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Dawkins triumphs over creationists - No creationism allowed in UK science classrooms
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There was in my school. I studied Religious Education, Biology and Chemistry up until GCSE. (I dropped Physics in Year 10, iirc.) I distinctly remember studying creation myths in the RE class.
Nope, I just haven't taken a shower yet.
However, it was interesting that the UK seemed to be even more fundamentalist than US if there was a real danger that this bill addressed (I doubt it).
Lionheart1337
Member
Good.
You just made me smile on a hungover Sunday morning. For that, I officially declare you a Miracle.
I can see why you might argue this was a case of Dawkins being over-zealous. I don't really feel that way though. Even if there were barely any schools teaching creationism, and even though those schools were faith based schools, it's still nonsense. The scientist in Dawkins was probably just as fired up as the atheist in him.
Catholics and the Pope recognize evolution.
For the record, I agree. There should not be creationism taught in school. I don't think any origin of life concept should be taught in school since it's all based on extremely dubious/non-existent scientific research and aren't tied to evolution anyway. The whole of origin of life in a science class should be "We don't know".
It's just that this seemed to come out of the blue & Dawkins seems to champion marginal causes but write about grand ones. He really should go all out because that would make an interesting story. I expect him to next champion a bill that would ensure no one would have to buy a Bible.
If there is a real danger, I'm assuming those who are so pro-creationism can simply refuse to seek funding and go full private. It's set up differently here in the States.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
You'd be surprised how many people who aren't Catholics, don't know this.
FlyingTeacup
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people cherry-pick whatever they want to believe.
it'd be cherry picking to call out Catholics specifically, for doing that.
That's the Catholic Church dogma, not cherry picking.I'm not a believer or anything, but I don't think the Bible says anything about evolution.
...except just the complete opposite of it?
Dude Abides
Banned
If UK nutters are anything like US nutters, they'll try to insert "Intelligent Design" next.
Does it bother you that much that believers accept scientific theories?Why don't you embrace it?
zomgbbqftw
Banned
LOL! Keep out of UK schools please. I don't want a generation of scientifically ignorant kids spouting this kind of rubbish.
For schools to go private they need students and parents who are willing to pay upwards of £10-12k a year in fees so that the school can attract the best teachers etc... It's not an easy market and if a school's raison d'etre was to teach creationism they might get 10 students with parents willing to pay £10-12k in fees, but that is no where near enough to run a school. Hence the rush for these people to try and set up schools with public money. It is great news that their advances have been rebuffed by the DfE and kids are safe from this nonsense.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
That wouldn't be possible as they didn't just rule out creationism specifically but all non-scientific crap so that would include ID or any other made up crap that says humans and dinosaurs coexisted.
Because it's a fraud. I mean yea, I prefer that to them championing creationism, but it's still a perfect of case wanting to have your cake and eat it too.
FlyingTeacup
Member
maybe different matter, from what i heard, the best schools in london are private. A close friend, an american, who settled here, thought that the conservatives here pale in comparison to those in the states. He and his german wife are planning to move to germany, partly because they can't afford private schools and generally london is not a good place to raise children.
Maleficence
Member
If you believe something which later turns out to be proved false and you change your stance on it, you're a fraud?
You are so full of shit.
Dude Abides
Banned
They try to persuade people ID is scientific. Fortunately over here a federal court saw through it.
DragonKnight
Member
My parents and their denomination are fundamentalist. They think Adam and Eve really happened along with Noah's Ark and people living to be over 900 years old. You should have seen the look on a friend of mine's face when I told her that there are two very different creation accounts in the bible. I've been brought up for 21 years believing that the Bible had no contradictions and there is a huge glaring one between the first two chapters.
No, believing in evolution as a believer is great. But once you do that, hanging on to the second of half of your religion and pretending like the two are reconcilable (when they're not), is not being honest to yourself.
So the Catholic Church being like "oh we're so modern now! We believe in evolution!" is completely superficial and reeks more of being a PR thing where they want to stay relevant in the midst of a time and society where even religious people are going "hey, wait a minute....that sounds really dumb."
All we had when I did sciences about 12 years ago was the standard scientific teaching then in the final lesson it was a statement of -'and if you personnally choose to believe in some deity or other created the world or people then thats your choice but if you put that down in a exam I will find and slap you' from the teacher.
It was never a problem here I believe that this is just to put the rules in black and white.
It was never a problem here I believe that this is just to put the rules in black and white.
Maleficence
Member
Ok the first part is fine.
What do you mean by the second part? What second half of your religion? I didn't realise religion was half creationism.
Are you suggesting that if you have faith you can't also be completely scientific? I think a lot of scientists would take serious issue with that.
Insane Metal
Member
Yay science wins!
Came to post this. Dawkins can go eat a penis, this is a win for common sense and critical thinking.
FlyingTeacup
Member
unfortunately, that would make some people very very defensive and the opposite effect may be resulted. how you communicate the message to the public is key, not many academia are good in this sadly.
StealthGoblin
Banned
Darwin's Pit Bull played a significant role in this win. His documentary a few years ago actually brought the problem to a wider audience.
DragonKnight
Member
Seriously. Some of you guys need to sit in a baptist or pentacostal type church. They take everything in the Bible at face value. I once had an argument with a friend of mine that Noah's Ark and the story invalidates itself. The bible gives specific dimensions for the ark and there is no way that every land and flying creature could fit into those dimensions two by two. I told her that and you know what she said? God made it happen. You really can't win with fundamentalists. There is no point. Like they complete argee with some of the genocide that goes on the Old Testament simply becuase God said it was okay. It's insane.
Baptist and Pentecostals aren't big in the UK. 150,000 Baptists,1m Pentecostals (out of 70m).
Certainly wouldn't be many schools either.
There are a lot of things in the Bible that are contradictory to current knowledge or current morality. Those are often rejected by most religious people. Although this is for the best for everybody, picking only the parts you like about a book pretending to be the end-all book of truth as the basis for what you think is true is often considered hypocritical.
The same goes for most sciences. If you accept knowledge of physics, biology (anything that has to do with biology really, most notably medicine), geology, chemistry in the case of Islam, and possibly even mathematics (Bible does very much seem to claim pi = 3) then you hold truths contradicting those of the Bible. It is therefore that science and religion (technically only religions that dictate scientific facts in scripture, but that's all the major ones) are factually mutually incompatible. The intellectual hypocrisy worsens the more you need to work with that knowledge as a scientist. Moreover, if you reject certain truths found through science because the Bible says otherwise, the intellectually honest thing to do is to reject the scientific method, which makes you unsuitable to be a scientist.
The thing is, people are generally not troubled by contradictory beliefs and it is therefore that a huge amount of people still think that. I don't in general have a problem with people having some sort of faith, as long as they have the clarity of thought to realize that it's contradictory and people should not take them seriously for it.
StealthGoblin
Banned
Even if this sort of things occurs only in one UK school, the issue is present and needs to be sorted out. He demonstrated in his documentary that there are schools in the UK that mix creationism with science. Not only creationism by the way, other random things like salt water not mixing with fresh water - ever.
The headline could easily have read: "Science triumphs over creationism" instead they want to make this an atheism vs. Religion thing. Dawkins would be proud.
Dawkins is not the single champion for science in the UK. He is in fact not someone I would want representing me. His combative atheism is at this point more burdensome than helpful. Any news headline that gives him more credit than he deserves is only going to feed his already massive ego.
killer_clank
Member
The Adam and Eve story was mentioned in like primary school as a story, wasn't presented as anything other than that. In High School I don't think it was ever mentioned. We just learned about what religions believed, and that was it really.
Science rightfully only ever mentioned evolution. They even explained the difference between Scientific theory and a theory in common vernacular.
Science rightfully only ever mentioned evolution. They even explained the difference between Scientific theory and a theory in common vernacular.
It's growing...and places of worship are on the increase...just last year an entire street in London (In Lambeth iirc) had something like 12 Baptist and Pentecostals on it...crazy! I did a job in the area...I forgot what the locals dubbed it but they were pretty proud that a whole residential community was being taken over by these places of worship...
The segregation is weird too...so you had Africans in one place and South Americans in another...and Caribbean in another...
FlyingTeacup
Member
if you have read dawson's books, you would find them very reasonable and rather lack of his usual cloud of militant atheism, which are quite a contrast to his documentaries and youtube videos.
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