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[BigJonsson]

This should rock..

Spoiler

Botany Bay and Khan were just discussed by the augments!!!!

 

[Ryu]

It was actually a nice 3-part story if I do say so. This show became a whole lot better thanks to the changes. They even made LOTS of references to the distant future. The Soong robotics line, the mention of the Briar patch, and of course the line about Khan was also pretty sweet although predictable. There was also lots of paralells between this show and Star Trek II -- for example -- the main son of Soong was hurt on one side of his face -- just like Khan and he self destructed his ship... just like Khan! Just pretty interesting. The vulcan lived in this story however.

 

[BigJonsson]

Haha

I liked what Soong said at the end

 

[Black Deatha]

That was a great episode, Enterprise is really kicking ass.

~Black Deatha

 

[ManaByte]

Next Week:

Star Trek Enterprise III: The Search for T'Pol.

 

[Phoenix]

Already the show is beginning to shape up into something that is worth watching

 

[LakeEarth]

Briar Patch sounds so familiar... but I can't place it. When in the future of Trek does that system come to play?

 

[Shouta]

I need to get these 3 episodes to watch @_@.

 

[Phoenix]

Briar Patch sounds so familiar... but I can't place it. When in the future of Trek does that system come to play?

Star Trek Insurrection.

 

[maharg]

Was that in Klingon space? I hated that movie and have put it out of my memory, but this seems like a strange thing to refer to. I guess in that point in time, Klingon space practically == federation space.

I was disappointed in the lack of massacre. START THE WAR.

 

[UltimateMarioMan]

*Raises fist* KAHNNN!! (Sorry I had to do it :lol )

 

[LakeEarth]

Star Trek Insurrection.

Oh, it was the planet that made you immortal?

 

[Ryu]

The planet was inside the Briar Patch.

 

[radios shipping overview]

Great ep! I started watching this series with this season's premiere with the hope of it turning into something great, and it looks like it's living up to that. Most of the characters besides T'Pol, Trip, Archer, and Phlox are still faceless to me (and I could use a lot more familiarity with Archer), but that's to be expected with only a few eps of a show like this.

Soong was GREAT! I loved the development he and his 'children' went through, and I liked how his son started to see eugenics from a normal human perspective. The cybernetics bit at the end felt a little rushed and heavy-handed, but it was neat all the same. So much fanservice! I love it! I got all giddy when I saw the Bird of Prey leave a warp trail like the ones in the TOS movies.

 

[Mejilan]

What ever happened with the whole Nazi thing that everyone hated?

 

[maharg]

What ever happened with the whole Nazi thing that everyone hated?

Reset button.

 

[Phoenix]

I got all giddy when I saw the Bird of Prey leave a warp trail like the ones in the TOS movies.

I thought I noticed that, but imagined I was seeing things.

 

[ShadowRed]

While I believe the show has gotten better this season this arc really pissed me off. First these augments have started a war that killed millions, and during the show repeatedly disobay Soong, yet he still thinks they are good. Then in the last part he is shown trying to manipulate the genome of the frozen augments because he knows they have an agression problem. If he knows this then why is he in leagues with beings he knows are too aggressive? It makes no sense to me other than the writers not wanting to have Spiner play a really bad guy so they concocted this sorta good sorta bad character. It woud have been better had they made him out to believe that the agression was due to their superior nature and thus they were justified. He should have totaly believed in the augments right to rule, rather at every tur tell them not to kill and make excuses for them. This show actually makes a claim that the augments could be fixed and thus making the future Star Treks complete ban on eugenics stupid. If Soong had perfected a way to get rid og the aggresion that cause the augments to want to control humanity then there is no problem.

 

[Phoenix]

While I believe the show has gotten better this season this arc really pissed me off. First these augments have started a war that killed millions, and during the show repeatedly disobay Soong, yet he still thinks they are good. Then in the last part he is shown trying to manipulate the genome of the frozen augments because he knows they have an agression problem. If he knows this then why is he in leagues with beings he knows are too aggressive?

I don't believe he thinks they are good. I think he starts to realize that they are too aggressive and then begins planning to engineer that out of them. Remember that he considers them his children and like any parent he deals with their behavior despite the fact that they are nuts

This show actually makes a claim that the augments could be fixed and thus making the future Star Treks complete ban on eugenics stupid. If Soong had perfected a way to get rid og the aggresion that cause the augments to want to control humanity then there is no problem.

Eventually someone may find a way to make human cloning less wasteful/immoral in terms of the number of fetuses you have to kill to get one that might work - but that doesn't mean that we'd necessarily want to remove a ban on human cloning. There are a wide variety of reasons why banning changes to the human species would be banned.

 

[videogamer]

Eventually someone may find a way to make human cloning less wasteful/immoral in terms of the number of fetuses you have to kill to get one that might work - but that doesn't mean that we'd necessarily want to remove a ban on human cloning. There are a wide variety of reasons why banning changes to the human species would be banned.

link?

 

[Phoenix]

link?

Nope it was in Popular Science and Time last year. You may be able to do a search on either of those sites for cloning and find it. Should be around the time Dolly was born and people were talking about what that would mean for the possibilities of human cloning.

 

[videogamer]

Nope it was in Popular Science and Time last year. You may be able to do a search on either of those sites for cloning and find it. Should be around the time Dolly was born and people were talking about what that would mean for the possibilities of human cloning.

They generally use pre-fetus stage cells for cloning purposes.

 

[Phoenix]

They generally use pre-fetus stage cells for cloning purposes.

The point being that if you look at how many dead sheep fetuses the cloning team went through to get to Dolly (who died young), you'll kill plenty of human fetuses before you get to a human child.

 

[videogamer]

The point being that if you look at how many dead sheep fetuses the cloning team went through to get to Dolly (who died young), you'll kill plenty of human fetuses before you get to a human child.

They really aren't "killing" the fetuses. It's more like a spontaneous abortion because the fetus is not developing normally.

 

[Phoenix]

They really aren't "killing" the fetuses. It's more like a spontaneous abortion because the fetus is not developing normally.

You'll have to clarify the difference between "killing" and "spontaneous abortion" (which is a term that I have never heard before) before I can respond to that.

 

[videogamer]

You'll have to clarify the difference between "killing" and "spontaneous abortion" (which is a term that I have never heard before) before I can respond to that.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001488.htm

I have also heard my cell bio professor use it to describe early stage end to development due to developmental flaws.

 

[Phoenix]

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001488.htm

I have also heard my cell bio professor use it to describe early stage end to development due to developmental flaws.

There is a distinct difference between what happened with much of Dolly's kin and a miscarriage. There were many that were miscarried and a considerable number that were euthanised/killed. In either event it is considered ethically irresponsible to submit human life to such 'experimentation'.

 

[videogamer]

There is a distinct difference between what happened with much of Dolly's kin and a miscarriage. There were many that were miscarried and a considerable number that were euthanised/killed. In either event it is considered ethically irresponsible to submit human life to such 'experimentation'.

If it is a fetus (the term you used in your post way up there), than it wouldn't be euthanised, because it is still inside the womb. Animals that have been delivered are certainly not fetuses.

 

[Phoenix]

If it is a fetus (the term you used in your post way up there), than it wouldn't be euthanised, because it is still inside the womb. Animals that have been delivered are certainly not fetuses.

Yes, they were killed - inside the womb - the article was clear on this point. They were injected with something while inside the womb and killed THEN labor was induced and they were stillborn.

 

[videogamer]

Yes, they were killed - inside the womb - the article was clear on this point. They were injected with something while inside the womb and killed THEN labor was induced and they were stillborn.

Fine. But was the mother's life could possibly be in danger. If not, they could just let the fetus "die" from "natural causes".

Edit:

There are a wide variety of reasons why banning changes to the human species would be banned.

What does "banning changes to the human species" have to do with a ban on "cloning"?

 

[Phoenix]

Fine. But was the mother's life could possibly be in danger. If not, they could just let the fetus "die" from "natural causes".

The reason that they gave (and that I agreed with) was that they saw no reason to allow that suffering when it wasn't necessary and unethical considering the circumstances.

Edit:

What does "banning changes to the human species" have to do with a ban on "cloning"?

In Trek that ban is being viewed as 'stupid' by some. With human cloning that ban is being viewed 'stupid' by some. Neither is really stupid because there are other more ethical concerns that outweigh (or at least appear to outweigh) the benefits of genetic alteration or cloning.

 

[videogamer]

In Trek that ban is being viewed as 'stupid' by some. With human cloning that ban is being viewed 'stupid' by some. Neither is really stupid because there are other more ethical concerns that outweigh (or at least appear to outweigh) the benefits of genetic alteration or cloning.

The point that I don't follow is:

you talk about banning cloning, but then you mention genetic alterations. Cloning attempts the duplication of the genome, not a modification of it.

As for the ban: it depends on what kind of ban it is.

 

[ShadowRed]

The reason that they gave (and that I agreed with) was that they saw no reason to allow that suffering when it wasn't necessary and unethical considering the circumstances.



In Trek that ban is being viewed as 'stupid' by some. With human cloning that ban is being viewed 'stupid' by some. Neither is really stupid because there are other more ethical concerns that outweigh (or at least appear to outweigh) the benefits of genetic alteration or cloning.

Please it's obvious that they banned eugenics because they, the eugenics/augments tried to take over the world and enslave the normal people. The reason they, the eugenics tried to take over was because there was a defective gene that made them too agressive. Soong had discovered a was to limit this so there goes the reason to farther ban the eugenics. They didn't do it because they could handle that the ethics killing imperfect fetus.

 

[DarthWoo]

They should have followed the model of Exosquad. Just make your genetic superbeing look really different than everyone else so that they can't mix in too easily, and put them to work on Mars where they can't hurt anyone. That's the best way to do it.

 

[Phoenix]

The point that I don't follow is:

you talk about banning cloning, but then you mention genetic alterations. Cloning attempts the duplication of the genome, not a modification of it.

As for the ban: it depends on what kind of ban it is.

You might want to reread the post that this was a response to.

 

[Phoenix]

Please it's obvious that they banned eugenics because they, the eugenics/augments tried to take over the world and enslave the normal people. The reason they, the eugenics tried to take over was because there was a defective gene that made them too agressive. Soong had discovered a was to limit this so there goes the reason to farther ban the eugenics. They didn't do it because they could handle that the ethics killing imperfect fetus.

You're replying to a post that has nothing to do with your post. Hammy and I went down the road of cloning in a way that is unrelated in any way to your original post.

 

[videogamer]

You might want to reread the post that this was a response to.

what does this quote have to do with human cloning?

This show actually makes a claim that the augments could be fixed and thus making the future Star Treks complete ban on eugenics stupid. If Soong had perfected a way to get rid og the aggresion that cause the augments to want to control humanity then there is no problem.

 

[DarthWoo]

I missed a lot of Deep Space Nine, but

Spoiler

wasn't Dr. Bashir an augment? (or whatever the name they had for them then was)

 

[Phoenix]

what does this quote have to do with human cloning?

This show actually makes a claim that the augments could be fixed and thus making the future Star Treks complete ban on eugenics stupid. If Soong had perfected a way to get rid og the aggresion that cause the augments to want to control humanity then there is no problem.

...

Eventually someone may find a way to make human cloning less wasteful/immoral in terms of the number of fetuses you have to kill to get one that might work - but that doesn't mean that we'd necessarily want to remove a ban on human cloning. There are a wide variety of reasons why banning changes to the human species would be banned.

The cloning argument on serves to illustrate a similar ethical issue which shows why humanity wouldn't want to suddenly take up the genetic modification torch just because they had resovled an issue with aggressiveness in the eugenics. Star Trek is good about restating the same sorts of themes from series to series and this one in TOS was "we played God, it didn't work and if it did should we do it anyway". I am assuming of course that you've seen the original episode of TOS where Khan is involved.

 

[videogamer]

The cloning argument on serves to illustrate a similar ethical issue which shows why humanity wouldn't want to suddenly take up the genetic modification torch just because they had resovled an issue with aggressiveness in the eugenics. Star Trek is good about restating the same sorts of themes from series to series and this one in TOS was "we played God, it didn't work and if it did should we do it anyway". I am assuming of course that you've seen the original episode of TOS where Khan is involved.

edit: i get it now you are trying to make some comparison. However, we do no know where exactly you stand on cloning.

 

[Phoenix]

I missed a lot of Deep Space Nine, but

Spoiler

wasn't Dr. Bashir an augment? (or whatever the name they had for them then was)

Yep you are correct (somewhat - they were more specifically engineered in certain areas), and during this series of episodes they go through the whole cycle of oh they are cool and so much smarter than us and can see so much of the details we should use them to oh wait, they really can't see the forest from the trees and they really aren't what was expected after all.

I can go back through the history and list all of the times the ethical issue of 'species manipulation' comes up. Its come up more than a few times.

 

[Phoenix]

edit: i get it now you are trying to make some comparison. However, we do no know where exactly you stand on cloning.

Not really. Don't draw any specifics from this particular debate. If you really want to know what I feel about cloning spawn off another thread