Support NeoGAF

[dragonfart28]

He has a point, why shouldn't Europe be for the Europeans? immigration from the middle east and africa into Europe is a big problem.

Too bad.

We're all going to turn into some combination of brown and yellow in about 100 years, so you might as well accept it now.

 

[[Nintex]]

I have a question regarding the claim I hear pretty often about culture and how due to immigration by Muslims many European nations are losing their identity. How true is this? I ask this seriously because I don't know. I live in the US and even though Muslims make up a sizable population in this country I do not see any of the American "culture" being lost or forced to change. Yes we have Halal butchers, many more restaurants from different parts of the world, accommodations for prayer, more mosques, and you see more people in the streets in their traditional clothing. But that would account for a very small % of American life. And I see all of the above mostly in the major cities. Not much in the suburbs.

Outside of that I do not see any "cultural" change on tv, in music, certainly not politics, nor any other measure on cultural trends. How is it any different in Europe?

Failed immigration on all levels. There's a lot of bad shit going on in Syria, Syrians living in the Netherlands went to Amsterdam to protest, had security guards split up the men and women and started ranting about the west and how Islam was 'so great' in Arabic. Children who didn't speak dutch... how are they ever going to find jobs in 10/12 years time if they're already falling behind at age 6 or 8?

A quick translation of an article by a 'moderate' politician:

Unfortunately I could not understand the lyrics. My Arabic is not so good. Next to me stood a man who listened in disbelief to the speaker. He shook his head and told me that these people are very dangerous. They want a strict Islamic state in Syria and even go so far as to call the inhabitants of Syria not to vote when elections come if no party is sufficiently Islamic.

http://www.frankvandalen.nl/article/113/

We allow such extremist movements and because politicians who warn against developments such as these are called 'HITLER' as soon as they even begin to speak the real crazies like Wilders come out to play.

 

[Enosh]

We're all going to turn into some combination of brown and yellow in about 100 years, so you might as well accept it now.

I realy doubt that

 

[Stridone]

Stridone sounds like the typical hypocritical Wilders supporter. Freedom of Speech is only reserved for people who people who think like me! People who think differently don't have right to freedom of speech!

That's hilarious man, considering I vote for D66 which is pretty much the polar opposite of PVV in the dutch parliament.

http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/wilders-calls-mass-deportation-muslims

So you found an example of shitty journalism, good job!

Mr Wilders stressed that he believed that Muslims who abide by the law and conform to what he described as “our values” should be welcome to stay. However, he said he had a “clear message” to people who did not choose to return to their countries of origin on a “voluntary basis”:

“If you commit a crime, if you start thinking about jihad or sharia, then it’s very clear, we will send you away, we will send you packing, we will strip you of the Dutch or Danish nationality. Abide by the rules, you are welcome to stay, and if you don’t we will send you away the same day.”

 

[gutter_trash]

Too bad.

We're all going to turn into some combination of brown and yellow in about 100 years, so you might as well accept it now.

that already happened about 2000 or 1700 years ago

look at Southern Europe and Eastern Europe

 

[scar tissue]

"Hatemonger"? OP does not know what he's talking about. And that's coming from a dutchie who would never even consider voting for Geert Wilders. I don't like him as a politician, but his aversion towards the primitive, hatemongering religion of islam is justified.

andherewego.jpg

Spoiler

i agree with you that islam is fucking ass-backwards but nothing good ever comes of these discussions on gaf

Wilders stressed that he believed that Muslims who abide by the law and conform to what he described as “our values” should be welcome to stay. However, he said he had a “clear message” to people who did not choose to return to their countries of origin on a “voluntary basis”:

“If you commit a crime, if you start thinking about jihad or sharia, then it’s very clear, we will send you away, we will send you packing, we will strip you of the Dutch or Danish nationality. Abide by the rules, you are welcome to stay, and if you don’t we will send you away the same day.”

i dunno, that sounds pretty reasonable
behave like a decent citizen, no problems for you
behave like an asshole, we're gonna haul your ass outta this country

 

[Kabouter]

i dunno, that sounds pretty reasonable
behave like a decent citizen, no problems for you
behave like an asshole, we're gonna haul your ass outta this country

But most of those people he's talking about were born here. He's not alone in wanting criminals gone obviously, but it's ridiculous to think you're going to be kicking out your own citizens that were born in your own country. Not without a penal colony somewhere .

 

[Deku]

Wilders's position is hatemongering. I'm not going to apologize for that characterization. But now that we're talking about policy (which is great) I want to point out that as a non-European living in a successful multi-ethnic society Europeans are looking to as a model, my views are far more nuanced.

 

[effzee]

Failed immigration on all levels. There's a lot of bad shit going on in Syria, Syrians living in the Netherlands went to Amsterdam to protest, had security guards split up the men and women and started ranting about the west and how Islam was 'so great' in Arabic. Children who didn't speak dutch... how are they ever going to find jobs in 10/12 years time if they're already falling behind at age 6 or 8?

A quick translation of an article by a 'moderate' politician:

http://www.frankvandalen.nl/article/113/

Wait what are you talking about? My question was about the claim of culture and how apparently the Europeans are losing theirs. What does a protest about what is going on in Syria have to do with that? Every single group of any sort protests something at some point in time.

You mean to tell me Arab Muslims chanting about how great their religion is somehow odd? Or affecting your European culture? How? And how does that event even relate to the question about culture?

And who are these children? Did they just migrate to the country? Is not speaking Dutch a problem amongst the Muslim youth in the country? My family moved to the United States when I was 9. I knew little to no English, but now would consider it my primary language (I think in English). So I don't get how children, who might have just migrated, not speaking Dutch has anything to do with what I asked.

We allow such extremist movements and because politicians who warn against developments such as these are called 'HITLER' as soon as they even begin to speak the real crazies like Wilders come out to play.

I agree that calling anyone Hitler is insulting, BUT what extremist movement are you talking about? Syrian people protesting about what is going on in Syria? You do know the situation in Syria is very violent and turning uglier right? I fail to see how that threatens European culture.

To me this "fear" of losing identity or culture is overblown and a political tactic to ratchet up anti-immigrant feelings and borderline racist attitudes towards darker skin people. Its equivalent to states here passing anti-Sharia laws in response to a made up fear of Muslims on the verge of overthrowing the government to establish Sharia law.

Yes immigration issues exist. And Muslims, or any other group, migrating to a new country should abide by the rules of that country but I have yet to see any evidence of culture of any Western nation being in jeopardy.

Or maybe someone needs to point that out because when I turn on the tv, when I go to the theater (movies or plays), when I listen to the radio, when I go to school, when I come to work, or in any other normal part of my day I see nothing that signal impending doom for American or Western culture.

 

[Dascu]

But most of those people he's talking about were born here. He's not alone in wanting criminals gone obviously, but it's ridiculous to think you're going to be kicking out your own citizens that were born in your own country. Not without a penal colony somewhere .

Hey, that's what we do!

 

[effzee]

andherewego.jpg

Spoiler

i agree with you that islam is fucking ass-backwards but nothing good ever comes of these discussions on gaf

Why spoiler that? You are acting like Islam is off limits on GAF or protected from criticism. Just look at the front page or any past threads involving religion, especially Islam. Unless of course you want to preach about Islam without any sort of a back and forth from the Muslims on GAF or anyone who might think differently.

i dunno, that sounds pretty reasonable
behave like a decent citizen, no problems for you
behave like an asshole, we're gonna haul your ass outta this country

What if a "native" (white) person converts to Islam and then commits a crime? Do they get kicked out of the country too? And to which country? And what crimes are "allowed" in that they won't get you kicked out of the country?

 

[Kabouter]

Wait what are you talking about? My question was about the claim of culture and how apparently the Europeans are losing theirs. What does a protest about what is going on in Syria have to do with that? Every single group of any sort protests something at some point in time.

The only thing that could be argued to have eroded European culture in any recent century is the influence of that most appealing and widespread of foreign cultures, American culture.

And who are these children? Did they just migrate to the country? Is not speaking Dutch a problem amongst the Muslim youth in the country? My family moved to the United States when I was 9. I knew little to no English, but now would consider it my primary language (I think in English). So I don't get how children, who might have just migrated, not speaking Dutch has anything to do with what I asked.

Children of certain groups of non-Western immigrants, so second generation, often have trouble speaking Dutch as well as others because at home and amongst friends they largely still speak their parents' native tongue. They can of course speak Dutch, they have to to complete any level of schooling, but the insufficient level amongst many holds them back in education. It is certainly something that requires a great deal of attention, perhaps mandatory additional language lessons for anyone that is found not to have a sufficient mastery of Dutch by a certain age.

Hey, that's what we do!

Haha, I hadn't even thought of that, and it's in my city no less.

 

[Timber]

And yet if he were assassinated, Van Gogh style, people would blame HIM, and not the people who killed him.

Now that's bigotry.

This is ridiculous is so many ways.

Canada, you can keep Wilders. He's a diplomatic gift. Put him on display in a zoo or something; it's good for tourism. Like a monarchy.

 

[effzee]

The only thing that could be argued to have eroded European culture in any recent century is the influence of that most appealing and widespread of foreign cultures, American culture.


Children of certain groups of non-Western immigrants, so second generation, often have trouble speaking Dutch as well as others because at home and amongst friends they largely still speak their parents' native tongue. They can of course speak Dutch, they have to to complete any level of schooling, but the insufficient level amongst many holds them back in education. It is certainly something that requires a great deal of attention, perhaps mandatory additional language lessons for anyone that is found not to have a sufficient mastery of Dutch by a certain age.


Haha, I hadn't even thought of that, and it's in my city no less.

See now that is interesting, about language. What I find from my experience, that even if the parents are completely incapable of speaking English, their kids pick it up right away (School and friends) and balance both. That is what I do. I speak nothing by Urdu at home but speak English everywhere else. I am sure my English is not as good as it can be, but it had little to do with any reluctance to learn.

I see it more as a child development issue. If you migrate to a country at an early enough stage, you pick up the language pretty fast, and don't attach any accent to it. But that is an issue that would be useful to tackle. In American we often see politicians fired up over Spanish being so prevalent and how people have no incentive to learn English since we provide services in Spanish. But again from experience I only found that to be true for people who were born and raised to adulthood in another country and then come to the US. Their kids surely don't have any problems speaking English.

 

[SmokyDave]

No matter how you feel about Geert, you gotta respect his bouffant.

 

[Deku]

The issue is really compounded by the fact that the west is operationg in/occupying muslim countries.

That tends to inflame emotions and sentiments from those sharing those beliefs, even if they have emigrated to a progressive western society. Whether western actions are justified or not, and I don';t think we should debate that in this thread.

 

[effzee]

The issue is really compounded by the fact that the west is operationg in/occupying muslim countries.

That tends to inflame emotions and sentiments from those sharing those beliefs, even if they have emigrated to a progressive western society. Whether western actions are justified or not, and I don';t think we should debate that in this thread.

Agreed. I have seen many Arabs, Pakistanis, Indians, and other groups of Muslims that I know and hang out with who are perfectly "American" and love the country but when they see something negative going on back home it does inflame emotions. A lot of "they" attacking "us" and in those moments feeling like outsiders and not a part of this country.

 

[Wazzim]

Didn't hey took all the notes the journalists made back because he disagreed with them? Would be pretty ironic.

Btw: Canada can keep him if they want an extra candidate for the coming elections, it isn't like we need him over here.

 

[Kabouter]

See now that is interesting, about language. What I find from my experience, that even if the parents are completely incapable of speaking English, their kids pick it up right away (School and friends) and balance both. That is what I do. I speak nothing by Urdu at home but speak English everywhere else. I am sure my English is not as good as it can be, but it had little to do with any reluctance to learn.

I see it more as a child development issue. If you migrate to a country at an early enough stage, you pick up the language pretty fast, and don't attach any accent to it. But that is an issue that would be useful to tackle. In American we often see politicians fired up over Spanish being so prevalent and how people have no incentive to learn English since we provide services in Spanish. But again from experience I only found that to be true for people who were born and raised to adulthood in another country and then come to the US. Their kids surely don't have any problems speaking English.

Well, that might be the case in the United States, but it sadly isn't the case here. Dutch proficiency in general is really rather terrible these days, but it's far worse still under descendants of non-Western immigrants. I can't really offer any explanation as to why it's so different from the US.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Stridone tell us more about the primitive inferior Muslims.

 

[RustyNails]

Stridone tell us more about the primitive inferior Muslims.

.
The amount of pure hysteria from Geert Wilders defense force in this thread is astounding.

 

[Boozeroony]

.
The amount of pure hysteria from Geert Wilders defense force in this thread is astounding.

Well, I guess the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

 

[TheOddOne]

Well, I guess the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Yeah, this is true.

 

[effzee]

Stridone tell us more about the primitive inferior Muslims.

These Muslims survive on hate, fast for a month randomly, and eat lots of lamb!

 

[2San]

Well, that might be the case in the United States, but it sadly isn't the case here. Dutch proficiency in general is really rather terrible these days, but it's far worse still under descendants of non-Western immigrants. I can't really offer any explanation as to why it's so different from the US.

I think the major problem is that these kids grow up with people who can't speak proper dutch either. My parents are non-Western immigrants. I was born and raised in Amsterdam. My Dutch was terrible even though I spoke Dutch everywhere even to my parents(though they spoke a combination of Dutch and Bengali). Even my fellow white friends where terrible at Dutch. So I never learned proper Dutch, school only gets you so far. Only after moving to another town did I find out how terrible my Dutch was. Still make mistakes every now and then.

I can see Moroccan kids talking Moroccan to their friends not helping the problem. And it's not like they'll start talking Dutch, because someone else said so. People are going to talk the language they are the most comfortable in.

 

[tubgirlsplumber]

Wilders's position is hatemongering. I'm not going to apologize for that characterization. But now that we're talking about policy (which is great) I want to point out that as a non-European living in a successful multi-ethnic society Europeans are looking to as a model, my views are far more nuanced.

Which magical land is that? Because there is no such place on earth (unfortunately).

 

[Simplet]

Why is it a problem?

That is a two part question, the first is why is it deemed a problem by you, the second is why does it occur.

Would you say that it might possibly have something to do with the wealth of Europe? Are these people coming from wealthy countries, going to Europe for the weather or the cultural heritage? Or are they coming seeking oppurtunities?

Why would they seek oppurtunities? Could it be that Europe is wealthy?

Why is Europe wealthy and these countries not? Could it possibly have something to do with the brutal colonialism fostered by European countries for more than a hundred years? Colonialism that devastated economies, while Europe got fat off the proceeds of blood money?

If Europeans didn't want people coming to Europe to seek a better life, maybe they shouldn't have created the conditions for that to occur?

I would just like to point out here that it is wildly accepted among historians than in the vast majority of cases, colonialism was either a wash or a net loss for european countries (economically I mean). France for example expanded it's colonial empire the most in the second half of the 19th century, exactly the period where it fell behind Germany economically and militarly.

You can search for articles on the subject by looking for any combinations of words like "colonialism net gain", and so forth. There is also a growing consensus that colonialism brought a number of economic advantages to the countries that suffered it (not that it justifies it), and its not clear either whether it was a net gain or a net loss for them (I'm still talking economically of course).

 

[Deku]

Which magical land is that? Because there is no such place on earth (unfortunately).

It was a bit tongue in cheek but Canada integrate its immigrants differently and at least haven't had the kind of problems seem in Europe.

 

[Prine]

Here's hoping his son/daughter converts to Islam and gets out the prayer mat as he writes his tripe in his study.

:Thumbsup

Who are you and why are you quoting me?

I was replying to badcrumble's post ... not you and definitely not book banning.

However since you bring that up, Muslims don't seem to give a shit that the bible is banned in numerous Islamic countries ...

Until they stand up in their own countries, their own mosques and their own homes for these very ideals of free speech, equality and tolerance ... people like Geert Wilders will continue to garner support.

Did you happen to miss multiple revolutions taking place through the year? You think muslims from these countries believe their leaders represent Islam? They dont. They represent themselves.

Besides, western muslims shouldn't apologize for a nation or culture they dont belong to. Theoretically banning the bible is unislamic, so i dont know how your forming your association here.

 

[RustyNails]

Well, I guess the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Really? Do you believe whenever there's hysteria, truth is always halfway down the road? Where was the truth in the Communism hysteria of the 50s? Could it be entirely possible that Geert is nothing but a full blown bigot and a total media attention whore? Earth shattering, I know.

 

[Kabouter]

Here's hoping his son/daughter converts to Islam and gets out the prayer mat as he writes his tripe in his study.

:Thumbsup

Well, he has no children, which is probably a good thing considering this:

Wilders is said to have been "deprived... of a personal life for his... hatred of Islam". He is moved by his state-provided bodyguards to a different location every night, and does not receive visitors unless they are carefully screened and escorted at all times. He is married to a former diplomat of Hungarian origin, with whom he can only meet about once every week because of security concerns. The restrictions on his life because of this, he said, are "a situation that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy".

 

[Deleted member 1235]

karma is about the closest thing to a religious principle I believe in and it sounds like wilders is getting a large helping of it. Bravo.

Well, that might be the case in the United States, but it sadly isn't the case here. Dutch proficiency in general is really rather terrible these days, but it's far worse still under descendants of non-Western immigrants. I can't really offer any explanation as to why it's so different from the US.

Can't agree really here, mainly cause I'm a white immigrant and every single white immigrant to holland that I've ever met speaks absolutely shit dutch and just gets by on english (since the dutch are so good at it). I live in Amsterdam though and this is somewhat of an exception to the rule perhaps.

 

[markot]

Ever wonder why you can only monger hate and fish >_>?

 

[OttomanScribe]

Fascism is a radical, authoritarian nationalist political ideology.[1][2] Fascists advocate the creation of a totalitarian single-party state that seeks the mass mobilization of a nation through indoctrination, physical education, and family policy including eugenics.[3] Fascists seek to purge forces and ideas deemed to be the cause of decadence and degeneration and produce their nation's rebirth based on commitment to the national community based on organic unity where individuals are bound together by suprapersonal connections of ancestry, culture, and "blood".[4] Fascists believe that a nation requires strong leadership, singular collective identity, and the will and ability to commit violence and wage war in order to keep the nation strong.[5] Fascist governments forbid and suppress opposition to the state

Geert Wilders party is a radical, oftentimes authoritarian nationalist political ideology. They advocate the creation of a single culture state and are happy to employ indoctrination, physical education (boot camps) and ethnic selection. They seek to purge forces and ideas deemed to be against decadence and degeneration (jokes kinda on the degeneration one) and produce their nation's rebirth based on commitment to the national community based upon cultural unity where individuals are bound together by connections of culture, ideology and 'birth'. They believe that their nation requires strong leadership, a singular, collective identity and the will and ability to commit violence and wage war in order to attack opposing ideologies. They advocate the suppression of opposition to this cultural project.

So really. All comparisons will not be absolutely apt, but I can certainly see links one can draw.

Irony.

One can discuss the nuances of that fact, but the reality of it I believe is relatively unrefuted in historiography, there are disputes about the way this came about and many other things, but the core of it is largely not in dispute.

One can say that the current wealth of Europe has as much to do with falling under America's sphere of influence in a big way following the devestation of World War 2, but considering that wealth is essentially from a former colony, one can always find links.

I would just like to point out here that it is wildly accepted among historians than in the vast majority of cases, colonialism was either a wash or a net loss for european countries (economically I mean). France for example expanded it's colonial empire the most in the second half of the 19th century, exactly the period where it fell behind Germany economically and militarly.

You can search for articles on the subject by looking for any combinations of words like "colonialism net gain", and so forth. There is also a growing consensus that colonialism brought a number of economic advantages to the countries that suffered it (not that it justifies it), and its not clear either whether it was a net gain or a net loss for them (I'm still talking economically of course).

This is not my experience of the literature, maybe you could link me to some prominent thinkers? In an economic sense, in many cases there was very little actual investement made by colonial states in their empires, at least in the broad sense. The payment for development was garnered often exclusively from the local economies.

You are talking about the Second French Empire yeah? In terms of expansion into Africa and Asia? I am extremely doubtful that the defeat of the French at the hands of the Prussians had anything to do with an economic disadvantage rendered by colonialism. I am open to being presented with evidence to the contrary though.

Would you say that Britain, as the most succesful European Empire, did not economically benefit from its extensive holdings in India and the Americas? I would think this would be a very difficult argument to make. Similarly the famous wealth of the Dutch is a similar case.

The Spanish are probably an arguable exception in some ways, as the cost of maintaining their empire was on the shoulders of their rule, however the profits were often sent in foreign debt.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Did you happen to miss multiple revolutions taking place through the year? You think muslims from these countries believe their leaders represent Islam? They dont. They represent themselves.

Besides, western muslims shouldn't apologize for a nation or culture they dont belong to. Theoretically banning the bible is unislamic, so i dont know how your forming your association here.

Not to mention that as far as I know, the bible is not banned in any Muslim country.

 

[BocoDragon]

It was a bit tongue in cheek but Canada integrate its immigrants differently and at least haven't had the kind of problems seem in Europe.

It's true.

We don't have the same issues with Islamic immigration that we see debated over in Europe.

Maybe it's right around the corner, maybe it will never happen.... but certainly, the only ones receptive to an Islamophobic message in Canada now are on the fringe: Athiests and Christians worried about the boogeyman... no tangible worries about integration or whatever.

 

[Kabouter]

Can't agree really here, mainly cause I'm a white immigrant and every single white immigrant to holland that I've ever met speaks absolutely shit dutch and just gets by on english (since the dutch are so good at it). I live in Amsterdam though and this is somewhat of an exception to the rule perhaps.

Oh, I was speaking of second generation and beyond. First generation, well, that's never going to be as good as native Dutch is it? I don't have the illusion that if I were to move to, say, Germany, my German would ever be as good as that of a native.

Geert Wilders party is a radical, oftentimes authoritarian nationalist political ideology. They advocate the creation of a single culture state and are happy to employ indoctrination, physical education (boot camps) and ethnic selection. They seek to purge forces and ideas deemed to be against decadence and degeneration (jokes kinda on the degeneration one) and produce their nation's rebirth based on commitment to the national community based upon cultural unity where individuals are bound together by connections of culture, ideology and 'birth'. They believe that their nation requires strong leadership, a singular, collective identity and the will and ability to commit violence and wage war in order to attack opposing ideologies. They advocate the suppression of opposition to this cultural project.

So really. All comparisons will not be absolutely apt, but I can certainly see links one can draw.

That paragraph just comes across as really wanting to make the connection, and then trying, rather unsuccessfully, to make the facts fit. Really, I think comparisons of a democratic populist movement to that of ideologies that caused the deaths of millions is rather offensive to those who suffered at the hands of fascism and its offshoots.

 

[Chuckie]

Ever wonder why you can only monger hate and fish >_>?

And war.

 

[markot]

And fear! thats 4 >.<

 

[OttomanScribe]

That paragraph just comes across as really wanting to make the connection, and then trying, rather unsuccessfully, to make the facts fit. Really, I think comparisons of a democratic populist movement to that of ideologies that caused the deaths of millions is rather offensive to those who suffered at the hands of fascism and its offshoots.

I think the comparison remains apt. The goals of the party, at least the way they express them, are totalitarian. They are about a single culture state, and advocate the use of violence, expulsion and the registration of ethnic groups. Democratic populism and fascism are not incompatible, the dictatorship of the mob can take on a similar form to fascism, or can lead to it.

I think your second point is rather strange. Fascism has had an inter-generational effect in my family, and I think in general, any person who had suffered under totalitarian measures would be wary of the kind of things that are proposed by the party in question. Of course the fact that such a thing may cause offence would make no difference to its apporpriateness as a comparison.

I mean their party program states that the eradication of Islam should be the primary target of Dutch foreign policy.

 

[jorma]

And fear! thats 4 >.<

fear, war, hate, fish

I wonder what happens when arguments get heated at a a mongerers guild meeting.

 

[GroteSmurf]

Canada, you can keep Wilders. He's a diplomatic gift. Put him on display in a zoo or something; it's good for tourism. Like a monarchy.

And a lot cheaper. Only a 7 man security detail

 

[Antagon]

I'm not seeing it. Moderate muslims can still live the way they always have. He's trying to curb the spread of Islamic culture in the Netherlands, and rightfully so, even though I don't agree with all his methods.

Yet he and/or his party wants to ban the Koran, tax women for wearing headscarves, ban anyone from wearing headscarves in government funded places (including busses and yes, not only for employees), ban building mosques, ban Muslim oriented schools (and yet allow them for any other religion) and say that Moroccans are trying to colonize the Netherlands?

 

[Simplet]

This is not my experience of the literature, maybe you could link me to some prominent thinkers? In an economic sense, in many cases there was very little actual investement made by colonial states in their empires, at least in the broad sense. The payment for development was garnered often exclusively from the local economies.

You are talking about the Second French Empire yeah? In terms of expansion into Africa and Asia? I am extremely doubtful that the defeat of the French at the hands of the Prussians had anything to do with an economic disadvantage rendered by colonialism. I am open to being presented with evidence to the contrary though.

Would you say that Britain, as the most succesful European Empire, did not economically benefit from its extensive holdings in India and the Americas? I would think this would be a very difficult argument to make. Similarly the famous wealth of the Dutch is a similar case.

The Spanish are probably an arguable exception in some ways, as the cost of maintaining their empire was on the shoulders of their rule, however the profits were often sent in foreign debt.

I found this pretty good overview of the subject, it has a big bibliography too :

http://www.oup.com/us/pdf/economic.history/imperialism.pdf

 

[mcrae]

I'd pay $500 to see a no holds barred cage match between Anjem Choudhary and Geert Wilders.

the cmeaning behind 'no holds barred just suck in for me. a fight where no types of holds are disallowed, ya? ive heard the phrase used for yeaaaaaars obviously, and never thought about it in a sense other than synonymous with 'extremely intense'

im 23.

why did this happen in a thread about a dutch mp. oh life, you so silly.

 

[OttomanScribe]

I found this pretty good overview of the subject, it has a big bibliography too :

http://www.oup.com/us/pdf/economic.history/imperialism.pdf

That article was interesting, though it didn't seem to support your claims beyond the argument that it is certainly questionable how much early modern empires benefitted (as I mentioned with Spain). It seemed to be arguing the line that in general there is some discussion on the full extent of such economic benefit, but it was certainly not definitive.

The article put forth that in a number of cases economies benefitted from Imperialism, notably;

Recently, Kenneth Pomeranz (2000) has reemphasized
the importance of empire to the eighteenth-century British
economy. He argues that what finally enabled Great
Britain (and, by extension, the West as a whole during the
nineteenth century) to industrialize when China did not
was that whereas Chinese growth ran into diminishing returns
caused by a shortage of land and fuel, the British
took advantage not only of their own coal but of the availability—
thanks to colonialism—of North American natural
resources. Thus, if the British economy escaped an ecological
bottleneck, an essential contribution was made by
cheap fuel and food from across the Atlantic, as well as by
cheaper raw material for textiles, thanks to the combination
of American land and African slaves.

The contribution of formal colonialism without demographic
takeover to the “metropolitan” economies has
been similarly controversial. The Dutch economy derived
major benefit from its territorial empire in the nineteenth
century following the establishment, from around 1830, of
the Cultivation System, under which Javanese were forced
to grow selected export crops on a large scale. In the heyday
of the system, the 1850s and 1860s, the financial surplus
from the Dutch East Indies constituted more than 30
percent of Dutch public revenue; but the system was dismantled
during the late nineteenth century under domestic
criticism (Brown, 1997). The French economy appears
to have benefited, though relatively modestly, from
colonies in Algeria and Indochina, though not necessarily
from France’s sub-Saharan possessions before 1945. The
Portuguese economy arguably obtained net gains in the
1930s–1950s from more systematic exploitation under the
Salazar regime—before the gains were swallowed by the
costs of fighting independence movements. Part of the
problem for European empires is said to have been that
possession of “captive” markets deflected metropolitan
firms from the central task of adapting to remain competitive
with the new industrial leaders, including those with
relatively minimal colonial empires—the United States
and Germany.

Ironically, Great Britain’s colonies in tropical Africa
made their most valuable contributions to the imperial
current account within what turned out to be the last
twenty years of colonial rule, as commodities such as West
African cocoa earned dollars that the metropolitan economy
desperately needed. Malayan rubber was of diminishing
importance in this respect in the late 1940s, as U.S.
purchases of natural rubber declined. Crucially, there was
a broader trend in the mid-twentieth century, rooted in
changes within the Western economies, for European
countries to trade even more among themselves and with
other industrialized economies, while commercial links
with remaining or recent colonies relatively declined
(Marseille, 1984; Lipietz, 1983)

I found a few glaring problems though, not least the assertion that the British reliance on Free Trade meant little economic benefit. A strange argument indeed considering the British selective use of things like Free Trade as a justification for what was really the forceful breaking open of trade barriers.

Who was the author?

I am currently reading these two excellent books;
http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/After-Tamerlane-John-Darwin/9780141010229
and
http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/Empires-World-History-Jane-Burbank/9780691127088

In terms of a general narrative and the emergin historiography of empire, they are unrivalled.

 

[Vagabundo]

Geert Wilders, who is taking part in a cross-Canada speaking tour hosted by the International Free Press Society and the Canada Christian College, is infamous for his descriptions of Islam as a fascist religion, his declaration that Muslim youth are violent and his calls for a ban of the Koran.

lol

 

[Vagabundo]

Ever wonder why you can only monger hate and fish >_>?

Whoremonger.

 

[Osietra]

Ironmonger.