MightyHedgehog
Member
Yeah, I agree with Mr. pwn...MS should just pack up and go home now.
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Enchant Arm Update(HDD caching,DVD9 limitations,Beta vs Alpha kits)
- Thread starter Kleegamefan
- Start date
teh_pwn said:
The only reason Gamecube games got sloppily compressed is because 3rd party games sell like crap on the system. 3rd party games actually decent on XBox, and will sell as well if not better on X360. Which means developers will actually get the OK from publishers to put more effort into X360 games so they won't be as sloppily handled.
Pseudo judo
Member
That's a great PR statment, but it says nothing about it being vastly superior to all current texture compression techniques and says nothing about what texture compression that PS3 will utilize.
You're assuming that PS3 won't use comparable compression techiques, and as if it's just a matter of applying this technique to data on a PS3 game and compressing it tightly onto a DVD.
You're only looking at textures. High definition audio and video consumes a lot of space. Again, look at Jade Empire. Much of the game's space is video captures of real time game events for each possible character.
You're assuming that PS3 won't use comparable compression techiques, and as if it's just a matter of applying this technique to data on a PS3 game and compressing it tightly onto a DVD.
You're only looking at textures. High definition audio and video consumes a lot of space. Again, look at Jade Empire. Much of the game's space is video captures of real time game events for each possible character.
Because if something's already compressed with a similar technique and already fills a BR disc, you either have to cut, compress more and lose data, or have multiple discs to make it happen on DVD.
The playstation brand still dominates the video game world. Many games will be built for PS3 first, and then ported to X360.
The playstation brand still dominates the video game world. Many games will be built for PS3 first, and then ported to X360.
DVD9 is fine. Even if it needs to use 3 disks its still fine. Its cheap easy to mass produce and most importantly it doesnt add an insane amount to the consoles cost.
BDR is a great tech, but surely it needs to mature and prove itself before being adopted in a home console.
BDR is a great tech, but surely it needs to mature and prove itself before being adopted in a home console.
What makes you think games will fill a BRD when they don't even fill a DVD? Games will get bigger but they aren't going to suddenly require 5x the storage capacity because they are in HD. PC games have been HD for ages, I don't see anyone begging for HD storage. Games may grow beyond the capacity of 1 DVD, but I seriously doubt they will be constrained by blu-ray discs anytime soon.
That's a faulty analogy. PC games like Half Life 2 are installed slowly onto a harddrive. The game itself has little audio, hardly any video. All it has is speech.
Console games are packed with media.
Xenosaga, Jade Empire, and I believe Ninja Gaiden already fill dual layer DVDs with 480i/p video. What makes you think that they won't need more space than a DVD when some games could already use it? A vast increase in video resolution, huge increase in texture sizes, the general trend of games having more media....PS3 games will take advantage of it. X360 will have some nice effects too, but it could use more space.
I remember this same argument about PS2 not needing DVD space...
Installed or not, they come in under DVD size.teh_pwn said:
I don't know about Xenosaga, but Jade Empire and Ninja Gaiden don't come anywhere close to filling a dual layer DVD. They are both just barely over the limit of a SL DVD.
edit: JE does come close (6gb), but I have no doubt that if they were constrained they could've fit a lot more. Starting with the removal of the 400mb of demos.
No games do, but that isn't what I said anyway. I said games won't fill a BD-ROM. The notion that games will use all available space they have is nonsense.
At worse, the videos will simply be lower quality due to compression
Not a serious issue. Again, see PC games.
Then why aren't they using it now?
PSX games were already weighing in at multiple CDs, not the case with the current generation (there are some games with 2 SL DVDs, which could've been put on 1 DL DVD).
Final Fantasy VII was on 4 CDs 3 years before the PS2 launched. Anyone who claimed DVD was unecessary had no basis for argument.
Pseudo judo
Member
teh_pwn said:
Yes it does, it's on the second page.
"3Dc is designed to resolve these issues by going beyond the capabilities of DXTC, and offering efficient and effective compression of new types of texture data. Whereas DXTC is optimized for compressing 3- and 4-channel data formats, 3Dc focuses on 2-channel data formats. It is particularly effective at two increasingly common tasks – compressing normal maps, and packing multiple pieces of data into a single compressed texture."
What are you goin on about? We're talking about Enchant Arm here, check the thread title incase you're not sure. This particular debate is about disk space on the 360 and is DVD enough or was it an oversight to not just go with an HD-DVD drive. What the fuck you're going on about with PS3 this, that & the other, only God and another PS3 troll could know.
High definition audio isn't a concern and I've already said why. Jade empire used textures for most of scenes and that issue has been adressed already as well. The CG cut scenes were few and short comparitively and if there's not enough room on 360 on disk one? Hello disk number 2!
Heh...
Environment geometry complexity, and character model complexity's gone up at least 10x. Add high-rez textures, voice-overs, etc, etc. and you get the picture GT6(if it's as packed as gt4) would probably take 4-5dvds, assuming their assets scale-up in detail. Such a game's basically impossible in dvd.
Just because a few shortish pc fps or fps that recycle alot of content/vegetation have had no problem while using assets of a lower quality than next-gen consoles does not mean next-gen consoles do not need better media.
For many games I'm sure there's no problem, but there are several for which it'd could get to be a problem.
Environment geometry complexity, and character model complexity's gone up at least 10x. Add high-rez textures, voice-overs, etc, etc. and you get the picture GT6(if it's as packed as gt4) would probably take 4-5dvds, assuming their assets scale-up in detail. Such a game's basically impossible in dvd.
Just because a few shortish pc fps or fps that recycle alot of content/vegetation have had no problem while using assets of a lower quality than next-gen consoles does not mean next-gen consoles do not need better media.
For many games I'm sure there's no problem, but there are several for which it'd could get to be a problem.
The Abominable Snowman
Member
WTF?Divus Masterei said:
so, you're saying racing games will be the equivalent of at least 36GB of data with compression
bullshit.
I don't see it saying that these compression techniques are vastly superior to all others.
This is a forum. I explained my distaste in X360's choice in media. That's how these forum things work. Someone bring up a topic, and you discuss it.
There's loads (ie more than a GB) of video of scenes that appear real time but are actually videos. There's a whole of bunch of them for every character.
That doesn't matter. It's a faulty analogy. Morrowing came on a CD on PC, DVD on Xbox. There's no media. Console games can have like 60-90 tracks of audio, cutscenes and whatnot. PC games don't and they're unpacked nicely to a HDD. You're comparison would only work if console games did not have this much media and there was enough resources to heavily decompress game data on the fly.
It may not use all available space, but developers surely will take advantage of it. You've got the space, why not put in more video. Why not increase the clarity?
PC games do not compare.
They are. Almost every PS2 game is over 2-3 GB. Way more than a CD. Just like BR games will be way over a DVD.
Look at a game like LOTR ported over to GC. The video is absolutely terrible.
I would agree that DVD9 is in better position than CDs were back when PS2 was released. But I don't think enough space for the next 6 years for a cutting edge machine like X360.
The Abominable Snowman said:
I'm saying gt4-esque racing games with 100s upon 100s of different cars and dozens upon dozens of tracks will probably go that high.
GT4, IIRC, basically fills a dl-DVD, scale textures up from ps2-lvl to next-gen lvl, car models from 4~k(IIRC) to 80+k polys, tracks from a few 100k polys to millions of polys, and with HD rather than low-res-ps2 textures all over, and we begin to see the picture.
The capacity argument seems a non-issue like the load time one. We've done multi-disc before. We do multi-disc for movies. A lot of gamers swap games in a single session, and it's not like a multi-disc game will have you swapping every few hours. IF a game need multiple DVDs, deal with it. It's a total non-issue in my opinion. PEACE.
And reading up on 3Dc compression, it appears to be texture compression in respect to RAM capacity, and not ROM capacity.
This makes sense as ATi has almost nothing to do with the ROMs, but everything to do with RAM and textures with respect to capacity and bandwidth.
I'm not entirely sure, I'm still looking.
Yeah, I don't see it as a huge issue, it's just hurts X360 a little bit. In big budget games like RPGs could easily use multiple discs.
In other types of games, that not the case. X360 is going to be very powerful, and I'd hate to see it have to scale down PS3 games because of space issues.
This makes sense as ATi has almost nothing to do with the ROMs, but everything to do with RAM and textures with respect to capacity and bandwidth.
I'm not entirely sure, I'm still looking.
Yeah, I don't see it as a huge issue, it's just hurts X360 a little bit. In big budget games like RPGs could easily use multiple discs.
In other types of games, that not the case. X360 is going to be very powerful, and I'd hate to see it have to scale down PS3 games because of space issues.
The Abominable Snowman
Member
Question: The GC featured technology that left texture and model and audio data compressed on disk and decompressed on the fly. FWIR, the XBox 369 will require audio at least to be compressed with the custom XMA(?) codec and will push ATi's new compression algorithm that encourages bump/normal mapping.
With all that, why do people even fear that games like Racers would go over 1 disc? I could understand if it had many cinematics, but they don't. Needed data can be uncompressed and left sitting on the HD until needed, if the X360 does indeed support caching
Games not heavy on cinematics will be just fine. Even 6.5GB of data isn't that big of a nut crunch all things considered.
With all that, why do people even fear that games like Racers would go over 1 disc? I could understand if it had many cinematics, but they don't. Needed data can be uncompressed and left sitting on the HD until needed, if the X360 does indeed support caching
Games not heavy on cinematics will be just fine. Even 6.5GB of data isn't that big of a nut crunch all things considered.
Kleegamefan said:
Oblivion will probably require the HDD because it has all the state information that it has to put somewhere to maintain a persistant world..but other games will probably just take longer. Like PC games of old where you could do a minimum install and run the content off the CD.
If we are gonna end up with multidisc 360 games (seems like we are) I wish MS would let us install them onto the hard drive...not gonna happen i know but i wish they would anyway.
Guy LeDouche
Banned
I really hope GT5 has 20+ cars like the GT Vision video has, too.Divus Masterei said:
Pseudo judo
Member
It's about f'n time. I had to beat you over the head exessively with that link before you bothered to really read it. If you are reading it you know that it is considerably different and better then current compression tech.teh_pwn said:
SolidSnakex
Member
Guy LeDouche said:
It will, that was the idea of the vision to show that its no longer going to be 6 cars but upwards of 20 on the track at once. That'd be in addition to the damage and whatever new style of racing they decide to add in this time (likely superbike). It's one of the games that I definetly think will be on a BR.
I'm very tired and busy at the moment, so if I come off as an ass I'm sorry. What I read was at wikipedia. I skimmed your link last night.
I'm not a PS3 fanboy. I'm one of those people that will defend Fable against that group of people that just has to remind everyone in every Fable thread that it's terrible.
Agent Icebeezy
Welcome beautful toddler, Madison Elizabeth, to the horde!
Not to derail the thread, but will this work on the 360? I don't use it anymore and it appears perfect for it.
Linksys Wireless-G USB 802.11G Network Adapter
USB 2.0 as well
Linksys Wireless-G USB 802.11G Network Adapter
USB 2.0 as well
Pseudo judo
Member
teh_pwn said:
I've never heard of wikipedia until just now. I did a search to find it and what type of info you were reading considering the link I gave you was to the white pages directly from ATI. Good stuff there. It linked to an article that said this about 3Dc...
'nuff said.
Pseudo judo
Member
:rolls eyes: I'm sure among internet gurus such as yourself this equates to being a 30 year old virgin.bitwise said:
Guy LeDouche
Banned
I have the gaming one. You spend 2 minutes setting it up on your PC and then its done. Mine works with PS2 or XBox.RuGalz said:
Why is MS forcing all of the developers to have the games in HD mode? If the performance increase/decrease is that much of a factor then it should be left up to the developer if the game will support HD resolutions, right?
In PSM, it was mentioned that Sony will discuss HD displays with the game developers and then come to a conclusion as to what is best for the developers. This sounds like something MS should do instead of forcing that every game HAS to be in HD. As long as the image quality is nice, why push for every game to be in HD?
Can anyone shed some light on this? I don't have a HDTV and would like to know what all of these mandatory requirements will mean as far as image quality for people that own regular TVs.
In PSM, it was mentioned that Sony will discuss HD displays with the game developers and then come to a conclusion as to what is best for the developers. This sounds like something MS should do instead of forcing that every game HAS to be in HD. As long as the image quality is nice, why push for every game to be in HD?
Can anyone shed some light on this? I don't have a HDTV and would like to know what all of these mandatory requirements will mean as far as image quality for people that own regular TVs.
Models and Textures on the 360 won't be a problem (especially if things move to the more procedural side of things).
Texture data compresses very well, as does model data.
Just out of curiosity, for the people that claim models and textures need a bajillion gigs of space, how big do you think these files are?
Texture data compresses very well, as does model data.
Just out of curiosity, for the people that claim models and textures need a bajillion gigs of space, how big do you think these files are?
wikipedia is an open encyclopedia, meaning that members of the site can edit the entries.
I've seen some entries where words like color switch between color/colour as if there's some sort of American/British English war, heh.
Suprisingly, it has a lot of good stuff in it. Thanks to them, I was able to do a CRC algorithm in powerPC assembly with no problems.
However, they are not a good source for political information, as you would expect.
What I don't understand about 3Dc is when it talks about compression, is it referring to the space used on say a DVD or the space used on RAM. The RAM part is definitely needed. PC games are using enormous amounts of RAM...but yeah I don't know if that compares to consoles.
I've seen some entries where words like color switch between color/colour as if there's some sort of American/British English war, heh.
Suprisingly, it has a lot of good stuff in it. Thanks to them, I was able to do a CRC algorithm in powerPC assembly with no problems.
However, they are not a good source for political information, as you would expect.
What I don't understand about 3Dc is when it talks about compression, is it referring to the space used on say a DVD or the space used on RAM. The RAM part is definitely needed. PC games are using enormous amounts of RAM...but yeah I don't know if that compares to consoles.
Pseudo judo
Member
It's like watching film on a standard 480i tv, sure you won't loose out on anything that counts content wise but the quality of that content will be notably less and hence the quality of the experience would be lessoned. Think of it as the diffrence between 5.1 and stereo.Hotsuma said:
Pseudo judo said:
Thanks for the response. It still sounds like an iffish idea to force developers to support HD resolutions when the developers can get more out of the machine by not having to follow this request. MS should ease back on this HD resolutions only talk and let the developers do what is in the best interest for their games.
Multiple disks. Yeah, well try to play fighting game on multi disks. Pain in the ass is what you will get. Same with sports, driving, GTA etc. How many disks you would need for a RPG like FF I could only imagine. And in 3-4 years it will get much-much worse, because they will know hw and will get MUCH better picture. Br gives Sony advantage, no denying. They can give much better quality sound for audiofiles, tons of movies etc.
Shogmaster
Member
bycha said:
If you think next gen fighting games will need multiple DVDs, you're on fucking crack (or just retarded. You choose).
Unless the stupid SOB has 1 hour HD ending FMV per character or some other stupid shit, they will never go near the capacity of DVD9. The same with racing and sports games. None of these genres ever had enough story content to fill their respective media of their times.
It's the games with tons of story (usually driven by gobs of FMVs) that need multiple discs.
Shogmaster said:
I guess retarded guys on fucking crack from Tecmo just love to whine, because they been whining about how hard it is to squeeze DOA4 into DVD9 so loud that even I heard em...
I mean COMON guys. GT4 is using DVD9. X360 is at the VERY LEAST 20 times more powerful graphically than ps2. Ring any bells?
Myst IV (PC, 2004), by the way, utilizes 2хDVD9.
(But I guess for people without perfomance PC at home this one is hard to understand.)
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