the american constitution was deliberately written to make change slow and difficult. american politics is a game won by inches, not hail marys.
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Democratic Primary Debate VI: Raid Time 2/11 9PM EST
- Thread starter dramatis
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the american constitution was deliberately written to make change slow and difficult. american politics is a game won by inches, not hail marys.
Part of why she's not like how she was in the 90's is that she was not only attacked, but when she revealed her primary philosophy everyone laughed at her for being too nice. I'm not kidding about that last part, there was a fantastic piece from BuzzFeed on that a month or so ago.
What she is now is what people turn into when they're under constant assault, you don't let your real self show for fear of being attacked and made fun of again and again. You see it with kids when they get bullied for too long.
How long was Harper PM?
Ogrekiller
Member
And the economy is now in the gutter, whereas the US economy is thriving yet Americans still bitch about not being progressive enough.
The Liberal victory was the Canadian version of 08. Then Democrat and progressive alike ran from the midterms and the revolution died a slow death.
Now only the presidency remains reliably Democrat. Thank goodness the Republicans shot off their own feet.
Damn straight and I'm happy as hell that Bernie's running in this election. Progressivism has a bigger national spotlight now than it's had in decades because of him.
We have people in here who don't even know what Clinton's involvement in health care reform was. How much do people think Kissinger will resonate with voters?
Yup, I love America but a straight up Democracy would be awful. How would Loving vs. Virginia look had the majority decided. Around 25% of the population at that time supported interracial marriage.
....I am beginning to think you don't understand the differences between how Canadians and the US select a majority.
It took almost ten years to get rid of Harper, and Canada has a non-partisan, independent body drawing up its electoral maps.
The rhetoric you are using is lovely but it doesn't really do much to overcome the practical challenges at play.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Bernie pulling Hillary further left I'm super happy about. I do agree with the guy on basically every actual issue
Bernie's rhetoric that might encourage his supports to stay home if he doesn't get the nomination actively worries me. I was glad to see that he didn't lean too hard into that tonight, even if he deserves to get heat for the 2012 thing
Lincoln should have compromised with the South by letting them keep their slaves but make incremental changes to their quality of life. Right?
FDR should have compromised and let the market dictate the economic recovery and just pay stimulus to the bankers, and not enact one of the greatest infrastructure spends in your country which recovered your economy. Right?
Come on. Your history is full of "hail mary" political actions. They were hard though but you became a better country out of them. Your country is getting to an identity crisis point, not as drastic as the civil war or great depression, but it's still up there.
Dixon's Jet
Banned
Well he's already got the youth so this can give the older folks pause for thought.
And both need to be informed. Clinton has been a huge advocate for healthcare for decades. But Henry is a motherfucker of epic proportions.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
Tabris' inferiority complex to the US defies reason, space and time.
loki 16
Member
People are going to google him and see how huge of a monster he is.
Ogrekiller
Member
Don't worry about them. Worry about the Reagan Democrats who stay home if Bernie is the nominee, or the DNC hanging him out to dry.
No politician should just receive their nomination without debate. At that time there was nothing wrong with Sanders bringing up the idea given his position as an independent and not a member of the Democratic party. Obama ran on a lot of issues that were not fully followed through with and made choices supporters didn't fully agree with. There's nothing wrong with having him defend and explain that to his party and prove again that he deserves to run as their candidate.
The fact that this isn't automatic is one of many issues with the American election system. Everyone should be held accountable for their record and have to defend themselves and prove themselves deserving of serving the people again. If the people approve of their record and service they'll win. This is one of the reasons I support Bernie. I like Hillary a lot, she'll likely make a fine President when she gets the nom and wins the general, but no one is entitled to the nomination. There should always be a strong debate and race to earn that privilege, and I'm very pleased to see that happening now in this primary.
Abolition was a slow incremental step in this country that finally boiled over into the Civil War. And while the New Deal was a drastic new step it didn't happen over night it had to be pushed out in pieces and fought every inch for, in fact the Supreme Court overturned many of FDR's early policies before the "switch in time that saved nine."
Yeah it's not a happy thing to admit that more direct democracy tends to lead to worse results. Civil rights as you point out tend to die when the sample size is small.
Local dominance is wonderful in concept, but often results in tyranny of the minority.
This is more or less the platform Lincoln ran on.
metalslimer
Member
The fact that you even put the current situation in America as up there with the civil war or depression in terms of a climate shows how little you understand this country. If you want an example of a drastic change recently let's look at gay marriage which the result of decades of Supreme Court nominations and legal battles.
Macho Madness
Member
The first one literally tore our country apart, only by force and our bloodiest war were we able to get it through.
The second was a result of the Great Depression. Things got really really bad and so change was unanimously needed.
We don't have that in 2016. We have issues, but the country is not falling apart.
Zok310
Banned
The older voters, the only support Hillary have left, will not like her Kissenger response. It was a stupid response once you take the older voters into account.
Spoiled Milk
Banned
She's the finest steel forged from political fire.
I feel bad for her, actually. She's had a rough career.
When Republicans are raising more money than has ever been spent in an American election to meet their goal of slashing benefits, repealing the Affordable Care Act, dismantling the Iranian nuclear deal, waging war in Iraq, preventing common sense banking reform, denying global warming exists, and creating a regressive tax policy...
Why wouldn't you want to make some friends with money? The Friends of Bill are saving the country.
Thing is Hillary won't be going to literal war with the right.
if you say so. I don't see the Kissinger thing being much of an issue honestly. The Sanders campaign's response to the eventual ads painting him as adversarial to Obama will not be to tie Clinton to Kissinger.
please educate yourself on american history and/or the american political system if you intend on critiquing it or the people that participate in it
it took this country a hundred years from its formation to abolish slavery and then another hundred years after that and the end of the Civil War before the civil rights act was passed, and the country is still struggling to reconcile that racial divide
Haha, funny you mention that, Lincoln almost did compromise on slavery to prevent conflict!
And again, outside of wars, there aren't drastic changes like that.
Hate to now be the pessimist, but the US economy will not be thriving for long. If there isn't another crash this year, I'd be surprised if there wasn't one in the next several years. Temporary patch up really. Same old antics in the financial world.
Ogrekiller
Member
In fact, Bernie raised so much money, he should put it where his mouth is and spread it out to the rest of his senator and house rep friends that could use some revolutionary spirit themselves!
Epsilon-delta
Banned
RustyNails
Member
Canada is nothing like the American system of politics and how it's run. If you put a Democratic Socialist on a ticket, the voters are not coming out to vote for him. He gets the leftwing base of the democratic party excited and that's about it. Every time democrats had someone talk about how socialism is nice and raising taxes is ok, the GOP ran the board. That's why Democrats created the superdelegate system; a buffer in case idiots like Bernie show up again. Arguably the country is more diverse and progressive now, but it's not enough to counter the disdain everyone outside of leftwing politics has for big government and socialism.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
Importantly the nominee needs to hold the Obama coalition. The coalition that turned Virgina blue and made in-rows to the south (I'm in Georgia and the GOP was sweating in '08). Obama laid the groundwork to put the GOP completely on the defensive in the general, and if the nominee can hold that and have strong coattails, we're in good shape.
excelsiorlef
Member
And we still went with the more pragmatic centre left progressive and not the far left party (which I voted for because our system is different and it wasn't a risk.)
America is much, much better than it was during the Civil War or Great Depression. That's why people are sorta skeptical about radical change at the moment, because why rock the boat?
Look, I am a Sanders supporter, but c'mon. Lincoln never had plans to abolish slavery, and when he did in the middle of the war, it was directed towards the seceded states and not to the slave states that remained in the Union.
excelsiorlef
Member
Good lord. Yeah he went to war, a justified war but brutal war. The difference between Sanders and Clinton is not on that level.
I always suggest people vote their heart during primaries (Bernie!) and then vote the realist in the general (Hillary? or Bernie!). In American politics it's always served me well.
It's a strange system but not without reason.
The left would rock if they knew there wasn't a chance of throwing themselves overboard instead of the right.
Jeffolation
Banned
Nearly 10 bloody years.
Christ, he's was in charge that long? Even W only lasted 8.
JesseEwiak
Member
As people pointed out, that was actually Lincoln's initial plan until the South threw a hissy fit and even then, he ran on a join ticket with a nearly pro-Southern Democrat in 1864 and basically had a Inaguration speech that was "let's be cool with each other after this is done" (ie. malice toward none).
As for FDR, he made all kinds of compromises. He locked black people out of Social Security, cut spending in 1937, and a dozen other things that would've got him attacked on Twitter if it existed back then. He ran as a moderate between fascism and communism.
excelsiorlef
Member
There's plenty wrong with wanting to primary a sitting a centre left progressive president.
This isn't the nomination this is wanting to oust a sitting president over issues that would not be solved via primarying a sitting president.
Obama was doing fine leading up to 2012 and had he been primaried or had Sanders had the platform he has now he would have handed Romney the White House easily.
lastflowers
Banned
It's a response from last week's debate where Hillary claimed to be proud to be supported by Kissinger or something along those lines.
I bet Sanders' team decided that's a good attack vector for derailing the expertise of Hillary's Foreign Policy, to go alongside the Iran comments, etc. Not claiming they worked or are correct assertions, just what I imagine the thought process was.
Ogrekiller
Member
Not to mention FDR had house and senate majorities.
And so did Lincoln. Funny how that turned out.
Basileus777
Member
Honestly my problem is that they are both really flawed candidates. I'm just glad the Republicans are in such disarray because otherwise they'd have a clear path to the Whitehouse and total control of the government.
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