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[MrAngryFace]

All up in my grill now?

 

[FightyF]

That is the thing, panzer is not a "sim", but neither are SF2 games. But VF games are though. The probalem is that the fighting genre isnt differentiated like that. VF is apparently on the same genreas SF2, yet somehow SSB is not. Hence why I am arguing this.

The point is that one game is extremely different, and I thought you'd be able to recognize the difference. PD is on rails, whereas games such as Starfighter, Colony Wars, Ace Combat...aren't. Now Colony Wars isn't a sim game, but it does allow you to fly in all directions.

The restrictive nature of PD also restricts it from being compared to these other games. Again, like claiming that Virtua Cop is an FPS game, it isn't. Smash Bros, same deal, it's not a fighting game. Sure, you fight people, just as in VC you shoot people and just as in PD you fly around.

I don't know if we should be discussing this in this thread though...I don't know if Leguna would appreciate it.

 

[anotheriori]

That is the thing, panzer is not a "sim", but neither are SF2 games. But VF games are though. The probalem is that the fighting genre isnt differentiated like that. VF is apparently on the same genreas SF2, yet somehow SSB is not. Hence why I am arguing this.

I think the fact that SSB is NOT a fighting game in the sense SF2 is that because yes.. the rule of a pro beating a newbie is a rule that should be followed... why? because it shows development or talent of skill. otherwise if newbies won easily without skill/talent it would be Random.. like rock paper scissors that game is not a skill game.. its all about luck. SSB falls more into a "luck" type game then SF2, yes it does take a certain amount of skill.. and isn't simple as RPS, but there it too much randomness to make the match calculated and strategized in the way a 1 vs 1 type fightin game is.
SSB is more like a sub-genre or a different genre all together, just because the format of combat is different its not 1 vs 1. So while a 1 vs 1 match is controlled to some extent, SSB type games are not.. like it could be 3 vs 1 with usage of randomly dropping weapons or 3 guys standing on different ledges knocking the other guy down.

 

[masud]

Goes to show how shallow the game is...

Simple? Yes. Shallow? Hell no. In fact thats the best thing about SSBM, if you know how to play your NOT going to lose to a rookie, at all. You can't say the same for most 3D fighters.

No not at all, the term fighter is much broader than flight simulator or light gun game. Fighters include games like Street fighter and soul caliber, how are those games similar? Oooooh I see, no Nintendo characters.

edit: The person above me has never seen anyone that was good at SSBM. With all the items on the luck factor is comprable to Soul Caliber. Anyone thats says that a 1on1 SSBM match with no items is about luck is a fool. That's how me and my freinds play. The other modes become a bonus, they're fun as hell but not a test of skill.

 

[Monk]

SSB is more like a sub-genre or a different genre all together, just because the format of combat is different its not 1 vs 1. So while a 1 vs 1 match is controlled to some extent, SSB type games are not.. like it could be 3 vs 1 with usage of randomly dropping weapons or 3 guys standing on different ledges knocking the other guy down.

I have been there and done that in SSBM, and I can tell you now, that the single guy can beat the three even with the randomness, I was on the crying end. The amount of dominance a skillful player has in SSBM is almost in crime. I never play 1v1 against my brother because of that. Every thing can be countered, there is an element of luck, but the element of skill is far more prominent.

I don't know if we should be discussing this in this thread though...I don't know if Leguna would appreciate it.

I agree. Hopefully a nice mod will move it into another thread and leave leguna alone.


I will give it a rest now, I will just agree to disagree.

 

[masud]

See? SEE?!
This is why I pleaded that we keep the goddamn Smash talk out of the fighting threads.
Now you got Nintendo all up in your grill, and another Leguna thread is ruined.

We will be heard! But yeah I'm done too. gotta stop procrastinating on this comp sci project it's already 4am! :lol

 

[dog$]

Like I said last time this came up:

Did anyone consider this

a Fighting Game?

No?

Then neither is Smash Bros.

 

[Shouta]

KOF actually creates good/unique character designs

I have to disagree G =P.

leguna is the master of owning himself, wish I could add onto his tag. He and Konex need dual tags "Konex and leguna, owning themselves daily since...well, forever"

 

[Hero]

SSB invented it's own genre, which is the platformer fighter.

Why are people so quick to dismiss it as a fighting game?

Describe to me what a fighting game is classified as and more than likely, SSB has it.

The beauty of Smash Bros. is that you can alter and modify the game type to suit your own needs. Some people prefer time matches while others prefer stock. Maybe some people like coin battle, or the HP style, which *gasp*, has your character with a health system!

There are advanced techniques which not anyone who picks up the controller can play, and for only using a few primary buttons, there's a complex and mostly unique moveset that every character has.

The match ups are almost infinite. A character like Samus or Fox on a stage like Final Destination has a huge advantage since their projectiles can go straight across the level. But on a level like Hyrule Castle or Great Fox that advantage gets taken away since the opponent can easily use the layout to protect themselves.

A lot of people say items are about luck, and while it's true, a lot of those items need to be skillfully used or else they can even backfire on you. A player who is more skilled than the other shouldn't have a problem taking out someone wielding a Power Hammer or should easily dodge a thrown Bob-omb or other projectile.

Anybody who has seen two (or more) skilled players play this game can attest that this isn't a button-masher.

 

[Monk]

Did anyone consider this

a Fighting Game?.

A more fitting question would be, did anyone play this?


From what I read in the review, all you couldd do is throw things?

 

[dog$]

Why are people so quick to dismiss it as a fighting game?

The answer is because

SSB invented it's own genre, which is the platformer fighter.

Trying to compromise what makes Smash Bros a Smash Bros game for the sake of grouping it in the Fighting Game genre slights the genre and the game.

From what I read in the review, all you couldd do is throw things?

Well, so what.
Using the "SSB is a fighting game" argument, you have a game with a cast of selectable people where you use physical force to cause damage in a structured format of actions and rounds. So why couldn't Poy Poy be a fighter?
And you need to do more than throw things to become a Fighting Game? Really?

 

[Ferrio]

What, huh? Fuck this crap...

 

[Monk]

And you need to do more than throw things to become a Fighting Game? Really?

@_@ I have no idea what you are trying to argue here. But you have successfully got me confused. The argument that SSBM is a fighter is beased on the fact that you can do almost anything you can do in a traditional fighting game.

I think the problem is that fighting games have no real definition of what they are. SF2 came and all of a sudden the term "fighting game" was coined.

 

[Hero]

The answer is because
Trying to compromise what makes Smash Bros a Smash Bros game for the sake of grouping it in the Fighting Game genre slights the genre and the game.

Well, so what.
Using the "SSB is a fighting game" argument, you have a game with a cast of selectable people where you use physical force to cause damage in a structured format of actions and rounds. So why couldn't Poy Poy be a fighter?
And you need to do more than throw things to become a Fighting Game? Really?

The only way that a genre can evolve is if it expands.

I never said Poy Poy couldn't be a fighter, considering I've never even played it.

I don't see how people can consider a game like MvC2 a fighting game and not SSB. Considering that MvC2 is one of the most broken games ever and there's little if any 'fighting' going on..

 

[dog$]

@_@ I have no idea what you are trying to argue here. But you have successfully got me confused. The argument that SSBM is a fighter is beased on the fact that you can do almost anything you can do in a traditional fighting game.

So, in the same vein, is The Guardian Legend the best shooter ever made because it has shooter levels in addition to a whole bunch of non-shooter stuff that compliments those points of the game? No. When a game takes certain aspects of genre tenets and mutates the remaining portion of the game into something else, the entire game becomes something else; hence, it can very well can cross a line where it is illogical to consider this new game as manditorily within the genre which it has transcended.

I don't see how people can consider a game like MvC2 a fighting game and not SSB. Considering that MvC2 is one of the most broken games ever and there's little if any 'fighting' going on..

Stop letting your opinion defile your arguments.
You think MC2 is broken? Good for you.
MC2 is certainly a Fighting Game thanks to the common themes of control and gameplay structure which it shares with other fighting games before and after it, and for the fact that all interaction occurs between the characters as opposed to the stages they are fighting on.

A grey area between this and SB would be something like how stages are handled in DOA where certain aspects of stage interaction affect the game structure as opposed to pure graphical effect (ie compared to background changes/evolution in Capcom/KOF fighters); however it's evident from the amount of control you have with the DOA characters and the DOA system that it's still a Fighting Game.

Now consider stages like F-Zero or Pokemon Floats... in these parts it more feels like it's a struggle to survive the platform instead of suriving the other combatant(s); when you're no longer Fighting against other combatants in order to survive I'd assert you are no longer playing a Fighting Game.

Furthermore, consider Guardian Heroes. There's even a mode where you select up to 6 people to fight-to-the-death in an enclosed area; the characters there can block, evade, have special commands to input, and can interact with items on the stage. Does anyone argue that Guardian Heroes is a Fighting Game? If so, I haven't heard it.

It seems rather clear to me that Smash Bros. borrows a lot of gameplay components from fighters and beat 'em ups, and in the end becomes a game that is different from both of those genres.

So why argue that it belongs in either one?

 

[Hero]

Stop letting your opinion defile your arguments.
You think MC2 is broken? Good for you.
MC2 is certainly a Fighting Game thanks to the common themes of control and gameplay structure which it shares with other fighting games before and after it, and for the fact that all interaction occurs between the characters as opposed to the stages they are fighting on.

A grey area between this and SB would be something like how stages are handled in DOA where certain aspects of stage interaction affect the game structure as opposed to pure graphical effect (ie compared to background changes/evolution in Capcom/KOF fighters); however it's evident from the amount of control you have with the DOA characters and the DOA system that it's still a Fighting Game.

Now consider stages like F-Zero or Pokemon Floats... in these parts it more feels like it's a struggle to survive the platform instead of suriving the other combatant(s); when you're no longer Fighting against other combatants in order to survive I'd assert you are no longer playing a Fighting Game.

Furthermore, consider Guardian Heroes. There's even a mode where you select up to 6 people to fight-to-the-death in an enclosed area; the characters there can block, evade, have special commands to input, and can interact with items on the stage. Does anyone argue that Guardian Heroes is a Fighting Game? If so, I haven't heard it.

It seems rather clear to me that Smash Bros. borrows a lot of gameplay components from fighters and beat 'em ups, and in the end becomes a game that is different from both of those genres.

So why argue that it belongs in either one?

MvC2 is a 2D fighting game, yes, but you're quick to take an offensive position against SSB due to its levels and 'different' control, and I'm taking an offensive position against MvC2 for not only its broken assist system, but the numerous bugs, glitches, and exploits it has. It's a fighting game, I'm not arguing that, but the fact of the matter is that a lot of people shun that game due to its different gameplay system which revolves around air combo juggles that are inescapable mostly due to cheap or exploits in assist characters.

Back to SSB, I said it created its own genre. It didn't take long for someone to rip it off either. There's that Hudson/Takara/Konami fighter, and I hear the Naruto PS2 games are quite SSB-esque.

I didn't argue which genre it belonged to, all I did was ask why people don't even consider it as a type of competitive fighting game.

You draw the comparison to DoA. Let's take it further. In Virtua Fighter and Soul Calibur, a person who is a sliver away from health can knock a perfect-healthy opponent out of the ring for the win. How is that any different from struggling to survive in a SSB level? You have to position yourself in a way that it maximizes your chances of survival.

And Guardian Heroes has a multiplayer fighting system, and I'm not going to argue that you can't do it, but the way it was designed was not meant to be serious, as a good 3/4 of the characters are regular enemies who have a handful of moves. It was merely a way to give the game an expanded replay value.

 

[dog$]

You draw the comparison to DoA. Let's take it further. In Virtua Fighter and Soul Calibur, a person who is a sliver away from health can knock a perfect-healthy opponent out of the ring for the win. How is that any different from struggling to survive in a SSB level? You have to position yourself in a way that it maximizes your chances of survival.

In VF and SC you don't have to struggle the charachter's movement against the stage itself in order to survive. Irregular surfaces and boundaries in no way compare to the acrobatics you must perform in order to even stay visible on half of the Smash Bros stages.

I didn't argue which genre it belonged to, all I did was ask why people don't even consider it as a type of competitive fighting game.

Again, you answer your own question; by SSBM creating its own genre it no longer belongs in the Fighting Game genre.

 

[Sp3eD]

And after all this fighting and arguing, one thing that everybody can agree on is that Dead Or Alive is total fucking crap.

 

[Die Squirrel Die]

And after all this fighting and arguing, one thing that everybody can agree on is that Dead Or Alive is total fucking crap.

It's alright in an undemanding kinda way, until you get to the boss battle, seriously, wtf were Team Ninja thinking with those. The blurry Tengu battle in DoA2HC was bad, the Tengu in DoAU, with his 'let's-change-the-weather-on-the-stage-but-slow-the-whole-thing-down-to-hell-in-the-meantime' thing, but that last boss in DoA3 is beyond a joke.

 

[jarrod]

I think the fact that SSB is NOT a fighting game in the sense SF2 is that because yes.. the rule of a pro beating a newbie is a rule that should be followed... why? because it shows development or talent of skill. otherwise if newbies won easily without skill/talent it would be Random.. like rock paper scissors that game is not a skill game.. its all about luck.

Well, I guess Tekken and DOA aren't fighters either then.

This Smash Bros is/isn't a fighter talk is going nowhere as usual. Bottom line, the central game is about combat, Smash Bros fits into the figting genre better than any other. The same goes for Tobal, Power Stone, Erghiez, Bushido Blade, Spawn/Heavy Metal, WWE, Slam Masters, Fire Pro, Dynasty Warriors 1, Rakugaki Showtime, Virtual On, Gotcha Force, Gundam Vs... these games are all at their core "fighting" games, despite not following in the footsteps of Street Fighter or Virtua Fighter. They all follow some basic genre rules and they all retain some aspects of traditional fighters as well even. They might not be the exact same type of fighting game, but that's were sub-genre classifications can come in (2D, 3D, party, wrestling, mech, etc). But they're all 100% fighting games.

 

[Oichi]

I actually lost half of my brain cells reading leguna's post. Just... wow.

 

[Hitokage]

This Smash Bros is/isn't a fighter talk is going nowhere as usual. Bottom line, the central game is about combat, Smash Bros fits into the figting genre better than any other. The same goes for Tobal, Power Stone, Erghiez, Bushido Blade, Spawn/Heavy Metal, WWE, Slam Masters, Fire Pro, Dynasty Warriors 1, Rakugaki Showtime, Virtual On, Gotcha Force, Gundam Vs... these games are all at their core "fighting" games, despite not following in the footsteps of Street Fighter or Virtua Fighter. They all follow some basic genre rules and they all retain some aspects of traditional fighters as well even. They might not be the exact same type of fighting game, but that's were sub-genre classifications can come in (2D, 3D, party, wrestling, mech, etc). But they're all 100% fighting games.

And Mario is "fighting" Goombas in SMB.. look, if you fall into this semantic gerrymandering then the whole fucking point of having genres in the first place is gone. SF2 and its one-on-one ringed combat ilk do belong in a specific genre and that genre happens to be named "fighting games"*, but the whole crusade to force-fit SSB into this genre really doesn't make sense... you don't HAVE to strictly fall into a single genre.

Maybe Nintendo fans crave acceptance.

 

[SaitoH]

Fighting games aren't really evolving because they've come to the point where designers know what works and what doesn't. Notice the trend for fighters to be in small, flat, caged arenas? That works. Running around jumping, using weapons, powerups, and such -while amusing- turns a fighting game into a serparate genre.

If I was to complain about sequals these days, it's that developers aren't putting enough effort into them. Games like DOA3 and Soul Calibur 2 are just minor graphic upgrades with no new game mechanics.

The other problem is that 3D fighters are in danger -if not already- of hardcoring (hurray for made up words!) themselves to death. Much like 2D fighters already have. While this isn't a problem for me, it is an issue for the genre at large.

For the sake of clarification: VF4 evo is the pinacle of 3D fighters and Tekken 5 is looking damn sweet.

^w^

 

[Leguna]

LyteEdge:
I keep an open mind on everything, if you're right, you're right and I'll give you credit for it. But you didn't own much here...

Just because *YOU* can't do the moves doesn't mean they are useless or far too hard to do in matches.

Hey, if you can show me one person in the WORLD that can do that knee move 10 times consecutive without messing up, then I'm wrong. I'm not just saying I can't do it, I'm saying NO ONE can.

the uneven playing surfaces added the same "random factor" to fights that you are bitching about in other games.

No that's not a random factor Lyte, that's a positioning disadvantage that, if you are good, can be avoided.

Hello...TOBAL. Remember that? It was the first game to have the movement in 8 directions. Soul Calibur did nothing "new" in that sense.

I stand corrected here. However, Soul Calibur had different moves depending on the direction the player was walking in which was what made it so special.

But forget all that. What you wrote above really shows what it is you like about these games: the GRAPHICS. The MUSIC. That's why you play them. I know you personally and I see this when I play games with you. This is why you wanted to play BLOODY ROAR PRIMAL FURY (for the music) over Virtua Fighter 4 when both games were first released.

Don't try to dumb down my reasons for liking a game. Graphics, music and GAMEPLAY all matter. Don't leave out the gameplay! And I think i played Bloody Roar a grand total of 20 times, that's it and it was ONLY for the music and character models. Bloody Roar from the beginning was a terrible game and i TOLD YOU that. You really enjoy painting a picture of me that just isn't true. I played VF4 WAY THE hell more than BR! Quit pulling this shit out of your ass. Manngc can vouch for this! We played each other in VF4 a good bit.

See, here it is again: You were amazed by the motion caprite and the game had great music. That's why you liked it.

You missed the part where I said, "the moves and the way to execute them was a whole new approach all together."

It's called "Ehrgeiz," remember that game? Same developer as Tobal. It did a lot of what Powerstone did (arguably better in many ways, but Ehrgeiz had deeper game play) first.

Ok, it pains me to agree here only becuase in PS i was referring to use your environment as your means of attack and Ehrgeiz only had the boxes, but yes Ehrgeiz would be the first.

And Capcom themselves made a similar game BEFORE Power Stone that was ported to the DC after PS was realized. It's called TECH ROMANCER

Uh, no. I guess you don't really know what PS added to the genre, because TR definitely didn't have it.

It was like a step back and a step forward at the same time. Don't bitch about other games and not this one.

SF3 added more than it took away. That's what's most important here. Besides, parrying was basically the same as countering, but better because the player can choose what move to retaliate with and it also was your aerial block in many ways, just harder to do.

I'll go into the short of it: KOF was the first fighting to feature teams of 3-on-3. It was the first fighting game to feature assist attacks from your other characters. The GAME PLAY, something you don't seem to go into enough depth on in anything, has always been continually evolving.

LOL!!! KOF was not the first game to have team battles, it was not the first to have assist attacks and the gameplay was NEVER anything new. Please stop with the, "you never talk about gameplay" because FACT is I ALWAYS DO!!! My final judgments always had a "GAMEPLAY" section, but that doesn't count does it? In every fighting listed above I mention a gameplay element that evolved the genre, but that doesn't count??? Stop with the false statements.

If you guys are wondering why the Vs. series was left out, it's because Leguna got made a friend of mine's BITCH in MvC1 years ago, sold off his import DC copy and both arcade sticks he ordered just for the game, and never played the series ever again. I don't think he's ever even played MvC2.

Awesome, i knew this was coming. I left out a lot of games man. Yes your friend beat me in a game i hardly played, good for him. END OF STORY!!!

you don't know what the fuck you're talking about on 99% of these games.

So let me get this straight, you disagree with "99%" of the stuff I said? Please confirm so i can put the smack down on you. You should write a similar article and see how different your's is.

Azelover:
I mention that BOTH VF3 and T3 help evolve the genre. But yes i agree that VF3 brought more to the table, T3 however was just a better game because of its execution of their new elements. I never said one evolved more than the other, i basically said one was more popular than the other.

The Faceless Master:
Do it, I dare you. Don't wimp out, write something!!! Don't under estimate my knowledge of gaming!!!! That really pisses me off. If you think you're right, THEN SAY SOMETHING!!!

Hitokage:
You having never played T4 really can't say anything.

KiNeSiS:
Thanks!

Andrew2:
I guess I have you beat then. I've been playing them before Street Fighter 1.

Kintaro:
Read my reply to your master LyteEdge. Then tell me what you think.

anotheriori:
I'll get back to you on the KOF thing, just know you are wrong and I'll come back with the exact titles that did that stuff before KOF. I just need to verify some of them.

almokla:
SSBM isn't skill based, enough said.

pjberri:
There is NO PLAYER IN THE WORLD THAT CAN DO AKIRA'S KNEE MOVE 10 TIMES IN A ROW! There is no such player. Stop thinking there is.

MrAngryFace:
Square arenas are fair, but that doesn't mean a game that doesnt have square arenas isn't. It all depends on how it's executed. How about instead of littering my threads with your immature bitching of me and actually make an attempt to say something supporting your opinion. I'm totally willing to dissuss gaming with you.

The problem with PS wasn't the fact that it was a prop fighter, it was that it wasn't too deep at all. But it was refreshing and well designed. I can't say the same for PS2.

Rorschach:
I'm keeping an open mind, but if you don't write anything supporting anything you believe, then how can I agree with it? Read what I wrote to LyteEdge and come back and tell me what you think!

Shouta:

leguna is the master of owning himself

I don't see that!

Reno:
Dude, then write something that supports your arguement! If I'm wrong, SAY why I'm wrong! I'm keeping an open mind on all of this!

 

[jarrod]

And Mario is "fighting" Goombas in SMB..

Well, that'd be where "They all follow some basic genre rules and they all retain some aspects of traditional fighters as well even." comes in. If you'd like we could explore these ideas, rather than defaulting to superficial examples.

look, if you fall into this semantic gerrymandering then the whole fucking point of having genres in the first place is gone.

I disagree, and it's not semantics I'm pushing here. Smash Bros is a fighting game because it makes sense in relation to it's game design as compared with all other games and established genres. It shares basic principles that all fighting games hold (emphasis on combat, set physical arena/boundries, character specific movesets/actions, complex fighting engine, round based general structure/progression, "health" bar, etc). Classifying it is what gives actual meaning to genres in fact, that's why we relate like with like.

SF2 and its one-on-one ringed combat ilk do belong in a specific genre and that genre happens to be named "fighting games"*, but the whole crusade to force-fit SSB into this genre really doesn't make sense... you don't HAVE to strictly fall into a single genre.

Thankfully that's where subgenres and classifications come into play. Like Simulation RPGs, party fighters or mech simulations. The "crusade" would be in more general genre classifications, more inclusive, then going from there. That way all games manage to have a logical place and definitions can show clear relationships and relate clear understanding.

Besides if "Smash bros" isn't a fighting game, then what is it? Platform? Sports? Role Playing? Where does it "fit"? Should it consitute an entirely new genre to itself, despite the abundance of similarities to established fighting convetions? And if "fighting games" allow such a narrow definition, what should that mean for other genres? Shining Force isn't really an RPG? Tony Hawk isn't a sports game? Mario Kart isn't a racing game? Gran Turismo isn't a racing game?

Maybe Nintendo fans crave acceptance.

Naw. More likely it's simply another case of arcade/hardcore elitism excuding anything that doesn't fit it's narrow definitions.

 

[haunts]

This thread is giving me a headache.


Bird-o,

There is this dude who can do VF combos with one hand. I bet he can do Akira's knee ten times in a row. :lol

 

[Leguna]

haunts:
Hey Haunts, TSUP! I can do VF combos with one hand too, so what so special about that? I'm telling you, NO ONE can do that Knee move 10 times in a row!

 

[bob_arctor]

VF3 was good, but Tekken 3 was just better and more daring with the moves and the way to execute them was a whole new approach all together. I remember being so amazed at watching good players play as Lei Wulong (the first fighting game to have really good drunken style fighting)

:lol

 

[haunts]

haunts:
I can do VF combos with one hand too, so what so special about that?

hahaha, you're so awesome.

if you play VF4 Evo you should come play us sometime. My Goh is getting pretty nasty...for being Goh anyway.. ^^;

 

[dog$]

Besides if "Smash bros" isn't a fighting game, then what is it?

Action, according to Nintendo of Japan.

If the company isn't calling it a fighting game ("格闘"), then why should we.

it's simply another case of arcade/hardcore elitism excuding anything that doesn't fit it's narrow definitions.

It doesn't have to be like that; I think it's more that people want to have rigid definitions with visible borders.

 

[FeedMeAStrayCat]

While I don't agree or disagree with all of the points made by Leguna (since I've never played the KOF series, etc.), I do agree with his general consensus. The fighting game genre needs an overhaul, badly. Sure, things have improved/evolved. But the fact that a game adds a leg sweep or directional jumping or something like along the years doesn't exactly make me want to play fighting games again. The only fighting games I've purchased within the past few years were Soulcalibur II, and it was comparable to the original Soul Calibur, one of my favorite fighting games, and Virtua Fighter 4 (loved VF2). But it didn't add anything really new to the mix, making it feel somewhat stale (that goes for both).

For me to have any interest in fighting games at all from now and into the future, something must change. Something big. Even if it creates it's own subgenre within the fighting realm (SSBM is clearly a fighter, just not a traditional one ).

I've completely lost interest in practically all 2D fighters. Granted, I haven't played all the Guilty Gears, KOFs, Vs. games, Street Fighters, etc., I've played enough to know that I don't enjoy them very much anymore (used to be a big Mortal Kombat 1-3, and Street Fighter 2 fan).

 

[haunts]

I think the current 3d games are fine, and the newer 2d games are OK too (3s and GGXX).

Thing is, most ppl do not have the patince to get G at fighting games so why does it matter? I think there is plenty to do already in VF4 and Tekken 5 to keep everyone busy for awhile.

 

[DonasaurusRex]

Man...I never thought id see the day when someone said akira was a not the most insane defensive char ever in a video game. Never played any VF games on hard I see, he has a counter for every single fucking move you can do.

 

[FeedMeAStrayCat]

Action, according to Nintendo of Japan.

If the company isn't calling it a fighting game ("格闘"), then why should we.
It doesn't have to be like that; I think it's more that people want to have rigid definitions with visible borders.

Nintendo of America's website lists SSBM as "Fighting", so.. umm.. ~shrugs~ Dunno what to think..

 

[haunts]

Id say SSBM is a fighting game. It's a little quirky, but it's def a fighting game. They have combos! :lol

 

[jett]

UGH, why was this guy let back in?

 

[FeedMeAStrayCat]

Even Nintendo can't decide what genre it is! :lol Those goofy bastards..

 

[jarrod]

Action, according to Nintendo of Japan.

If the company isn't calling it a fighting game ("格闘"), then why should we.

Look what I found...

Super Smash Bros. Melee
Category: Fighting, System: NINTENDO GAMECUBE, ESRB: T, Release Date Dec 03, 2001

Super Smash Bros.
Category: Fighting, System: Nintendo 64, ESRB: E, Release Date Apr 26, 1999

...I guess if you live in America, you should definitely call Smash Bros a fighter then?

It doesn't have to be like that; I think it's more that people want to have rigid definitions with visible borders.

Which would be where subgenres come in. Like Shining Force or Fire Emblem being simulation RPGs. Mario Kart or WipEout being combat racers. C'mon, we've already had this discussion this week...

 

[sprsk]

leguna

do this combo one handed and record it please.
http://reno.versuscity.net/temp/akira.avi

 

[jett]

Oh shit, this thread got derrailed. You know people, not EVERY THREAD has something to do with Nintendo. This one isn't about SSBM being a fighter or not, it's about ridiculing Leguna.

Spoiler

BTW, it's not.

 

[Artanisix]

I HATE it when people who don't understand how deep SSBM is argue about how it isn't a fighting game and is all about luck. First off, let's get things straight. SSBM is a fighting game. SSBM is not an arcade-true fighting game, with lifebars and whatnot.

Now, I heard someone arguing about the stages. You obviously don't understand the tournament scene, so why are you bothering? ALL MOVING STAGES ARE BANNED FROM TOURNAMENT PLAY. In fact, the only stages allowed for big tournaments such as MOAST and TG6 are Dream Land 64, Final Destination, and Pokemon Stadium. Dream Land 64 is a rather large stage with slight gusts of wind. It has three platforms, ensuring that everyone has a closer-to-equal chance of advantages. Final Destination is a flat level with no obstructions. Pokemon Stadium starts off as 2 platforms, but throughout the battle changes into different stages, forcing the players to come up with new strategies and allow different characters different advantages. Thus, whoever says the stages work against the player hasn't had much light shed on the game.

Now, MvC2. MvC2 is broken - Using anyone not in top tier or god tier is suicide. The game is based around infinites and traps. Cable, Storm, Magneto, and Sentinel are stupidly overpowered. Characters like Strider, Megaman, and Cammy are only good when paired with a God Tier character, which enables them to do comboes. The rest of the, say, 30 fighters are practically obselete in the tournament scene.

Let's get something straight. SSBM is not your traditional arcade fighting game. But why is it a fighting game? Well, let's see. We have two players with selected characters, with each character having their own seperate and unique moveset and play style, and mindgames. Mindgames. You know, like how people bait in fighting games? SSBM takes this to a new level. Dashdancing, Wavedashing, SHFFLED' arials and fakes are baiting taken to the next level.

There are comboes in the game, and no, not those tap aaa really fast ones. Take Marth for example. He's a top tier character with an exceptional ability to combo middle-weighted people to the edge and followup with whatever he chooses, whether it be a spike or a tipped f-smash. His combo is tipped SHFFLED f-air, two unsweeted f-airs in one short hop, two unsweeted f-airs in one short hop... Etc, until the opponent is at too high a percentage to combo or at the edge of the map. There is also chain throwing in the game, which is similar to Slayer's repeated bite in GGXX#. However, in SSBM, you can escape it via direction influence - the direction you hold while in the air influences which direction you fall.

Now we can talk about other aspects of a fighting game. SSBM is not a button-mashing, repeated forward tilting game, stay where you are until the opponent comes and hit them kinda game like some of you think. Every character has a sweetspot, or a spot they do more damage or knockback. Everyone can grab and throw (the only way to get past someones limited shield is to grab them or pressure them into retreating or countering). Everyone is unique - yes, even the clone characters play drastically different. There is priority in this game. Fox's shine - the reflector - has a starting lag of one frame. It out-prioritizes almost all moves due to how fast it is, and if it misses he can jump out instantly.

Someone was talking about items. All items are banned from tournament play due to randomness and how items give unfair advantages to players.

I agree that SSBM is not your traditional, arcade fighting game.
But it is a fighting game, and it has a huge tournament scene. Respect that.

Oh, and here's a video of two very well-known and excellent Japanese players playing one another - Masashi and his older brother Aniki.

((Please Right-Click and Save As))
S25 - Aniki Link vs. Masashi Ganon

 

[MrAngryFace]

Junior Member defending a lame Nintendo game! Typical!

 

[Artanisix]

MAF, I don't know you and I understand you're much more respected then I am, but don't you think you're a bit conceited? I mean, why don't you even hear me out, or howabout comment on what I have to say? No offense intended.

 

[sprsk]

MAF, I don't know you and I understand you're much more respected then I am, but don't you think you're a bit conceited? I mean, why don't you even hear me out, or howabout comment on what I have to say? No offense intended.

maf isnt just respected, he has his own t shirt dude.

 

[demi]

That movie was the most boring display I have ever seen. I almost fell asleep.

Someone please post that video of the tournament with that one guy defending that super in Street Fighter 3, and everyone starts jacking off and clapping over it!

 

[MrAngryFace]

Ill make you a deal.

The minute you stop talking dumb like Leguna ill start considering what you have to say.

 

[ArcadeStickMonk]

So you're saying that there's a true fighter in SSBM, but you gotta turn off the entire item system and stick to playing one or two levels. Also you have to remove two of the intended four players.

If MVC2 is broken because only a few characters make sense for serious play, then it sounds like SSBM isn't doing too well either.

 

[Kabuki Waq]

SSB:M is a really fun game but is completely broken when it comes to one on one cause of the Edge Camping. Also Items increase the luck factor.

 

[ArcadeStickMonk]

Someone please post that video of the tournament with that one guy defending that super in Street Fighter 3, and everyone starts jacking off and clapping over it!

Ha! Rastex tried to do that on Live last night. I'll give him props for having the reaction time to actually parry the first four hits, but after that he got hurt bad.

 

[The Faceless Master]

So you're saying that there's a true fighter in SSBM, but you gotta turn off the entire item system and stick to playing one or two levels. Also you have to remove two of the intended four players.

If MVC2 is broken because only a few characters make sense for serious play, then it sounds like SSBM isn't doing too well either.

damn, ArcadeStickMonk beat me to the reply