the real world except for a handful of people for which reviews are not even worth it anyways since they possess the same problems.
Click to expand...
Is that the reviewer's audience? I'm sure there are plenty of people who don't pay attention to promotional materials that they may be writing for.
 
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