WhiteRabbitEXE
Member
Um, yeah. Like, a lot.
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Extremist Militia Occupies Federal Building In Oregon
- Thread starter jmood88
- Start date
- Status
Um, yeah. Like, a lot.
Vicetrailia
Banned
Why are these guys doing whatever they want? Are they even being watched on the outside by something other than the media? Like, this can't be duplicated by others.
Lonewolf_92
Member
Yes, but that's not going to stop them from hitting up the post office for their daily care package and dildo delivery.
I'm half tempted to head on over there under the guise of joining them and wreck/steal their shit and blow back out in the middle of the night. Maybe hook them up with some Canadian maple syrup in their gas tanks on my way out.
Unauthorized use of a vehicle in Oregon is a Class C felony. I don't know what, if anything changes if it is a government vehicle.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Not exactly starving anyone out.
... this makes me Hulk Angry.
No, they just don't think they are doing anything wrong. Yes, they know they are breaking laws, but they think those laws don't matter.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
double post
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
Not exactly starving anyone out.
not letting them get fucking mail would be a good strategy
Sir Abacus
Member
These assholes want to be 2016's Waco/Ruby Ridge. Flashbangs flying through the windows just gives them what they want.
The only reason I'm against that is cause it might damage the ancient artifacts inside the building.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Who gives a shit what they want? This behavior is unacceptable, and it's disgusting it's gone on so long. Not like anything to Government does is going to make these guys any less crazy.
Sectorseven
Member
Has to write a 30 word essay on what he did.
kinda feel the same way.
No, they want free land, free food, free dildos, and zero consequences for illegal and unjust behavior. And we're just giving it to them.
psynergylover
Member
seriously how and why are the getting mail!?!?!?!?
Sir Abacus
Member
Yes but storming the place guns blazing is just going to inflame the rest of the "patriots" with guns to give it a go. McVeigh originally did Oklahoma City because he wanted revenge for Waco and Ruby Ridge. Pragmatism is a billion times better than trying to satisfy some sort of vengeance fantasy.
upholding the law isn't "vengeance fantasy".
Sir Abacus
Member
The law will eventually be upheld. There's no reason it needs to be right this second with raids and weapons.
i'm not convinced of that, but we'll see.
Sir Abacus
Member
Keep in mind these are people who have said if the government tries any funny business they'll start shooting. If they start shooting the government will shoot back. Then the shit hits the fan.
Think about all of the FWS, BLM, and NPS employees all of whom operate largely unarmed and in remote locations. These employees already regularly threatened by nut jobs. Any firefight with these Oregon dropkicks would most certainly mean open season towards these remote and vulnerable government employees for some more extreme sympathizers.
Think about all of the FWS, BLM, and NPS employees all of whom operate largely unarmed and in remote locations. These employees already regularly threatened by nut jobs. Any firefight with these Oregon dropkicks would most certainly mean open season towards these remote and vulnerable government employees for some more extreme sympathizers.
That's not actually what they want. What they want is for the government to turn over local federal lands for free grazing. That's what they've said, and it corresponds to the actions they've taken. They'd be fine if the government continued to leave them alone forever, so long as it meant they were allowed to continue breaking down federal fencing and allowing illegal grazing on the land.
And basing criminal response on what other criminals are going to think about it seems dubious at best. Is there a reason that sort of logic only applies in this case? I'm sure everytime a drug dealer gets shot, other drug dealers increase their animosity toward the police, but we don't have a policy of allowing people to sell drugs with impunity for fear of upsetting other drug dealers. We don't allow people to not pay taxes, for fear that the same sorts of folks will get riled up. Why are these guys, and guys like them, special?
This is the sort of thing people are talking about when they talk about these guys being treated with kid gloves. They are, by any definition, armed criminals, blocking the federal government from use of its own lands, scaring the local township, and destroying federal property. I can't think of many other organized criminals who are allowed to engage in willful criminal behavior while the police stand by and do nothing. Can you? Can you provide some historical examples where criminals were allowed to engage in their crimes, with no barrier to flight, and no police presence? I'd be interested to hear about them.
this is a great point that many people seem to be missing ..
we shouldn't not remove these guys out of fear of possible reprisals or more potential problems with gun toting anti-government criminals in the future.
Sir Abacus
Member
The overall arching goal of the movement is to free up conservation lands for grazing but this particular siege? When you got people saying "I didn't come here to shoot I came here to die." it smacks of a desire to be a martyr.
It smacks of the desire to frighten people, which has apparently worked. Regardless, their desires, or the reactions of people similarly skewed, ought not be the fulcrum on which we balance justice.
And I'm not, nor has anyone else in here I've seen, suggesting a wild shoot out. I'm frankly tired of discussing that particular strawman. As if the only options were to stick a thumb up our ass and do nothing, or kill every man, woman, and child in the place. It's a ridiculous false dilemma, and I reject it outright.
Sir Abacus
Member
Assuming the feds go in, then siege members fire at them in aggression. What then? Should lethal force be authorized? Should it not? Should the government retreat? I mean it's all well and good to say you're not suggesting a wild shoot out (and I honestly think you do mean this) but what do people expect to happen if the government raids the place? It's not going to be hugs and puppies with these people. They are violent extremists looking for a fight.
Be pragmatic, let them get bored then arrest them later when they're not all trying to outmacho each other on sticking it to the gubmint. It's a safe and sure way to do things.
If they are as violent as you say, they are not going to just get bored an go home, especially when they don't shut down power in the building and let supplies to be brought to them. What makes you think they will give up after getting bored instead escalate the situation? I mean you said they are violent extremists looking for fight, than they are going to start look for it if not brought to them. They are not stupid, they know if they leave and give up they are going to be arrested.
At the very least try to squeeze them out by removing their supply line and power to the building.
ScottSullivan
Member
The ny mafia families as well, the feds knew what was going on for years but couldnt just go in guns blazing
I think that was due to lack of evidence on the mafia leaders. But yeah, if they try to arrest these folks at the location, there will be deaths. They should certainly be cutting them off from roads and power though.
timetokill
Banned
It'd probably help if you read the thread, as I've said multiple times that I don't want them to go in. Again, your false dilemma is ridiculous. Enforcement is not a binary switch. For literally two weeks, these guys have been leaving the Malheur refuge, often alone or in pairs, and going into the city, some thirty miles away. And yet they haven't been arrested. Thirty miles of empty road on which to do so safely, without risking towns people or the militia at the refuge. Some of them have been sleeping at hotels in the city. Every single one of them is a federal criminal, allowed to wander about, breaking the law.
The roads leading in and out of Malheur are open to anyone that wants to join the criminals, as well as being open to anyone who decides they want to sneak out and follow around law enforcement officials, or stalk BLM employees at their homes. Not even postal deliveries have been stopped. No one's stopping sympathizers from stocking them up, which is why they have way more food now than they did two weeks ago. The only barricades are those set up around the Task Force office, and the one the militia set up with a single pickup in front of Malheur.
There are a bunch of steps that could be taken that do not involve storming the Malheur refuge, so please quit acting as if our only choices are do nothing or commit an atrocity. It ignores the context of the discussion going on in the thread to erect a silly strawman, and you'd know it had been shot down a dozen times already if you'd bothered to read the thread.
Vicetrailia
Banned
Will they actually be arrested though. Seems like the kid gloves will reach no bottom.
EatinOlives
Member
I have no reason to believe that law will eventually be upheld. You can't tell people they're being impatient when this shit has been going on for over two weeks and the only thing that's happened is them getting more and more privileges handed to them as time has passed by. They've gone from being locked into the building, to getting mail, to getting tons of people visit them, to taking government vehicles and destroying property with it, taking other vehicles and driving into town with them, and going from "we're almost out of supplies" to "driving freely into town to go grocery shopping". This doesn't even begin to cover the crazies that have visited from other places and started harassing locals, only made possible because authorities have done less than nothing.
There's a vast difference between "right this second with raids and weapons" and "lifting ONE finger at some point to do anything to even keep them where they are". Local authorities are actively going backwards in handling this situation. So forgive some of us for not having faith that the law will "eventually" be upheld.
Lonewolf_92
Member
You mean like it was with the Bundy Standoff?
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Yeah.
They talk big about wanting a glorious cinematic shootout with Big Gubment.
They brought human shields.
But now that none of that is happening, they are showing that they really don't give a shit about that in the first place and are asking to just play Xbox all day.
Like.
We already can assume that the Sheriff pretty much sympathizes with them, the Fire guy quit to join them, they are getting support from actual Washington bigwigs.
They've fucking won.
We literally let terrorists win because they are white.
Let that sink in.
We're allowing white terrorists to not only exist in this country but carry out their plans.
I'm sure more than a few of them are on "disability"
I don't fault anyone who thinks they're getting away with this because they're white, but I'm not sure that's the real reason. I think it's because no-one's really worried about what happens if they win. I mean, really, so they what, sell or hand out the rest of this land for cattle and what, everyone's done? No forced change of religion, or anything like that? The perceived stakes are lower.
With other issues you're talking about upheaving the very fabric of the US, like police brutality, yes there's a racial component there but I'm sure a lot of non racist people are supporting it anyways because just changing it would take so much effort, so much time, so much money and so many people would, for good reason, probably go to jail, powerful people, many popular, the country over would fall and take people with them if the country seriously tackled and held accountable police brutality. And everyone deals with this institution at points in their lives, how many people will deal with the BLM by comparison? I think a lot of people think they could up and abolish it and most Americans would never notice the difference.
Or lets take something all Americans deal with 100% that's somewhat similar, taxes. If cattle ranchers don't pay grazing fees again the country'd survive but what if everyday citizens did the same thing with the one federal government entity we all deal with once a year and didn't pay taxes? The scale'd be totally different, that's the end of the government.
So I think the scale of the effect they can reasonably have is another thing keeping them from deciding it's not worth the trouble, they risk stirring up all this violence for a relative handful of people in the country.
I also wouldn't be too surprised if they're holding back for the election, a siege between these loons and the federal government would be a PR boon for the Republicans that would totally fit alongside the narrative of Obama wants to take away your guns and all this other shit they peddle.
Problem is, that's bullshit. The signals it sends is poison. A few days ago a 12 year old girl was killed while her father fought being evicted for something like 15 hundred dollars in rent. I don't hold the cop responsible for that incident, we have rules in this country and she was an unfortunate bystander in that incident and there's a discussion there about gun culture and the like but ordinary citizens do not get away with this. Cliven Bundy owes, what, over a million dollars? Still probably chump change compared to all the poor people in the country who fall behind on rent but the law's gotta apply equally. What this shows people is that playing by the rules handicaps you. It always has to a degree but this is atrocious, on a whole different level. How do you compete for a better future when some can just opt out of government rule like this? If you're a cattle rancher and you got some guys grazing for free and you're paying your fair share every year you're a fucking sucker, that's what this message says. And it filters down to all of us, why fucking pay taxes? I could make good use of that money myself, it'd be a hell of a lot better for my future if I kept that money and you just covered my share, paying taxes is for suckers let the ones who want to pay pay.
And something I find more concerning is that these jokers are showing that they don't want to live with us. The country is changing, it ain't the 1800s anymore and the people like them are getting fewer and fewer yet they feel it their patriotic duty to go and enforce their will on a huge majority of the population that either doesn't support them at all at worst or doesn't give a shit either way at best. What kind of shit do we have to look forward to in the future as this kind of rural life becomes rarer and rarer, or when throwing subsidies at traditional cattle ranchers no longer keeps the business able to compete with cattle farms and shit and the country they know continues to change?
And what are we as normal citizens to do when people start threatening people who also may view themselves as patriots, take over land and hold mock trials of other citizens? Does it become our duty then to arm ourselves and fight them as they are wont to do to us?
With other issues you're talking about upheaving the very fabric of the US, like police brutality, yes there's a racial component there but I'm sure a lot of non racist people are supporting it anyways because just changing it would take so much effort, so much time, so much money and so many people would, for good reason, probably go to jail, powerful people, many popular, the country over would fall and take people with them if the country seriously tackled and held accountable police brutality. And everyone deals with this institution at points in their lives, how many people will deal with the BLM by comparison? I think a lot of people think they could up and abolish it and most Americans would never notice the difference.
Or lets take something all Americans deal with 100% that's somewhat similar, taxes. If cattle ranchers don't pay grazing fees again the country'd survive but what if everyday citizens did the same thing with the one federal government entity we all deal with once a year and didn't pay taxes? The scale'd be totally different, that's the end of the government.
So I think the scale of the effect they can reasonably have is another thing keeping them from deciding it's not worth the trouble, they risk stirring up all this violence for a relative handful of people in the country.
I also wouldn't be too surprised if they're holding back for the election, a siege between these loons and the federal government would be a PR boon for the Republicans that would totally fit alongside the narrative of Obama wants to take away your guns and all this other shit they peddle.
Problem is, that's bullshit. The signals it sends is poison. A few days ago a 12 year old girl was killed while her father fought being evicted for something like 15 hundred dollars in rent. I don't hold the cop responsible for that incident, we have rules in this country and she was an unfortunate bystander in that incident and there's a discussion there about gun culture and the like but ordinary citizens do not get away with this. Cliven Bundy owes, what, over a million dollars? Still probably chump change compared to all the poor people in the country who fall behind on rent but the law's gotta apply equally. What this shows people is that playing by the rules handicaps you. It always has to a degree but this is atrocious, on a whole different level. How do you compete for a better future when some can just opt out of government rule like this? If you're a cattle rancher and you got some guys grazing for free and you're paying your fair share every year you're a fucking sucker, that's what this message says. And it filters down to all of us, why fucking pay taxes? I could make good use of that money myself, it'd be a hell of a lot better for my future if I kept that money and you just covered my share, paying taxes is for suckers let the ones who want to pay pay.
And something I find more concerning is that these jokers are showing that they don't want to live with us. The country is changing, it ain't the 1800s anymore and the people like them are getting fewer and fewer yet they feel it their patriotic duty to go and enforce their will on a huge majority of the population that either doesn't support them at all at worst or doesn't give a shit either way at best. What kind of shit do we have to look forward to in the future as this kind of rural life becomes rarer and rarer, or when throwing subsidies at traditional cattle ranchers no longer keeps the business able to compete with cattle farms and shit and the country they know continues to change?
And what are we as normal citizens to do when people start threatening people who also may view themselves as patriots, take over land and hold mock trials of other citizens? Does it become our duty then to arm ourselves and fight them as they are wont to do to us?
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Assholes like this can get on disability and yet I've been rejected five times with an actual one.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
That's a little barbaric.
Permanently A
Junior Member
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
Just like the ranch standoff..
I didn't realize pointing loaded guns at federal officials is not a crime
Simply Sarah
Member
The really scary thing from all this is the likelihood that this sort of thing will start to become more and more common since the feds continue to show that they'll basically do nothing at all to stop this sort of thing. No arrests, no blockades, no nothing. It turns out all the 2nd Amendment nuts are right: You get a few guns and wave them around and, at least assuming you're white, you'll make the government entirely impotent.
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