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[Xando]

Thought this was a interesting piece in response to yesterdays events:

TO VIEW the footage of crowds in Charlottesville yelling Nazi slogans and flying Swastika banners is troubling anywhere. But do so from Berlin is particularly so. America in 2017 is not Germany in 1933. But the chants about “blood and soil”, the flaming torches, the Nazi salutes, the thuggery and violence turned on objectors–the whole furious display of armed ethno-nationalism–are nonetheless chillingly evocative. Similarly so is the strenuous ambivalence about it all from Donald Trump and some of his media cheerleaders. It could hardly contrast more vividly with how things are done here: Germany is a case study in how not to give an inch to the dark politics of “Blut und Boden”.

That begins with the significance placed on remembering where this led in the past. Every German school child must visit a concentration camp; as essential a part of the curriculum as learning to write or count. The country's cities are landscapes of remembrance. Streets and squares are named after resisters. Little brass plaques in the pavements (Stolpersteine, or stumbling stones) contain the names and details of Holocaust victims who once lived at those addresses. Memorials dot the streets: plaques commemorating specific persecuted groups, boards listing the names of concentration camps (“places of horror which we must never forget”), a giant field of grey pillars in central Berlin attesting to the Holocaust.

The murky interstitial terrain–the Trump Zone you might call it–between the conservative mainstream and categorically far-right movements like PEGIDA, an anti-Islam group, and the extremist NPD party is broadly off-limits. Relativisation, endorsement by hint or omission, far-right symbols as “irony”, dog-whistle prevarications and creeping extenuation are rarely tolerated. Take the Alternative for Germany [AfD], an Eurosceptic-turned-nationalist party, some of whose more moderate figures would comfortably fit into America's Republican or Britain's Conservative parties but which is now entirely toxic thanks to revisionist figures on its right like Björn Höcke, its leader in Thuringia who has challenged Germany's remembrance culture.

The line between the acceptable and unacceptable, in other words, is stark. Angela Merkel has said Germany's very future depends on it continually understanding the Holocaust as “the ultimate betrayal of civilised values”. When Benjamin Netanyahu suggested that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem had suggested exterminating the Jewish people to Hitler, she politely but firmly corrected him: “Germany abides by its responsibility for the Holocaust.” Martin Schulz, her rival in next month’s election, often thunders: “The AfD is not an ‘alternative for Germany’ but a disgrace for Germany!”

Commentators and politicians guard this boundary carefully, for example by eschewing the register and language of the far right. They tend not to brand critics and opponents “traitors”, “saboteurs” or the like. Migrants are rarely denominated in “swarms” or “floods”. The Bild Zeitung, a right-wing tabloid and Germany's most-read paper, has criticised elements of the government's handling of the refugee crisis. But it proudly stands up for the principle of welcoming foreigners in need; in 2015 its then editor-in-chief even pointedly took in refugees to his home. The result is a decidedly sober and unemotional style of public debate less prone than that of other countries to grandstanding or furious invective. The Berlin terror attack in December was reported factually and without panic; frothing reactions in the Anglo-Saxon press (and on Mr Trump's Twitter feed) contrasting with the stoical mood here.

Free speech is upheld: marches by PEGIDA and sometimes even leafleting events by nationalist politicians receive police protection. But this right to expression remains firmly distinguished from a right to publicity or acceptance. When Mr Höcke unfurled a German flag on a talk show to mark “1000 years of Germany” (a phrase with Nazi associations), fellow guests from right and left branded him “disgusting”. Far-right movements are treated overwhelmingly as cultural phenomena rather than–as is sometimes the case in France, Britain and America–mere expressions of socio-economic dislocation. Finis Germania, a recently-published book claiming that German identity is being dismantled, has been excised from some bestseller lists. One can believe that this hyper-cautious editorial style sometimes goes too far, as I do in that case of the bestseller lists, while admiring the underlying determination to allow no slippage or normalisation.

Germany, of course, carries a unique historical burden. But every country has dark periods in its national past and far-right revisionists in its political present. The Charlottesville protests, marching under Confederate flags against plans to remove Confederate statues, are a distinctively American reminder of that (indeed, the Nazis were inspired by Jim Crow laws and studied segregation as a possible model for German society). Countries without Holocausts on their history books can also learn from Germany's grown-up, vigilant and dutiful culture of remembrance. In America that may mean removing Confederate symbols from public spaces; Jim Grey, the mayor of Lexington, has announced plans to accelerate this in his city. It means unambiguously declaring the Charlottesville protesters beyond the pale (while defending their right to protest peacefully). And it means calling out Mr Trump's equivocal statements for what they are: a moral abomination.

https://www.economist.com/blogs/kaffeeklatsch/2017/08/charlottesville-context

 

[dan2026]

America is so fucked up at this point I don't know what can save it.
All logic and common sense has long since left the building.

 

[CHC]

America is so fucked up at this point I don't know what can save it.
All logic and common sense has long since left the building.

It's too late now, for the generations indoctrinated into this racist shit. But what Germany did with Nazism is what we should have done with the Confederacy. Utter obliteration followed by honest, painful lessons about its atrocities.

Fringe support will always be inevitable among some nut jobs but America has enabled a culture of "alternative" acceptance for the outcome of the Civil War by sanitizing the evil of the South. We're now grappling with the results.

When the Confederate flag is normalized and the Civil War is treated like some kind of historical team sport, people will go to any lengths to defend what they come to see as an inherent part of their culture and upbringing.

 

[Glass Rebel]

I always took this for granted and almost a bit overdone from our neighbours but the recent months have shown what the alternative would be. I gladly take no Swastikas in Wolfenstein over Charlotteville.

 

[Atolm]

You know what's the real funny thing about this? It was the US and UK designed De-Nazification program that the one that led to this. Trials were held. Symbols were forbidden. Laws were written. Extermination camps were and are purposefully preserved. Germans probably couldn't have done it all by themselves.

And now both the US and the UK are falling to those same fascist schemes and propaganda they helped to eradicate in the first place.

I know that GAF is a liberal place with little tolerance for fascists or bigots, but dear Americans, if you ever have a family member or a friend that defends that crap, please remember them politely, but bluntly, that hundreds of thousands of Americans died in the fight against fascism, in Europe and the Pacific.

 

[Renekton]

My country is 100% blood-and-soil politics. Prominent politicians rose up by threatening to spill minority blood.

 

[crack-king]

Every German school child must visit a concentration camp; as essential a part of the curriculum as learning to write or count.

This is not true. I never had to visit a concentration camp. My girlfriend neither and I honestly don't know anyone of my age that had to. I think it could be beneficial.

But we had the chance to get to know one of the jewish survivors who told us his story. This was really something else and I still remember his stories. Also one sentence is quite important that he told us: "You are not guilty for what has been done. But you are guilty if this happens again".

He was a really great guy.

Otherwise it's true that we have to deal in most of our classes at some point with nationalism. Be it history, politics, social classes or German where we analyze poems and books that deal with the horrors of that time. Sadly it doesn't mean that there aren't any dickheads left in germany that still believe in all that shit.

 

[gamma]

This is not true. I never had to visit a concentration camp. My girlfriend neither and I honestly don't know anyone of my age that had to. I think it could be beneficial.

But we had the chance to get to know one of the jewish survivors who told us his story. This was really something else and I still remember his stories. Also one sentence is quite important that he told us: "You are not guilty for what has been done. But you are guilty if this happens again".

He was a really great guy.

Otherwise it's true that we have to deal in most of our classes at some point with nationalism. Be it history, politics, social classes or German where we analyze poems and books that deal with the horrors of that time. Sadly it doesn't mean that there aren't any dickheads left in germany that still believe in all that shit.

Yeah it's not the first time I read that. Definitely not true.

 

[YoungFa]

This is not true. I never had to visit a concentration camp. My girlfriend neither and I honestly don't know anyone of my age that had to. I think it could be beneficial.

But we had the chance to get to know one of the jewish survivors who told us his story. This was really something else and I still remember his stories. Also one sentence is quite important that he told us: "You are not guilty for what has been done. But you are guilty if this happens again".

He was a really great guy.

Otherwise it's true that we have to deal in most of our classes at some point with nationalism. Be it history, politics, social classes or German where we analyze poems and books that deal with the horrors of that time. Sadly it doesn't mean that there aren't any dickheads left in germany that still believe in all that shit.

Yeah we also never had to visit any camps. But also had visits from survivors and watched the videos the US militaries made when they discovered the camps in primary shool.

 

[Candescence]

We should be wary of anyone who leans somewhat too far towards fascism or communism. The extreme left had Stalin and Mao, the extreme right had Hitler and Mussolini. There's leaning towards one side of the political spectrum, and then there's going off the deep end entirely.

It's good that the Germans learned this lesson and know Nazism is bad news in any form, and are able to provide evidence to their children of what happened the last time Germany embraced fascist ideology.

But it's also good to keep in perspective that we're still dealing with people - flawed, sometimes outright sociopathic and/or terrible people, but people nonetheless. The actual Nazis were a strange bunch who somehow had their own positive views, if I recall, including being against tobacco, and certain high-ranking officials were animal lovers, including Goebbels.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Germany has really dealt with its violent past and is committed to learning from it. The opposite almost seems to be the case in large areas of the US

 

[Xando]

This is not true. I never had to visit a concentration camp. My girlfriend neither and I honestly don't know anyone of my age that had to. I think it could be beneficial.

I think this depends on the state you live in.

I visited the same concentration camp twice (6 & 8 grade) and everyone i know had to visit one during their school time since it’s relatively close to downtown hamburg.

 

[JustRon]

Every German school child must visit a concentration camp; as essential a part of the curriculum as learning to write or count.

I don't think that's true at all.
At least we never visited a concentration camp when I was in school. And I cannot find any source on this either, all I can find is a suggestion by the Central Council of Jews in Germany.

/edit: Well, beaten several times over.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

But it's also good to keep in perspective that we're still dealing with people - flawed, sometimes outright sociopathic people, but people nontheless. The actual Nazis were a strange bunch who somehow had their own positive views, if I recall, including being against tobacco, and certain high-ranking officials were animal lovers, including Goebbels.

Didn't take long

I think this depends on the state you live in.

I visited the same concentration camp twice (6 & 8 grade) and everyone i know had to visit one during their school time since it's relatively close to downtown hamburg.

Most people I know also visited a KZ in school in Austria, but not everybody.

 

[Muffin1611]

I think this depends on the state you live in.

I visited the same concentration camp twice (6 & 8 grade) and everyone i know had to visit one during their school time since it's relatively close to downtown hamburg.

Yeah, it does. Our history courses in 11th grade had the option to do a trip to Krakau and from there to Auschwitz. Nothing more. Most people went, though.

NRW, btw.

Still remember it pretty well. Pretty, um, unpleasant birthday for me.

 

[Candescence]

Didn't take long

Don't take me wrong, it's not a defense, for God's sake, wouldn't dream of it. Hitler and his people were terrible, terrible people who all deserved to be hanged in public, and I wish more of them were, including the man himself. But everything Hitler did was so he could make Germany great again (oh, hey, there's one parallel) after Versailles Treaty that Germans believed was incredibly unfair towards them, nevermind the great depression, and like any person/group, they had their odd quirks, some even positive, but you know what they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Thinking about it, it's honestly incredibly depressing to think about how far people can fall despite trying to what they think is best for their countrymen - the Roman Senate destroying the Republic by killing Caesar while trying to protect it, Vlad III displaying the heads and corpses of his enemies on stakes as a means to scare off the Ottomans (as well as executing suspected traitors or non-patriots), etc. But, well, terrible things happen when violence and murder get involved.

 

[crack-king]

Yeah, it does. Our history courses in 11th grade had the option to do a trip to Krakau and from there to Auschwitz. Nothing more. Most people went, though.

NRW, btw.

Still remember it pretty well. Pretty, um, unpleasant birthday for me.

I'm also from NRW and never had the opportunity. But this may depend also on the school. At some point in time I will visit it myself. My aunt visited it once and said that this is something you will never forget. Pretty horrifying.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

I'm also from NRW and never had the opportunity. But this may depend also on the school. At some point in time I will visit it myself. My aunt visited it once and said that this is something you will never forget. Pretty horrifying.

I worked at Mauthausen for 3 months. Trust me, you'll never forget what you'll see there. In a good and bad way.

If you ever find yourself in Krakow, do yourself a favor and visit Schindler's factory. Just btw.

 

[Deleted member 98878]

Most people I know also visited a KZ in school in Austria, but not everybody.

We went to Mauthausen. It was obligatory and I'm glad it was. Some assholes were making fun of jews and the holocaust in general before the trip. They were dead silent on the way home and I never heard them saying something similar ever again.

 

[Xando]

I'm also from NRW and never had the opportunity. But this may depend also on the school. At some point in time I will visit it myself. My aunt visited it once and said that this is something you will never forget. Pretty horrifying.

You should definitely go.

When i was in 6th grade i didn’t really understand it but when i was there the second time it was really breathtaking. Never really understood until i was standing where the „shower barracks“ were.

 

[Randam]

I always took this for granted and almost a bit overdone from our neighbours but the recent months have shown what the alternative would be. I gladly take no Swastikas in Wolfenstein over Charlotteville.

you think something like in Charlotteville happened because the US version of wolfenstein has swastikas?

Or that the same would happen if video games in Germany had swastikas?

My country is 100% blood-and-soil politics. Prominent politicians rose up by threatening to spill minority blood.

Sorry even with the picture I don't know what country you are talking about..

 

[samurai1226]

I really can recommend visiting Autschwitz - It's something you have to see with your own eyes to understand what people did there and how important it is that this should never ever happen again.

 

[Yaboosh]

Don't take me wrong, it's not a defense, for God's sake, wouldn't dream of it. Hitler and his people were terrible, terrible people who all deserved to be hanged in public, and I wish more of them were, including the man himself. But everything Hitler did was so he could make Germany great again (oh, hey, there's one parallel) after Versailles Treaty that Germans believed was incredibly unfair towards them, nevermind the great depression, and like any person/group, they had their odd quirks, some even positive, but you know what they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Thinking about it, it's honestly incredibly depressing to think about how far people can fall despite trying to what they think is best for their countrymen - the Roman Senate destroying the Republic by killing Caesar while trying to protect it, Vlad III displaying the heads and corpses of his enemies on stakes as a means to scare off the Ottomans (as well as executing suspected traitors or non-patriots), etc. But, well, terrible things happen when violence and murder get involved.

You're saying that the Germans did evil in the pursuit of good intentions.

What is the point of what you're saying? Because it comes off absolutely vile.

 

[jdstorm]

Don't take me wrong, it's not a defense, for God's sake, wouldn't dream of it. Hitler and his people were terrible, terrible people who all deserved to be hanged in public, and I wish more of them were, including the man himself. But everything Hitler did was so he could make Germany great again (oh, hey, there's one parallel) after Versailles Treaty that Germans believed was incredibly unfair towards them, nevermind the great depression, and like any person/group, they had their odd quirks, some even positive, but you know what they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Thinking about it, it's honestly incredibly depressing to think about how far people can fall despite trying to what they think is best for their countrymen - the Roman Senate destroying the Republic by killing Caesar while trying to protect it, Vlad III displaying the heads and corpses of his enemies on stakes as a means to scare off the Ottomans (as well as executing suspected traitors or non-patriots), etc. But, well, terrible things happen when violence and murder get involved.

What the hell. Thats Bullshit.

Adolf Hitler was a skilled political opportunist who saw the suffering of a nation as the chance to rise to power and further his evil political agenda.

 

[Gin-Shiio]

We should be wary of anyone who leans somewhat too far towards fascism or communism. The extreme left had Stalin and Mao, the extreme right had Hitler and Mussolini. There's leaning towards one side of the political spectrum, and then there's going off the deep end entirely.

It's good that the Germans learned this lesson and know Nazism is bad news in any form, and are able to provide evidence to their children of what happened the last time Germany embraced fascist ideology.

But it's also good to keep in perspective that we're still dealing with people - flawed, sometimes outright sociopathic and/or terrible people, but people nonetheless. The actual Nazis were a strange bunch who somehow had their own positive views, if I recall, including being against tobacco, and certain high-ranking officials were animal lovers, including Goebbels.

I don't understand the argument you are making. Neo-nazis still exist in Germany, and they have all their human rights intact. But they are the ones that want to deny these very rights to others. Left-wing extremism does not, and that is where they fundamentally differ from one another.

 

[Oppo]

Yeah we also never had to visit any camps. But also had visits from survivors and watched the videos the US militaries made when they discovered the camps in primary shool.

we actually had this in Canadian schools, way back in the 80s. i remember every Remembrance Day they'd bring in vets to tell us how fucked up the whole thing was, watched extremely sobering documentaries, they really tried to drill the whole Never Again thing in.

 

[peter0611]

you think something like in Charlotteville happened because the US version of wolfenstein has swastikas?

I'm pretty sure they're implying that since Germany's tolerance for Nazism is so low that even it's presence in video games is restricted, a rally similar to that in Charlotteville is 100% out of the question.

 

[paperboywriter]

I have never heard the phrase blood and soil, but I'm convinced that Germany is on the right path. Fucking nazi scum is being denounced at every level and people in general are educated with Germanys history in mind. Never forget Germany, Europe and the world. I certainly won't.

 

[Oppo]

I don't understand the argument you are making. Neo-nazis still exist in Germany, and they have all their human rights intact. But they are the ones that want to deny these very rights to others. Left-wing extremism does not, and that is where they fundamentally differ from one another.

get a grip, s/he's not making an argument for Nazis in any way. he's saying people delude themselves. and it's not always obvious at first. Left wing extremism is still extremism, read anything about South America.

 

[Gin-Shiio]

get a grip, s/he's not making an argument for Nazis in any way. he's saying people delude themselves. and it's not always obvious at first.

First of, your tone makes me not want to engage in a conversation with you. Secondly, my post doesn't say what you say it does. And clearly Candescence is trying to be philosophical about this, and I am offering my perspective on their points.

 

[Somnid]

Don't take me wrong, it's not a defense, for God's sake, wouldn't dream of it. Hitler and his people were terrible, terrible people who all deserved to be hanged in public, and I wish more of them were, including the man himself. But everything Hitler did was so he could make Germany great again (oh, hey, there's one parallel) after Versailles Treaty that Germans believed was incredibly unfair towards them, nevermind the great depression, and like any person/group, they had their odd quirks, some even positive, but you know what they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Thinking about it, it's honestly incredibly depressing to think about how far people can fall despite trying to what they think is best for their countrymen - the Roman Senate destroying the Republic by killing Caesar while trying to protect it, Vlad III displaying the heads and corpses of his enemies on stakes as a means to scare off the Ottomans (as well as executing suspected traitors or non-patriots), etc. But, well, terrible things happen when violence and murder get involved.

This type of argument isn't going to work. This is already shown by the need to hedge your speech with an apology before saying things in a somewhat objective manner. Eventually, perhaps 100+ years from now someone could speak to the intentions of the Nazis but we don't live in that time and nobody will accept it, partly because apologists and sympathizers still exist as well as the wounds and without a very controlled setting you can't tell the difference.

It should be enough to say "The path to hell is paved with good intentions," and that moralistic arguments are often license to do whatever in the name of good.

As for the article, I would love it if we mandated that all US schoolchildren must spend at least 1 year abroad. I think this is a feature that a lot of European countries have easy access to but in places like middle America that are completely stuck in their bubble communities, there just isn't enough influx of alternate perspective. It doesn't even have to be to memorial sites, just live somewhere where people speak a different language and ideally where the majority looks different than you do.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

Sorry even with the picture I don't know what country you are talking about..

Some google image searching reveals this to be Hishammuddin Hussein, senior cabinet member of the Malay government, and the weapon was brandished as a gesture towards Malay Nationalism, but from what I'm reading that 'nationalism' is often used as a cover to discriminate against/threaten immigrant or non-Muslim populations.

 

[the_korben]

I don't understand the argument you are making. Neo-nazis still exist in Germany, and they have all their human rights intact. But they are the ones that want to deny these very rights to others. Left-wing extremism does not, and that is where they fundamentally differ from one another.

Also, most radical leftists these days usually do not align with Stalin or (less so) Mao but strongly oppose their legacy. Leftism and leftist radicalism has a much broader and a humanist background, starting with working class movements in the 19th century, Marxism and socialism and up to modern social sciences. You don't have to be a tankie to call yourself communist. But you are certainly fascist scum of the Earth if you call yourself a Nazi.

 

[norinrad]

I have never heard the phrase blood and soil, but I'm convinced that Germany is on the right path. Fucking nazi scum is being denounced at every level and people in general are educated with Germanys history in mind. Never forget Germany, Europe and the world. I certainly won't.

They are and Germany is a great place with good people, though they also have lots of issues with neonazi's, who are currently off the radar I suspect due to resources being redirected to combat would be terrorists coming back home from the middle East.

 

[Violet_0]

e: wrong thread

 

[Kthulhu]

It's amazing how far Germany has come in the past 70 years.

Germany has really dealt with its violent past and is committed to learning from it. The opposite almost seems to be the case in large areas of the US

Out politicians ended reconstruction too early and screwed us for generation.

Also facism was never demonized nearly as hard as it was in Europe.

Edit: and we downplay slavery by a lot. I get that it's normal for countries to whitewash their atrocities, but Germany is proof of why you shouldn't.

 

[PdotMichael]

People like to forget in those discussions that Germany has a long history of liberal and socialist political cultures which developed many of the today's theoretical concepts of various political systems - despite the 10 years of nationalsocialism.

Can't really say the same about the Anglo-Saxons.

 

[Dingens]

You know what's the real funny thing about this? It was the US and UK designed De-Nazification program that the one that led to this. Trials were held. Symbols were forbidden. Laws were written. Extermination camps were and are purposefully preserved. Germans probably couldn't have done it all by themselves.[...]

that's not quite correct. Most of the honest "Vergangenheitsbewältigung" only started in the 70s and 80s with the reign of the social democrats under Willy Brandt (for the german case). Until his famous Warshauer Kniefall neither the German public nor scholars cared much - in fact, they are heavily criticized hitherto for having lived in an ivory tower for 2 decades and ignoring the elephant in the room.
The American policy may have helped, but only the leftists drive kicked things into motion.

I really can recommend visiting Autschwitz - It's something you have to see with your own eyes to understand what people did there and how important it is that this should never ever happen again.

I went there during a cold winter to have the worst experience possible... but it just didn't work. I knew that I should feel upset or at least feel anything... but nothing. It's just to unreal, even standing there didn't change that sadly. Or maybe I'm just a cold hearted bastard.
On the other hand, building a fucking mall next to the camp was infuriating as hell. Who the fuck would sign of on something like that? Have some respect.

People like to forget in those discussions that Germany has a long history of liberal and socialist political cultures which developed many of the today's theoretical concepts of various political systems - despite the 10 years of nationalsocialism.

Can't really say the same about the Anglo-Saxons.

Seeing how social sciences are treated in Anglo-Saxon countries... or even here on gaf, I don't see that changing any tme soon. What doesn't make money has no value apparently

 

[Glass Rebel]

you think something like in Charlotteville happened because the US version of wolfenstein has swastikas?

Or that the same would happen if video games in Germany had swastikas?

No, I am alluding to the fact that Germany has, in their attempts to extinguish the presence of Neo-Nazism in public life, restricted some rights that a country like America takes for granted. Sometimes it goes arguably too far, as in the removal of Swastikas in entertainment products, but it is a small price to pay if it means that a large portion of the population treats it as a blemish on the history of their country.

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

I've visited Dachau twice and it's a sobering experience everyone should have. Maybe that sort of education would fix the cretins in this country

 

[Advocatus Diaboli]

I've visited Dachau twice and it's a sobering experience everyone should have. Maybe that sort of education would fix the cretins in this country

There's a Holocaust Museum in D.C. right down Independence Avenue from the Capitol and near the White House.

So, perhaps some wishful thinking there.

 

[j_k_redtail]

But we had the chance to get to know one of the jewish survivors who told us his story. This was really something else and I still remember his stories. Also one sentence is quite important that he told us: "You are not guilty for what has been done. But you are guilty if this happens again".

Extremely well-put.

 

[Wamb0wneD]

If America would have handled slavery and the genocide of native Americans the same way Germany did the Nazi period, Trump wouldn't be president today.

 

[Dingens]

There's a Holocaust Museum in D.C. right down Independence Avenue from the Capitol and near the White House.

So, perhaps some wishful thinking there.

Germany's/Europe's past is not the US' past. What works for one country doesn't necessarily work for another.
The US is suffering from different problems and American Nazis are fuelled by different events, prominently the civil war and the US' complicated past with race. Having a nice Holocaust memorial isn't going to do much since most people don't make connections to their own heritage. It's not "their" past. A proper public discussion about the civil war would probably be a better fit.

But even then I have my doubts since the US as a whole isn't particularly great at atonement. That's more a cultural issue I fear. One of my favourite examples is the Vietnam Veterans memorial in Washington. I didn't know about it until an American university professor brought it to my attention in a class about how countries deal with their dark past. He was extremely proud about the fact that such a huge memorial was build in such a prominent location and that they actually got a Vietnamese architect to design it. The memorial itself is basically a large black wall with the names of countless dead soldiers engraved in it. I'm sure many Americans would be just as proud about this as my teacher was, but many Germans and Europeans probably already see the problem.
I can guarantee you that, if this was a memorial in Germany (or in most other places in Europe), the names written on those walls would be of Vietnamese citizens who got killed during the war, and certainly NOT the names of soldiers who went there to do the killing.
This is the main difference in mindset and it's undoubtedly hard to overcome.

As I see it, Americans are too much in love with everything military related that they tend to look for stories of glory even in absolute atrocities. They'd rather have war heroes who just followed their orders, overcame the most difficult circumstances and did what they had to for the greater good than war criminals who murdered innocents and didn't even dare to question the orders they got.
There's a reason why war criminals in the US are glorified, why the confederacy is viewed in a positive light, why civil war re-enactment are always "heroic battles", why Custor's last stand is a legend and why so many Americans seem to have a hard on for the Wehrmacht.
And that's not going to chance with a few memorials, this needs deeper change in society first (and that's not going to happen)

 

[Oberon]

If America would have handled slavery and the genocide of native Americans the same way Germany did the Nazi period, Trump wouldn't be president today.

The very least they could've done is teach about that stuff extentsivly in Schools and not try to sugar coat it. Or even learn about what WW 2 was all about. It's easy to think think that nazism and fascism can only happen elsewhere. It's easier to combat such vile idiologies when you know what cirscumstances allowed such evil to gain power.
Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. Don't just remember that it happend. Remember how and why it happend

 

[Wamb0wneD]

The very least they could've done is teach about that stuff extentsivly in Schools and not try to sugar coat it. Or even learn about what WW 2 was all about. It's easy to think think that nazism and fascism can only happen elsewhere. It's easier to combat such vile idiologies when you know what cirscumstances allowed such evil to gain power.
Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. Don't just remember that it happend. Remember how and why it happend

Education on these matters is key, yes. I always felt like the nationalism/rampant patriotism in the US has hindered that. A president who would suggest teaching kids in schools more about the atrocities and on who's backs their nation was built would be deemed unpatriotic and unelectable, same as a president who would say he's atheist.

 

[watershed]

This kind of thing would only work if Americans themselves, including people in positions of power, believed in the wrongs of America's history including slavery. Instead we have a president who won't call out white terrorists and teachers and textbooks who want to erase the world slavery and replace it with unpaid labor and forced immigration. White Americans aren't going to dedicate themselves to unlearning their own deeply held values of racism and oppression.

 

[The Wart]

Education on these matters is key, yes. I always felt like the nationalism/rampant patriotism in the US has hindered that. A president who would suggest teaching kids in schools more about the atrocities and on who's backs their nation was built would be deemed unpatriotic and unelectable, same as a president who would say he's atheist.

It's so hard to see how to get there though. The reasons it is impossible to properly educate Americans on slavery and racism are the same reasons we so desperately need that education. In Germany doing this was possible only because the governments responsible for their atrocities were decisively defeated. That's not happening here any time soon.

 

[frontovik]

Germany's/Europe's past is not the US' past. What works for one country doesn't necessarily work for another.
The US is suffering from different problems and American Nazis are fuelled by different events, prominently the civil war and the US' complicated past with race. Having a nice Holocaust memorial isn't going to do much since most people don't make connections to their own heritage. It's not "their" past. A proper public discussion about the civil war would probably be a better fit.

But even then I have my doubts since the US as a whole isn't particularly great at atonement. That's more a cultural issue I fear. One of my favourite examples is the Vietnam Veterans memorial in Washington. I didn't know about it until an American university professor brought it to my attention in a class about how countries deal with their dark past. He was extremely proud about the fact that such a huge memorial was build in such a prominent location and that they actually got a Vietnamese architect to design it. The memorial itself is basically a large black wall with the names of countless dead soldiers engraved in it. I'm sure many Americans would be just as proud about this as my teacher was, but many Germans and Europeans probably already see the problem.
I can guarantee you that, if this was a memorial in Germany (or in most other places in Europe), the names written on those walls would be of Vietnamese citizens who got killed during the war, and certainly NOT the names of soldiers who went there to do the killing.
This is the main difference in mindset and it's undoubtedly hard to overcome.

As I see it, Americans are too much in love with everything military related that they tend to look for stories of glory even in absolute atrocities. They'd rather have war heroes who just followed their orders, overcame the most difficult circumstances and did what they had to for the greater good than war criminals who murdered innocents and didn't even dare to question the orders they got.
There's a reason why war criminals in the US are glorified, why the confederacy is viewed in a positive light, why civil war re-enactment are always "heroic battles", why Custor's last stand is a legend and why so many Americans seem to have a hard on for the Wehrmacht.
And that's not going to chance with a few memorials, this needs deeper change in society first (and that's not going to happen)

This is an excellent post and should be emphasized.

 

[Randam]

No, I am alluding to the fact that Germany has, in their attempts to extinguish the presence of Neo-Nazism in public life, restricted some rights that a country like America takes for granted. Sometimes it goes arguably too far, as in the removal of Swastikas in entertainment products, but it is a small price to pay if it means that a large portion of the population treats it as a blemish on the history of their country.

Swastikas are still in movies. They don't get censored.
For some reason game publishers remove them because they fear consequences.

I'm pretty sure they're implying that since Germany's tolerance for Nazism is so low that even it's presence in video games is restricted, a rally similar to that in Charlotteville is 100% out of the question.

Like said before, it's not restricted in video games.

And Google Pegida. We have a lot of kinda simular stuff.