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[nkarafo]

What would you do if you saw some of your family members, toddlers, elderly people and mentally disabled already sitting there in the blender before you vote?

Honestly? I don't know. I'm on my keyboard right now and not in such a massively distressing situation. All i can say is that i would want to jump in with them. If it was my family i would probably just jump in by instinct and wouldn't think about it. But there is a high chance i would chicken out in most other instances. Or maybe my mental state would allow me to go fuck it, yolo. I just don't know for sure and neither do you. We can only speculate what we would want to do from the comfort of our safety.

Would you vote red and send them to their deaths (contributing to red winning) and saving your selfish ass?

If i knew my family and friends pressed blue, i would press it as well most definitely and hope for a miracle. Again i think instincts would kick in and i would try to avoid thinking about probabilities and math.

But if i had the chance, i would try to convince them not to press it.

Because with the button vote you KNOW that some people will vote blue no matter what, and you are ok with them dying.

LOL, No i'm not OK with them dying. When did i ever say that? GTFO.

 

[Bojji]

Honestly? I don't know. I'm on my keyboard right now and not in such a massively distressing situation. All i can say is that i would want to jump in with them. If it was my family i would probably just jump in by instinct and wouldn't think about it. But there is a high chance i would chicken out in most other instances. Or maybe my mental state would allow me to go fuck it, yolo. I just don't know for sure and neither do you. We can only speculate what we would want to do from the comfort of our safety.


If i knew my family and friends pressed blue, i would press it as well most definitely and hope for a miracle. Again i think instincts would kick in and i would try to avoid thinking about probabilities and math.

But if i had the chance, i would try to convince them not to press it.


LOL, No i'm not OK with them dying. When did i ever say that? GTFO.

But blue people will die if red voters win. And you will be one of them (increasing that chance).

 

[nkarafo]

But blue people will die if red voters win. And you will be one of them (increasing that chance).

Blue voters will die anyway because i believe the chances are very low (20% at best if i'm generous) so my 1 vote will not change that.

 

[Bojji]

Blue voters will die anyway because i believe the chances are very low (20% at best if i'm generous) so my 1 vote will not change that.

Outside of gaf (with zero female representation) polls show otherwise.

When you change the question to be far more sinister, you get different poll results

But answer is pretty much the same.

 

[nkarafo]

Outside of gaf (with zero female representation) polls show otherwise.

And i say these polls only show what people would want to do while thinking about it as a fun thought experiment. Not what they would actually do under the stress and stakes of this scenario being real.

 

[Bojji]

And i say these polls only show what people would want to do while thinking about it as a fun thought experiment. Not what they would actually do under the stress and stakes of this scenario being real.

It's the same about pressing red. You can act like edgelord and say that you only care about yourself, but if situation like this happened in real life you would have some time (for example 60 seconds) to think about the answer and thoughts about all those people pressing blue (your family and friends) might persuade you to try to save everyone.

 

[AJUMP23]

How I would push the red button.

 

[nkarafo]

It's the same about pressing red. You can act like edgelord and say that you only care about yourself, but if situation like this happened in real life you would have some time (for example 60 seconds) to think about the answer and thoughts about all those people pressing blue (your family and friends) might persuade you to try to save everyone.

Maybe. I guess it depends on what your brain will prioritize at that moment. I believe seeing your family in danger (like in the blender example) would make your instincts of saving your loved ones kick in. But if you were alone in a room, with nobody other than yourself, would make your own survival instincts kick in. I believe the vast majority of people would try and save themselves at that moment, which also means trying otherwise yourself (no matter how badly you want to) is futile and basically you are only deciding whether you also want to die with the blues or not.

If this is real we already lost is what i'm saying. Blues are doomed.

 

[Grildon Tundy]

The question is about private vote. Meaning you cannot discuss it with anyone, and everyone must vote, incl. people who cannot even comprehend the question. So there WILL be blue voters (some even in your family) and you WILL be contributing to their death if you vote red and red wins.

That's not how I understood the original question. US presidential elections are private, but we are allowed to discuss them.

 

[epicurius-seven]

Outside of gaf (with zero female representation) polls show otherwise.

When you change the question to be far more sinister, you get different poll results

But answer is pretty much the same.

These reframed polls are like bad horror sequels.
"So, killer how many more d'ya wanna chip?"
"But.. the door was open-"
"Tell that to little Timmy... if you can find his FACE!"

 

[thefool]

 

[IDKFA]

I'm voting Red and so will my family. That guarantees our survival.

I'm not risking my the lives of my loved ones on a game of chance and the hope that 51% go blue.

 

[Wildebeest]

I'm voting Red and so will my family. That guarantees our survival.

I'm not risking my the lives of my loved ones on a game of chance and the hope that 51% go blue.

Red voters make so many assumptions that are not in the question. Other people I know will vote red for sure (even though discussion or coercion is never mentioned). My survival is guaranteed (effective immortality from pressing a button). If I press the red button Santa Claus will appear, pull down his pants and fart out unicorns holding game theory text books. There will be a big unicorn fart game theory party, also with balloons.
Blue voters just say, just get 50% and nothing bad happens.

 

[IDKFA]

Red voters make so many assumptions that are not in the question. Other people I know will vote red for sure (even though discussion or coercion is never mentioned). My survival is guaranteed (effective immortality from pressing a button). If I press the red button Santa Claus will appear, pull down his pants and fart out unicorns holding game theory text books. There will be a big unicorn fart game theory party, also with balloons.
Blue voters just say, just get 50% and nothing bad happens.

What assumptions?

If more than 50% go blue, everyone lives, but we have to be absolutely sure billions of people will vote blue.

If my family votes blue and only 49% of the population did the same, we're dead.

If we push red, it doesn't matter. We survive regardless of the outcome.

 

[Wildebeest]

What assumptions?

If more than 50% go blue, everyone lives, but we have to be absolutely sure billions of people will vote blue.

If my family votes blue and only 49% of the population did the same, we're dead.

If we push red, it doesn't matter. We survive regardless of the outcome.

There is nothing saying that if you push red your family will also. You could vote red and everyone you know could vote blue without any discussion possible. Nobody lives forever. Given that this vote happens for everyone on earth it is likely that many will die while deciding what button to push. Nowhere is it said what happens after. The godlike button maker could send all the survivors straight to personalized torture chambers. There is no guarantee other than surviving the outcome of the button push. Whatever that means.

 

[TheUnicornGuy]

I spoke to my kids about it today and they both said "why would anyone push blue, that's just dumb". I raised them right.

 

[Bojji]

What assumptions?

If more than 50% go blue, everyone lives, but we have to be absolutely sure billions of people will vote blue.

If my family votes blue and only 49% of the population did the same, we're dead.

If we push red, it doesn't matter. We survive regardless of the outcome.

You have no control over what people in your family will push.

But you can be 100% sure not all of them would push red.

 

[Boozeroony]

I spoke to my kids about it today and they both said "why would anyone push blue, that's just dumb". I raised them right.

Kids are assholes tbh.

 

[IDKFA]

Nobody lives forever.

Okay......but to guarantee survival you would have to push red.

The godlike button maker could send all the survivors straight to personalized torture chambers. There is no guarantee other than surviving the outcome of the button push. Whatever that means.

Right, but a warning that the survivors might be sent to a mass torture chamber isn't in the OP, so I'll still take my chances on Red.

You have no control over what people in your family will push.

My wife and son are smart enough to push red. I'm fine.

Team red all the way.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Pressing red is a valid and rational choice, ensuring self-preservation and opting out of the gamble. But it is also a vote for the death of the blues.

No one forced the blues to choose blue. They did so of their own free will knowing that every one of them could just choose red and survive. Choose to possibly not survive is an individual choice in a secret vote and it's kind of insane to try and blame other people for the choice they secretly make

 

[thief183]

I'm a good person, and I always assume everyone is a good person, in this case I was sure that 90% would have pressed the blue button, but I'm totally wrong and if I'll have to die cause I'm too optimistic, well I'm ok with it. Also, also I am still sure that in this type of situation Asian ppl will mostly press Blue due to their education (still can totally be wrong).

 

[xandaca]

Since I was quite active earlier in this thread in the red corner, I'll say that I hadn't considered that children would be included in the voting. Given they cannot be expected to understand the ramifications of their decision, or be able to untangle the slightly loaded phrasing of the proposition, I'd instead like to think I would vote blue on the basis that it is the responsibility of adults to protect children from the consequences of decisions they are not mature enough to make. Were the scenario involving adults only as I was originally thinking, however, I'd still be strongly in the red camp.

 

[Denton]

That's not how I understood the original question. US presidential elections are private, but we are allowed to discuss them.

Afaik that is how it was meant though. Obviously if you have long time, can discuss it and convince other people, huge part of the moral dilemma goes away.

 

[Denton]

Were the scenario involving adults only as I was originally thinking, however, I'd still be strongly in the red camp.

Even if it was adult only, there are still many adults who are decent people who are idealistic - and by going red you are ok with them dying. Yes, it is "their fault" for being idealistic but they would be dead nonetheless.

 

[EviLore]

The debate is going well elsewhere too

 

[Grildon Tundy]

From the guy who posted the currently-viral premise on Twitter:

Suddenly standing alone in the room, I begin by imagining humanity banding together and blue winning in a landslide, and I feel a rush of pride.

Red is the genocide button. Blue is the "save humanity from this nightmare" button.

I know what kind of person I am.

As my hand hovers over the blue button, I can't help but imagine a gun pointing at my head with a bullet in one of the chambers. I feel a surge of fear shoot through my body. Then I think about all the other people staring at the blue button and thinking the same thing. Surely some of those who initially decided to press blue will succumb to the fear. It starts to feel like a gun with two loaded chambers. A stronger pulse of terror.

The more I think about it, the more I worry about other people thinking about it. My heart races. Then I look at the red button—a gun with no bullets in it. A glorious feeling of relief washes over me. Will I hate myself forever if blue wins because enough others were better and braver than me? But don't I owe it to my family to protect myself? One vote won't change anything anyway, right? It's all irrelevant because the mammal I live in has already made up its mind.

I wince and press red.

I think this scenario is truer than a lot of people would want to admit.

 

[nkarafo]

Red voters make so many assumptions that are not in the question.

The godlike button maker could send all the survivors straight to personalized torture chambers. There is no guarantee other than surviving the outcome of the button push. Whatever that means.

Assumptions you say...

Asian ppl will mostly press Blue due to their education (still can totally be wrong).

Asian who? The Chinese? North Korea? Bigger part of Russia? Afghanistan? Pakistan?

 

[Bojji]

Assumptions you say...



Asian who? The Chinese? North Korea? Bigger part of Russia? Afghanistan? Pakistan?

Asians are collective societies vs. individualistic USA.

They are more likely to press blue.

 

[kevboard]

modifying the problem, by removing the red button completely, makes it far more obvious how wild pressing blue is.

red was always the "I am not participating in this" choice, so removing red doesn't meaningfully change the issue. now you still have the same choices, press blue or not press blue.

suddenly it becomes very clear that blue is the "chance of suicide" button.

 

[xandaca]

Even if it was adult only, there are still many adults who are decent people who are idealistic - and by going red you are ok with them dying. Yes, it is "their fault" for being idealistic but they would be dead nonetheless.

Adults should be fully aware and accepting of the consequences of their actions. I support their right to make that choice for whatever reason, but given they have just as much ability to make the alternative choice as I would, do not respect any expectation they might have that I should risk my life to protect them should their idealism fail to achieve what they'd hoped. Anyone who votes blue with the expectation that others protect them isn't being altruistic or adult in the slightest because altruism requires putting others' needs before your own, and part of being an adult is taking responsibility for your actions: expecting others risk themselves for you is the opposite of both those things. Were I to die as a consequence of voting blue to theoretically protect some children, my death would be on nobody but myself for freely choosing to put myself in that position. If my motives were sincere and not self-centred, I'd hope to be at peace with dying for something I truly believed was worth the risk.

modifying the problem, by removing the red button completely, makes it far more obvious how wild pressing blue is.

red was always the "I am not participating in this" choice, so removing red doesn't meaningfully change the issue. now you still have the same choices, press blue or not press blue.

suddenly it becomes very clear that blue is the "chance of suicide" button.

Phrasing is a huge part of how the scenario is being interpreted. If the original tweet had been phrased as something like 'If you press the red button, you live. If you press the blue button, you die unless 50% of participants also press the blue button', removing the implication of blue representing altruism, I suspect there would have been a large drop-off in the blue vote. That said, I'm glad it was phrased as it was because it has provided an interesting insight into how people express their choices and how they respond to scrutiny or when others see things in a different way.

 

[nkarafo]

and by going red you are ok with them dying.

Bad thing happens to someone + you don't allow it to happen to you = You must be OK it happened to someone.

Even if it was adult only, there are still many adults who are decent people who are idealistic - and by going red you are ok with them dying. Yes, it is "their fault" for being idealistic but they would be dead nonetheless.

Question is, do you really think there will be enough of them who will press blue so you can have a chance to not die with them?

If yes, sure it makes sense. I would also take that chance. But if not then would you still do it? And if yes then why?

 

[Avid Reading Horse]

Here's one for you.

Bluetard logic is always easily defeated. Observe:

 

[ReBurn]

Comes down to thinking before you act. If you take a moment to think it through instead of reacting to feelings you understand that the only way for everyone to live is for everyone to push the red button. If you see it as a purity test then enjoy being dead I guess.

 

[nkarafo]

suddenly it becomes very clear that blue is the "chance of suicide" button.

The whole thing is basically this: Are you are willing to join all those who pressed the suicide button by risking your own life in a chance to save them?

And my question before i decide is this: Do i believe it's possible there will be enough who will indeed press the suicide button, so my attempt to contribute to their numbers has a chance and it's not completely futile?

My predictions for my own ass:

Logic or survival instinct prevail: I press the red button, then hope nobody i care for pressed the blue one. And then deal with what happened afterwards and hope for the best.

Emotions prevail: I press the blue button as fast as i can so i won't give myself time to think logically. And then crawl into a corner thinking about how stupid i am and wait for my inevitable death.

 

[IDKFA]

From the guy who posted the currently-viral premise on Twitter:




I think this scenario is truer than a lot of people would want to admit.

Yep. Red is the guarantee survival button.

Blue is having faith in humanity, and that's not a gamble I'd be willing to take.

 

[Bojji]

Comes down to thinking before you act. If you take a moment to think it through instead of reacting to feelings you understand that the only way for everyone to live is for everyone to push the red button. If you see it as a purity test then enjoy being dead I guess.

"thinking" part wont work for elderly, children, disabled people or even color blind.

Or even people pressing blue by mistake. If majority presses red, all of them will be dead.

Blue is the best choice to avoid unnecessary deaths.

 

[ReBurn]

"thinking" part wont work for elderly, children, disabled people or even color blind.

Or even people pressing blue by mistake. If majority presses red, all of them will be dead.

Blue is the best choice to avoid unnecessary deaths.

Elderly and disabled people can think. You can label the buttons for colorblind people. That leaves children, who would likely be able to take guidance from their parents.

The only people who are really at risk in this scenario are people who are mentally disabled, and that's a whole other argument. But I bet if you tell them that the only way they can be sure they'll live is to push the red button then they'll push the red button. Because it makes the most sense.

 

[nkarafo]

Blue is the best choice to avoid unnecessary deaths.

But if you think blues are already doomed then red is the best choice to avoid further unnecessary deaths.

 

[Bojji]

Elderly and disabled people can think. You can label the buttons for colorblind people. That leaves children, who would likely be able to take guidance from their parents.

The only people who are really at risk in this scenario are people who are mentally disabled, and that's a whole other argument. But I bet if you tell them that the only way they can be sure they'll live is to push the red button then they'll push the red button. Because it makes the most sense.

You can't tell them anything. They have to make choice by themselves, 50% chance that your family will vote blue.

 

[nkarafo]

50% chance that your family will vote blue.

Where did that 50% came from?

 

[Bojji]

Where did that 50% came from?

You don't know how they will vote, so you have 50% chance that they will vote blue or red.

 

[poppabk]

Elderly and disabled people can think. You can label the buttons for colorblind people. That leaves children, who would likely be able to take guidance from their parents.

The only people who are really at risk in this scenario are people who are mentally disabled, and that's a whole other argument. But I bet if you tell them that the only way they can be sure they'll live is to push the red button then they'll push the red button. Because it makes the most sense.

And thats when the pan-dimensional beings change the colors in the actual booth.

 

[nkarafo]

You don't know how they will vote, so you have 50% chance that they will vote blue or red.

What percentage would you give to someone who doesn't have a family? To someone who has less to lose? To someone who lives a miserable life? To a homeless?

 

[Avid Reading Horse]

You don't know how they will vote, so you have 50% chance that they will vote blue or red.

Did you also pick the stupid ending in E33?

 

[Bojji]

What percentage would you give to someone who doesn't have a family? To someone who has less to lose? To someone who lives a miserable life? To a homeless?

What percentage of those people live in society? Homeless people can also have friends they care about.

 

[IDKFA]

You don't know how they will vote, so you have 50% chance that they will vote blue or red.

It's not 50%.

Human behavior rarely splits exactly down the middle because people are weighing cooperation against self-preservation. The probability of my family pushing blue depends on their worldview, rather than a random number generator, therefore not a 50/50 chance.

For example, if my family were incredibly religious and had faith in humanity, the chances of them pushing blue could be 70% or more.

 

[Bojji]

It's not 50%.

Human behavior rarely splits exactly down the middle because people are weighing cooperation against self-preservation. The probability of my family pushing blue depends on their worldview, rather than a random number generator, therefore not a 50/50 chance.

For example, if my family were incredibly religious and had faith in humanity, the chances of them pushing blue could be 70% or more.

For you it's still 50% because you don't know and choice is binary.

 

[near]

red was always the "I am not participating in this" choice,

But you are participating if you press red. Your vote directly affects the outcome. How is that not participating?

You can think of it like a tug of war, except only one side can fall into the pit. If you join the blue team and blue wins, then you drag red across with you to survival. If you join the red team and red wins, then you drag blue into a pit of death and you survive.

It's participating on the side where only your team is guaranteed to survive.

 

[kevboard]

But you are participating if you press red. Your vote directly affects the outcome. How is that not participating?

if there was no red button you would still vote by abstaining. not pressing blue has the same result as pressing red in the original post.
it's the same problem, just with a different phrasing.
that's the point.

by rephrasing it without the red button being there it makes blue look way more insane than before.

there are still 2 teams, just that 1 team actively pressed a potential suicide button, while the other side didn't press it.

 

[Three]

It's not 50%.

Human behavior rarely splits exactly down the middle because people are weighing cooperation against self-preservation. The probability of my family pushing blue depends on their worldview, rather than a random number generator, therefore not a 50/50 chance.

For example, if my family were incredibly religious and had faith in humanity, the chances of them pushing blue could be 70% or more.

It's not completely random but he's saying if you don't know your family/friends choice well it's a simple 50/50 chance. If somebody asked me what would my parents or siblings vote it would be hard for me to guess which they would vote so I would assume 50/50.