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[More_Badass]

Discovered this article thanks to another shared in the Blade Runner review thread (This Future Looks Familiar: Watching Blade Runner in 2017, also worth a read), it's a few months old and it's a familiar message, but it's so damn true. I listened to a podcast episode once (Benedict Arnold’s Leg, Rumble Strip) where a textbook author talked about how he wanted to bring new details and anecdotes to history textbooks related to America's origins, how frustrating it was to find how controlled and deified the narrative is and how that hurts children's understanding of our past. That came to mind when reading this, and as I was remembering how American history was presented in my history books

https://www.tor.com/2017/05/04/facing-facts-american-identity-is-based-on-alternate-history/

I studied this particular book for a full year—in a display of singular dedication to an idea, the teacher designed her entire district-approved curriculum around it. The premise of this particular alternate history was “what if everything was fine?”

This supposition was carried through the text with a level of meticulous finesse that I’ve never seen anywhere else. It permeated every facet of the built world on which the book was focused. What if, the book supposed, America had been entirely undiscovered prior to 1492? What if the Pilgrims had been a peaceful, God-loving people? What if they had worked together with the Native population, rather than slaughtering them and stealing their land? What if voyages of exploration were driven by a pure, heartfelt desire to expand the map of the world, and nobody had ever been interested in gold or drugs or slaves?

What if everything was fine?

What if the country wasn’t built on the backs of enslaved peoples? What if slavery was rare, and when it happened, the slaves were usually treated quite well? What if the founding fathers who did own slaves were good guys who should be admired and celebrated? What if sexual assault didn’t exist? What if the Trail of Tears was a mutual endeavor? What if the Civil War was driven more by dry economic and political factors than by a desire to perpetuate the subjugation of slaves? What if America never participated in eugenics? What if America was always staunchly anti-fascist and anti-Nazi?

What if everything was fine?

More at the link

 

[HiResDes]

Holy shit can't wait to read, just sorry I got beaten, made a similar thesis statement in college.

 

[Gin-Shiio]

Holy shit can't wait to read, just sorry I got beaten, made a similar thesis statement in college.

It's hard to come up with truly innovating stuff nowadays. What matters is that you add your own twist to it. I'm sure it'll turn out worthwhile.

 

[Gattsu25]

That's a fantastic read. Thanks for sharing.

Along similar lines I really enjoyed the novel 'Lies My Teacher Told Me'

 

[jaypah]

I'll check this out in the morning but at a glance it seems like a good read. Thanks for posting.

 

[The Last Emperor]

The Presence of the Past by Roy Rosenzsweig and David Thelan

Is basically what this article is talking about

 

[yanipheonu]

That's a pretty fasinating aspect of American culture: the insidious byproducts of trying to pretend that America is better than it is.

"Racism? Nah, it's just people trying to put down America, they're race baiting.
People trying to impose limits? Why should we? Everything is fine, isn't it?
Why are these people complaining? America is great, it's everyone else that's ruining it."

Hard to believe in any actual truth when you've been living in delusion so long. In fact if you love the delusion, anyone reasonably trying to break you out it is seen as a threat.

 

[SolarPowered]

I just read that Blade Runner review. My very soul is quivering right now. I was not ready for that comparison with real life even if I already understood it on some level as a person of color.

 

[sant]

Every Empire has been built on ruthlessness and its part of human nature. Look at what Homo Sapiens did to Neanderthals and other proto humans, we wiped them out. Would you have preferred we let them co-exist along side us?

Articles like this just like to pretend literally every other great empire hasn't been built on the same suffering and cruelty. The Ottomans, the Chinese, the Persians, the Spanish, all subjugated their enemies and did bad stuff. Should we just teach history from the victim's perspective?

 

[RoyaleDuke]

You know sometimes when you've been pointing this out a good portion of the last decade only to have scholars like this come and confirm in an age where no one wants the truth makes me even sadder.

This is such a great article, thanks for the Podcasts too.

 

[King Tubby]

Every Empire has been built on ruthlessness and its part of human nature. Look at what Homo Sapiens did to Neanderthals and other proto humans, we wiped them out. Would you have preferred we let them co-exist along side us?

Articles like this just like to pretend literally every other great empire hasn't been built on the same suffering and cruelty. The Ottomans, the Chinese, the Persians, the Spanish, all subjugated their enemies and did bad stuff. Should we just teach history from the victim's perspective?

Maybe we should teach a history that isn't solely from the victor's perspective in service of a rosey status quo that doesn't exist? A history that doesn't mislead people into thinking that all of our problems are nonexistent or don't have long roots that go back hundreds of years?

You read an article where someone dissects the whitewashed historical myth peddled to them and their classmates as children, and somehow have twisted it 180 degrees into attacking any sort of pushback against it as being censorship. I don't see anywhere in the article that pretends other great empires didn't have suffering or cruelty, either. I'm really not sure what you are talking about.

 

[Future PhaZe]

Such a good article. And it's such a good example of why "respect the flag!" culture has become quite frankly cancerous. Not because patriotism in and of itself is wrong, but because a good chunk of the country refuses to acknowledge the atrocities of our past, slowing progression significantly.

 

[Gunblade47]

This will be a fascinating read thank you.

I spoke to my friend that grew up in Texas about why exactly people still believe the confederacy were heroes and her answer was simply:

"Because the schools teach us that they were. They are revered as heroes that stood up for their states independence in the face of an overreaching government. The fact that these freedoms they were fighting for lies in slavery and oppression is often only mentioned as an afterthought. But how do you fix that?"

As someone from a previously white supremacist country I find the lack of objectivity on these subjects of US history so bizzare.

I mean if anything admitting one's mistakes and working on them can only make you stronger.

 

[Mahonay]

Really amazing article. Thank you for sharing. This is exactly the kind of thing people need to read right now.

 

[sant]

Maybe we should teach a history that isn't solely from the victor's perspective in service of a rosey status quo that doesn't exist? A history that doesn't mislead people into thinking that all of our problems are nonexistent or don't have long roots that go back hundreds of years?

You read an article where someone dissects the whitewashed historical myth peddled to them and their classmates as children, and somehow have twisted it 180 degrees into attacking any sort of pushback against it as being censorship. I don't see anywhere in the article that pretends other great empires didn't have suffering or cruelty, either. I'm really not sure what you are talking about.

I don't have a problem with giving history a more objective perspective and talking more about the actual problems that were created. But do kids see grey instead of just black and white? Even if the top 20% of them are smart enough to understand, what about the bottom 80%? If all they take away is that "America is evil" is that good for society as a whole? I honestly don't know. I was taught a more nuanced version of American history but that was in University.

The problem I have is people seem to exaggerate all the problems America has as "uniquely American." All of the bad things that Americans have done are no different than any other empire. Counting it up as "they were evil" instead of just par for the course is just as bad as claiming they were angels.

 

[mAcOdIn]

I don't have a problem with giving history a more objective perspective and talking more about the actual problems that were created. But do kids see grey instead of just black and white? Even if the top 20% of them are smart enough to understand, what about the bottom 80%? If all they take away is that "America is evil" is that good for society as a whole? I honestly don't know. I was taught a more nuanced version of American history but that was in University.

The problem I have is people seem to exaggerate all the problems America has as "uniquely American." All of the bad things that Americans have done are no different than any other empire. Counting it up as "they were evil" instead of just par for the course is just as bad as claiming they were angels.

Just as bad to what? National pride? What is harmed by thinking only negatively about the errors of our past? Why should I care if a school kid looks at our misdeeds and thinks they were bad and doesn't see any gray? What is harmed?

 

[sant]

Just as bad to what? National pride? What is harmed by thinking only negatively about the errors of our past? Why should I care if a school kid looks at our misdeeds and thinks they were bad and doesn't see any gray? What is harmed?

Why create more tension and division in an already divided and tense society? What is gained from it? We need to get kids to think about the future and focus their efforts towards that. Getting more people hung up on the past helps no one.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

This is a complicated subject, but it's worth pointing out that the United States are not unique at all in this, and I question if the United States is truly worse than many other places.


The old saying "history is written by the victor has always been true". If you go to China, Japan, Turkey, whatever- You see the same thing. A refusal to admit to their dark past. When you think you live in the greatest society on earth it tends to play tricks on you. Ego gets caught in the door, and negativity on the nation through the eyes of a patriot is an attack on the person itself.

We also do it subconsciously. World War 2 is an excellent example of how the Allied powers downplayed their own horrors and wrong doings, while significantly being biased towards their own input (by contrast). If you look at WW2 as capitalistic entertainment- You see the fetish of downplaying the soviet involvement, painting the colonial european powers in the best light possible. It's not really accurate at all, but more of a propaganda campaign.

But coverage is that way, because that's the attitudes people have. People are not interested in the truth, as much as what they want to be the truth. So if you are european or American, chances are that you will watch the WW2 film with something more relateable. That Russian WW2 film? Who cares? That's not the type of film that is going to get to the top of the charts, because that's not the hero tale we want to jerk of too. So you get a vastly disproportionate picture that downplays the insanity of the russian loss of life.
There has been a lot of movies made about the eastern front of WW2, but it's a fraction compared to what has been made about it from a Euro/American point of view.

It's also important to understand that teaching history changes all the time, because values, trends, fears and likes changes. WW2, like slavery, colonialism and so on, will not be covered like this in a hundred years. Every new major period changes how history is written, taught and delivered, and the bias of people have a lot to say.
Particularly now, we're in a age of being sensitive to uncomfortable truths.
Particularly in the sciences. Problems teaching biology that asks uncomfortable questions of a sexist nature is particularly a no-go. But attitudes will change. There will be a counter reaction in the future where the pendulum will go the other way, and that will change how literature is covered and conveyed.

My friend who is a historian told me that, one of the largest and most complicated aspects of understanding history, is to separate yourself and your own values from the story. You spend most of your time, not trying to understand people of history and judge them through our current values.
If you read about a historical figure like Benjamin Franklin (or whoever) and your conclusion is that they are a major racist and a bigot- You've stopped trying to understand history and reduced it to making your own op-ed. You've failed to understand, and examine how Franklin would have been perceived in his time. That's what makes history really, really difficult. Because you need an almost inhumane level of emotional dissonance to truly get into the bone of something without diluting it with what you want to get out of it.
History- His Story. It's written recorded history, not the actual story of what happened. Everyone who looses, everyone who got caught off, often didn't get to read their version of events. So the story you have is relayed to you from those who were powerful enough to shout it loudest, and through most venues. And then it takes a life of its.

At a certain point, fake news, or incorrect history might as well be real, because if enough people vehemently believe into to be real and start acting on it being real, then (ironically) it can creates the real life conditions for it to become more real.
Like you can incorrectly interpretate historical sources that say immigrants bring crime and tear down established societies. So you start harassing immigrants in your country, and soon you've disenfranchised and mistreated the immigrants so much, they become radicalized and actually go to crime. So through incorrect history you've actually carved out a reality for your own lie. It's a paradox.

 

[mAcOdIn]

Why create more tension and division in an already divided and tense society? What is gained from it? We need to get kids to think about the future and focus their efforts towards that. Getting more people hung up on the past helps no one.

Who the fuck's hung up on what they're taught in elementary school? And what division are we worried about fostering? Division between the pro-slavery and anti-slavery camps?

And getting kids to focus on the future and not dwell on the past, is that an attack on teaching accurate history or an attack on teaching history at all?

 

[RM8]

Any Mexicans here - do we have a similar thing? Denying history and stuff? Because when I read about this, or Japan, it just feels unbelievable to me. I'm pretty sure Mexicans are aware that Mexico was built on top of the corpse of prehispanic cultures, we know why even indigenous people are Catholics, every year we repeat that we'll never forget 1968, etc.

But maybe I'm missing something obvious?

 

[King Tubby]

Why create more tension and division in an already divided and tense society? What is gained from it? We need to get kids to think about the future and focus their efforts towards that. Getting more people hung up on the past helps no one.

The past is not just the past, though. The problem of papering over the flaws in history extends to the lens people use to view the present. If you are taught that slavery wasn't really all that bad, that the Civil War happened because of states' rights and other anodyne topics, that racism ended in the 1960's, it affects how you view social movements and political discourse in the modern day. People ARE thinking about the future, because the way a society moves forward is shaped in large part by how it views and understands the events of its past and the paths that have taken it to where it is today. How can a society be expected to improve itself if it chooses to ignore its flaws?

 

[le.phat]

Why create more tension and division in an already divided and tense society? What is gained from it? We need to get kids to think about the future and focus their efforts towards that. Getting more people hung up on the past helps no one.

You don't get to duck from the facts just because they're uncomfortable. Are you seriously suggesting we should condone a half-truth if it's 'better for society?'. You sound like a corrupt politician. Get your moral compass checked, dude.

 

[Dryk]

Why create more tension and division in an already divided and tense society? What is gained from it? We need to get kids to think about the future and focus their efforts towards that. Getting more people hung up on the past helps no one.

Can you honestly take a look at the current state of America and say that teaching children that the country's actions are always ultimately justified is a good thing?

 

[sant]

Who the fuck's hung up on what they're taught in elementary school? And what division are we worried about fostering? Division between the pro-slavery and anti-slavery camps?

And getting kids to focus on the future and not dwell on the past, is that an attack on teaching accurate history or an attack on teaching history at all?

Kids are impressionable and things they learn then stick with them.

Like the poster above me said, you are supposed to look at history thru the eyes of the people who lived it, and leave your own biases and opinions at the door. Telling the kids the Founding Fathers are evil because they owned slaves for example. Kids are not sophisticated enough to understand that didn't make them bad people.

Painting America as an evil empire are the divisions I am worried about. Like I said, kids aren't mature enough to understand grey areas and I would rather have their opinions be skewed positively than negatively. The ones that are curious and interested in a more accurate representation will learn about it in University or on their own. It is not like historians are being actively suppressed and censored.

 

[Haly]

Articles like this just like to pretend literally every other great empire hasn't been built on the same suffering and cruelty. The Ottomans, the Chinese, the Persians, the Spanish, all subjugated their enemies and did bad stuff. Should we just teach history from the victim's perspective?

Yes.

It's to create empathy and to hammer in the fact that imperialism is wrong, a lesson our people can sorely use right now.

Kids are not sophisticated enough to understand that didn't make them bad people.

They are bad people. They were products of their time but their time generally produced bad people.

It is not like historians are being actively suppressed and censored.

Uh huh.

 

[Hypron]

Kids are impressionable and things they learn then stick with them.

Like the poster above me said, you are supposed to look at history thru the eyes of the people who lived it, and leave your own biases and opinions at the door. Telling the kids the Founding Fathers are evil because they owned slaves for example. Kids are not sophisticated enough to understand that didn't make them bad people.

Painting America as an evil empire are the divisions I am worried about. Like I said, kids aren't mature enough to understand grey areas and I would rather have their opinions be skewed positively than negatively. The ones that are curious and interested in a more accurate representation will learn about it in University or on their own. It is not like historians are being actively suppressed and censored.

German kids are taught their country did some massively fucked up shit, and if anything it seems like it's working better for them than the approach the US (and other countries) is taking.

 

[KarneeKarnay]

Every nation has done this in some way or form. It's why uncovering it and bringing it back into the light is so important. People need to learn about this unless we end up doing it again in the future.

I for one knew very little about the Irish slave trade until recently. I'm half-Irish and raised in England.

If you aren't taught about this sort of stuff in school, the majority of people won't know unless they go looking.

 

[Haly]

Oh this one isn't America but it's new in these discussions as far as I'm aware:

 

[paradise_circus]

German kids are taught their country did some massively fucked up shit, and if anything it seems like it's working better for them than the approach the US (and other countries) is taking.

However, many kids are still indoctrinated by their elders downplaying the cruelties.
Countries like Germany show how history lessons should never be enforced by parents.

 

[sant]

Yes.

It's to create empathy and to hammer in the fact that imperialism is wrong, a lesson our people can sorely use right now.

Without Imperialism they wouldn't be able to enjoy the standard of living they do today. The North American continent would have been made up of many smaller nations and America would have never became a superpower. Society is okay with Imperialism as long as we benefit. Look at the revelations about Foxconn factory workers. Nobody cares.

They are bad people. They were products of their time but their time generally produced bad people.

That is like saying we are all bad people because we eat plants and animals. What if in 200 years everything is grown in a lab and never "alive" and they view our actions are cruel and inhumane? Does that make us all bad people?

Uh huh.

Ok I had no idea it was that bad.

 

[Oberon]

Just as bad to what? National pride? What is harmed by thinking only negatively about the errors of our past? Why should I care if a school kid looks at our misdeeds and thinks they were bad and doesn't see any gray? What is harmed?

I think he means just as bad as other empires.
One think I always wondered about history is how much the ends justified the means. Most nations that are on top usually are because of a mountain of corpses I feel like most things are morally justifiable if enough time passes. I don't mean in a personal sense, but more of a historical sense.
I think Germany is like the only one owning up to their shit (at least when it comes to Nazism), but that's because they had no choice.
Why bring up something that makes you look bad and not the greatest nation and culture? There's no downside (except morally) to just revision history to make it look in your favour if you have the power to do it.

 

[Haly]

Without Imperialism they wouldn't be able to enjoy the standard of living they do today. The North American continent would have been made up of many smaller nations and America would have never became a superpower.

You say this like it's a bad thing...?

I mean yeah god forbid indigenous Americans still held America today and they never rose to super power status. How horrible.

Society is okay with Imperialism as long as we benefit. Look at the revelations about Foxconn factory workers. Nobody cares.

Yeah, and this is bad, because people think imperialism is okay, and don't appreciate the costs of the flourishing of their society, and this is one of the failings of our educational system, among many many other failings.

That is like saying we are all bad people because we eat plants and animals. What if in 200 years everything is grown in a lab and never "alive" and they view our actions are cruel and inhumane? Does that make us all bad people?

This is the privilege of those who come after, to judge those who came before. With the benefit of hindsight, we know now that slavery was bad and slavers were bad and people who enabled/profited off of slavery were all complicit. Centuries later we will be judged for our sins as a society, by my guess, predominantly climate change and natural resource waste.

 

[Gunblade47]

Without Imperialism they wouldn't be able to enjoy the standard of living they do today. The North American continent would have been made up of many smaller nations and America would have never became a superpower. Society is okay with Imperialism as long as we benefit.

Wtf are you talking about.

Imperialism, just like colonialism,happened and affects our nations today. That doesn't mean that they were perfect and above scrutiny. You're points parrot that of my grandfather that passed away

"Everyone blames apartheid but no one ever looks at the good aspects. Because of it africa had infrastructure, culture, religion, economic power, medicine, law, education and order. The world they enjoy today is because of the apartheid system."

It completely subverts the attrocities that both you and I know were caused at the hands of apartheid just so that we can feel better about our ancestors.

Edit: Not to mention it glorifies European centric ideologies as the only objectively correct ideologies.

People need to move forward from these legacies and moving forward means facing the "uncomfortable" truth of our past.

 

[pirateluigi]

Kids are impressionable and things they learn then stick with them.

Like the poster above me said, you are supposed to look at history thru the eyes of the people who lived it, and leave your own biases and opinions at the door. Telling the kids the Founding Fathers are evil because they owned slaves for example. Kids are not sophisticated enough to understand that didn't make them bad people.

Painting America as an evil empire are the divisions I am worried about. Like I said, kids aren't mature enough to understand grey areas and I would rather have their opinions be skewed positively than negatively. The ones that are curious and interested in a more accurate representation will learn about it in University or on their own. It is not like historians are being actively suppressed and censored.

You're right that kids are impressionable. That's why it's important not to teach them that America is perfect, that our founding fathers were saints, or that the pilgrims brought civilization and culture to the west.

Kids are capable of understanding a lot more than you give them credit for, and the idea that sometimes good people do bad things isn't that hard to grasp. But teaching American exceptionalism and downplaying the truth of history leads to adults that downplay the reality of racism and oppression that exists. It's a lot harder to convince an adult that something is wrong when they spent their formative years learning America is nigh on perfect.

 

[mAcOdIn]

Kids are impressionable and things they learn then stick with them.

Like the poster above me said, you are supposed to look at history thru the eyes of the people who lived it, and leave your own biases and opinions at the door. Telling the kids the Founding Fathers are evil because they owned slaves for example. Kids are not sophisticated enough to understand that didn't make them bad people.

Painting America as an evil empire are the divisions I am worried about. Like I said, kids aren't mature enough to understand grey areas and I would rather have their opinions be skewed positively than negatively. The ones that are curious and interested in a more accurate representation will learn about it in University or on their own. It is not like historians are being actively suppressed and censored.

Well, frankly I think the founding fathers were pretty shit, and that's ok.

I hope, hope, that generations down the line people think I was a piece of shit, that'll mean that we've progressed. I care not for their sympathy towards any weird hang-ups I have nor do I care for their empathy for the time period I live in. Product of the time sure but if I fail to live up to whatever standards they have in the future I hope they'll feel free to say as much.

That's how I think we really progress as a people, by leaving our damn egos at the door.

 

[Fallout-NL]

(This Future Looks Familiar: Watching Blade Runner in 2017, also worth a read)

Man, I feel stupid now.

 

[patapuf]

Kids are impressionable and things they learn then stick with them.

Like the poster above me said, you are supposed to look at history thru the eyes of the people who lived it, and leave your own biases and opinions at the door. Telling the kids the Founding Fathers are evil because they owned slaves for example. Kids are not sophisticated enough to understand that didn't make them bad people.

Painting America as an evil empire are the divisions I am worried about. Like I said, kids aren't mature enough to understand grey areas and I would rather have their opinions be skewed positively than negatively. The ones that are curious and interested in a more accurate representation will learn about it in University or on their own. It is not like historians are being actively suppressed and censored.

Kids are totally able to get nuance.

There's no need to pretend america, the consitution or the founding fathers were perfect. You can convey that without demonising the country.

People (and kids) being aware of the history of slavery and native amercians in the US will not make America a more divided nation. If anything, more understanding helps unity.

 

[scamander]

However, many kids are still indoctrinated by their elders downplaying the cruelties.
Countries like Germany show how history lessons should never be enforced by parents.

That's not true at all. What the fuck are you even talking about? In what way are history lessons enforced by parents in Germany?

 

[Shadybiz]

Sounds interesting; subbed so I can read with my full attention in a couple of hours.

 

[NoName999]

Without Imperialism they wouldn't be able to enjoy the standard of living they do today. The North American continent would have been made up of many smaller nations and America would have never became a superpower. Society is okay with Imperialism as long as we benefit. Look at the revelations about Foxconn factory workers. Nobody cares.


That is like saying we are all bad people because we eat plants and animals. What if in 200 years everything is grown in a lab and never "alive" and they view our actions are cruel and inhumane? Does that make us all bad people?

Are you fucking serious, right now? Did you really just compare genocide, rape, slavery, and invasion to a natural bodily function?

 

[Ghost Rider]

So, I always teach my students the saying “He who writes it, rights it” and they are always annoyed and hesitant until I start breaking down howit works. This year I had to do it earlier because a student tried to challenge me and say that of all the slaves this country had, the Irish were treated the worst.

As for books, I really enjoy Tony Horwitz for his ability to peel back layers and look at the actual history. A Voyage Long and Strange is great in that regard.

 

[Norwegian Rudo]

That's not true at all. What the fuck are you even talking about? In what way are history lessons enforced by parents in Germany?

He's not saying parents are teaching history, but that them talking about it and downplaying what happened influences kids as well.

 

[Infinite]

So, I always teach my students the saying “He who writes it, rights it” and they are always annoyed and hesitant until I start breaking down howit works. This year I had to do it earlier because a student tried to challenge me and say that of all the slaves this country had, the Irish were treated the worst.

As for books, I really enjoy Tony Horwitz for his ability to peel back layers and look at the actual history. A Voyage Long and Strange is great in that regard.

what grade you teach?

 

[plagiarize]

This is why a couple of decades ago, the GOP went after school boards. Teach people this shit and you swing them further right.

 

[paradise_circus]

That's not true at all. What the fuck are you even talking about? In what way are history lessons enforced by parents in Germany?

I somehow forgot to write a sentence about the kids of migrants where parents romantize with the country of there ancestors.
Hence, that's why I find it important that history should be treated scholarly.

 

[Sunster]

Without Imperialism they wouldn't be able to enjoy the standard of living they do today. The North American continent would have been made up of many smaller nations and America would have never became a superpower. Society is okay with Imperialism as long as we benefit. Look at the revelations about Foxconn factory workers. Nobody cares.


That is like saying we are all bad people because we eat plants and animals. What if in 200 years everything is grown in a lab and never "alive" and they view our actions are cruel and inhumane? Does that make us all bad people?



Ok I had no idea it was that bad.

This isn't about feeling bad or white guilt. That doesn't help anyone. This is about accepting reality and not living in a fantasy world so we can finally deal with the issues our past has created today.

 

[cackhyena]

That's a fantastic read. Thanks for sharing.

Along similar lines I really enjoyed the novel 'Lies My Teacher Told Me'

Yep. Less My Teacher Told Me is solid.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Without Imperialism they wouldn't be able to enjoy the standard of living they do today. The North American continent would have been made up of many smaller nations and America would have never became a superpower. Society is okay with Imperialism as long as we benefit. Look at the revelations about Foxconn factory workers. Nobody cares.

Are you honestly trying to justify imperialism?

Imperialism is a thing that happened and we can't change that. But criticizing it through proper history lessons is a way to learn from the mistakes of our ancestors. We don't teach history for the sake of it, we teach it in hopes of not repeating it.

 

[Oberon]

Are you honestly trying to justify imperialism?

Imperialism is a thing that happened and we can't change that. But criticizing it through proper history lessons is a way to learn from the mistakes of our ancestors. We don't teach history for the sake of it, we teach it in hopes of not repeating it.

When did people ( the ones doing the imperialism) start thinking imperialism was bad? Was it because people starting feeling bad of the 3rd world countries being enslaved and wanted to free them? Was it after Nazi germany took the terretory of half of Europe? I doubt that because even after that a lot of Eurepean countries still had colonies. Is it after numerous nations around the world had to fight bloody wars to free themselves? This is a serious question, because if imperialism is a thing of the past not because its "immoral" but because it wasn't "sustainable" then that makes a huge difference.

 

[Bendeavor]

That is like saying we are all bad people because we eat plants and animals. What if in 200 years everything is grown in a lab and never "alive" and they view our actions are cruel and inhumane? Does that make us all bad people?

That's not a great hypothetical considering that our technology hasn't gotten to the point where something like that is sustainable. What you wrote before was actually a much better example:

Without Imperialism they wouldn't be able to enjoy the standard of living they do today. The North American continent would have been made up of many smaller nations and America would have never became a superpower. Society is okay with Imperialism as long as we benefit. Look at the revelations about Foxconn factory workers. Nobody cares.

Even now, we know that that supporting those conditions are horrible, and yet we do so anyway. Businesses could pay people halfway decent wages, but they don't because they want to make as much money as possible, and we don't care because we want the things we buy to be as affordable as possible.

We know it's wrong, and we don't care. Future generations would be absolutely right to say that we were bad people, because we are.