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[impirius]

I remember when Bush first made his decision about stem cell research on television. Everyone was expecting him to fall flat on his face on what was basically an unwinnable political situation, and most of the reaction to that televised speech was, "Well, that sounds fair enough." It seemed like a sensible compromise, and it was the first time I was really impressed with Bush. I'm kinda surprised it has come up as an issue.

 

[Incognito]

:lol @ Link too many numbers

more money was spent on the bill clinton sex investigation than is being allocated to stem cell research in this country.

out of the 70 lines bush promised, only about 19 are in actual research because the rest are too contaminated.

Certainly non of you would willingly give yourselves over to a bunch of scientists to experiment on knowing that you wont survive the experience. Is it too hard to afford that same, basic right to a human being who does not have the ability, or the oppurtunity, to object to the same degree I know any of you would?

i'd sacrifice myself in a instant for the greater developement and good of stem cell research.. i think a lot of people suffering with these diseases would, too.

Before any medical breakthroughs can ever be reached, a human life has to first be exterminated.

depends on when you think life actually "begins". i see 200,000 frozen embroys sitting around in labs across the country, and wonder why they're just sitting there. either they'll be destroyed, or maybe one day fertilized.

why destroy an embryo when it could be used for so much more?

For the majority of people with the most basic senses of morality, that is simply going too far.

not everyone is pro-life.

The Nazis performed experiments on live human beings, and look what we thought of them. And now look at what people are calling for with embryonic stem cell research.

There is no difference.

that is probably one of the most retarded things i've ever seen on this forum, and that's saying a lot. sacrifcing embryos to further research in this promising field is akin to what the nazis did?

are you serious?

 

[Hitokage]

Does not anyone here realize that there is federal funding for stem cell research?

Stem cell research is totally legal under the Bush administration, although the destruction of live, human embryos for the sole purpose of scientific research is not.

Ethically, we are not allowed to perform dangerous, life threatening experiments on human beings, and that ethic naturally falls to human fetuses as well.

Why do most people here find that so hard to comprehend? Does anyone even value human life anymore? Certainly non of you would willingly give yourselves over to a bunch of scientists to experiment on knowing that you wont survive the experience. Is it too hard to afford that same, basic right to a human being who does not have the ability, or the oppurtunity, to object to the same degree I know any of you would?

This is not a cut and dry issue that most try to make it out too be. Before any medical breakthroughs can ever be reached, a human life has to first be exterminated.

For the majority of people with the most basic senses of morality, that is simply going too far.

Stem cell research is funded by federal grants, but the intentionl killing of innocent lives to obtain those stem cells are not.

I swear, after being in these forums long enough, I think I can safely say a high number of people here would more willing to afford more rights to known and convicted terrorists then to human fetuses.

The Nazis performed experiments on live human beings, and look what we thought of them. And now look at what people are calling for with embryonic stem cell research.

There is no difference.

Except those stem cells are going to come from embryos that would have been destroyed anyway. And as for the bolded statement, you're confusing suspected with convicted.

 

[KingV]

i'd sacrifice myself in a instant for the greater developement and good of stem cell research.. i think a lot of people suffering with these diseases would, too.

I agree with some of the points you made, but this is probably the biggest load of crap ever laid down at the feet of GA, well... except for a certain ill-fated GCN announcement.

 

[Loki]

i see 200,000 frozen embroys sitting around in labs across the country, and wonder why they're just sitting there. either they'll be destroyed, or maybe one day fertilized.

Embryos are already fertilized.


For what it's worth, I think this is just a case of tactless political expediency; I can much more accept Raoul Duke's rephrasing of what Edwards SHOULD have said than what he actually said. But that sort of hyperbole is just Edwards' southern trial lawyer shining through. You can just picture him before a jury, shouting "the crippled shall walk and the blind shall see! Hallelujah! Vote Kerry!" -- unfortunately, the American public is about as gullible and suggestible as your average jury, and laps stuff like this up. This is not to say, as others have pointed out, that progress along these lines is not more likely to be made under a Kerry regime (obviously), but the way he phrased that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. He knows better.

 

[Incognito]

unfortunately, the American public is about as gullible and suggestible as your average jury, and laps stuff like this up. This is not to say, as others have pointed out, that progress along these lines is not more likely to be made under a Kerry regime (obviously), but the way he phrased that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. He knows better.

i agree 100%.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Why is it despicable? How about the fact that there are millions of people in wheelchairs who shouldn't be pandered to by the death of a famous actor? Everyone and anyone know that stem cell research is in its infancy and the situation that Edwards described is not even close to becoming a reality.

I'm reminded of when Jon Stewart's take on this view: "Cures will take a lot of time and hard work... so why bother?"

 

[Cerebral Palsy]

I do agree with Edwards... Well, that voting Kerry will give a much greater chance for wheelchair bound people to one day walk again. That much is obvious with Bush slowing the progression of stem cell research in the U.S. to a crawl. Edwards choice of wording on this issue is beyond lackluster though. He should have really known better.

 

[Celicar]

Give me a break. Edwards is lying and he knows it. We are not even close to getting somoene like Reeves to walk again. That's such bullshit, but I'm sure people will eat it up.

 

[Matt]

I don’t think a fetus is a human being (at least at this stage of development), therefore I don’t have a problem with stem cell research. Am I amoral?

 

[Cerebral Palsy]

I don’t think a fetus is a human being (at least at this stage of development), therefore I don’t have a problem with stem cell research. Am I amoral?

BURN IN HELL!

 

[ShadowRed]

BURN IN HELL!

I already know the answer to this but still I can ask. Can we get a ban for this? Others have been releaved of their posting duties for less, including myself. He isn't even trying to debate, he's just hurling inflamatory rheteric at another poster.

 

[impirius]

I already know the answer to this but still I can ask. Can we get a ban for this? Others have been releaved of their posting duties for less, including myself. He isn't even trying to debate, he's just hurling inflamatory rheteric at another poster.

Your web browser is not rendering <sarcasm> tags properly

 

[AeroGod]

Cooter I cant believe you actually tried posting a topic like this. You might as well we wearing a suit made out of freshly chopped seals while swimming in a shark infested pool.

 

[Baron Aloha]

It wouldn't be despicable at all if Kerry mentioned Reeve tomorrow night. I just heard on TV that Reeve called Kerry a short time before he died and left a msg on Kerry's answering machine telling him to keep pushing the stem cell research issue. Some democrats are calling on Kerry to play the recording sometime tomorrow night before the debate.

 

[Outlaw Pro Mod]

Well, that voting Kerry will give a much greater chance for wheelchair bound people to one day walk again

You are a certified moron.

 

[Cerebral Palsy]

You are a certified moron.

Do you somehow think that re-electing Bush is going help in furthering the progress of stem cell research? Bush has done nothing but create road blocks to hault advancement. At least with Kerry in office more stem cell lines will be available, and hopefully more government funding. Though no one can guarantee that with Kerry will come cures for all of these horrible illnesses, advancements in stem cell research will happen at a much faster rate with him in office. The possibility is there at least.


Anyway, I guess I'm a certified moron.

 

[Xenon]

Why dont we just use terrorist fetuses . Then everyone wins =)

 

[Brannon]

How can people be offended by that statement? He said people LIKE Reeve, not Reeve himself. Obviously he isn't talking about Christopher; nobody's that stupid (that statement's going to bite me right in the ass later in life I guarantee). Geez, anything for sensationalism I guess.

And my take on the stem cell issue is likened to a guy stuck in the middle of the ocean, some regular people miles away who may or may not know he's in the ocean, and the Coast Guard that definitely knows he's in the ocean, and that the powers that be say that he can live as long as he likes, but the Coast Guard isn't allowed to go help him.

I thought we were DONE with the Dark Ages?

 

[videogamer]

It wouldn't be despicable at all if Kerry mentioned Reeve tomorrow night. I just heard on TV that Reeve called Kerry a short time before he died and left a msg on Kerry's answering machine telling him to keep pushing the stem cell research issue. Some democrats are calling on Kerry to play the recording sometime tomorrow night before the debate.

Yeah, I wouldn't be suprised if Reeve wanted Kerry to push stem cells with the Reeve name, even after his death.

 

[Mandark]

The fundamentalist Christian right wing has no moral grounds to complain on this. None at all. There were no complaints when the Bush campaign put this up as the front page for their campaign site, which makes the sudden outrage at exploiting the dead somewhat less credible.

Christopher Reeve supported stem cell research in life, and as much as this is a case of cheap and cheesy political symbolism, at least it's an honest one (whereas Ronald Reagan would never have supported it).

Wonder if Hell is handicapped accessible..

It's not the liberals who are shitting on his memory here.

but the intentionl killing of innocent lives to obtain those stem cells are not

Who's aborting embryos just to get stem cells? The stem cells would come from embryos that are being aborted anyway, rather than just tossing them in the trash. Or do you think that funding this research would make women get pregnant just so they can have abortions in the name of science?

 

[samus4ever]

I'm a Bush supporter, and I don't agree with him on Stem Cells, but I do agree with him on one thing in the issue, that human life should be valued no matter what stage of life a person is in. I really do not know much on the issue, but I believe that you can use the Egg for stem cell research. If, in fact, that is the case then I have to say that Bush is in the wrong. I mean, every woman in the US over the age of 13 (i hope, lol) produces a egg every month that is never used. I mean if that is the case then I don't think that anything is wrong with Stem Cell Research, but I've also heard you need an actual embryo to do this. That, then, makes me believe that killing a life that could be formed in search of healing a present person alive is wrong. Please, inform me on this issue. I am braindead from work. .

 

[videogamer]

I'm a Bush supporter, and I don't agree with him on Stem Cells, but I do agree with him on one thing in the issue, that human life should be valued no matter what stage of life a person is in. I really do not know much on the issue, but I believe that you can use the Egg for stem cell research. If, in fact, that is the case then I have to say that Bush is in the wrong. I mean, every woman in the US over the age of 13 (i hope, lol) produces a egg every month that is never used. I mean if that is the case then I don't think that anything is wrong with Stem Cell Research, but I've also heard you need an actual embryo to do this. That, then, makes me believe that killing a life that could be formed in search of healing a present person alive is wrong. Please, inform me on this issue. I am braindead from work. .

If people could use eggs, then there wouldn't be much controversy over this.

If you want to study stem cells, then Pubmed is the best place to go. Review artilces are the best for the beginner.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi

 

[Keio]

None of this was known in the 17th century.* Then, with the invention of the microscope, the scientists got a chance to examine early fetuses for the first time.* The tiny curled shapes seemed to the credulous scientists to be fully formed, though really, really tiny, human beings.* The mini-human was called a homunculous, and it was believed that the homunculous arrived curled up in the sperm cell, with the woman's womb functioning only as soil in which the sperm, the seed, grew.*

And the stem cells are like these cells taken from these really small people, ain't I right? The evil libruls want to murder all these little people... :O

I despise the newspeak created to defend anti-stem cell and anti-abortion stances. "Pro-Life" is a stupid abstraction that should never have been accepted into mainstream speech.

Not being from America I see the stem-cell issue as another Bush decision affecting the lives of people all over the world. My friends who have diabetes were stunned when he banned federal funding on technically religious grounds - and the research that would have been done in the US would have ultimately benefited people everywhere.

 

[Zaptruder]

If you don't carefully look at the issue of what is life and what is just... a clump of cells, just for the sake of principle, then your principle is denying millions and millions of people around the world the hope and chance for a cure for ailments that plague them and probably not you.

Infact, an principle or ideal that isn't carefully examined and applied practically is but a corruption.

If you think about it logically, at somepoint, a fetuse *will* develop significant neural connections that effectively mark them as 'alive'. But the stemcell research occurs way before then, when the fetuse is nothing more than a blastose; a collection of cells, that just happen to have the ability to divide according to a genetic blueprint.

True, the potential for human life is there in the blastose, but at that point, if you froze it's development, it would be far far from anything you can consider human life. And that's essentially what frozen embroys are; and research on these have been denied.

The practical effect is that... for protection of frozen clumps of cells; that were to be destroyed anyway, the progress of technology is halted, it's positive benefits wasted, the efforts of human learning and understanding wasted or at best stalled... and the hopes of millions and millions of people extinguished.

To espouse your view so strongly... without carefully looking at the issues properly. That's ignorance. It's one of the biggest evils the world has ever faced.... and will continue to face.

 

[Panajev2001a]

It's an old line Papa Mussolini used to tell me when I was a kid. I'm surprised you have never heard of it.

I doubt you are that old.

 

[Drensch]

I do agree with him on one thing in the issue, that human life should be valued no matter what stage of life a person is in.

So a guy who started a war responsible for 20k civilian deaths, 1000k military deaths, is against life saving medical research, fights for unhealthy environmental conditions, protects negligent and dangerous corporations, and strives to keep americans away from free healthcare--Values human life?

 

[Cooter]

How can people be offended by that statement? He said people LIKE Reeve, not Reeve himself. Obviously he isn't talking about Christopher; nobody's that stupid (that statement's going to bite me right in the ass later in life I guarantee). Geez, anything for sensationalism I guess.

I think using Reeve's name is only half of what I find offensive. The fact that he can stand up there and tell wheelchair bound people that in 4-8 years if Kerry is elected they will be walking again is what I find most sickening. It’s a promise that simply cannot be fulfilled.

I doubt you are that old.

Damn, you got me.

 

[Zaptruder]

I think using Reeve's name is only half of what I find offensive. The fact that he can stand up there and tell wheelchair bound people that in 4-8 years if Kerry is elected they will be walking again is what I find most sickening. It&#8217;s a promise that simply cannot be fulfilled.



Damn, you got me.

You're a fucking retard aren't you.

Even if the cure isn't developed in 4-8 years, the motion to get it happening will mean that there WILL be a chance of a cure.

If you elect kerry/edwards, the chance is there.

If you don't, well fuck it, you'll have to wait at least another 4 years to get something like that started.

I find it sickening that you think the interest of disabled people is really in wordplay and not in the actualization of something that could cure their disability.

 

[Cooter]

You're a fucking retard aren't you.

Even if the cure isn't developed in 4-8 years, the motion to get it happening will mean that there WILL be a chance of a cure.

If you elect kerry/edwards, the chance is there.

If you don't, well fuck it, you'll have to wait at least another 4 years to get something like that started.

I find it sickening that you think the interest of disabled people is really in wordplay and not in the actualization of something that could cure their disability.

That's not what he said sir, go read it again.

When John Kerry is president, people like Christopher Reeve are going get up out of that wheelchair and walk again.' Edwards made the unprecedented campaign promises during 30-minute speech at Newton High School gym in Newton, Iowa...

It can't be much more clear. He doesn't mention chances or possibilities. He says people will be walking when John Kerry is President and it is a hollow promise.

If he meant what you interpreted then why didn't he just say it. Quit twisting his words to what you want them to say.

 

[dave is ok]

Kerry = Good

Stem Cell Research = Good

 

[Zaptruder]

Which can be readily interpreted as, electing Kerry *will* help you get a cure again.

If you want to be pedantic about this shit, going all fucking roll-eyes and omg, because of what's essentially a poor way of phrasing something, then you sir can go kill yourself. For the betterment of mankind.

The world ill needs a person like you.

The ability to discern intent from words, and weigh it carefully with the situation, is a vital skill to have.

If you're that hopping mad about a throw away phrasing of words...

where the fuck to you stand on George Bush's wording of having found WMDs pre-iraq invasion?

Fucking hypocrite.

 

[Cooter]

Anyone that sees this post before the one that's above it, please DO NOT READ THE POST THAT THE LITTLE ARROWS POINT TO

Why don't you admit that you and others are interpreting what you believe Edwards was trying to say?

That's all I'm looking for. The quote speaks for itself and people don't need you or others telling us what it says.

EDIT:

Which can be readily interpreted as, electing Kerry *will* help you get a cure again.

Perfect. Thank you.

 

[xsarien]

Perfect. Thank you.

Well, the other option is having a cure hindered by Bush's Bible-blinded beliefs. Kerry may be overstating the speed at which stem cell research would find cures for things like spinal injuries, but it's better than giving a big ol' "Fuck you!" to the medical community by cutting off federal dollars for generating new lines.

 

[impirius]

The world ill needs a person like you.

Yeesh

 

[Cooter]

Does that surprise you impirius?

If you don't agree with them then you shouldn't even be allowed to live. Their compassion only applies to people of their ilk.

 

[impirius]

It's just kind of funny that there's so much anger and vitriol in a conversation between folks who want to preserve the sanctity of human life and folks who want to give crippled people a chance to walk again

 

[Zaptruder]

It's just kind of funny that there's so much anger and vitriol in a conversation between folks who want to preserve the sanctity of human life and folks who want to give crippled people a chance to walk again

I thought it was pretty funny actually. I was just thinking of Castlevania Symphony of the Night.

That line "The world ill needs a saviour like you" is pretty famous for it's bad english. So along with comments about how words twisted in some sort of hypocritical outraged indignation, I thought it went quite well.

And cooter, good work once again missing the intent of those words.

If you'd like me to restate dryly;

The world is better off without that kind of ignorance. Think clearly about the issues and what's important before you spout of your nonsense.

 

[Zaptruder]

It's just kind of funny that there's so much anger and vitriol in a conversation between folks who want to preserve the sanctity of human life and folks who want to give crippled people a chance to walk again

And as I've said before...

Is it really the sanctity of human life they're trying to preserve?

They don't look at the specifics closely enough; if they defined it clearly, then human life can be reasoned to be something that starts once brain neural connections start making significant formations. But the embryos are way way before that point, so there should be little problem with harvesting blastose for scientific research. In order that we better preserve human life and give it a better quality of living.

If you don't take the time and effort and instead choose to draw lines arbitarily and erroneously... then where's the sanctity in that?

 

[Cooter]

I’m not arguing the validity or need for stem cell research. Like I stated earlier, I disagree with Bush on this issue. I merely reject what Edwards said yesterday.

Oh, it’s my fault I didn’t know what you meant Zap.

Most times when someone tells me the world doesn’t need a person like me I take that as whishing death upon myself or at the very least being indifferent about the issue.. I know when I say the world doesn’t need child molesters I don’t mean it doesn’t need their perversions rather it doesn’t need them period. Including their very existence.

 

[Zaptruder]

I'd rather do without the perversion then the people.

I guess that's the difference between you and me huh?

 

[Cooter]

I'd rather do without the perversion then the people.

I guess that's the difference between you and me huh?

You're absolutely correct.

In a perfect world I would agree with you but you and I know this is and never will be a perfect world.

 

[Zaptruder]

This may not or never be a perfect world, but we can strive towards making it better.

Taking your example, punishing the child molester directly has little effect in the grand scheme of things. Revenge is exacted, but the damage is done.

To not recognise that it's a systemic problem that requires a complex answer to solve (destroying the perversion, and the factors that create that perversion)...

Moreover, you've been missing my point continually.

What's the point in discrediting someone by missing their point and attacking their words? You don't, and infact discredit yourself.

Learning how to percieve intent from a given context... and weighing it carefully with the situation is an important skill. I suggest you learn it.

 

[Cooter]

What if my perceived intent from the given context is that Edwards is lying and making false promises in order to get more votes? Can you rightly tell me that is incorrect?

About the child molester situation, I agree to an extent. Yes, me must strive for a better world but we also must never let blind optimism cloud our historically based fact on human nature.

What if a child molester rapes an eight-year old and it is deemed after 25 years in therapy that he is cured and no longer a threat to society. He is subsequently released on the streets and two years later he rapes and kills a child. How do you justify your need for redemption with the public safety of society and vulnerable children?

 

[Kon Tiki]

So let me get this right.

Mentioning the death of a big supporter in a speech about his cause is bad.

Opening every speech with nine eleven is good.

Gotcha.

 

[Zaptruder]

What if my perceived intent from the given context is that Edwards is lying and making false promises in order to get more votes? Can you rightly tell me that is incorrect?

Yes. The lie is only true on a surface level. It's best worded strongly for emotional impact and 'clarity' of message (does everyone understand the implication of forwarding stem-cell research? I think not). If you want to examine it, then examine it strongly; give the argument it's best chance, or don't bother at all.

Obviously that means under Kerry-Edwards, research that explores all possible (reasonable) avenues, including stem-cell research will be done, where as under Bush, this would not be true.

Do you think that he doesn't deserve the votes from people who's primary interest in voting would be to see an eventual cure for that kind of disability? More so than Bush?