Dutch look at weeding out cannabis cafés

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Ripclawe

Banned
:(
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2cc0e802-d2fb-11df-9ae9-00144feabdc0.html

Coffee shops legally selling cannabis have been a feature of Amsterdam’s streets for more than 30 years, both a magnet for younger tourists and a symbol of the Dutch brand of liberal exceptionalism.

But the fragrant haze found in the city’s 200 or so establishments could be dispersed under plans by the incoming government, which is looking to roll back the “tolerance policy” that has allowed such coffee shops to operate since 1976.

Coinciding with a tightening of laws around prostitution – another tolerated industry – the authorities’ new stance on cannabis is raising questions as to whether Dutch society is moving away from laisser-faire traditions, which have included some of the earliest gay-friendly policies in Europe and the provision of free contraception to teenage girls.

Certainly the outlook for coffee shops is bleak. Among the few policies that the three parties in the new coalition agree upon is the need to cut back on, if not entirely abolish, coffee shops. The governing agreement released last week laid out plans that will force them to become member-only clubs and shut down those located within 350 metres of schools.

They are also advancing the idea of prohibiting the sale of cannabis to non-Dutch residents, which amounts to a death knell for many coffee shops, particularly in Amsterdam, the Netherlands’ biggest city.

“It’s a head-on attack,” says Gerrit Jan ten Bloemendal, vice-chairman of the Netherlands Cannabis Platform, a lobby group opposing the proposal, and himself a coffee-shop operator.


The coffee-shop crackdown comes as part of a broader law-and-order drive promoted in particular by Geert Wilders, the anti-Islam firebrand whose far-right Freedom Party (PVV) made the biggest gains in the June elections. Though the PVV is not formally part of the incoming coalition, it helped draft parts of the legislative programme as part of a deal to support the government.

The new stance comes after years of gradual tightening of the rules governing cannabis sales and a 2007 ban on the selling of alcohol in the coffee shops. After proliferating in the 1980s and early 1990s, their number in the Netherlands has halved from a peak of 1,400 in 1995 to just over 700 today.

“For sure, if the reforms go through it will impact business,” says Maciej Truszkowski, owner of the Sevilla coffee shop, a small, dimly lit venue just off one of Amsterdam’s concentric canals. There are no displays of hemp leaves or any other sign that cannabis is for sale, in line with strict advertising rules, though multiple portraits of Bob Marley hint at Sevilla’s core business.

On a quiet weekday lunchtime recently, a couple of locals walked in to the Sevilla and asked for a cannabis menu. But British and US university students made up the bulk of the clientele. According to Mr Truszkowski, foreigners provide half his business, a figure he thinks is much higher for coffee shops nearer the red-light district, a 10-minute walk away.

Mr Truszkowski argues that if he cannot sell cannabis to foreigners, someone else will. “Even without coffee shops, Amsterdam will be known for its cannabis. One way or another, the business will go on.”

The more stringent legislative tack being embarked on echoes a tightening of rules around the sex industry and measures to halve the size of Amsterdam’s red-light district.

For Paul Schnabel, director of the Social and Cultural Planning Office, a state advisory board, the move reflects a growing view that the tolerance policies have not achieved their aims of controlling the ills associated with drugs and prostitution, rather than a recasting of Dutch liberalism.

“There’s a strong tendency in Dutch society to control things by allowing them. It’s always been there, a pragmatic tradition, typical of a trading nation. We look for better alternatives to problems that we know exist anyway,” he explains.

But, he adds, “Dutch society is less willing to tolerate than before. Perhaps 30 years ago we were a more easy-going society.”


The equation that led to the policy of tolerance has changed in the past decade, as large-scale crime around both coffee shops and the legal sex trade became more visible. In particular, the absence of legal means for coffee shops to acquire the cannabis they sell has highlighted its association with organised criminality.

But the open-minded instincts that helped foster the tolerance policies in the first place have also come to be questioned. And it is not just the far-right that is opposing coffee shops. The traditional parties of power on the centre-right, the Christian Democrats and the Liberal VVD party, have also moved against the tolerance policies they once promoted.

“Definitely there has been a moralisation of the state in recent years, and that has contributed to the coalition’s stance on coffee shops,” says André Krouwel, a political scientist at the Free University in Amsterdam.

“The liberal consensus that helped create those policies – that’s gone now. The pragmatism has been replaced by increasingly moral politics, in a way which is reminiscent of what happened in the United States with the ‘moral majority’ in the 1980s.”

Coffee-shop owners, meanwhile, hope that local officials will continue the tolerance policies even in the face of central government pressure, or that any new law will be repealed by a more liberal government before being implemented. But at the very least, another dramatic reduction in the number of authorised outlets is seen as inevitable.
 
If I recall correctly, it's technically illegal to sell weed, right? It's just an agreement the government has - restrict it to coffee shops and you won't be bothered?

Anyway, I think I need to book a holiday to Amsterdam within the next five years incase such plans go through.
 
“The liberal consensus that helped create those policies – that’s gone now. The pragmatism has been replaced by increasingly moral politics, in a way which is reminiscent of what happened in the United States with the ‘moral majority’ in the 1980s.”

Ugh.
 
Ripclawe said:
...the move reflects a growing view that the tolerance policies have not achieved their aims of controlling the ills associated with drugs and prostitution...
B-b-b-b-b-b-but they told me legalization solves everything.
 
Mr Truszkowski argues that if he cannot sell cannabis to foreigners, someone else will. “Even without coffee shops, Amsterdam will be known for its cannabis. One way or another, the business will go on
Pretty much. You'd think the Dutch government would know this.
 
About fucking time.
Innocent people are dying around the world so punks can smoke pot. Either the Dutch government start growing their own cannabis to sell the the legal coffee shops or they close these places, as they support a lot of criminal activities in poor countries.
 
toxicgonzo said:
B-b-b-b-b-b-but they told me legalization solves everything.

I assume you didn't read the article:

In particular, the absence of legal means for coffee shops to acquire the cannabis they sell has highlighted its association with organised criminality.

It isn't really legal there it's just tolerated and decriminalized in certain areas.
 
Fio said:
About fucking time.
Innocent people are dying around the world so punks can smoke pot. Either the Dutch government start growing their own cannabis to sell the the legal coffee shops or they close these places, as they support a lot of criminal activities in poor countries.
Most weed is Dutch I think and it to call everyone who smokes pot a punk is very narrowminded. And they should just legalize and control it, so there are rules about things like quality, have clarity on the growers and how they operate and the government get tax from it.

edit:

B-b-b-b-b-b-but they told me legalization solves everything.
It isn't legalized. That's why the production is still related to criminals.
 
Funny that they would reference the US on these matters, considering that the criminalization of drugs and prostitution in this country has done nothing to curb the "ills" associated with them, yet managed to create new "ills" such as an increasingly overburdened justice system and prisons overflowing with non-violent offenders.
 
Yeah our new government has a plan to make Coffeeshops private clubs for which you need a membership. It will only be possible for Dutch citizens to become members.

So maybe if this gets through I should quit my job and become a buy weed for tourists guy!


I understand that there are problems with mostly French coffeeshop tourists in towns near our border but here in Amsterdam we have no real problems from tourists because of the coffeeshops.

In the end it's just the conservative CDA party that's for a long time trying to ban coffeeshops. They finally have the opportunity because the liberal VVD party needed support to make their right wing government and Geert Wilders PVV is pretty conservative as well.
 
Yeah, banning it will make it go away. Especially criminal activities.

Jesus, where to begin......

Green Scar said:
Anyone else read thread title as 'Dutch make wedding cannabis cake'?

no, but i'm pretty certain that has been done a couple of times.
 
toxicgonzo said:
B-b-b-b-b-b-but they told me legalization solves everything.

In particular, the absence of legal means for coffee shops to acquire the cannabis they sell has highlighted its association with organised criminality.

Read beyond the bolded before saying smart ass remarks.
 
Fio said:
Innocent people are dying around the world so punks can smoke pot. Either the Dutch government start growing their own cannabis to sell the the legal coffee shops or they close these places, as they support a lot of criminal activities in poor countries.

I thought most of it would have been grown hydroponically in the Nederlands.
 
Fio said:
About fucking time.
Innocent people are dying around the world so punks can smoke pot. Either the Dutch government start growing their own cannabis to sell the the legal coffee shops or they close these places, as they support a lot of criminal activities in poor countries.

you consider Belgium a poor country ? :D

Anyway living near the border I do think that the whole legalization of cannabis might have had some unintended consequences (loads of drug tourism from surrounding countries, resulting in highly aggressive/criminal sales tactics used by some to undermine the "legal" and thus more expensive coffee shops which leads to an increase in crime instead of the implied decrease and so on)

The problem is that the traffic is not gonna stop unless we completely outlaw it (again), which seems a bit drastic as well

Control on a city basis however is hard as well, as they all want to move their drug related issues to the next town leading to disputes among neighboring cities (and their friends across the border). So on the other hand some legal restrictions that apply to the entire country could definitely help (provided they are effective restrictions...)
 
Fio said:
About fucking time.
Innocent people are dying around the world so punks can smoke pot. Either the Dutch government start growing their own cannabis to sell the the legal coffee shops or they close these places, as they support a lot of criminal activities in poor countries.
How incredibly ignorant. Pot is mostly grown indoors here in our own country. Still illegal tho, so they get harassed by people following a retarded law set up by ignorant fools.

If tomatoes were illegal, people buying them would support criminals. Doesn't even matter if it's legal or not, a large percentage of legal goods is being created under criminal circumstances, by criminals etc.

So in short, this argument has nothing to do with if weed should be legal or not.
Scratch that, it's an argument in favor of legalization, since there wouldn't be any need for people willing to perform criminal actions to provide if it were legal.
 
msv said:
How incredibly ignorant. Pot is mostly grown indoors here in our own country. Still illegal tho, so they get harassed by people following a retarded law set up by ignorant fools.

If tomatoes were illegal, people buying them would support criminals. Doesn't even matter if it's legal or not, a large percentage of legal goods is being created under criminal circumstances, by criminals etc.

So in short, this argument has nothing to do with if weed should be legal or not.
this
 
I would imagine they get the bottom of the barrel in tourists. Broke college kids looking to get high and ex-hippies passing through.
 
ToxicAdam said:
I would imagine they get the bottom of the barrel in tourists. Broke college kids looking to get high and ex-hippies passing through.

That's still enough to make a living on compared to nothing.
 
The cabinet is definitely looking to do something about the wrong 'moral' issue. I don't think marijuana is such a major issue, there is some crime associated with drug tourism, but it's relatively minor. Most of the crime surrounding the trade is in illegally growing (both in the Netherlands and neighbouring countries) the stuff. And that's easily remedied by legalizing and regulating it.

What is a major problem however is prostitution. A huge percentage of prostitutes in the country, and in particular in Amsterdam, are there against their will. Amsterdam did make some moves to handle the issue, but it's not nearly enough. The fact of the matter is that the government basically tolerates slavery. I'm not saying prostitution should be made illegal, but the government should police the sex industry far more.
 
Seems the dutch government has really been clamping down on everything that makes Amsterdam great. (what's a rembrand?) I'm just glad I visited the place before this shit went down (shrooms becoming illegal, closing down parts of the RLD, and now this).
 
msv said:
How incredibly ignorant. Pot is mostly grown indoors here in our own country. Still illegal tho, so they get harassed by people following a retarded law set up by ignorant fools.

If tomatoes were illegal, people buying them would support criminals. Doesn't even matter if it's legal or not, a large percentage of legal goods is being created under criminal circumstances, by criminals etc.

So in short, this argument has nothing to do with if weed should be legal or not.
Scratch that, it's an argument in favor of legalization, since there wouldn't be any need for people willing to perform criminal actions to provide if it were legal.

So if you want something to be legal you just break the law to make your point, regardless of the consequences? Last time I checked The Netherlands is a democracy and you know, there are legal measures you can take in a democracy to have something legalized. How about supporting politicians who are in favor of legalization? How about supporting organizations which support legalization? These are decent and honest ways to push your views in a democracy, supporting activities that kill innocent people is not.

And the fact that some of the weed is grown there doesn't change anything, because whoever is growing it have to engage in money laundering activities, which is related to a lot of other criminal activities.
 
Fio said:
So if you want something to be legal you just break the law to make your point, regardless of the consequences? Last time I checked The Netherlands is a democracy and you know, there are legal measures you can take in a democracy to have something legalized. How about supporting politicians who are in favor of legalization? How about supporting organizations which support legalization? These are decent and honest ways to push your views in a democracy, supporting activities that kill innocent people is not.

And the fact that some of the weed is grown there doesn't change anything, because whoever is growing it have to engage in money laundering activities, which is related to a lot of other criminal activities.

Ever heard of civil disobedience? Breaking the law to make a point is one of the cornerstones of modern political movements. People dying as a result of weed smoking falls as much or more on the heads of those entities that made weed illegal and which fight to keep it illegal (thus creating the criminal activity in the first place) as it does on the consumers.
 
Fio said:
So if you want something to be legal you just break the law to make your point, regardless of the consequences? Last time I checked The Netherlands is a democracy and you know, there are legal measures you can take in a democracy to have something legalized. How about supporting politicians who are in favor of legalization? How about supporting organizations which support legalization? These are decent and honest ways to push your views in a democracy, supporting activities that kill innocent people is not.

And the fact that some of the weed is grown there doesn't change anything, because whoever is growing it have to engage in money laundering activities, which is related to a lot of other criminal activities.
And you think that by making it illegal will magically change this, I don't think so. It will make it all the more prevalent.
 
I love how retarded conservative voting has come back to bite all of us Europeans in the ass.
I'm just enjoying this right now.
 
fuck you wilders you freedom hating cunt. Partij voor de vrijheid my BAALLLS.

Kabouter said:
The cabinet is definitely looking to do something about the wrong 'moral' issue. I don't think marijuana is such a major issue, there is some crime associated with drug tourism, but it's relatively minor. Most of the crime surrounding the trade is in illegally growing (both in the Netherlands and neighbouring countries) the stuff. And that's easily remedied by legalizing and regulating it.

What is a major problem however is prostitution. A huge percentage of prostitutes in the country, and in particular in Amsterdam, are there against their will. Amsterdam did make some moves to handle the issue, but it's not nearly enough. The fact of the matter is that the government basically tolerates slavery. I'm not saying prostitution should be made illegal, but the government should police the sex industry far more.

the more i read your posts the more I think you should just be in dutch government.

Seems the dutch government has really been clamping down on everything that makes Amsterdam great. (what's a rembrand?) I'm just glad I visited the place before this shit went down (shrooms becoming illegal, closing down parts of the RLD, and now this).

this isn't quite right. the mushrooms are gone but they quickly switched to selling magic truffles which are the exact same stuff, nothing in the RLD closed down, they just did a crackdown on the crime going on there, some windows now have 'red light fashion' in them instead of hookers, but lately it seems like it's as big as it ever was.

This won't pass, Netherlands won't throw away a billion euros a year (I think it's a billion).
 
never gonna happen
legal weed put amsterdam/holland on the map worldwide

pretty much every international person who likes weed knows what amsterdam is and wants to go check it out someday
you cannot buy that kinda advertising
 
Fio said:
And the fact that some of the weed is grown there doesn't change anything, because whoever is growing it have to engage in money laundering activities, which is related to a lot of other criminal activities.

That will be the same or worse.
It will be a step back.
 
MrHicks said:
never gonna happen
legal weed put amsterdam/holland on the map worldwide

pretty much every international person who likes weed knows what amsterdam is and wants to go check it out someday
you cannot buy that kinda advertising

The worlds educational problems are more serious than I thought if people only know about Holland because of weed.
 
Pickles the Firecat said:
The worlds educational problems are more serious than I thought if people only know about Holland because of weed.

Don't forget legal prostitution.
And sadly, yes that is what we are know about overseas.
 
Enosh said:
Well it's happening all over europe.
We've gotten yet another christian party into the Swedish parliament, as if the other one wasn't enough, and you can bet your ass on that they'll vote against anything even mentioning gays and their rights.
 
Kabouter said:
Yes, before then, nobody had heard of Amsterdam or the Netherlands.

thats totally what i said
let me put it this way

because of legal weed more people in the world know/care about holland then otherwise would be the case
 
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