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[knocksky]

Share your insight instead of being a critic.

He doesn't have an insight, just like the op doesn't nor does anyone else posting in the thread.

The thread is pointless and the poll is laughable

 

[Hobbygaming]

Couldn't have said it better myself. And this is something I fear people tend to overlook.

It's like that saying, `treating the infection and not the wound that caused the infection`.

Yes, we can say it all boils down to one having a better development environment than the other, but the only reason it has a better development environment (and better isn't even the term here, it's familiar), is because Sony clearly went out of their way to make the PS5 as close in design to the PS4 as possible. And they added things that would make stufff that were bottlenecks on the PS4 non-existent or to allow for new things that can be built on top of what already was there with the PS4.

That is a hardware design, and the software that runs in that environment, runs within the confines of it. The XS approach means there is a harder or different/new learning curve all over again. Or spending time learning new ways to do od tricks. So the net end result, is that it ends up taking longer to get the same results you would get on the PS5.

And imagine having to create a new IP or reboot which these days take around 5 years and having to learn new hardware on top of that

It seems like Mark Cerny and the engineering team struck the right balance between familiar and new

 

[onQ123]

LOL, remember when they made a Xbox Power King Memes thread?

I visit that thread from time to time lol

Thread died down soon as the games started coming out lol

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/ot-xbox-power-king-memes.1531914/

 

[Kataploom]

You and a few other posters have brought up Sony learning lessons from Cell and I think that's accurate. I mean Cell really banged Sony up badly; amazing tech but they didn't do enough to have a dev environment suitable for 3P developers early enough.

Let alone they overestimated Cell's performance for GPU work and had to rush in the RSX (wonder what a dual-Cell PS3 could've been like though; one for CPU and the other completely dedicated for graphics).



Well said, and ultimately, you're right in this assessment. I do think things like complications with quirks in the memory setup could play a role as time goes on, but ultimately they would never be the most critical. After all, there are systems with way more complex and hamstrung memory setups that ended up seeing success in the past both commercially and with developers.

It can be said that the changes Microsoft made with their SDK and APIs had to be done, after what occurred with the XBO. It can even be argued that their timing wasn't any different than Sony's when Sony had to change everything from PS3 to PS4. Where Microsoft messed up, IMO, was not having 1P software in development soon enough to ensure their own studios could get things running off to a strong start.

PS4 was very different from PS3 in almost all aspects but we still saw some really solid 1P games right from the first year or two like Killzone:ShadowFall and InFamous:Second Son. That PS4 had more obvious advantages over XBO (such as almost 3x the RAM bandwidth, 50% more TF performance, more pixel fillrate performance and a less resource-hungry OS plus a better-integrated hypervisor) helped, but Sony did seem to make sure their 1P teams were taking the steps needed to at least get technical bearing on PS4 ASAP even as they were also finishing off the PS3 strongly.

Microsoft really messed up in their priorities near end of XBO. They turned to services and BC programs instead of making sure the 1P they had at the time were getting acclimated with GDK as early as possible, because MS themselves were running late getting GDK up to speed. They didn't have their 1P give strong enough final sendoffs for the XBO; maybe a few more games at least up to the level of Gears 5 would've prepared more of their 1P for the technical and design ramp-up of 9th-gen.

MS were too slow investing in a proper dev environment in time for the new console launches, they're forever playing catch-up, they may have complicated dev environment even further with Series S acting as a constricting element, and they didn't foster their 1P in time for the new system launches.



Oh, so you were referring to the caches? I thought you were also referring to the RAM, or maybe that was for illustrating another point. When you think about it, 22% larger L1$ cache bandwidth for the ROPs in PS5, when they already have to feed less than Series X, that sounds like it could create some scary gulfs in scenarios where cache bandwidth for the ROPs is the determining factor for performance in a given frame.

Well, Sony was hurried to get rid of the ps3, so they made a hard reset and didn't look back, MS on the other hand at least had something decent in terms of development environment and this generation everyone made a eased transition, I think I can see where it all came from...

 

[Three]

I visit that thread from time to time lol

Thread died down soon as the games started coming out lol

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/ot-xbox-power-king-memes.1531914/

Then it turned into a CoD becoming exclusive meme then died again. Thread was kind of embarrassing, no wonder it's mostly a graveyard.

 

[onQ123]

Then it turned into a CoD becoming exclusive meme then died again. Thread was kind of embarrassing, no wonder it's mostly a graveyard.

I wasn't even going to call them out until the Goonies kid wanted war with me about a Dreams thread I made that had nothing to do with Xbox Series X lol they was hurt when that Unreal 5 demo came out lol



https://www.neogaf.com/threads/ot-xbox-power-king-memes.1531914/post-258178542


Ok I did call them out but I was trying to help them keep the thread alive lol they was mad as hell when I bumped the thread after they saw the games lol

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/ot-xbox-power-king-memes.1531914/page-24#post-258111492

 

[DenchDeckard]

Good to see we still have threads that bring up what some posters that are no longer here said almost three years ago.....

..looks like we are never getting over "we believe in generations, who would want to play old games, the 12tf monster, most powerful box, power of the ssd, everyone plays"

What else can we add to the list of pr comments that the business side then pulled a 180 on?

It would be so amazing if we could treat the past as the past as we only have right NOW and that's what matters.

The future is not promised, look at right now people lol

Right now xbox is doing great and there's been two smaller developed games this year with one heavily marketed Sony product that has leaned towards ps5. We have lots of games that have leaned towards xbox. Dead space, witcher..etc

Are there threads dedicated to what is wrong with sonys system design that it's not winning in those games? No, let's just enjoy the games. This shjt is not needed for us, who don't actually know to contemplate..we don't know what each studio is giving to each game in resources...unreal engine sucks on PC and xbox right now...just needs work.

Focus on enjoying the amazing games I say and leave worrying about hardware configurations to those that are working on these games daily.

 

[sinnergy]

Good to see we still have threads that bring up what some posters that are no longer here said almost three years ago.....

..looks like we are never getting over "we believe in generations, who would want to play old games, the 12tf monster, most powerful box, power of the ssd, everyone plays"

What else can we add to the list of pr comments that the business side then pulled a 180 on?

It would be so amazing if we could treat the past as the past as we only have right NOW and that's what matters.

The future is not promised, look at right now people lol

PR is a powerful tool

 

[solidus12]

..looks like we are never getting over "we believe in generations, who would want to play old games, the 12tf monster, most powerful box, power of the ssd, everyone plays"
What else can we add to the list of pr comments that the business side then pulled a 180 on?

Over-promise under-deliver

 

[onQ123]

Good to see we still have threads that bring up what some posters that are no longer here said almost three years ago.....

..looks like we are never getting over "we believe in generations, who would want to play old games, the 12tf monster, most powerful box, power of the ssd, everyone plays"

What else can we add to the list of pr comments that the business side then pulled a 180 on?

It would be so amazing if we could treat the past as the past as we only have right NOW and that's what matters.

The future is not promised, look at right now people lol

Right now xbox is doing great and there's been two smaller developed games this year with one heavily marketed Sony product that has leaned towards ps5. We have lots of games that have leaned towards xbox. Dead space, witcher..etc

Are there threads dedicated to what is wrong with sonys system design that it's not winning in those games? No, let's just enjoy the games. This shjt is not needed for us, who don't actually know to contemplate..we don't know what each studio is giving to each game in resources...unreal engine sucks on PC and xbox right now...just needs work.

Focus on enjoying the amazing games I say and leave worrying about hardware configurations to those that are working on these games daily.

I'm pretty sure he/she is still here under a different name or was here under a different name .

 

[DenchDeckard]

For a sony forum there is sure a lot of xbox talk on here.

Seems like all I'm seeing recently is negative threads about Xbox/Microsoft/Phil.

Maybe if people had some games to play...

They have psvr 2 to go play, and when you're in there you can't see a pc screen to post this vitriol about MS on gaf so I'm not sure whats happening...

 

[DenchDeckard]

Vulgarization is informative, and you are talking against OP motives instead of talking about what was said. If someting is factually wrong or inexact, we would welcome your posts a lot more than just

IF he does not know what he is saying, either you do or you do not. If you do, please make a counter argument. If you do not, then please at least take one of his argument, then explain why you think that he said it in bad faith.
If you have a better idea about why there is a PS5 advantage in some third parties games like Hogwarts, atomic heart ... Please say so.


Part of what makes consoles great is seeing them "punching above their weight." The PS3, with games like TLOU, and the PS4 surprised us , and continue to do so with games like Horizon Forbidden West and GOW Ragnarok. Nothing wrong to talk about what allow those game to be so good graphically and what is in the way of Xbox doing the same.

So you are stating that ps5 is punchig above its weight with games like horizon forbidden west and GOW:R?

What about xbox with games like forza horizon 5, plagues tale, Resident Evil Village, resi 3 remaster patch, witcher 3, dead space remake, gears hivebusters, forza motorsport, hi fi rush and soon to be starfield....hellblade 2...

All look amazing and show there isn't some strange hardware fuck up, these games are performing on par or better than the ps5 in many cases...so there is obviously no issue with the memory set up?

Games that have had issues have all been patched, let's see where atomic heart and hogwarts are in a month or two.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Actually PS5 is more brute force with the higher clocks while it's the Xbox Series X that shine when the devs optimize for the hardware.

In some aspects both are brute forcing it: very wide CU arrays (to the point of stretching the Shader Array a bit potentially and thus over stressing the shared cache for example) for one and higher clocks on the other. The latter affects much more than the CU’s themselves though.

 

[Panajev2001a]

So you are stating that ps5 is punchig above its weight with games like horizon forbidden west and GOW:R?

What about xbox with games like forza horizon 5, plagues tale, Resident Evil Village, resi 3 remaster patch, witcher 3, dead space remake, gears hivebusters, forza motorsport, hi fi rush and soon to be starfield....hellblade 2...

All look amazing and show there isn't some strange hardware fuck up, these games are performing on par or better than the ps5 in many cases...so there is obviously no issue with the memory set up?

Games that have had issues have all been patched, let's see where atomic heart and hogwarts are in a month or two.

This is why they removed the strong “world fastest/most powerful console” from their marketing. From a paper specs point of view to the manufacturing and console HW costs and ability to cost reduce the HW effectively (they were probably over cautious with heat dissipation in the launch revision for example) we have a pattern of quite good business and technical choices which is important for a company of Sony’s size compared to MS or Meta (all of this is architecture and product planning).

 

[Riky]

An AMD engineer came out in a recent interview; there's not much difference between Primitive and Mesh Shaders in practice. It's just down to Mesh Shaders being a software implementation. Both PS5 and Series have Primitive Shader units in them.

Here's the thread with the article; here are some quotes from the article itself (translated to English)





Basically, Sony & Microsoft are using the same Primitive Shader Units for the same end results in both systems. But Sony is using an access implementation that is different from Microsoft's, which is using it as a Mesh Shader. The functionality is practically the same; it's just the implementation that's different.

That's directly from AMD engineer Mr.Wang, btw. Also no Series consoles don't have larger grouping than RDNA2 for Mesh Shader groups; they just have (had?) larger group sizes than what Nvidia supported at the time. But with further CUDA revisions since 2020, chances are Nvidia supports a similar group size (256) as Microsoft, I'm just assuming on that point though


Okay, I think I get what you're saying then. I thought the CPUs in the new consoles would be a bit more bandwidth-hungry than that but, they are based on Zen 2 mobile-line chips (albeit customized), so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

It's not really saying too much though in terms of scenarios where maybe the 10 GB capacity for fast data access isn't enough, because any scenario where the GPU needs data in the slower pool will still drag down the GPU's peak bandwidth down. But now I'm more confident that in even those instances total effective system bandwidth would still be a portion higher than PS5's.

Although as I saw someone else saying, the part of the pipeline that would possibly be most affected by bandwidth constriction are probably the ROPs.

Do you read what anyone posts or what you even quote? I've already posted what the difference is between Primitive and Mesh Shaders quite clearly and the advantage of Mesh Shaders is on the developer side with more granular control over a shorter pipeline, the Series does have larger grouping as the RDNA2 standard which is 128 as the AMD video confirms.

 

[A Most Virtuous Cat]

OP: Writes an article discussing his thoughts on an interesting subject matter.
Fanboys: He is hating on Xbox.

 

[Panajev2001a]

..looks like we are never getting over "we believe in generations, who would want to play old games, the 12tf monster, most powerful box, power of the ssd, everyone plays"

Perhaps… funny thing is that while that goof had to blabber about old games and BC (sigh), we still misquote the “believe in generations” quote and sorry for being pedantic but it is just wrong to say as we should know better.

PS5 Die Shot has been revealed

I blame this bearded stoner Exactly. He literally says there that "RDNA2 includes hardware support for DIRECT X ray tracing" So... PS5 by definition can't be this so called "full RDNA2" because PlayStation would never ever use fucking DirectX. Wow the PS5 is not a PC. Shocker. Its dishonest...

www.neogaf.com

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/esrb-has-rated-the-medium-for-ps5.1608476/page-4

The other bits yes mostly chest thumping and idiotic marketing (I am surprised Ryan understood to speak less and less and be a lot more careful these last few years ), including the TFLOPS supremacy and true RDNA2 propaganda designed to appeal to the segment of their fan base that was going to resonate only with a “us dominating them” boombastic set of slogans.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Do you read what anyone posts or what you even quote? I've already posted what the difference is between Primitive and Mesh Shaders quite clearly and the advantage of Mesh Shaders is on the developer side with more granular control over a shorter pipeline, the Series does have larger grouping as the RDNA2 standard which is 128 as the AMD video confirms.

It looks like you are the one not reading and going against a VP level of AMD’s RTG too, let it go.
The HW underneath is essentially the same, primitive shaders are what powers both the solution Sony used and what MS is using (the API used to access them is the big differentiator… you want to see secret sauce in what AMD gave Xbox in their primitive shaders HW blocks and others see what Cerny called in the new brain/Geometry Engine as evidence of the same for PS5… where does that leave us ? Both having their own tweaks in a semi-custom design).
What we got out of it is several titles on PS5 using Primitive Shaders but still not as many on the XSX’s side, that is up to MS to help their developers with (figuring out what devs need and can use is quite hard… Mesh Shaders as an API is what has been standardised in DirectX and for MS and their unified GDK having perfect DX compatibility / familiarity is one of their most important goals… luckily being a console they do have a few more direct paths, long live consoles ).

 

[Corndog]

I remember there were some prediction regarding this as well. I think PS5 memory is better solution eventhough 448 gb/sec is too low IMO. The github leak of 16ghz ram would make it 512 gb/sec which I guess was their target. But since gamer nexus made a video that ram temp is slighly more and Sony decided to cheap it out and settled with 448 gb/sec. Since it is unified memory dev does not have to bother. For SX I am sure they definitely wanted to have 20gb of full 560gb/sec and some people thought that wider and narrow is some sort of genius move where as it was a clear compromise on their end as well. There was another school of thought that feeding 36CU with 448 gb/sec is better or 52cu wit 560. To me PS5 just seems more efficient.

Why would you need more ram for more Cus? Is there more data being processed on Xbox version of games than ps5?