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Fighting Game Headquarters |3| [Cinematic Title Expansion Coming Soon]
- Thread starter notworksafe
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sixteen-bit
Member
unsettling af, lol
There's instant blocking and it was initially too good of a defensive option?
Is there any fighting game netcode people don't have issues with? Some (crazy) people prefer input delay to rollback because the teleporting is unacceptable whereas fighting underwater is OK, apparently. I always heard Tekken netcode was great but changing the timing of moves with their input delay seems kind of fucked up.
I guess the best would be Killer Instinct, maybe?
I guess the best would be Killer Instinct, maybe?
sixteen-bit
Member
Killer Desync?
I guess all fighting game netcode is garbage and the developers should be ashamed.
Just Defend, as it was in Garou MOTW, was a parry mechanic.
It gave some health back to the defender, reduced guard stun and allowed guard to be canceled into a special or super.
Holy Order Sol
Member
KOF XIII Steam netcode is okay, 98FE and 02UM with the delay you can adjust yourself is better were better.
CommandThrower
Member
With the statement of "we're prepared to fix any netcode issues post launch", that does give me some hope that even if the netcode for KOF XIV does turn out to be bad, the KOF XIV team is seemingly prepared to make improvements.
sixteen-bit
Member
I hope they do betas so they can get ahead of the problem instead of leaving it up to launch
Well if it's frame delay (and it sounds like it will be) there really isn't much they'd be able to do. Rewriting the netcode (and thus making changes to the core fighting engine as well) to be rollback is not likely.
CommandThrower
Member
Maybe.
The Mortal Kombat X team did eventually make a new rollback netcode from scratch, though. I believe MKX used frame delay netcode at launch. I know SNK ain't exactly making WB dollars, but the possibility is there now that we've seen it happen with an existing fighting game.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
input delay netcode
IN 2016
IN 2016
Hearing that KoFXIV is "building upon" the Steam version's netcode is an instant hype deflator and has pretty much zeroed out any interest I would have had for the game. It's the one thing they can't screw up and it's the one thing that gets screwed up over and over and over again. It's stupid -- they were only getting positive feedback for the PC release becuse XIII console's netcode was so bad. People don't think XIII PC's netcode is actually good.
Sigh. Anyone wanna play some Overwatch?
Tekken's approach is sensible for a 3D fighter, and IIRC VF5 and VF5:FS do something similar. (It's a bit touchier in VF as it doesn't have any baked in input delay (and much less delay than Tekken naturally has). It's a sensible approach for a 3D fighter but it's not something that can really be done in a 2D fighter (or else people would start looking like Magneto doing one frame shorts in MvC2). It works out, since your character has inputs without delay (up to a point), but all of the input from the other player is coming N frames late. The first frame is eaten by the intentional delay and then it lops off however many frames of startup from the move until either the movement is synced properly or the game hits an internal limit (as it's not going to remove 10 frames of animation from a jab that's 10 frames to start up), at which point the input delay for the player kicks in to compensate. It's basically rolling forward the opponent's state to sync the game instead of rolling back the entire game state -- it's less jarring but it doesn't mask higher input delay as well.
As for what games actually play well online, the two obvious picks are Skullgirls and Killer Instinct. There are some other ports and hacks that work well, but those are played by so few people nowadays that they may as well not exist to most people. I wouldn't even consider Tekken's implementation to be "good", just better than anything outside of the aforementioned games. It only really worked out for Tekken 7 in arcades because arcades in Japan are all on fiberoptics and even in the worst scenarios would barely be more than 1,000 miles apart (and would be usually far, far closer than that).
It's not easy to create a good online experience -- you have to get absurdly aggressive to deal with latency, and when you start doing that you start getting all sorts of anomalies that you have to address. There are a lot of difficult things that need to be done during a game's development, and competition for people's time is as fierce as it ever has been. However, it's yet another thing most fighting games are stuck in the 90s about and they don't do nearly enough to bring a good experience to people, and it's why the genre keeps getting left behind.
Sigh. Anyone wanna play some Overwatch?
For more casual players, inputs being delayed is much less obvious than having the game snap back to some random point in the game, especially if it keeps happening constantly (thanks Capcpom).
Tekken's approach is sensible for a 3D fighter, and IIRC VF5 and VF5:FS do something similar. (It's a bit touchier in VF as it doesn't have any baked in input delay (and much less delay than Tekken naturally has). It's a sensible approach for a 3D fighter but it's not something that can really be done in a 2D fighter (or else people would start looking like Magneto doing one frame shorts in MvC2). It works out, since your character has inputs without delay (up to a point), but all of the input from the other player is coming N frames late. The first frame is eaten by the intentional delay and then it lops off however many frames of startup from the move until either the movement is synced properly or the game hits an internal limit (as it's not going to remove 10 frames of animation from a jab that's 10 frames to start up), at which point the input delay for the player kicks in to compensate. It's basically rolling forward the opponent's state to sync the game instead of rolling back the entire game state -- it's less jarring but it doesn't mask higher input delay as well.
As for what games actually play well online, the two obvious picks are Skullgirls and Killer Instinct. There are some other ports and hacks that work well, but those are played by so few people nowadays that they may as well not exist to most people. I wouldn't even consider Tekken's implementation to be "good", just better than anything outside of the aforementioned games. It only really worked out for Tekken 7 in arcades because arcades in Japan are all on fiberoptics and even in the worst scenarios would barely be more than 1,000 miles apart (and would be usually far, far closer than that).
It's not easy to create a good online experience -- you have to get absurdly aggressive to deal with latency, and when you start doing that you start getting all sorts of anomalies that you have to address. There are a lot of difficult things that need to be done during a game's development, and competition for people's time is as fierce as it ever has been. However, it's yet another thing most fighting games are stuck in the 90s about and they don't do nearly enough to bring a good experience to people, and it's why the genre keeps getting left behind.
Honestly, I wouldn't even bother thinking about his statement. You hear lots of platitudes from people in this industry that don't even amount to a hill of beans, and unless they are willing to gut the whole thing and replace it with a better implementation (which needs to happen, but won't because of the amount of time and experience needed) it won't appreciably improve.
irfaanator
Banned
pc kof13 steam netcode was miles ahead of the console one. You could at least play people in the same state w/ little to no delay
Building upon what they learned with XIII Steam, he didn't say they were actually using the old netcode.
The game seems to be fully taking into account that it is a console game with not only its features but game balance as well. As mentioned above they were even balancing mechanics while taking online play into account.
So yeah, netcode is my only worry with the game but I wouldn't write it off just yet.
Well, yeah, the console version had some of the worst netcode ever.
Being able to play people that I see regularly anyway isn't some accomplishment.
irfaanator
Banned
for that game it was
I played a Brazilian person on the PS3 version of XIII. The levels of lag made the game into a comic book, and the guy sent a message after wards laughing at me. No game made me so salty like that day.
irfaanator
Banned
the best part of kof13 netcode was watching madkof vids of him playing online and doing hd combos
SquirrelSoup
Member
If NRS can fix their netcode anyone can.
Holy Order Sol
Member
Yatagarasu had delay-based netcode and it's among the best.
you either can't read or automatically jump to the worst possible conclusion for no reason
XIII SE let me play from France with people around Europe in good conditions. EU-USA doesn't work but that's a dumb thing to try in general.
you either can't read or automatically jump to the worst possible conclusion for no reason
XIII SE let me play from France with people around Europe in good conditions. EU-USA doesn't work but that's a dumb thing to try in general.
They were releasing a huge, paid update. They had a reason to fix their netcode. Especially as they could spread development costs around between XL and Injustice 2 (which is probably why XL got new netcode to begin with).
TL;DR cross your fingers for KOF XV.
they were also competing with SFV
SquirrelSoup
Member
I meant it was super garbage and then they managed to fix it.
Budget-wise, sure maybe. There's smaller budget games with great netcode too. Like Skullgirls.
One thing I feel that gets constantly overlooked, or at least not mentioned, when talking about everything NRS is able to do is the fact that WB has lots of money.
SNK is almost certainly not in a position to launch with one type of netcode and some time later run betas and change their netcode from the ground up.
sixteen-bit
Member
what if they crowdsource better netcode from fans like Melty, lol.
Kalamari
Member
Minor corrections, but PC SF4 had PS3's level of input lag with the default v-sync (6.2 vs 6.4), closer to 360's input lag with alternate driver-based v-sync (5.7 vs 5.1) and less input lag than everything else with v-sync off (3.5).
PC SF5 also has less input lag than PS4 regardless of settings (7.1 stock or 4.6 v-sync off vs. PS4's 7.9 frames).
Rollback netcodes in other titles typically add (or even allow you to manually adjust) a variable amount of input lag in comparison to offline gameplay while playing online. I believe reducing this variability to keep overall input lag as consistent as possible across offline and online (regardless of connection quality) was the original intent, so adding input lag makes sense in that regard.
However, there's still a discrepancy between offline and online input lag so they failed there (online delay is consistent regardless of opponent, though). Also, the netcode was outsourced to a mobile-focused Korean team and considering that they're long gone by now (leaving behind defective netcode), the "intentionally" added input lag is now funnier.
V-sync is archaic in 2016. IMO, fighting games on consoles should add a v-sync toggle and allow for higher refresh modes like 120hz/144hz. Tearing isn't noticeable at all in these kinds of games when using high refresh monitors. Whether it's up to Sony/MS or the game dev in question to add it should be done.
skLaFarebear
Member
Floe's first tourney back! Gonna be cheering for him at Wizard World.
MiniBossBattle
Member
Rashid won a
tournement
n editor
shaowebb
Member
OMG they literally made a dude whose fighting style is meth head. Dude has MEF TOOF, wide staring eyes and in the middle of his own super he just drifts off and stares at something that isn't there forever.
This guy. This fucking guy.
sixteen-bit
Member
L*merboi taking Evo in a surprise upset, just watch.
skLaFarebear
Member
Rashid top tier.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Lol man fell again today and fucked up my knee. Had to actually call 911 this time. This shit has sucked lately starting to mentally wear me down.
On a more positive note I really liked the showing of stuff at e3 this year. Lots of fun new stuff on the horizon
On a more positive note I really liked the showing of stuff at e3 this year. Lots of fun new stuff on the horizon
irfaanator
Banned
damn that sucks, hope you get better
Thomasorus
Member
Thanks for the details!
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Yeah just chilling in bed for the rest of the day. Thankfully my friend set it up a few weeks ago so I can play my ps4 from bed now so I'm not annoyed at my lack of being able to play gg and other stuff xD
ãInaba Residentã
Banned
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