-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Dead or Alive 5: Last Round |OT| Bouncing on new systems.
- Thread starter Vazra
- Start date
The main reason I brought up DoA Ultimate, is because if a completely remade port of DoA2 is going to be disregarded (despite regular DoA2 legit being in the same actual generation), then "late gen DoA5 barebones PS4 port" is a super reach to count as a Gen 8 game, rather than Gen 7. I mean... there was still a year between DoA5's release and the launch of the PS4/XB1 and a further year and a half from then before it got ported.
Yea, it's crazy how quickly the series pivoted from Xbox to PlayStation.
No. I think DoA 3.1 would have been DoA3 a short while later. DoA3 was very clearly not ready at US launch.
There were actually multiple DOA titles per generation and I'd argue that DOA5LR doesn't really count as its own DOA title. It's just a fairly lazy port. So this generation still misses its own DOA.
I really hope DOA6 will be announced later this year and that it will release 2018. Sitting this generation completely out and leaving the 3D fighting stage entirely to Tekken 7 would be such a disappointment and frankly a mistake, seeing that DOA 5 actually was successful and definitely part of Koei Tecmo's overall financial success.
ShinMaruku
Member
You see more 2d games because they are easier to make and more importantly that's where most developers have their footing. 3d has always been the more rare endeavor and it has had to rely on 2 companies that loved arcades too much and spun far too many plates.
That said, I think they have a better engagement out of their fans than the other genres because there are less games and how they all play is unique.
That said, I think they have a better engagement out of their fans than the other genres because there are less games and how they all play is unique.
ShinMaruku
Member
Third dimension adds significant work, they also have to set up wall stuff and slope and gradient, they also have quite a bit more moves. Let's not say making any fighting game is easy but one has more work just because of the added dimension.
It's not really that clear cut tbh. A lot of what Dead or Alive has in regards to stages doesn't apply to other 3D fighters, and especially not to earlier 3D fighters. You had Virtua Fighter, Dead or Alive and Soul Edge/Calibur with ring outs, Tekken just scrolled infinitely and games like Bloody Roar and Fighting Vipers just had cage fights. The game tend to have more moves because animations are comparatively trivial. There was a PS1 fighting game called Fighter Maker where you could legit create your own character and moves yourself by moving the joints about... a 2D version of that game wouldn't be even remotely feasible.
The 2D fighters have become 2.5D primary because sprite-based fighting games were far more taxing to create. The extra dimension of actual 3D fighters doesn't provide a whole lot additional development challenge in reality because outside of Dead or Alive post-DoA2, Virtua Fighter 3 and Tekken 4 (and guess why those games walked it back) the majority of them don't deal with the 3rd dimension in a manner that anymore complex in regards to movement than crouching is on a 2D plane, and interactions with stage boundaries aren't really any more complicated that establishing the "corner" of a 2D fighter, of having transitions ala Killer Instinct 2.
ShinMaruku
Member
Never is it quite so clear cut. Another thing that makes 2d games more widespread is just the amount of folks working on them from all these companies, you will never see any developer dead making a 3d game, they probably would not see the expense worth it
and nothing is wrong with that.
I would rather them make what they are comfortable with. Because some of the senran spin offs have be terrible and I feel that time would have been better spent with spin offs where they have experience.
I am shocked more games don't take on how DOA does their stages, slopes and different stages add so much to the game.
Kinda like how I feel VF is it's limbo because Sega ain't gonna foot that bill if they can get something out of it for cheaper because VF never had a massive success outside of Japan.
I would rather them make what they are comfortable with. Because some of the senran spin offs have be terrible and I feel that time would have been better spent with spin offs where they have experience.
I am shocked more games don't take on how DOA does their stages, slopes and different stages add so much to the game.
I agree that you see more 2D fighters because more of the developers that create them have expertise and history making them as opposed to 3D Fighters. I wouldn't agree that it's a matter of difficulty though. Team Ninja didn't make Dead or Alive because they had a lot of expertise making such games. They made it because Virtua Fighter was basically the biggest thing there was in Japan at the time. Most others that got into the ring, did so when Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat ruled the world. When Tekken became the big dog during the PS1 era, we were flooded with 3D fighters (like Bloody Roar for example).
Virtua Fighter has been parked because honestly Sega's parked basically every classic Japanese IP they have barring Sonic and Phantasy Star Online. It's not as though they're more willing to create a new Eternal Champions instead. In some ways I feel that Virtua Fighter found itself somewhat in a corner after Virtua Fighter 4. The game was always a showpiece for their latest cutting edge hardware, and they no longer had any. In gameplay terms it pretty much reached its endgame also, it had become more simplistic after experimenting with more complex stage layouts and interactivity in VF3. VF5 whilst being a notable step up graphically does honestly play a lot like just a refined version of VF4, and I would imagine a potential VF6 would play very similar to VF5.
The reason more fighters don't approach stage interactivity like Dead or Alive does, is because the FGC in general likes to get all scientific with their tech, and historically have not been very accepting of variables that makes tactics less reproducible. So both Virtua Fighter 3 and Tekken 4's additions of undulations and more complex geometry were seen as undesirable by the playerbase, and so much like how SFIV basically sequels SFII as though SFIII never happened, VF4 effectively sequels VF2 and Tekken 5 sequels Tekken 3. The stage interactivity was seen as a failed experiment that neither series would return to. Dead or Alive on the other hand was always designed to appeal to a more casual audience, and like games such as Smash Bros and Powerstone, was heavily marketed using its stages as a selling point. As far back as the Danger Zone in DoA1, the stages elements have always been front and center in selling DoA, almost as much as the characters themselves. For 2D fighters there's only really Injustice that's made much of an effort to do something similar.
ShinMaruku
Member
The VF issue is why I don't blame them for not making a new one, the ip has value outside of it. That said Vanessa best be in DOA6. Sass up Zack is all I need now.
Outside of the arcades VF was generally in the wrong place automatically by being tied to Sega systems lol. It started off with stronger recognition than Tekken had (which initially had to battle against Toshiden to rep its platform), and if it had either been on PlayStation then or the Saturn had performed like the Genesis, it probably would have done really well outside of Japan. Nothing was saving any of Sega's flagship arcade IPs on console versus PlayStation though... not Daytona vs Ridge Racer, not Virtua Fighter vs Tekken, not Virtua Cop vs Time Crisis, nothing. Sega basically had Namco's number in the arcade, but everything suffered as a result of their home console performance.
Virtua FIghter 4 was the series' first real opportunity to box with Tekken directly, and it did so pretty well against Tekken 4. Virtua Fighter 5 however is so aesthetically displeasing that it was never gonna maintain mainstream presence... especially not after Tekken 5 got Tekken is T3-era cool back.
As for future DoA games... there's very little I can think of that I'd actually want added at this point. I don't really have much of an imagination really, lol. Most of what I'd want to change from DoA5 would be in regards to presentation, and stages being more on par with DoA4's (or even better would be great).I'd also like the story to give the ninjas less focus at this point in favour of other characters.
Virtua FIghter 4 was the series' first real opportunity to box with Tekken directly, and it did so pretty well against Tekken 4. Virtua Fighter 5 however is so aesthetically displeasing that it was never gonna maintain mainstream presence... especially not after Tekken 5 got Tekken is T3-era cool back.
As for future DoA games... there's very little I can think of that I'd actually want added at this point. I don't really have much of an imagination really, lol. Most of what I'd want to change from DoA5 would be in regards to presentation, and stages being more on par with DoA4's (or even better would be great).I'd also like the story to give the ninjas less focus at this point in favour of other characters.
Master Milk
Member
i want the polish, care, and production values of the previous entries back . . .
Yea, this is basically what I meant by presentation I guess.
And bring back the good music. I don't know how DoA5 ended up with such an instantly forgettable soundtrack, considering every previous entries was awesome.
YoshiStrife
Member
Definitely some all-around presentation improvements. Goes without saying the stages are pretty poor compared to previous games. No shapeshifting at all in the sand, whereas there was tons of it in Snow in DOA3. I imagine characters will be near DOAX3 level, so I think we'll be good there. Not expecting exactly on par with X3 due to the game itself needing to run smoothly, but it's Team Ninja, so they gonna look good either way.
Music I agree with. And in terms of costumes, just more that actually suit each character, so more ninja style for Kasumi, fighting gear for Mila, wrestling stuff for Tina, crazy shit for Zack. But defo more casual stuff in general for everyone.
In terms of game mechanics, I'm happy with how things are tbh, but not sure I'd know how to improve on the current setup really. Will leave that for others to think up lol.
Erm, maybe a Welsh character for a change? Ha, fat chance, I know
Music I agree with. And in terms of costumes, just more that actually suit each character, so more ninja style for Kasumi, fighting gear for Mila, wrestling stuff for Tina, crazy shit for Zack. But defo more casual stuff in general for everyone.
In terms of game mechanics, I'm happy with how things are tbh, but not sure I'd know how to improve on the current setup really. Will leave that for others to think up lol.
Erm, maybe a Welsh character for a change? Ha, fat chance, I know
ShinMaruku
Member
Andy House is in the game. There is your Welshman.
YoshiStrife
Member
Eolz
Member
My big DOA6 wishlist:
- better netcode
- VF characters coming back
- mostly the same DLC policy: same individual prices, lower pack and season pack prices, free stages
- Finally finish the Donovan storyline. Let Kasumi kill him, Rig is good enough to take his place
- keep at least the same amount of single player content as DOA5, which is still great
- add back arcade endings like in previous DOA games
- different layout for the story mode (continuous chronology instead of jumping back and forth)
- slight customization: nothing stupid/crazy like VF/Tekken (where it looks like a big mess in the end, but more hair options, allow recolours to be done by players instead of DLC, and some basic accessories like now (glasses/hats/etc). Let TN in control of the costume sets.
- at least 2 new characters at launch: a new bad guy (there's basically just Rig and Raidou right now) and a new mature woman (like Christie/Rachel). Popular archetypes will be DLC anyway (like Marie/Nyo/etc before).
- better stages, not only in terms of LD but also look. 5 was a disappointment on both sides there. Bring back snow levels, multi tiered levels, etc.
- keep the same character design (please don't change it), just improve a bit the models.
Also, bring back Ayane's DOA3 Hajinmon sect leader costume please. Why did they have to remove it ;_;
- better netcode
- VF characters coming back
- mostly the same DLC policy: same individual prices, lower pack and season pack prices, free stages
- Finally finish the Donovan storyline. Let Kasumi kill him, Rig is good enough to take his place
- keep at least the same amount of single player content as DOA5, which is still great
- add back arcade endings like in previous DOA games
- different layout for the story mode (continuous chronology instead of jumping back and forth)
- slight customization: nothing stupid/crazy like VF/Tekken (where it looks like a big mess in the end, but more hair options, allow recolours to be done by players instead of DLC, and some basic accessories like now (glasses/hats/etc). Let TN in control of the costume sets.
- at least 2 new characters at launch: a new bad guy (there's basically just Rig and Raidou right now) and a new mature woman (like Christie/Rachel). Popular archetypes will be DLC anyway (like Marie/Nyo/etc before).
- better stages, not only in terms of LD but also look. 5 was a disappointment on both sides there. Bring back snow levels, multi tiered levels, etc.
- keep the same character design (please don't change it), just improve a bit the models.
Also, bring back Ayane's DOA3 Hajinmon sect leader costume please. Why did they have to remove it ;_;
lucebuce12
Member
My DoA6 wishlist:
dassit
- Better netcode
- Rachel coming back
- Marie Rose NOT coming back
dassit
Pools for LR at Summer Jam XI are running today. Switched to casuals for some reason at the moment, though.
EDIT: Or not? Whatever, it's going.
https://www.twitch.tv/funkyp
EDIT: Or not? Whatever, it's going.
https://www.twitch.tv/funkyp
ShinMaruku
Member
I think Ayane blew up the Hajinmon sect. Mainly because she and her mum are on better terms and technically she should lead the clan and not her bum ass siblings/cousins
Raidou was the original heir and Ayane is part of both branches since she's his daughter and is Ayame's daughter
Alright, lemme do a DOA6 wishlist too:
- Lots of single player content as usual.
- Beautiful console optimized graphics. Not a downgraded, low resolution port from PC like Tekken 7.
- Return to rock music instead of cringey rap.
- Beautiful and vibrant stages.
- A great story mode like Injustice 2.
- Several costumes to unlock for each character in the game. For the guys too.
- Turned down fanservice and DLC outselling at least in the beginning.
- At least two new characters. Really new characters. No clones and not another loli.
- Virtua Fighter characters can stay. They get new animations and voice acting though.
- Honoka and Naotora nowhere in sight. Alpha can go too.
- A cool spectator mode including an in-depth photomode.
- No silly Tekken style customization but more options like in DOA5LR from the start.
- Lots of single player content as usual.
- Beautiful console optimized graphics. Not a downgraded, low resolution port from PC like Tekken 7.
- Return to rock music instead of cringey rap.
- Beautiful and vibrant stages.
- A great story mode like Injustice 2.
- Several costumes to unlock for each character in the game. For the guys too.
- Turned down fanservice and DLC outselling at least in the beginning.
- At least two new characters. Really new characters. No clones and not another loli.
- Virtua Fighter characters can stay. They get new animations and voice acting though.
- Honoka and Naotora nowhere in sight. Alpha can go too.
- A cool spectator mode including an in-depth photomode.
- No silly Tekken style customization but more options like in DOA5LR from the start.
I don't know whose idea it was to set the English voices for this tournament, but it annoys me. There are good fighting game dubs, and then there are ones like DoA5's, which is as weak as the one for Xrd -SIGN- (as with it, a handful of passable voices, but overall poor direction otherwise).
YoshiStrife
Member
haha, I have settled with English in 5, though I can happily jump between both.
A little thing, but I hope we can rewind replays in 6. That's always a pain in the arse.
Amusing to read people wishing Honoka and Marie to be cut. I'd love to do a poll in here of our fave/worst characters. Naotora definitely sucks tho. Fucking annoying.
I think Marie Rose is actually fine and a fitting and unique addition to the character roster, but Honoka is just so lazy and redundant. I pray to God they don't add yet another loli.
Little more than wishful thinking for people wanting Marie Rose or Honoka cut anyway, though (I can't muster even a small fraction of the rage burning with a thousand suns that they inspire in most who don't like them, even for anyone I actually do dislike in the cast). Though I prefer Marie as someone who brings something new to the series, yet I would agree still fits, I take no issue with Honoka either since there was still a place for a Dural/Mokujin equivalent. Realistically, Alpha, Ein, and Leon will probably be dropped (though fan demand was apparently what led the third of those being made available again), along with guest characters like Naotora and Mai.
I wouldn't really count on a new mature character like Christie or Rachel, given the lack of popularity that those two have as it is. At the same time though, I have my doubts that there will be a slew of new additions just like Marie or Honoka, never mind anyone younger (something like that would only bring back an old problem already resolved, and I'm certain that neither TN nor consumers have any interest in humoring that market-based "Age: N/A" crap again).
And seriously, they're not going to tone down the fanservice or scale back on DLC. The base has pretty much spoken on both of those issues, with an attempt at the former sinking like a lead balloon the first time they tried it with 5.
I wouldn't really count on a new mature character like Christie or Rachel, given the lack of popularity that those two have as it is. At the same time though, I have my doubts that there will be a slew of new additions just like Marie or Honoka, never mind anyone younger (something like that would only bring back an old problem already resolved, and I'm certain that neither TN nor consumers have any interest in humoring that market-based "Age: N/A" crap again).
And seriously, they're not going to tone down the fanservice or scale back on DLC. The base has pretty much spoken on both of those issues, with an attempt at the former sinking like a lead balloon the first time they tried it with 5.
Eolz
Member
Good shout for the replays. Forgot how bad the current system is.
We definitely need to do a poll, but more a ranking rather than "what is your favourite one" which could make it a bit inequal.
Yeah, my "mature" character wish was more due that they put more risky/unpopular characters in new free additions. Obviously would never be the case for a paid DLC character.
The chances of that happening is pretty slim.
ShinMaruku
Member
I find Honoka's stance change system and unique mechanics pretty good. She's a faster version of her dad with a few extra moves. Marie is actually a high skill character with a good amount of tools, she can expose quite a bit of people. She' basically a less bullshit Lei Fang, but man it would not be DOA without Lei Fang Buillshit.
Adding her to the base roster would be the best chance for a new mature character, yeah. Otherwise, the closest we'd get for a DLC character would probably be another addition like Nyotengu who, while still more mature than Marie or Honoka, doesn't have much of an overlap in appeal with characters like Christie or Rachel.
Damn right.
Keeping things reasonable, what I want is pretty basic.
-Standard story and other SP modes (although it'd be nice if Survival was actually round based again.)
-Lots of costumes on the disc (though I don't mind there also bring DLC. I expect an F2P option at launch even.)
-Good net code.
-New female characters that aren't just lolis.
-New, more unique character models. I really hope they don't just recycle the DOA5 models and add more polygons or w/e. They've been nice, but they're all so obviously built from the same generic mold. I want brand new, unique models for every girl.
They're not gonna take out Marie or Honoka. I don't even particularly want them to either. I mean, I wouldn't shed a tear to see either dropped, but it's clear they won't be. I just don't want them to keep going further down the loli rabbit hole.
They're never gonna do an SP mode as good as IJ2 for the same reasons most other fighters won't either: NR is working from an excellent base of source material (DC Comics) and actually puts the effort in to do the brand justice.
DOA is silly and fun. Just focus on that.
-Standard story and other SP modes (although it'd be nice if Survival was actually round based again.)
-Lots of costumes on the disc (though I don't mind there also bring DLC. I expect an F2P option at launch even.)
-Good net code.
-New female characters that aren't just lolis.
-New, more unique character models. I really hope they don't just recycle the DOA5 models and add more polygons or w/e. They've been nice, but they're all so obviously built from the same generic mold. I want brand new, unique models for every girl.
They're not gonna take out Marie or Honoka. I don't even particularly want them to either. I mean, I wouldn't shed a tear to see either dropped, but it's clear they won't be. I just don't want them to keep going further down the loli rabbit hole.
They're never gonna do an SP mode as good as IJ2 for the same reasons most other fighters won't either: NR is working from an excellent base of source material (DC Comics) and actually puts the effort in to do the brand justice.
DOA is silly and fun. Just focus on that.
- Keep or bump DoA5LR's single-player and training options
- Mai and a VF rep would be nice, especially if they're in the story mode (possibily as part of a playable tag team, making the VF guests lose in the DoA5 story was a bit of a raw deal)
- More/better male reps in the game, I liked how the gender split in the original DoA5 was pretty even... maybe introduce some rivalry between male characters (maybe some antagonist for Hayate to help make him less boring), it seems to get the attention of many a fangirl
- Expand the amount of team-specific tag-team moves
- Absolute parity in the amount of (DLC) outfits for everyone
- Mai and a VF rep would be nice, especially if they're in the story mode (possibily as part of a playable tag team, making the VF guests lose in the DoA5 story was a bit of a raw deal)
- More/better male reps in the game, I liked how the gender split in the original DoA5 was pretty even... maybe introduce some rivalry between male characters (maybe some antagonist for Hayate to help make him less boring), it seems to get the attention of many a fangirl
- Expand the amount of team-specific tag-team moves
- Absolute parity in the amount of (DLC) outfits for everyone
Now that I think about it, I wonder which franchise has sold more between VF or DOA? VF2 on Saturn sold over 2 million, while I don't see any estimations for a DOA selling over 1 million until 3. Possible DOA has caught up now.
YoshiStrife
Member
Am free this weekend, so who is game for a lobby? Where everyone at?
Kuksune
Member
Going on a little vacation tomorrow so i can't.
Eolz
Member
I can try, but I have no idea since Gamescom is next week and I'm likely doing some overtime :/
YoshiStrife
Member
Ah well, I do have some other games to occupy myself with. Sad we didn't get to play with any of the newbies that came in here in the last couple of weeks.
lucebuce12
Member
I'd play but I live in Pakistan and I don't want to force the pain of that connection, especially with this netcode.
YoshiStrife
Member
I always think it's worth trying. Then if it does suck, we know not to do it again
lucebuce12
Member
Trust me lol, it's not playable even with games like Killer Instinct or IJ2, it's not gonna be playable here.
YoshiStrife
Member
D:
please be good netcode in DOA6...
please be good netcode in DOA6...