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[Dice]

Anyways, I'm only trying to change worldviews, not tell people they are going to Hell.

Why should other people not be allowed to believe you are going to hell and express as much? How is it different from disagreement and freedom of speech on any other topic?

can I ask, if God was absolutely positively real for everyone to see... but he offered no rewards to people that followed him and no punishments for those that went against him...

what would you do?

What would His nature be? If His nature was the only source of all life and good, then to depart from Him would be to depart from all life and good, it would be a bad decision. On the flipside to follow Him would be to pursue that which is life and goodness, and so that would be good and the right thing to do.

If your question presupposes a God that is nither good nor bad, then what difference would it make? But then if He were nither good nor bad, I would wonder what it would then mean to "follow" Him and what the reasons (perhaps stated by Him?) to follow Him or not would be.

For the rest of your post I wonder what your point in asking is. I don't believe based on reward, my beliefs are merely my best understanding as to the way things are. The very nature of your questions seems to be on the basis of taking a chance, of which is the best guess for the answer of life.

But I'm not guessing here and trying to reason out the most profitable answer. But by the way I see things it is true, simple as that, and so I accept it like I accept the fact that the sun shines. My beliefs about other things such as heaven and hell and judgment come by proxy, they aren't determining factors.

So there are two people. Both people have identical morals and follow the same ethical code. They both donate to charity. They both never lie or cheat or steal or covet. Only one of them is Christian.

The other guy is going to hell??!?

If you were saved by your works then there would be no need for Christ and God would be unjust for letting sin go unpunished. I could explain what I believe about the gospel, but it's hard to find anything that gets too detailed that isn't denominationally biased if that's what you're looking for.

 

[videogamer]

You get mad at Christians for "forcing" their morals on you, but you want to turn around and do the exact same thing to them! I've seen it many times on this board, in the media, on television, and just about everywhere else.

I'm a Christian who votes according to my moral beliefs. Guess what? So does everyone else! If you all consider that "forcing" my beliefs on you or what not, then so be it, just remember though, you do the exact same thing. If I was an atheist who was pro-life and pro-traditional marriage, would you still be as hostile towards my values? Do I also not have a right in this country to express my opinions through my votes?

You don't have to have abortions or marry a guy. We aren't limiting options in these two areas. You guys are. That's why you guys are forcing your beliefs on us... we don't limit options or make you guys do anything about gay marriages or abortions.

Practically everyone here on these boards yells for total tolerance of all opinions, except of course those of Christians. I'll be straightforward with you all though, most people here know nothing but stereotypes of Christians, and you all fall for it too.

Certainly not me...
But remember that Christians make up the majority of the country here. If the dominant religion were suddenly something else, we'd be complaining about them.

It gets rather frustrating perusing these boards and constantly seeing Christians getting bashed. In fact, they are the only group you people on this board do not tolerate, and love to bash over and over again. Why is that? Is that not hypocrisy?

I don't speak for the whole board, but I know that certain other posters and I strongly dislike the Christians' actions, rather the people themselves.

Of course, I'm still waiting for the CNS news thing to be backed up.

Why should other people not be allowed to believe you are going to hell and express as much? How is it different from disagreement and freedom of speech on any other topic?

Freedom of thought is generally allowed in this country. I never said anything about government prohibition on these thoughts.

 

[Dilbert]

How can anyone ever please the God of the Universe, who created everything in existence, by what we do? What does God need from you? How can you ever please an infinitly holy and good God?

Which, of course, begs the question:

Why would an omnipotent, omniscient being need or want human beings to believe in him? And why would he want to punish those who did not with eternal torment?

With all due respect, Christianity has some of the most illogical, inconsistent beliefs that I've ever seen, and most of them assume that human beings know far more than they possibly can about the desires of a allegedly existing being who is COMPLETELY unlike us.

 

[Dice]

Which, of course, begs the question:

Why would an omnipotent, omniscient being need or want human beings to believe in him?

Scripture says He created us in love for a loving relationship, as our Father. It was a creative act as well as a loving act towards us, both factors being a part of His nature.

And why would he want to punish those who did not with eternal torment?

First of all He is, by nature, the most important being in the universe, He created everything and by Him all things are held together (see Colossians 1). It demands due honor and respect, and does infinitely. Basically any transgression/due punishment you can think on finite terms, it muliplies by infinity if it is against Him. Secondly He is, by nature, the only source of life and all good things, so by rejecting Him you reject life and all good things, pretty much leaving yourself with hell anyway.

 

[way more]

But remember that Christians make up the majority of the country here. If the dominant religion were suddenly something else, we'd be complaining about them.

I wish you people would understand this, its just the minorities way to even out the opression. Does Eddie Griffin get as much crap from bitchy white people?

 

[Dilbert]

Scripture says He created us in love for a loving relationship, as our Father. It was a creative act as well as a loving act towards us, both factors being a part of His nature. First of all He is, by nature, the most important being in the universe, He created everything and by Him all things are held together (see Colossians 1). It demands due honor and respect, and does infinitely. Basically any transgression/due punishment you can think on finite terms, it muliplies by infinity if it is against Him. Secondly He is, by nature, the only source of life and all good things, so by rejecting Him you reject life and all good things, pretty much leaving yourself with hell anyway.

Did I stutter or something?

THAT MAKES NO FUCKING SENSE.

Let's try this by analogy: If you literally own everything in the world, what do you want for Christmas?

 

[Chipopo]

To think that an omniscient entity would be plagued with such a primitive EGO is disconcerting. You'd think someone of His stature would be beyond humanistic trifles like that.

edit: replacing "his" for "His", just in case I hurt His feelings.

 

[videogamer]

I wish you people would understand this, its just the minorities way to even out the opression. Does Eddie Griffin get as much crap from bitchy white people?

I don't quite understand what you are saying. I tend to be angry over what they are doing... they just happen to be Christian.

 

[way more]

I don't quite understand what you are saying. I tend to be angry over what they are doing... they just happen to be Christian.

I mean that I feel something of a privilege to make fun of the majority. I don't think we're saying the same thing at all.

 

[Dice]

Did I stutter or something?

THAT MAKES NO FUCKING SENSE.

Let's try this by analogy: If you literally own everything in the world, what do you want for Christmas?

And as I said, He created us to be in a relationship with Him. It was out of a creative, giving nature, not to get something. However, since He is, by nature, the only Source of life and all good things, the One that holds everything together, and we are created things, then if one rejects Him they reject all of that as well as the purpose they were created for and so there lies their destruction. Check Acts 17:22-31 and see what Paul said to the men of Athens.

To think that an omniscient entity would be plagued with such a primitive EGO is disconcerting. You'd think someone of His stature would be beyond humanistic trifles like that.

God is not like an egotistical man, who makes himself out to be more important than he is. If God is God and really is the Creator and the only Source of life and all good things, the One that holds everything together, then He really is that important. People give their honor and praise to that which is good, and more honor and praise to that which is greater. So if God is really God then He is by nature worthy of the greatest possible honor and praise, He is by nature the most important being in the entire universe, He is the top priority and it would the greatest injustice to transgress against Him.

This has always been man's problem, trying to make the creation more important than the Creator, trying to gain equality with God. That is what makes no sense to me.

 

[God's Hand]

There's no evidence of any God ever existing. We humans have active imaginations. We seek answers all the time. Some of us, when we can't find a realistic answer, use God as an excuse.

Just because millions of people follow a religion doesn't make it reality. There have always been new religions, albiet small, popping up throughout history. So with that in mind, believing in a God is just stupid. But believing in a way of life, that's not stupid. I think the Bible offers great examples of how I should live, and I follow them. But I think Christianity and every other religion is fucking retarded, and so are the people that follow them. Yeah, even my mom. Got that?

I've noticed that people who believe in God aren't accountable for themselves. There is no luck; it's God's doing. It's because of God that I got this job today! Thank God for the food on my table! No, thank yourself and no one else. It's your life, your responsibilities, your doings. You got where you are because of who you've molded yourself into.

And this guy is just fucked up beyond repair: "I'd rather be on the side of God and get bashed by man then on the side of man and get bashed by God " You fear God, obviously. Don't even reply to me, and don't even deny it. You are dead to me.

People will follow anything that's popular. That's the way most of us work. Religion is just a meme that will likely never die. We'd be better off without religion.

 

[fart]

I don't quite understand what you are saying. I tend to be angry over what they are doing... they just happen to be Christian.

i think he's agreeing with you dude

anyways i'm fucking tired of this reverse discrimination bullshit. if you are the dominant force in a society and are engaging in some forms of repression and then oh no something changes and you aren't as able to engage in this form of repression, you are not being discriminated against! you are still the one repressing! you are still the source of intolerance!

 

[Socreges]

We'd be better off without religion.

If you're saying that man would be better off with natures that didn't often require religion, then I agree with you. But as we are, I'm not so sure where evolution would have taken us without supposed Gods.

Know what I'm saying?

But your post really spoke to me otherwise. *thumbs up*

 

[FortNinety]

Listened to the mp3... really freaky shit.

Oh, just wanted to say that I'm a former Catholic and my life is so much better for it.

 

[Chipopo]

Dice -

I'm not trying to equate my importance with God's. I'm just trying to understand why an omniscient being would shun someone who follows his path without following it under his name. What about someone who lives in a remote part of the world and never hears of Christianity, yet exhibits pure saintliness. Surely he honors God through his actions, despite not explicitly doing it under the veil of Christianity. I can't imagine that an entity free of ego would make such a trifling distinction.

What if the word of the Christian God is somehow lost in 200 years. Memory of Jesus evaporates and new religions spring up. How can these people 200 years from now ever find salvation? There's noone to tell them about Christianity and Jesus. Would this essentially mean that any soul created in that scenario is doomed to hell? Despite the fact that they have no choice in the matter...?

Here's the heart of the issue: A real God would never be so selective. He would base his path on UNIVERSAL truths that can be celebrated, found and understood by every man.

 

[border]

That MP3 really is hilarious. I had no idea that Christians could be so crazy. Did they think that anyone would really listen to that? I wish that there were more similar songs to download!


As for the more serious theological debate, I guess I am not so sure as to why a loving god has to give such harsh, sadistic punishment to nonbelievers. Why do they have to go to hell? Why can't they just slip out of existence/consciousness?

 

[RevenantKioku]

Why do they have to go to hell? Why can't they just slip out of existence/consciousness?

Well then, why believe? Take the easy way out and not care or something I'd guess. I don't know, haha.

 

[Dice]

Dice -

I'm not trying to equate my importance with God's. I'm just trying to understand why an omniscient being would shun someone who follows his path without following it under his name. What about someone who lives in a remote part of the world and never hears of Christianity, yet exhibits pure saintliness. Surely he honors God through his actions, despite not explicitly doing it under the veil of Christianity. I can't imagine that an entity free of ego would make such a trifling distinction.

What if the word of the Christian God is somehow lost in 200 years. Memory of Jesus evaporates and new religions spring up. How can these people 200 years from now ever find salvation? There's noone to tell them about Christianity and Jesus. Would this essentially mean that any soul created in that scenario is doomed to hell? Despite the fact that they have no choice in the matter...?

Here's the heart of the issue: A real God would never be so selective. He would base his path on UNIVERSAL truths that can be celebrated, found and understood by every man.

Romans 1
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

I suggest reading Romans. I don't understand why many who hold objections to Christianity never bother to actually find out what Christianity says about it. I understand that a person can fully understand and still reject it, but it just seems silly to me to reject it on the basis of things that have clear and direct answers provided by most denominations or at least easily derived answers based on what scripture says. I don't differentiate myself from another Christian denominations like Catholicism because they do things differently and it doesn't initially make sense to me. I study and find out why they do and believe what they do and state my disagreement there if there is any.

Anyways I gotta get up at 7:30 so it's bed time for me. Night all.

 

[border]

I like the bit about how his "invisible qualities have been seen" So I guess even someone who has never heard the word Jesus is damned for all eternity (c'mon, it's so obvious! You could have figured it out on your own!).....as is anyone so mentally handicapped that they cannot comprehend the concept of Christianity.

 

[Chipopo]

20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

What exactly is being referred to here? Are they saying that God's prescence is felt within every man, and so those who ignore that prescence are going to hell?

 

[border]

That's what it seemed like to me. "You should be able to figure out Christianity just by looking around the world, and if you can't figure it out then you're fucked." Funny though, how something so "self-evident" was never ever figured out by any other world culture...it took the direct intervention of God/Jesus to bring all of this stuff to light.

God is often referred to as wise and powerful, but he's never really hyped up as fair He sets up rules that go against go against our most basic instincts, and even if you don't know about the rules then you will still be punished because you should have figured the rules out for yourself anyway.

 

[NLB2]

I love the typo.

 

[Zaptruder]

Aw... no one bothered to take up my post and comment on it.

Sure, answer everything else that is in your comfort zone and ignore the one that isn't

 

[iapetus]

Since when do actions of love towards others negate responsibility to Christ's message? How did Christ speak to the pharisees and unbelievers? What were His commandments when sending out the 72 and the great commission? What does the book of Acts show us about the active Christian faith?

While we're playing that one, what were his words to Thomas, who didn't believe?

Zaptruder: Don't think your point quite works here. Dice clearly isn't a Pascal's Wager sort of guy.

 

[mightynine]

I can't believe this thread has been derailed to discuss something other than the narrative work of Jarrell McCracken.

EDIT: Best cover.

EDIT 2: Oh, hell, now I'm torn.

 

[firex]

I prefer 2pac's "letter to my unborn child" to this.

 

[Mason]

Ok, I started busting out laughing when it started singing. It's not funny at all, but that's just horrible.

 

[B-B-Bomba!]

As for the more serious theological debate, I guess I am not so sure as to why a loving god has to give such harsh, sadistic punishment to nonbelievers. Why do they have to go to hell? Why can't they just slip out of existence/consciousness?

My own logical answer to this (logical here meaning my answer is purely mechanistic, and has nothing to do with my own personal beliefs), is that life itself - existence, the very possibility of being - is a karmic investment of a humbling scale. The fact that you exist means that someone, or something, must at some point have given a hell of a shit, about something else. Who, what and why you can ponder at your own discretion. The point here is that you get born owing; infused with life and positive energy, and bound by laws to either continue the promotion of life and positive energy around your environment, or to leech and sponge the creations of others, digging a moral pit for your soul. Eventually the timer runs out, your body gives way, and you commit your last act and await the totting up.

Personally I think the most sensical afterlife is one in which you get to watch the continuation of the universe and the resulting effects of all your lifes actions, knowing that it is the one true, complete descriptor of the applied worth of your soul.

 

[Jacobi]

Why did you have to kill me muuummmyy ?

 

[Dice]

That's what it seemed like to me. "You should be able to figure out Christianity just by looking around the world, and if you can't figure it out then you're fucked." Funny though, how something so "self-evident" was never ever figured out by any other world culture...it took the direct intervention of God/Jesus to bring all of this stuff to light.

Let's try this again...

Romans 1:18 "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,"

The truth of God is something known, and yet supressed.

19 "since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them."

It is supressed (rather than merely ignorance) because it is not a mystery, but made plain.

20 "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made,"

And this is the process of how that occurs. It is clearly seen and understood, not simply left to be discerned.

"so that men are without excuse."

To the extent to which there is no excuse, that of open rejection.

21 "For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened."

But people do reject God, and upon this rejection of God, their mindset goes to follow. This is not an accident, but actually a judgment of sorts by God, He gives people what they want, as seen a few verses later..

Rom 1:28 "Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done."

Here are some further passages...

Romans 8:7 "the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so."

1 Corinthians 2:14 "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."

2 Corinthians 4
1Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness,"made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

John 3
19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

And there is plenty more... But it is at this point that denominations begin to differ in views on the level to which man's depravity reaches, how it is broken through by God's grace, how efficacious that work is or if it is/can be resisted, and to whom and why God extends such grace. These things differ, but each of those factors come into play in every soteriological doctrine.

I happen to agree with the reformed beliefs, more specifically the Presbyterian Church of America--Famous for and often misunderstood for their belief in predestination. Something makes me doubt you care enough to read it, but if you are interested here is an entire book posted online (it is free information) that I think gives a decent explanation of my views. Though of course it doesn't cover everything.

http://www.ccel.org/b/boettner/predest/default.htm

While we're playing that one, what were his words to Thomas, who didn't believe?

I don't see how one instance with Thomas is something for everyone. Perhaps in the need for direct intervention of God due to the previously aforementioned depravity, but I see that as being a spiritual thing (1 Cor 2:12-13) rather than something we would need to see and touch physically. What did Christ say in His parable about the rich man and Lazarus?

Luke 16
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

BTW if you all don't want to hear from me anymore just let me know. I just see questions and so I try to answer them.

 

[levious]

Did I stutter or something?

THAT MAKES NO FUCKING SENSE.

Let's try this by analogy: If you literally own everything in the world, what do you want for Christmas?

two chicks at the same time

 

[Chipopo]

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse

So again, what this is saying is that before Jesus men were capable of inherently understanding the path God wants them to follow... Even though they had never heard of "Christ" or "Christianity". Right?

 

[way more]

The first time this was posted I just heard the first half before something took me away. Does it get worse or is it just the helium-fetus blathering on?

 

[Dice]

So again, what this is saying is that before Jesus men were capable of inherently understanding the path God wants them to follow... Even though they had never heard of "Christ" or "Christianity". Right?

Essentially yes, but now you are getting into Old Testament stuff so this will take a bit of explanation. The law of God's righteousness is written on men's hearts, so they are without excuse...

Romans 2
13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

But salvation isn't found in our perfect fulfillment of the law, everyone fell/falls short of the requirement of the law, and so that is what Christ is for. He fulfilled the law and was/is the only real sacrifice for the atonement of sin.

Romans 3
19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. 21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Those who were before Christ but yet had faith in God were justified before God by Christ's eternal sacrifice, their sacrifices were a foreshadowing of Christ's sacrifice and their faith as unto Him. This is explained really well through the rest of Romans and also Hebrews (especially Hebrews chapter 10), but that's a lot of text so I'll let you look it up if you are interested rather than be obnoxious.

This applied to Jews, but also people in the old testament times that they called called "God-fearers" who were not Jewish but believed in and chose to worship the God of Israel. However by the nature of your question, it would seem that you think salvation is limited by intellectual conception, such is not the case. Love for and rejection of God is a matter of the soul, our actions and intellectual beliefs are only manifestations of the condition of our hearts. This is best seen in the psalms...

Psalm 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Psalm 22:10
From birth I was cast upon you; from my mother's womb you have been my God.

And then prophesy concerning John the baptist and an account of him..

Luke 1
14He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, 15for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth.

39At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40where she entered Zechariah's home and greeted Elizabeth. 41When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.

At this time Mary was carrying Jesus, and Elizabeth, John. And so with this concept of infants still in the womb somehow in their spirit either being hostile toward God or relying upon Him, salvation doesn't seem to rest on intellectual conception, but the conception of the intellect follows the state of the heart and can show where it is.

Luke 6
44Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. 45The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.

And so we are not to judge, but yet still be a witness to the message of the gospel.

Romans 10
6But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

I understand that not all who take on the label of a Christian follow this, but their misrepresentation does not change the validity of the message itself.

 

[Jacobi]

The first time this was posted I just heard the first half before something took me away. Does it get worse or is it just the helium-fetus blathering on?

Later the fetus sings a song.

 

[Chipopo]

However by the nature of your question, it would seem that you think salvation is limited by intellectual conception

Absolutely the opposite of what I believe. I believe that no amount of intellectual conception will make you more worthy of Gods grace (and this is assuming he exists for the sake of the argument), it is only by our actions (or the soul that guides our actions) that we can appease God. This whole time I've only been trying to understand why you would think differently. Why you believe someone has to (on the intellectual level) have a knowledge of Christ and Christianity to be deemed fit by God.

such is not the case. Love for and rejection of God is a matter of the soul, our actions and intellectual beliefs are only manifestations of the condition of our hearts. This is best seen in the psalms...

So here is what I've gathered:

- A good soul will have found Christ. A good person who has not found Christ is still not a worthy soul. So even if two people are identical in both ethics and morals, only the one who has found Christ is going to heaven, because his soul has manifested that belief.

Okay, I disagree with this, but at least I understand it now. (correct me if I'm wrong)

 

[Dice]

So here is what I've gathered:

- A good soul will have found Christ. A good person who has not found Christ is still not a worthy soul. So even if two people are identical in both ethics and morals, only the one who has found Christ is going to heaven, because his soul has manifested that belief.

More accurately, there is no "good" apart from Christ, because everything is then tainted by sin, the most readily recognized being the sin of idolatry and rejection of God. He is the only atonement for sin, and so our only way into heaven is if our sin is imputed to Him and His righteousness imputed to us, and this is by faith. Also I believe people don't "find" God, but God finds them and draws them by His grace.

Grace as to Israel:
Ezekiel 36
23 I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD , declares the Sovereign LORD , when I show myself holy through you before their eyes.
24 " 'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God.

Grace as to the world:
John 16
5"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

Grace as to the disciples:
John 16
12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

Grace as to all believers:
Ephesians 2
3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

John 6
44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 1
22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

As I said my personal belief is in agreement with most reformed denominations, which views it as much more about God's work in us than our own actions (since a dead man cant seek anything, he's dead), though we still do hold the responsibility of being faithful to Him after He draws us and awakens our souls. This can get somewhat complicated to explain in full, the book I linked to earlier does pretty well.

But while my views may differ in such a way, most of the bigger Christian denominations do still acknowledge the need of God's grace first drawing us in some way or another, to which we respond in one way or another. What kind of Savior leaves all the work up to those who need saving? Anyways, as far as I can tell the Catholic doctrine is the most liberal on who may end up going to heaven, and yet places the most credit to/responsibility on each person to ensure that it happens.

A study of the protestant reformation and a lot of the doctrine that was debated at that time (and I suppose still is) would explain a lot, though differing beliefs among the protestants came after that so if you only study stuff from that time period you'll only hear the reformed opposition to the catholic doctrine.

 

[TheQueen'sOwn]

EDIT:
...and the thread dies

 

[Saturnman]

That's what it seemed like to me. "You should be able to figure out Christianity just by looking around the world, and if you can't figure it out then you're fucked." Funny though, how something so "self-evident" was never ever figured out by any other world culture...it took the direct intervention of God/Jesus to bring all of this stuff to light.

Because you forget one important element: Satan. He misleads, creates false religions, tempts you into sin, all to turn you away from God. Without God intervening, Satan's free reign succeeds, he did by making Adam & Eve turn away from God condenming us all, he did, along with his allies make the world filled with weickedness to the point God had to kill everyone save for one family with the great Flood.

Satan is the great boogeyman, the one many like to blame their sins on and explain this apparent evil world created by a perfect God. He's the ultimate scapegoat, the way you can cast away your own doubts by thinking it is Satan misleading you, abandoning all reason and sheepishly follow the word of God without question.

Mainstream Christians tend to consider Satan as a metaphor, a fictional player in many of the Bible's morality tales, but fundamentalists really do believe he exists. And yes, they're completely nuts.

 

[Vormund]

Why can't they just slip out of existence/consciousness?

That's part of our belief.

Just a few points;

I don't believe in eternal torment in hell, you just die. Believers will be resurrected.

I do not believe in a trinity, rather God and Jesus are seperate.

I do not believe in a devil/fallen angel.

Man, I'm going to have some Christians jump on me now.

 

[Saturnman]

Heretic.