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Democracy 3 |OT| - In case you wanted your political ideals crushed virtually as well

XiaNaphryz

LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
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Official trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjNTeqvd_qk&hd=1

Platform: PC/Mac/Linux
Genre: Government Simulation
Developer: Positech Games
Price: $24.99 US
Release Date: October 14, 2013
Supported Languages: English

Overview

Taken from the official site:

Have you ever wanted to be president? Or prime-minister? Convinced you could do a better job of running the country? Let's face it, you could hardly do a worse job than our current political leaders.

Crime, Unemployment, National Debt, Terrorism, Climate Change...Have you got the answers to the problems that face western industrialized nations? Here is your chance to find out.

Democracy 3 simulates the motivations, loyalties and desires of everyone in the country. A custom-designed neural network is used to model individual voters, each which varying memberships of voting groups, political parties and pressure groups. Each voters income is modelled, along with their levels of complacency and cynicism. This is the most sophisticated political strategy game ever created.

Despite being vastly detailed under-the-hood, Democracy 3 has a unique user interface that makes visualising the connections between laws, policies, voters and situations easy. A simple iconic-based view of your countries issues allows you to 'drill-down' through all the relationships between policies and voters to quickly analyse the impacts of your decisions. Your trade policy may affect GDP, which will affect unemployment, which will effect poverty, and thus crime, leading to a change in tourism, which affects GDP.

Links

Democracy 3 Site: http://www.positech.co.uk/democracy3/
Positech Site: http://www.positech.co.uk
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/democracygame
Game manual: http://cdn3.steampowered.com/Manuals/245470/D3Manual.pdf?t=1381770238

System Requirements

Operating System: Windows XP (PC)
Processor: 2.0 GHz
Memory: 1 GB minimum, 4 GB recommended
Hard Disk Space: 500 MB Free
Video: 256 MB card
Sound: DirectX 9.0c-compatible sound card
DirectX: version 9.0c

Purchase options

Available on Steam: http://store.steampowered.com/app/245470

You can also purchase a DRM free copy at the Positech Games website, which also gets you a Steam key! http://www.positech.co.uk/democracy3/register.php

Screenshots:

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Preview impressions:

Indie Statik:

The UI is fairly intuitive once you get used to it. One complaint is that it’s a little confusing to new players, but the shocking revelation that you can alter existing legislation from corresponding buttons on the main screen makes everything much, much smoother going forward. Menus will show you information ranging from current GDP versus spending, popularity polls and at-will census groups on the current state of the government, as well as risk assessment about the various extremist organizations gunning for your junk. It’s politico’s dream come true, and a good barometer for how fucked you are at any given moment. And you will be fucked.

I am a political theorist. It says so on my degree (important: I did more drugs in the woods than work on that degree). As such, it would be remiss of me not to wholeheartedly recommend Democracy 3 as Positech has made, I believe, one of the fullest real-world governance simulation games ever conceived. It’s engaging, it’s self-aware, and, at times, it’s funnier than anyone might have expected, bringing a gorgeous interface together with some enlightening statistical data on how different aspects of a country can affect the others. Just keep in mind that, like my friend before you, it will crush the life out of your dreams for a Liberal Eden. With bloody, poop-covered hands.

Rock Paper Shotgun:

The power of Democracy 3 is that it’ll rip your soul right out of you, but without convincing you that your beliefs are actually wrong. What it will do is make you into a liar. Well, a politician, but same difference, right?

All snark aside, Democracy 3 is very much a game of its time. It evokes the panic and precariousness of the financial crisis in Britain (the US and other nations will be added later), the desperate sense that whoever winds up in Downing Street to try and fix it is very much inheriting a poison chalice. This isn’t politics as jolly hockey sticks, it’s politics as a fight against rapid entropy. It’s highly stressful, in all the right ways.

On a visual and interface front, I’m impressed by how it’s managed to prevent its numbers – for all it really is is numbers, and their meanings – from becoming overwhelming, and it doesn’t even need to do the one-note bobblehead gag of sometime, far shallower rival The Political Machine, in order to do this. It feels clean and shiny, a little bit Maxis in its interface. Things happen, in a pleasingly visual and sometimes almost tactile way, when I click on or hover over screen elements, rather than it being a matter of staggering through dry text boxes.

What I’m saying is that it hangs together very well: deep and detailed, researched and pitiless, but loaded with enough consequence and meaning to lift it into something much more than a numbers game. It’s very much a roleplaying game, as much about the curse of power as the strategic practicalities of running a vast business. I’m looking forwards to going back in and playing as The Nasty Party, seeing what happens if I privatise everything, ramp up the wealthiest’s wealth and destroy the welfare state. If it turns out I have an easy ride that way, I suspect I’ll reverse my opinions to date on the game, of course.

PC Gamer:

The inevitable question with a game like Democracy is that of inherent bias – of Harris seeding his own worldview throughout the game. “Hopefully there’s no inherent bias. I know that’s ridiculous,” he says. “When I playtest it, [I do] it with loads of philosophies. Communist, UKIP, Libertarian – I check that I don’t feel like the odds are stacked against me. I’m not so bothered if that strategy ultimately fails or seems a bit easier. If, when I’m in that mindset, I think ‘this is ridiculous, why is that happening?,’ then I would tweak that. I really haven’t had any feedback from people saying it’s obviously biased.”

Later in the conversation, the subject of electioneering comes up – cheap shots at Prime Minister’s Questions, queuing for sausage rolls outside Greggs to score voter points, kissing babies. Harris explains that elections in Democracy 3 are like “elections in paradise. Everyone in the game is a rational actor. They’re always thinking, ‘Do I agree with this?’ They never think this politician’s really funny or he’s a bit shifty.”

“You’re such an economist,” I tell him. He laughs: “I’ve provided a worldview where political debate and argument wins.” It’s a political game without a Boris Johnson mode. There’s no ‘go down well with viewers as a host on Have I Got News For You’ option. This, I think, is Harris’s inherent bias. He dislikes the manipulative, media-focused aspects of politics, and therefore his games model a world in which people make rational choices based on sensible criteria. It’s a weakness when it comes to making the game seem realistic on a daily news level, but it doesn’t prevent the underlying systems from providing a strong model for the relationships between policies and outcomes.

A nod to Democracy’s strength is the fact the US Department of Defense was interested in using the software. “They wanted some kind of software to model US involvement in the Middle East, specifically Iraq and Afghanistan, to see how they could model non-violent resolutions to problems. If we invest money in a better water supply for this part of Iraq, is that going to reduce terrorist activity or threats?” It’s also used in schools and as part of management training. The Yemeni government previously asked for the software to be translated into Arabic.

Reviews
To be added as they come in.

Media
Arumba Let's Play (known for his Crusader Kings 2 and Europa Universalis IV videos):
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLH-huzMEgGWC3va2VGcE0vJUp09KXlKei
 
I still haven't gotten around to buying the full version of Democracy 2 yet, should I just skip that and wait for this to come out instead?
 

XiaNaphryz

LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
I still haven't gotten around to buying the full version of Democracy 2 yet, should I just skip that and wait for this to come out instead?

It's out now actually.

I haven't played the new one yet, but they supposedly rewrote 95% of the code base and, from the looks of it, overhauled the interface.
 

Miletius

Member
I'm really interested in this game but I probably won't spend 25 bucks on it. To me, something like this is more interesting than monarchy simulators because it tries to approximate the anarchy that is our modern political systems.

I read the part about rational actors, I wonder if or how they deal with corruption. Would be interesting if being in a banana republic vs being in a more mature democracy would have you have to drastically alter your leadership style.
 

elfinke

Member
I think iPad version would fit this game nicely!

This looks fucking great, thanks for bringing it to my attention. The RPS preview is really compelling, too.

And yeah, a mobile version, holy shit, that would be the end of my productivity in meetings/life.
 

XiaNaphryz

LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
This looks fucking great, thanks for bringing it to my attention. The RPS preview is really compelling, too.

And yeah, a mobile version, holy shit, that would be the end of my productivity in meetings/life.

I guess it would come down to if Apple approves something like this, don't they tend to avoid potentially controversial topics?
 

SoCoRoBo

Member
I'm really interested in this game but I probably won't spend 25 bucks on it. To me, something like this is more interesting than monarchy simulators because it tries to approximate the anarchy that is our modern political systems.

I read the part about rational actors, I wonder if or how they deal with corruption. Would be interesting if being in a banana republic vs being in a more mature democracy would have you have to drastically alter your leadership style.

From playing so far, I haven't come across if/how corruption modelled in. Just from playing as the UK/USA the dynamics of what you can do are completely different. There's a greater leeway to pursue gov't driven policy in the UK, found it much much easier to maintain a budget surplus there.

It's really interesting how the structural limitation are somewhat self-reinforcing and change your playstyle. Haven't done Australia yet, but I'd be really interested to see how stuff like compulsory voting changes the game (though the article was right, voters seem a bit smarter than what they are in reality).

I'd also be really interested to know how turnout is modelled. If it's like in real life with disproportionate turnout amongst high-income voters, it'd be cool to see if people adopted optimal strategies of skewing their responsiveness towards middle and high income voters, just like in real life.
 

XiaNaphryz

LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
From playing so far, I haven't come across if/how corruption modelled in. Just from playing as the UK/USA the dynamics of what you can do are completely different. There's a greater leeway to pursue gov't driven policy in the UK, found it much much easier to maintain a budget surplus there.

It's really interesting how the structural limitation are somewhat self-reinforcing and change your playstyle. Haven't done Australia yet, but I'd be really interested to see how stuff like compulsory voting changes the game (though the article was right, voters seem a bit smarter than what they are in reality).

I'd also be really interested to know how turnout is modelled. If it's like in real life with disproportionate turnout amongst high-income voters, it'd be cool to see if people adopted optimal strategies of skewing their responsiveness towards middle and high income voters, just like in real life.

From what I understand there isn't any real corruption model in the game. Perhaps a mod or something can put it in?

Also, I've read impressions that the game may be a bit easy with default difficulty sliders, so people may need to adjust those if you're not finding it a challenge to get reelected.
 
EmptySpace wants to know if there are any games like this? what is this genre specifically called? kinda like theme hospital and game dev tycoon...but rollercoaster tycoon and some other games are too complicated.
 

Miletius

Member
From playing so far, I haven't come across if/how corruption modelled in. Just from playing as the UK/USA the dynamics of what you can do are completely different. There's a greater leeway to pursue gov't driven policy in the UK, found it much much easier to maintain a budget surplus there.

It's really interesting how the structural limitation are somewhat self-reinforcing and change your playstyle. Haven't done Australia yet, but I'd be really interested to see how stuff like compulsory voting changes the game (though the article was right, voters seem a bit smarter than what they are in reality).

I'd also be really interested to know how turnout is modelled. If it's like in real life with disproportionate turnout amongst high-income voters, it'd be cool to see if people adopted optimal strategies of skewing their responsiveness towards middle and high income voters, just like in real life.

Hmmm interesting. What countries are available to play with (don't list if it's too many). I wonder if there are 3rd world style democracies available for play as well as the major powers.
 

CzarTim

Member
I have put 7 hours into this, and wanted to give my feedback:

You really play more of a democratically-elected dictator whose only real limitation is "Political Capital" -- a currency used to enact policy change. For example, raising taxes costs a great deal of capital, while lowering it cost less. Capital refreshes each turn. The large problem with this system lies in the fact that the capital cost does not scale with the amount you change a policy. Raising taxes 1% cost the same as raising it 70%. This makes the process seem trivial.

In addition, because there is no Congress or Parliament to negotiate with, there is little strategy involved. The core gameplay revolves around moving sliders around and watching numbers change. In real life, an attempt to introduce universal healthcare would involve a bill which included both the funding for health services and accompanying taxes to pay for it. Here, the process would take several turns since I would need to use up my political capital separately on each individual part of the process.

The result is a remarkably shallow experience. No trying to get the votes for a bill to pass, no negotiation, no managing the media. Even the sliders can sometimes feel incomplete -- you can't individually control the income tax for different income levels. The core of the experience is seeing how the programmer thinks the nation would react to different numbers. I can't help feel there could be more to it.
 

remnant

Banned
I have put 7 hours into this, and wanted to give my feedback:

You really play more of a democratically-elected dictator whose only real limitation is "Political Capital" -- a currency used to enact policy change. For example, raising taxes costs a great deal of capital, while lowering it cost less. Capital refreshes each turn. The large problem with this system lies in the fact that the capital cost does not scale with the amount you change a policy. Raising taxes 1% cost the same as raising it 70%. This makes the process seem trivial.

In addition, because there is no Congress or Parliament to negotiate with, there is little strategy involved. The core gameplay revolves around moving sliders around and watching numbers change. In real life, an attempt to introduce universal healthcare would involve a bill which included both the funding for health services and accompanying taxes to pay for it. Here, the process would take several turns since I would need to use up my political capital separately on each individual part of the process.

The result is a remarkably shallow experience. No trying to get the votes for a bill to pass, no negotiation, no managing the media. Even the sliders can sometimes feel incomplete -- you can't individually control the income tax for different income levels. The core of the experience is seeing how the programmer thinks the nation would react to different numbers. I can't help feel there could be more to it.

Are you sure you didn't play democray 2 by mistakke? becuase that is, word for word every issue and problem in democracy 2.

Guess I can wait for a steam sale
 

CzarTim

Member
Are you sure you didn't play democray 2 by mistakke? becuase that is, word for word every issue and problem in democracy 2.

Guess I can wait for a steam sale

I've only played the first Democracy, and can't really tell much of a difference between that game and this one.
 
can players change the country into a different type of one? obviously, the citizens will rage, but will it go okay after a while? EmptySpace wants to turn usa into an atheist-scientific country.
 

CzarTim

Member
Any gaffers play this and have a review they'd like to give? Thinking of picking it up
I have put 7 hours into this, and wanted to give my feedback:

You really play more of a democratically-elected dictator whose only real limitation is "Political Capital" -- a currency used to enact policy change. For example, raising taxes costs a great deal of capital, while lowering it cost less. Capital refreshes each turn. The large problem with this system lies in the fact that the capital cost does not scale with the amount you change a policy. Raising taxes 1% cost the same as raising it 70%. This makes the process seem trivial.

In addition, because there is no Congress or Parliament to negotiate with, there is little strategy involved. The core gameplay revolves around moving sliders around and watching numbers change. In real life, an attempt to introduce universal healthcare would involve a bill which included both the funding for health services and accompanying taxes to pay for it. Here, the process would take several turns since I would need to use up my political capital separately on each individual part of the process.

The result is a remarkably shallow experience. No trying to get the votes for a bill to pass, no negotiation, no managing the media. Even the sliders can sometimes feel incomplete -- you can't individually control the income tax for different income levels. The core of the experience is seeing how the programmer thinks the nation would react to different numbers. I can't help feel there could be more to it.


On Twitter, the dev said, "Apparently Democracy 3 is 'shallow'. I'd love to watch that person play angry birds..." to which I'd say Angry Birds isn't $25.
 

Sakura

Member
I played a few hours of this the other day, and I have to say I am kind of disappointed.
I've never played a previous Democracy game, so I'm not sure how they compare, but I find the game to be quite unrealistic and lacking in depth.
For example, at the beginning of the game, you choose from a list of several countries to start with. However, all this seems to affect is the starting stats, like I guess your GDP pool.

I choose Canada, but there is nothing to really indicate that I am playing as Canada after the fact. The laws that you start with don't even seem to properly reflect the country I am playing. For example, marijuana was legalised at the start of the game, even though it is not legal in Canada.

As for how unrealistic the game is, my credit rating went from AAA to a B, after like only a years time, because I was running a budget deficit of something like 2~3 billion dollars each quarter. I didn't realise country's credit ratings dropped just for having small budget deficits? And so significantly at that? In reality Canada has run a deficit of over 20 billion dollars the last 5 years, and yet the last time I checked our credit rating is still AAA...

Another thing is the laws you enact. Mandatory military service has support from like 50% of the country. In Canada. That's ridiculous. Many other laws were like that too, even some having as high as 98%.

The game is called democracy, yet there are no real politics going on. There are opposition parties (apparently) but there is never any question period, there is never debates with other parties of things, it's like they don't exist and I just do whatever I want. I made abortion illegal. I made marijuana illegal. I raised the drinking age to 21. I cut back the amount of money people get on maternity leave by half. I installed mandatory military service for a year in the country. And yet 72% of the country approves of me and would vote for me in the next election? Pretty ridiculous I must say, and not a very realistic government simulator.

There were also lots of minor things that annoyed me. Like when you are choosing a country why is France the only one that has a population growth stat on the summary screen? Why is the big mac index only given for a few countries? Or how I would get a message that said "A pipeline has been attacked in a neighbouring country". The only real neighbouring country is the US, why not at least make me feel a little bit like I'm playing the country I selected? Or at the start of the game 41% of the population would vote for me in the next election, so the game calls this poor and casts doubt on whether I would win. I didn't realise this was a 2 party system? 41% of the vote is pretty much a majority government here.

I understand the game is likely low budget and all, but I wish they would've put a bit more effort into making the game realistic.
 

saunderez

Member
It needs a lot of balancing and that will help but I think mods will save the day and turn it into a more realistic game.
 

S1lent

Member
This game is half off on Steam right now. Anybody biting? Those that already have it, other thoughts on the game? Impressions seem pretty lukewarm, but perhaps things have been improved though patches/mods?
 
This game is half off on Steam right now. Anybody biting? Those that already have it, other thoughts on the game? Impressions seem pretty lukewarm, but perhaps things have been improved though patches/mods?

I brought the game 3 hours ago and since then I'm impressed. There's nothing like that actually.
 

Mumford

Member
I watched TotalBiscuit's WTF is on this last night, & I'm intrigued. I just might check it out for the right price.
 
Can you brutally crush freedom in this game?

Yes.

So, first game ended with my murder by an uncontrolled black supremacy group of something like that. I even fired one of my ministers to make room for a specialist but nothing, I still learning how to improve in this field.

Democracy 3... so far so good
 
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