I think jaywalking laws in Australia are pretty reasonable. No crossing improperly within 20m of a pedestrian crossing. If any sections of road are problematic we tend to just put a fence up to discourage people crossing instead of changing the rules. It doesn't stop people from being dickheads and jaywalking at the lights in the middle of peak-hour though.
Did you know Jaywalking was a crime manufactered by the car industry?
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Anyone who doesn't respect right of way should be ticketed. Especially in an egregious situation that affects traffic. I can tell you from the pedestrian side when I get my Walk signal half the time drivers taking rights will dart out in front trying to beat me to the punch or something. We're playing games with giant machines vs people all the time. Fucking idiots. God forbid one of those jagoffs ever gets a ticket before they kill someone. Drivers in cities where walking is more common have a lot more respect for pedestrians and better understanding of right of way and the like.
HalfBakedProphet
Member
How far do you feel this right should extend? Have you ever driven on a busy college campus before? Or in a parking lot? I don't think a cars' "right" to the road, as you put it, should over take safety.
I don't think you appreciate or fully understand how much force you control behind the wheel of a car. Or the potential harm the person on foot is in trying to traverse our man made jungles of concrete and steel.
Here is my opinion on this issue outside of the silly strawman argument that pedestrians across america don't have a self preservation instinct. This country is build to accommodate cars. We tore up our cities making room for freeways, we created parking spaces out of parks and built our infrastructure catering to personal vehicles. We made it almost impossible, thanks in large part to urban sprawl, to travel for basic necessities without a car. Car culture is so deeply ingrained in American culture, they have become inseparable. In this process, drivers have become extremely entitled. When the entire system is built to accommodate their needs, it's not difficult to see how this occurred.
Car culture and the infrastructure that perpetuates it has blinded drivers to the plight of people trying to traverse an environment not built for them. The idea that it is too great of an inconvenience for the ones encased in speeding steel to slowdown or (God Forbid!) stop for completely defenseless people trying to get from one side of the road to the other is quite literally insane. The idea the greater responsibility for everyones safety shouldn't fall on the shoulders on ones with all the power, speed and momentum is systematically accepted insanity.
You're traveling in a machine which has killed more Americans than all American wars combined (3.2 million have died in car related accidents, but that statistic is from 2012). Act like it. When I'm crossing the road, I'm at the mercy of your car. Totally and completely. Respect the amount of power you wield and pay attention. The car is the deadly variable in this equation.
Interestingly, until I had come to Smalltown USA I had never seen cops enforce Jaywalking laws. I mean, I'd seen people Jaywalk, but it wasn't till I got to Smalltown I saw cops busting people for it. Ironically, nobody respects crosswalks in this town. I was in one when a car damn near turned on top of me.
soundscream
Member
Um I was in an accident a couple of months ago where I hit someone. I was doing the speed limit but a pedestrian wearing all black at night at an intersection with no lights on the side of the road decided to walk through the intersection while I had the light. I literally didn't see him till he was right in front of me. I swerved out of the way and still clipped him. Afterwards I was found not at fault because he wasn't paying attention.
Fenderputty
Banned
I've heard that in order to jaywalk, one must disrupt traffic. If one crosses when no traffic is coming it wouldn't be considered jaywalking. I have no idea if this is true, but i am curious.
Fornaximus
Member
As a delivery driver, I'm very happy with the lack of people spontaneously darting across the road. Not just because I don't have to dodge moving targets, but because it would cause even more congestion in LA's already-congested streets.
HalfBakedProphet
Member
So you were found to not be at fault. I would agree with that, given the circumstances. What's the problem?
Never driven in Los Angeles, I see.
Basileus777
Member
Unfortunately that power doesn't include x-ray vision or the ability to stop those death machines instantaneously. Pedestrians have a responsibility to look out for their own safety, and that includes not walking out in the middle of the road in a situation where a driver doesn't have adequate time to see you and stop. You're incredibly naive if you think pedestrians are always right or never do stupid things that cause incidents.
King Of Fuh
Member
Ridiculous. Drivers should constantly be expecting pedestrians to run out in front of them without warning, anywhere and everywhere, because they are in a larger machine?
Pedestrian can stop quicker and manouver easier than cars.
Trains are even larger and heavier metal death machines.. How about we legislate getting rid of railway crossings too? Just cross wherever we want? Engineers should pay attention to where they're driving and stop in time for random drivers crossing the tracks.
HalfBakedProphet
Member
in response to this and Alchemy's posts, I'm not defending dipshits in LA playing chicken with cars traveling 45 mph. Astrolad's post
is the type of thing I'm discussing.
you'd be right, that is naive. Good thing I'm not making that argument
Replace "pedestrians" in this scenario with "children". Fuck yes people in cars should always be vigilant.
Actually, I'm almost sure that the Washington State Driver's manual does say something to this effect.
jim-jam bongs
Member
Jaywalking is fine if the person isn't a twat. If you walk out in front of a car without looking, you're a twat.
There are appropriate stop signs and speed limits for both of those places.
I went to a commuter university.
You're making it sound like pedestrians are not the priority. Pedestrians always have the right of way, even when they're breaking the law. If you accidentally run over someone who was jaywalking in the middle of night, you're the one who's getting in trouble. Even if you were following the speed limit and obeying every law, you still get in trouble for some jackass jumping out into the middle of the road.
Nobody wants to blame a jaywalker who got hit by a car because they're either injured or dead. Somebody has to take the blame, so they often blame the driver.
Basileus777
Member
You shouldn't certainly be looking out for people stepping onto the road, that doesn't make reckless crossings by pedestrian any less dangerous though.
Necromanti
Member
Most depressing thing I've read all day.
Spanx McFranks
Banned
Part of safe driving is being constantly aware of your surroundings and leaving yourself and out to adjust for unexpected situations. It isn't unreasonable to expect a driver to be responsible for handling their large machine when someone crosses a street.
At my alma matter there's not just jaywalking, there's pretty much not even looking to see if cars are coming jaywalking.
The only times I've heard of someone getting hit though was when NOT jaywalking, and it was always a parent during orientation. Which was strange to think about.
The only times I've heard of someone getting hit though was when NOT jaywalking, and it was always a parent during orientation. Which was strange to think about.
LA is insane. They might as well just do away with sidewalks altogether. I'm the fastest walker I know and when crossing their gigantic intersections I make it with barely a couple seconds left. I was walking once with an older person (not even handicapped per se, just couldn't walk briskly) and it was completely impossible for him to get across the street in the time given even when starting immediately. And it's not like pedestrians just get regular Walk signals so of course you need to force people to run across the street on their light, you have to press the button first so the system is designed like that even though they know there's an actual person crossing basically any time the Walk signal comes up.
Oh but don't worry LA is cracking down on its already beaten-down pedestrians because you know let's make sure we get more cards on those roads:
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/dec/18/opinion/la-ed-jaywalking-20131218
a Master Ninja
Member
Can't look up, gotta finish that tweet.
Little Green Yoda
Member
Parking lots and college campuses aren't roads per se. And as somebody above noted, the rules for driving in those areas with a lot of foot traffic are stricter (namely slower speed limits). Both drivers and pedestrians have their own set of rules to follow. It's perfectly legitimate to call out the pedestrians who break the rules (jaywalking) as it is to call out drivers who break the rules (going over the speed limit, weaving in and out of traffic, etc).
I love how a topic about jaywalking (aka pedestrians breaking the rules) turns into an argument that drivers are entitled. Yeah, there are bad drivers and there are bad pedestrians. The topic is about the latter but you seem fixated on blaming the other side.
The only reason I brought up the term "entitled" is because there isn't really a better word to describe the jaywalkers who don't even look out for incoming vehicles. Or the ones who jaywalk at their own leisurely pace (despite the capability of hustling out of the way). They do this because they "know" any vehicles will slow/stop for them. Except when they don't and it becomes a tragic newstory.
Also, :lol at thinking urban cities are so great for drivers. Driving in the city sucks, never mind parking.
Fornaximus
Member
I'm a fat, slow walker and I never run out of time crossing at a light in LA. You must be crossing some janky streets. I did get a jaywalking ticket once while I was taking my sweet ass time crossing at a notoriously fast light real late at night once. Unfortunately a cop saw me still crossing after the light had already turned. Fortunately he didn't deem it necessary to search me and find the meth in my pocket. I was very happy to make it home with a jaywalking ticket.
That biz about the police ticketing people for going during a count is BS, though. They shouldn't do that. Some counts are really long and provide more than enough time to cross. If you're still walking when the count is over and the light changes, then yeah, you should get a ticket like I did. You're holding things up. But not if you start during a count and make it over there before it turns.
This was Century City area I think? I was staying at a hotel there so walking a lot. I'm sure it varies. I've walked in neighborhoods in LA a good amount -- not a lot of lights so not an issue and I don't have a big survey or anything, but that intersection in particular I still remember.
Fornaximus
Member
Ah, not all that familiar with that area. Usually just drive through it if I'm out there at all. Most of my foot traffic is spent in the valley where I live, Santa Monica/Venice, or downtown.
The Shadow
Member
Keep in mind that this is coming from a guy who walked to work and school for years.
I've seen far more asshole pedestrians and drunks stumbling out in the middle of a busy street than cars being dangerous for pedestrians. If the speed limit was 25, I'd say fuck jaywalking laws, but it's not. It's as high as 45 in the middle of the city and when people stumble in front of cars because they're texting on the phone or because they're drunk and get hit, I have a tendency to side with the driver.
Three of the last four places I lived were close to the largest college in the state and and the sheer amount of stupidity I've seen from people walking around astounded me. Most people are fine, but I always cringe every time I watch someone chatting away or not paying attention to where they're going and nearly get hit by a bus or something.
I've seen far more asshole pedestrians and drunks stumbling out in the middle of a busy street than cars being dangerous for pedestrians. If the speed limit was 25, I'd say fuck jaywalking laws, but it's not. It's as high as 45 in the middle of the city and when people stumble in front of cars because they're texting on the phone or because they're drunk and get hit, I have a tendency to side with the driver.
Three of the last four places I lived were close to the largest college in the state and and the sheer amount of stupidity I've seen from people walking around astounded me. Most people are fine, but I always cringe every time I watch someone chatting away or not paying attention to where they're going and nearly get hit by a bus or something.
HalfBakedProphet
Member
Besides the speed limit, there is no difference between the pedestrian right-of-way law of a college campus and that of a residential area. Driver behavior, however, varies dramatically in those areas. That was the point I was trying to make
did you not read the OP? The proliferation of jaywalking laws were the result car company lobbyist propaganda bullshit to shift the blame away from drivers.
who said it was "great" for drivers? I didn't. Your average American city has transformed in the last 80 years to accommodate drivers at the expense of pedestrians, absolutely. That isn't debatable, it is fact. Here is a quote from the OP you
Your argument is framed that, hey, there are bad pedestrians and bad drivers. It's a wash. But he the power dynamic between drivers and walkers is anything but balanced. The road system which we all must deal with isnt balanced. The way most (there are exceptions) of our cities are built make it impossible for it to be balanced. Like I said, cars are the deadly part of the equation. Not these suicidal strawmen jumping into the highways of LA which have been mentioned numerous times
Before I didn't think jaywalking was so bad, but now leaving my university parking lot, holy shit some people are stupid. The traffic is crazy there and even with all the crosswalks on the roads some people think its perfectly fine to walk across anywhere they want making people who are turning onto the road have to stop mid traffic potentially causing more harm then If they just hit the person.
Fornaximus
Member
That shit is mind-boggling. I see it all the time, too. Usually in parking lots. I'll be driving around, looking for a spot, and see people walk out of a store, straight through where cars are driving with their face stuck in their phones the entire time. No effort to check and see if it's safe to cross. They just assume people will stop for them.
The Shadow
Member
This isn't even in parking lots where cars are going slow. This is large 3-lane roads with a posted 45 MPH limit (or higher) where people are just walking full tilt from behind a bus, or literally starting to cross the street right as a car is about to pass by. Not AFTER it passes by, just before, as in screeching tires because a guy decides he has to cross right the fuck now instead of waiting until it's clear.
I simply can't believe how some of these people have survived so long being so stupid.
Extra Sauce
Member
I just think it would be unnerving for drivers to know that pedestrians are allowed to cross the street wherever and whenever they want at a moment's notice. And I say that as someone who doesn't drive.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
I don't see why this shouldn't be illegal when it's illegal, for example, to not wear a seatbelt. Technically, jaywalking is worse as you're not just putting just your own life in danger, but also lives of potential drivers/passengers trying to avoid someone at the last moment. The fine is there to simply discourage people from being terminally careless.
Seatbelt violations put other people in danger; a person not wearing a seatbelt basically becomes a projectile.
King Of Fuh
Member
No, it isn't uneasonable.... When they are crossing at designated locations. Vehicles being subject to stopping quickly, at any time, and any speed, and any location, when the emergency stopping distance of cars can easily reach the triple digit footage numbers, so that pedestrians can treat roads like an open field they can walk across however they'd like, whenever they'd like, and always have the right of way, is a danger to pedestrians, a danger to the guy stopping, and a danger to all other vehicles also on the road.
Just because drivers need to be aware of their surroundings, doesn't mean pedestrians should constantly be throwing all drivers unexpected curveballs with unexpected road crossings. Cross at the designated locations, just as cars cross roads at designated intersections.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
That's true, but the danger for others from that is remote. I'm pretty sure the reason for not wearing seat belts being illegal is not the 0.01% chance the projectile driver kills someone, but the fact that the unnecessary injuries and death of car passengers puts additional strain on social and health systems. Either way, the reasoning remains the same, both things put person involved in unnecessary danger, and could provide a remote chance for danger to others.
Little Green Yoda
Member
I don't agree with this part. When pedestrians are around in either area, drivers tend to be careful. When either area is devoid of pedestrians, you're going to see some drivers going above the speed limit (unless that area is known to have cops patroling/watching for offenders).
Due to the increased foot traffic, a parking lot might as well be a gigantic crosswalk. A street (even in a residential area) is not. That's why residential areas have 25 mph limits while the limits at parking lots are 5 or 10 mph. That's not to say drivers shouldn't be vigilant of children but that's why those streets don't have 30+ mph limits posted.
So because the origin of the laws came about from an industry covering their asses, they are worthless? Do you think jaywalking laws should be eliminated? Should there be restrictions on how a pedestrian behaves with regards to streets/cars/drivers/etc?
The way the cities are designed is a shame, I agree. Regardless of the intent of the city developers, drivers and pedestrians come into contact with one another and they have to get along despite being a hindrance to the other party. Which only happens if each side is considerate towards the other - the law is simply a way dictate that to people with no common sense about the matter.
yes, sometimes enforcement of the law to its letter without recognizing its spirit becomes detrimental - i.e. ticketing somebody crossing the middle of a street with zero traffic
Now who's making strawmen? A wash? I've just pointed out there are some really, really shitty pedestrians out there (ones who deserve to be ticketed). I'm surprised you didn't accuse me of handwaving DUI offenders, text and drivers, tailgaters, etc. while vilifying poor pedestrians who have to fear for their lives every time they set foot on the pavement. I know there are a ton of bad drivers out there. I know that the pedestrian has way more to lose than the driver in the event of an accident. I don't doubt most of the deadly pedestrian accidents can be attributed to the fault of a bad driver.
None of that excuses the bad pedestrians for being stupid. I'm also guessing most of the "suicidal" pedestrians mentioned aren't doing so on highways.
This is incredibly wrong and untrue. It all depends on the circumstances of course, but for instance, my friend's mother had someone do that, a jackass jumped in front of her car (they thought maybe he was mental/suicidal) and he died. She was never charged or blamed as it was deemed the pedestrians fault.
Where I am from, the driver is almost always to blame. I live in LA.
If they had reason to believe he had mental issues or was suicidal, then that is a reason why your friend's mother was not charged.
But if we're talking about an accident where there is no underlying factor (mental issues or drunk driving), the driver can be charged with a crime or have a civil suit filed against them.
Where are you driving 50mph with a crosswalk 20 feet away?
HalfBakedProphet
Member
no, but your point of contention was concerning the purpose of the thread...when you clearly didn't read the OP.
it seems like an accurate representation of your position at this point. Its not my intention to purposefully misrepresent your opinion.
And we are done. When it gets to this point, you have no intention of advancing the conversation in any meaningful way. I'm not going to defend shit I never said or even implied.
Ive said over and over I'm not going to defend these hypothetical pedestrians who lack a self preservation instinct and leap in front of speeding cars, despite the constant effort to put me in that position. I plainly laid out my opinion on this issue. I'm not sure what else to say. Cars are the deadly variable of this equation.
Junior Asparagus
Member
I've never even heard of anyone getting ticketed for jaywalking in Massachusetts. Everyone does it all the time, even in front of cops. As long as everyone tries not to get run over, it should work fine.
HalfBakedProphet
Member
Right on the nose. What's insane is that the default answer to traffic problems by most city planners is to increase driving lanes and parking spaces. They're making traffic issues worse, its crazy how backwards they are.
I'm taking a human geography seminar right now on cities and sustainability. Its crazy how prophetic Jane Jacobs was; she was totally correct on a lot of the problems with city planning trends in the 1950s and 60s which we now are forced to deal with and are trying to reverse. All this ties back into and is connected to urban sprawl, US oil dependancy, carbon emissions and climate change. Especially when China is following our lead on personal vehicles. But that's another story for a different thread
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