Support NeoGAF

[Dice]

So I'm trying Doom the Dark Ages it's really good but I feel something substantial is lost just by having tutorials. Like there is nothing wrong here and it is perfectly Doom but after that first level l am turned off and want a break and l'm pretty sure it is the fact it explained mechanics to me. Even though I would probably pause and look at explanations in menus myself, the fact it interrupts me with popups breaks immersion too much or something? Perhaps psychologically it feels like some entity is watching me play the game and talking about the game, so it just reminds me it's all a game and contrived mechanics instead of a world of demons and guns. Maybe if I pause and check menus, it's like I'm in that world and looking up a book or something?

I remember feeling distinctly the opposite in a very non-handhold game, Elden Ring. I got totally lost exploring for hours and upon reflection on the game after a session I realized it didn't interrupt to tell me jack shit. Maybe I would enjoy all games better if I go into the settings and turn off as much of that as I can and just hash things out as I go, maybe miss some mechanics entirely. I just know after this first level of Doom, only half of my memories are the Slayer purifying the town like an unstoppable powerhouse and the other half of my memories is a bunch of interjecting popups. I'm used to that from mediocre games, but for some reason this stands out as a great game being harmed by a trait of mediocre games.

 

[archangelmorph]

No.

Helldivers 2 tutorial was both useful, critical in teaching you the important tactical measures at your disposal for survival, and also hilariously funny.

 

[Itchy Tickles]

I don't mind tutorials, especially with a game that has many mechanics, but my god do I HATE the hand holding of a lot of modern games.

Does the game need to tell me how ladders work? (Horizon Forbidden West) Can I get to a puzzle and have more than 3 seconds before a character tells me what to do? (God of War Ragnarok) Even more frustrating, games like that never stop with the tutorials throughout the whole game. Constant dialogue lines about basic brain dead stuff.

On your note on games like Elden Ring, it can fall into the trap of being too vague and you end up having to search online for advice. Remember the crap you had to do to just start the DLC in Dark Souls 1 for example?

 

[Ozzie666]

This is where Nintendo excels with a use of organic tutorials, adding new abilities and skills and layering them across the next levels. It's a very different approach, very hard to put into words. But often you just feel its a natural part of the game progression. Not awlays mind you.

 

[HerjansEagleFeeder]

For me definitely, yes. They often times break the immersion. Of course there's good and bad tutorials.

 

[Signalis]

When a game tells you how to do the most basic things like move forward, aim, turn etc. that's ridiculous. And we live in times that it's become rather irritating.

 

[Hudo]

Back then, reading the manual that came with the game was the tutorial. And it was expected that you read it. But people have lost the ability to read anything that is longer than a Twitter post.

 

[supersale88]

If they itroduce new game mechanics that are not in other games than they are ok, but I can't stand the "press x to jump" ones and consider them insulting. Let me figure those things by myself...

 

[Dice]

Another example I recall a different shooter, Wolfenstein: The New Order, where I was sneaking around a nazi base and one was sleeping in a bunk. If I remember correctly as I got close there was a little icon for a button and "Kill" or something like that. So I pushed it and it went to a little cutscene where BJ leaned over, stabbed him, and as the guy briefly writhed he goes "Wake up, you're dead." and it was so unexpected and badass. Totally set the mood and established the character and I then was IN IT, you know? But if, like some games I have played, it paused the game and put up a popup window explaining that if I sneak up on unaware enemies I can do an execute command, maybe with a little video showing it working, it would have taken me out of the game.

 

[kunonabi]

I don't mind tutorials in principle since I actually like games to have wildly different mechanics and control types so tutorials can be be useful in theory. That said, they are pretty pointless most of the time but they are never deal breakers as far as I'm concerned.

 

[roosnam1980]

depends on the core game play mechanics , lords of the fallen 2023 had the worst tutorial i can think of recently.

 

[calico]

If a game has to explain a mechanic, just tell me once and put it in a 'manual' in the menu if I need a refresher.

Elden Ring is an interesting example for communicating with the player, because it chooses not to hold your hand and ostensibly you are free to go do whatever you want, but it's still very gamey in the sense that some content is clearly intended for your current power level and some is not. They knew they did not need to please everyone with the in-game method of figuring out their intended path (basically trial and error) and that the internet (guides) would provide an alternative for those who didn't like the in-game method. This way they get the respect for not hand-holding, while knowing the hands which needed to be held still would be.

With instances of companions / games immediately ruining their own puzzles, it doesn't seem like it should be so difficult to integrate help for people who are actually stuck without ruining it for people who want to figure it out themselves. It just needs to be done in such a way that the player is actively seeking the help and not having it forced upon them.

 

[tylrdiablos]

As someone who recently finished Final Fantasy XIII... the tutorials were still popping up 8 hours into the game. (40+ hour game to be fair.)
A lot of things in that game could have been better, and tutorials were near the top of that list.

 

[Hanzaki]

Its really arrogant to think a game must be cater to you only.

Its nice to have an option to turn it of if not needed for a guy like me who plays games 30+ years but its absolutely not a dealbreaker.

 

[Loomy]

If a game is giving you tutorials past the 1 hour mark, then that's a design problem. But there's nothing wrong with tutorials. Hardcore gamers make a small minority of the total number of people who buy games. Tutorials are meant to bring everyone else up to speed

 

[deriks]

"ruin" I guess it's too much, but mostly are annoying

Super Metroid has the first level as a tutorial without a single word. That's great level design

 

[Knightime_X]

Not at all.
I enjoy it quite a bit. So much that, honestly, I don't really miss game manuals all that much anymore.
Some games let you turn the tutorials off.

 

[Mayar]

If you remove tutorials from games, journalists won't be able to review them, and sometimes they can't even do it with tutorials...this video has to be there.


There's simply well-designed training that's harmoniously integrated into the game and doesn't cause rejection. And then there's poorly designed training, which is a completely different matter.

 

[winjer]

I can understand if a game has a tutorial for a new mechanic, that is somewhat unique to their game.
But when it's just basic stuff that everyone knows, then it should be made optional.

BTW, some might remember when FarCry Bloodragon made the most awesome tutorial ever.

 

[Andro Dunos]

This is where Nintendo excels with a use of organic tutorials, adding new abilities and skills and layering them across the next levels. It's a very different approach, very hard to put into words. But often you just feel its a natural part of the game progression. Not awlays mind you.

I'm replaying Metroid Prime on the switch remaster and this is something I adore. The frigate orpheon is a nice opener that eases players into every main aspect of the gameplay.

 

[Rentahamster]

No, but they can be designed well or designed badly.

 

[Humdinger]

I like the way Morrowind did it. A little tutorial to get the basic controls and a few rules down, and then a pop-up, "Ok, you're on your own now." Dozens of hours later, I was still figuring things out and discovering how things worked. That discovery was part of the fun.

Otoh, it could also be frustrating, and I don't want to be doing that in every game. If it's a simple action-adventure, I just want to get into the action. Trouble is, tutorials can drag on for hours now. That is way too long.

I understand why they did it. Playtesting showed that players often quit a game early out of frustration, because they did not understand the mechanics. They want to retain everybody. No child left behind. So everybody gets the handholding.

 

[StereoVsn]

A well designed tutorial can help players get a hold of the game. It would be good though if you could turn it off or skip it if you choose, since especially during replays Tutorials are redundant.

Edit: Elden Ring and Souls game could use a decent tutorial, IMO, but basically player resources, guides and wikis that that part. It's more immersive breaking though.

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

Annoying hand-holding tutorials is one of the clearest signs of low IQ devs.

Ideally, every mechanic should be presented as a part of the game world. Again I have to mention the mastery of Team Cherry in game design. They introduce a counter intuitive map system in the most original way without giving "external" hints from the perspective of an outsider. Silent Hill 2's map is also a good example.

For survival horror or adventure games where exploration is essential, I'd remove tutorials altogether. Let players learn through trial and error.

 

[kevboard]

every time a game has to stop and explain to you how something works in textboxes, it should be seen as a game design failure.

for some of those instances noone has found a better way to do it, so the perfect solution has yet to be found there... like when trying to make the player understand complex RPG mechanics or a very esoteric mechanic in a hack n slay.
so in those cases there's no shame in "failing", but designers should still try to maybe find a better solution eventually.

but for so many problems designers already found good solutions years, or even decades ago... and when a game insists of pausing and explaining those, that's just embarrassing.

the worst example being a platformer telling you where the jump button is. even if you didn't know, finding out which one it is will take 2 seconds of randomly pressing buttons.


one egregious example of a recent game is Ninja Gaiden 4. it pauses the game and throws up multiple text boxes when you come across the first store... even tho literally all that textboox explains is 100% self-explanatory if you just go up to the store and open the store menu.
that's just undeniably a game design failure on all fronts.

so if a game just full stops you in your tracks to explain insanely obvious stuff to you. that shows either 1 of 2 things.
1: the developers think you are dumb as a rock and need to be explained that the items menu in the shop sells you items.
or 2: the developers have so little faith in their abilities to teach you something naturally, that they use textboxes as a bandaid for their own failures.

waypoint markers are the same btw. either the devs think you're retarded when a neaely linear game has waypoint markers. or they suck at level design

 

[Brakum]

Mandatory tutorials are always garbage.

 

[justiceiro]

The only ones I hate are the ones that interrupt the gameplay to show a little video of what you supposed to do, gives a wall off text below that makes 0 sense and repeat that to every game mechanic/status interface. It breks the pace and even harder to keep track of it.

 

[jshackles]

I'm always a fan of the game (or a character in the game) asking you if you want to do the tutorial.

Forced tutorials are especially irritating when they're also given on New Game+

 

[RoboFu]

Only if they are forced Yes .. I hate forced in game tutorials. Most stuff can be figured out with in 5 mins of just playing the game. Hardly anyone takes risks these days so all games play the same anyway.

 

[Gojiira]

Depends. If its Skyward Sword and the tutorial is nearly 12 hours long of constant repetitive popups and repeating information then yes…

The best tutorials are seamless, having you do them on the fly without pausing, maybe having environmental cues or the like. Helldivers 2 is a peak example of how to do a tutorial though, Elden Ring as well where the tutorial is a fully optional starter area.

 

[DarkShadowXI]

They all have our data. Can't you see I've played 30,000 hours of JRPGs? I'm good on the 20 hours of tutorials bro!

But for real, JRPGs have become so convoluted that I do forget the mechanics when I come back to a game save months later.

I'd love a "hey you haven't played in 6 months, want a refresher?"

I do like how some modern ones include cutscenes or summaries when you need them.

 

[Dynasty8]

100% they do IMHO. Especially when they are over done. So many triple A studios overdo their tutorials to make players feel like they're completely dumb and can't figure anything out on their own.

This is why I love From Soft. Minimal tutorials, go figure shit out while you play. Play as you Learn >>> Learn to Play.

To be clear I am not saying no games should have tutorials, but developers should leave some stuff off the table for players to experience as well. Helldivers 2 did it well and went over basics pretty quickly instead of spending an obscene amount of time.

 

[Markio128]

Back then, reading the manual that came with the game was the tutorial. And it was expected that you read it. But people have lost the ability to read anything that is longer than a Twitter post.

100%. I really miss manuals. They were also great for setting the scene, introducing characters and imparting a bit of lore. You could go into the game with a fundamental understanding of the world and characters without needing to sit through scene/character introductions.

 

[Juja]

I really liked the way Warcraft 2 and Starcraft did it back in the day. They would just start you off with simple missions like building 4 farms and a barracks, and then each level would give you new things to build.

 

[Hudo]

100%. I really miss manuals. They were also great for setting the scene, introducing characters and imparting a bit of lore. You could go into the game with a fundamental understanding of the world and characters without needing to sit through scene/character introductions.

Yeah, I miss them as well.

 

[Isa]

I think so. Granted I've been gaming since the 80's on consoles, arcades and PC's, so I'm used to having to figure things out on my own, or read a manual. But having to sit through some lame ass tutorial regurgitating things I've known since gaming went 3D is often beyond frustrating but frankly insulting. I know they're trying to cater to the lowest common denominator and many games let us skip tutorials, but sweet Jesus man. I also f'ng hate overly drawn out cinematics and prologues. Its why so many FPS adventures turn me off, taking urgency away from the player and acting like its some incredible work of art when they are really just being damn lazy puppeteering npc's around in front of the uncontrollable screen.

Like another poster went off about a week ago or whatever, the intros to Cyberpunk can be annoying to rerun through. At least in all my playthroughs of Morrowind, I was off the boat and doing whatever the hell I wanted ASAP. That matters a ton and my sister and I would frequently make new characters to try out. I know some mechanics can be complicated, but there are better ways to explain it. I recently tried the Arknights Beta/Test thing and while fun at times and with pretty decent production values the intro took away control so frequently that it took me out of the game and mood to play. Which is a damn shame. I know they're proud of their work and evolution in tools and engine but Christ almighty the pacing sucks something fierce. And worst of all its absolutely nothing new that hasn't already been done before. My best friend's children could've figured it out in less than a minute. At some point its beyond insulting and frankly a waste of time, energy and resources that I would rather see spent somewhere else, which incidentally is where I'll often go spend my time.

Player retention is a thing and it baffles me that developers seemingly can't figure this out. One of the reasons so many games succeed is by getting the player into the action as quick as possible and letting them figure things out, often with friends or by fun trial and error. A sandbox almost.