Everyone must play MGS3

kumanoki said:
Dude, listen to yourself. I understand your point, but you sound like a soccer mom.
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I know.. I'm not trying to sound like I care. I'm not posing the question because I'm worried about the effect it might have on the children. I'm asking it because I want to know if people think and/or know whether Kojima realizes the appeal of his games. Because if he doesn't, this is me officially sneering in his face.
 
Soul4ger said:
I know.. I'm not trying to sound like I care. I'm not posing the question because I'm worried about the effect it might have on the children. I'm asking it because I want to know if people think and/or know whether Kojima realizes the appeal of his games. Because if he doesn't, this is me officially sneering in his face.
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Have you finished MGS3 yet, by any chance?
 
dark10x said:
Have you finished MGS3 yet, by any chance?
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No, I haven't. Like I said, it's not entirely related to this thread. I finished the other games, though, and I was just wondering on this.
 
Soul4ger said:
No, I haven't. Like I said, it's not entirely related to this thread. I finished the other games, though, and I was just wondering on this.
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Well...

(involves a boss fight - don't read if you wish for that fight to remain unspoiled)

It hardly negates what you've said, but there is an interesting moment in the game involving the "battle" with "The Sorrow". You don't really fight him (he's not alive anyways, which is explained), but you are forced to face every single enemy you've killed in the game. You don't actually fight them, but you are forced to wade through a river (with a storm around you), and simply make your way through the spirits of those that you have killed. He basically forces you to look back on what you have done. Like I said, it hardly applies to your comments, but it did spring to mind upon reading them for some reason.
 
Actually, that's an interesting idea. I was going to say, if you were going to decry violence and all its trappings
wouldn't it be worthwhile to make players PAY for their actions, instead of just giving them a bad score when the game is over?
But that sounds pretty cool. I won't be getting MGS3 until Christmas, I'm even more excited than I was (very excited).
 
Heh...

He even includes the animals (all the way down to the various fish you might have killed) in all of this! It really does involve EVERY enemy you've fought up to that point and, depending on how many you've killed, it could take a while...
 
It just seems like it promotes violence more than it expresses a healthy message.
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I don't want to sound too harsh, but seriously, who fucking cares.

Anyway, the MGS series is one of the few "military"-like games that advice you to not kill your enemies, or at least give you the option to not kill *anyone*. First in MGS2, with Snake only starting with a tranq gun and getting repeated messages from Otacon to not kill the soldiers(which, incidently, I disliked, because it seemed like Kojima had pussified Snake), and now in MGS3's Virtuous Mission, although there's a deeper, more logical reasoning behind it.
 
jett said:
I don't want to sound too harsh, but seriously, who fucking cares.

Anyway, the MGS series is one of the few "military"-like games that advice you to not kill your enemies, or at least give you the option to not kill *anyone*. First in MGS2, with Snake only starting with a tranq gun and getting repeated messages from Otacon to not kill the soldiers(which, incidently, I disliked, because it seemed like Kojima had pussified Snake), and now in MGS3's Virtuous Mission, although there's a deeper, more logical reasoning behind it.
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Well my thought process really focused on Kojima more than the people playing it. In my mind, he was either, (A) ridiculous dumb and naive or (B) completely aware that people enjoyed playing his game to fuck people up, and continued to cater to that, in spite of having an anti-war message.
 
dark10x said:
Heh...

He even includes the animals (all the way down to the various fish you might have killed) in all of this! It really does involve EVERY enemy you've fought up to that point and, depending on how many you've killed, it could take a while...
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Not true,
it doesn't include the animals you killed/captured/ate. The river is always filled with fishes.
 
jett said:
Not true,
it doesn't include the animals you killed/captured/ate. The river is always filled with fishes.
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Whoops, I suppose you're right. I just remember seeing some animals. The fish during that scene sure as hell didn't seem alive, though.
 
Soul4ger said:
Well my thought process really focused on Kojima more than the people playing it. In my mind, he was either, (A) ridiculous dumb and naive or (B) completely aware that people enjoyed playing his game to fuck people up, and continued to cater to that, in spite of having an anti-war message.
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I'm sure Kojima isn't stupid, and knows that gamers enjoy killing virtual people. The game may have an anti-war message, but after all, you *are* playing as a freaking green beret. :P
 
dark10x said:
Whoops, I suppose you're right. I just remember seeing some animals. The fish during that scene sure as hell didn't seem alive, though.
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That's beacause they aren't. :P It just adds to the overall mood of the scene, I guess. I always see a bazillion fishes in the fight, even though I killed, at the most, five during the course of the game.
 
jett said:
I'm sure Kojima isn't stupid, and knows that gamers enjoy killing virtual people. The game may have an anti-war message, but after all, you *are* playing as a freaking green beret. :P
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He thought MGS2 was a good idea. I rest my case.
 
Kojima's overall message is brought out in the series' narrative, not the gameplay. While you can play MGS3 however you want, be it a killing machine or a humanitarian, it's the story of the series' characters who you're supposed to learn something from. In all the Metal Gear games going back to the MSX there are soldiers and mercenaries who are searching for the ultimate battle that basically defines their existence, but that will inevitably lead to their demise.

Big Boss, Grey Fox, Liquid Snake, the members of Fox Hound, Solidus, Dead Cell, The Boss, and the Cobra Unit, are all fighting for one reason or another but in the end fate will catch up with them and they'll be consumed. I think of it in terms of "might begets might."

As has been subtley and not so subtley at times implied; this will be Sanke's fate as well, so long as he continues to fight.

In that I think Kojima does a much better job of preaching against violence and war than his more overt, "Nukes are bad, War is bad."
 
First in MGS2, with Snake only starting with a tranq gun and getting repeated messages from Otacon to not kill the soldiers(which, incidently, I disliked, because it seemed like Kojima had pussified Snake),
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The only comment to that effect I remember from Otacon was specifically directed at the US Marines who were manning the ship when Snake first got aboard. When the Russians took the ship over the situation changed and I don't recall any messages from Otacon not to kill the Russian soldiers.
 
I'm asking it because I want to know if people think and/or know whether Kojima realizes the appeal of his games.
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The Anti-war message in Metal Gear actually makes the plot a lot deeper, and allows him to twist certain things around and make stuff not so black and white.

I mean Clancy games have degenerated pretty much to a state of Find the Enemy/Terrorist and kill him - see R6-4 trailer for action movie cliche city. Serve your country, etc..etc..etc..

Metal Gear Solid 3 goes a bit further beyond a general "war is bad" type of plot though, as it really
makes you think about why Snake is doing what he's doing and what is he doing it for? and it also questions the concept of what is an enemy.

It's tempting to even write about the ending, but you have to see it for yourself.

I think first and foremost Metal Gear was designed for himself really, as a lot of it reflects Kojima's love of movies. And really at the end of the day he's still just a guy that likes movies who happens to get paid to make what he likes to see, and not some monk or something that sits around all day contemplating the meaning of world peace.

But at the same time he does listen to critics though, as there were a lot of things in MGS3 that struck me as stuff he put in to appease his fans.
 
You are absouletely right. However, I am having problem selling the idea of MGS3 is an awesome game to my friends. When I tell them MGS3 is the freaking best game of the year, 9 out 10 would say they don't like MGS2. I just don't get it. I am trying to sell this game objectively by explaining each elements of the game like the art direction, technology, cut scene, gun fight action, and AI, they are fucking top notch. I just don't know why ppl don't want to give this game a chance and always have the prejudice that all they can get from a MGS game is cut scene. I mean fucking come on, even though the level design of MGS2 is not that great but some of the boss fights and the last 2 hrs of the game are simply classic gaming moment.
 
i waded through that fucking river like 4 times and it took like 15-20 minutes each time, slowly...slloooowwwlly wading through that water, avoiding all the souls. then i fucking radioed the major and he told me to die and take the revival pill. i thought there would have been a fucking fight at the end of the river! on my 5th time i just went underwater and drowned as fast as i could. what a creepy waste of time
 
talking head said:
i waded through that fucking river like 4 times and it took like 15-20 minutes each time, slowly...slloooowwwlly wading through that water, avoiding all the souls. then i fucking radioed the major and he told me to die and take the revival pill. i thought there would have been a fucking fight at the end of the river! on my 5th time i just went underwater and drowned as fast as i could. what a creepy waste of time
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Dude...go to the end, get killed by the sorrow, get the spirit camo...
 
8bit said:
Can you run around guns blazing instead of hiding in boxes this time around?
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Yes, it's easier than before to just kill every guard (because they stop coming after a while and the alert goes away). If that's the way you want to play this stealth game, fine. Personally, I think the camo index makes the stealth portions of the game more fun. There aren't a lot of "obvious" hiding spots in MGS3 (like the lockers in MGS2, for example), so you have to use your imagination more when avoiding the enemy. You can't just leave an area either, the alert will still be on. Oh and...

knife >>> guns
 
My point is that I don't want to play a stealth game, I don't like them.
I'm just curious about the point Marconelly made ("even those who didn't quite liked MGS, or who hated MGS2, even those who hate stealth gameplay in general").
 
The reason why I stopped playing the second one was because of long ass cut scenes. I just wanted to play the game.. not watch a movie.
 
trippingmartian said:
The knife seemed to be a very effective last resort weapon to use against
The Boss.
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I had some trouble with
The Boss the first couple of times...tried to throw lots of grenades her way, tried to sneak up on her (very hard, since she keeps moving around so damn much), tried to use claymore mines, tried to counter her CQC (without fully understand which button I was supposed to press and when)...until I realize the easiest method. White camo index, lie down, use sniper rifle + thermal googles, press the view button plus R1+R2 to look above the grass. And just keep shooting. I mean, she never even found me...it felt kind of cheap, to be honest. Maybe it's different on higher difficulties though.
 
Kiriku said:
White camo index, lie down, use sniper rifle + thermal googles, press the view button plus R1+R2 to look above the grass. And just keep shooting. I mean, she never even found me...it felt kind of cheap, to be honest. Maybe it's different on higher difficulties though.
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I used that method quite a bit, though I was having a bit of trouble as the swaying flowers were registering a bit too much heat on the thermal goggles so it was tough for me to spot the enemy at times.
 
Kiriku said:
I had some trouble with
The Boss the first couple of times...tried to throw lots of grenades her way, tried to sneak up on her (very hard, since she keeps moving around so damn much), tried to use claymore mines, tried to counter her CQC (without fully understand which button I was supposed to press and when)...until I realize the easiest method. White camo index, lie down, use sniper rifle + thermal googles, press the view button plus R1+R2 to look above the grass. And just keep shooting. I mean, she never even found me...it felt kind of cheap, to be honest. Maybe it's different on higher difficulties though.
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That's strange, were you playing in easy?
Everytime I take a shot she "finds" me.
 
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