First look at ScarJo as the Major in Ghost in the Shell

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Zoe said:
I personally think people suggesting Japanese from Japan actors is part of the problem. If it's an American production, shouldn't it be natural to look to American actors first?

I refuse to believe there are no Japanese-American actors out there.
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Or just Asian-American. Nobody objected when a guy like Forest Whitaker plays Idi Amin just because he's not Ugandan.
 
Henkka said:
At some point it's just a numbers game, though. Through some googling, I found that there are 1,3m Japanese-Americans, or around 0,4% of the population. Half of them are women. Even a smaller percentage of them are the right age. Of those women, a tiny, tiny minority are actresses. And even a tinier minority of those actresses will ever be part of a Hollywood production. Searching for 'actress' on Wikipedia's list of notable Japanese-Americans brings up a whopping 30 results.

Contrast that with African Americans, who are around 15% of the population. That's such a big number, there are several global mega-stars like Will Smith, Samuel Jackson, Jamie Foxx and Morgan Freeman. Mostly male, though.
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The reason why the list of Japanese actresses is so lacking is because they look at a Japanese role and say "ScarJo" or "Mickey Rooney"

And as has been noted, you do not need to get the exact part for the role. It's not ideal, but it's more ideal than perpetuating the idea that there are no Asian-American actors who can carry a film by casting a white lady.
 
NoblesseOblige said:
I thought the ghosts were patterns and not actual brains, and the body, or 'hardcase' is the shell. In any case the Major's shell was manufactured in Japan and made for somebody who is part of a Japanese force, so presumably the body is meant to reflect an individual of Japanese ancestry. I do not recall completely if that is ever stated in the series, just my most reasonable assumption.
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Well, nobody makes a mention about "the foreigner" when she appears. Since Gits Japan is even more closed than modern Japan, a foreigner would stand out. Further more her adult body looks very much like an adult version of her first child body in SAC 2nd gig. They wouldn't make a child body randomly into a foreigner.
 
Zoe said:
I personally think people suggesting Japanese from Japan actors is part of the problem. If it's an American production, shouldn't it be natural to look to American actors first?

I refuse to believe there are no Japanese-American actors out there.
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I do refuse to believe there is a Japanese American that has the same box office pull as Scarlett
 
Controversy aside, this thread really makes me want to watch the original Ghost in the Shell again. I don't think I've seen it in 20 years or so (or whenever the original US release was).

I remember all the hype in the early internet message board 'Japanimation' days, with some people calling it 'The Akira Killer' and all this other bullshit.
I enjoyed it, loved the music, but yeah, the only thing about it that was comparable to Akira for me was the impressive animation... and even then I think I'm still more impressed by what was accomplished by Akira almost 10 years earlier.

I got to see GitS: Innocence in the theater and really liked it. I think I actually liked it more than the first one.
 
A Link to the Past said:
The reason why the list of Japanese actresses is so lacking is because they look at a Japanese role and say "ScarJo" or "Mickey Rooney"
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Partly that, partly also the hard numbers of US demographics. I thought it was a little disingenuous how you earlier said that Chris Pratt doesn't become A-list if the isn't white. If that were the case, Will Smith's career trajectory doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If Asians were 15% of the population, I guarantee this movie would have an Asian lead.
 
Chariot said:
Well, nobody makes a mention about "the foreigner" when she appears. Since Gits Japan is even more closed than modern Japan, a foreigner would stand out. Further more her adult body looks very much like an adult version of her first child body in SAC 2nd gig. They wouldn't make a child body randomly into a foreigner.
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Wait, the Major had a child body? I thought it was never revealed who the Major was originally, even leaving the original sex/gender a mystery. Or... did the Major's ghost just occupy another shell that was modeled after a child.

Man, I really need to rewatch the entire franchise again. It's been waaaay too long and I think I've missed bits and pieces.
 
Henkka said:
Partly that, partly also the hard numbers of US demographics. I thought it was a little disingenuous how you earlier said that Chris Pratt doesn't become A-list if the isn't white. If that were the case, Will Smith's career trajectory doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If Asians were 15% of the population, I guarantee this movie would have an Asian lead.
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Did you actually use the "look at this famous non-white person" card? Seriously? lol! Also, consider the comparison: Chris Pratt was a breakout supporting star on a fairly successful sitcom, Will Smith was the star of what is arguably the biggest sitcom made for black people. No one claimed that no non-white people could get roles, what they said was that being non-white is a HUGE inconvenience.
 
Think about it, it's a great opportunity as a filmmaker though. Give the Major a bunch of different "shells" to wear throughout the film; have Scarlett primarily play the role for star power, but have the character switch into other bodies played by different actors in the film: a Japanese body, an African body, a male body, a child's body, an old person's body. Film a scene with Scarlett acting out the part of the Major, then show the scene to the actor playing the "shell"; have them watch her take on the scene, and then film them incorporating her performance into their own: her delivery, her stance and movement, her mannerisms, her emotions, her facial quirks. Have Scarlett record all of the Major's dialogue for the film, then have the actor playing the "shell" listen to her performance to match her delivery and record their own lines, then use audio dubbing wizardry to blend and fuse the two tracks together, creating a voice that's Scarlett and yet not. The goal would be to use all of these actor's individual performances to create one complete, composite performance and have it come across as totally natural and believably one character.
 
Spike Spiegel said:
Think about it, it's a great opportunity as a filmmaker though. Give the Major a bunch of different "shells" to wear throughout the film; have Scarlett primarily play the role for star power, but have the character switch into other bodies played by different actors in the film: a Japanese body, an African body, a male body, a child's body, an old person's body. Film a scene with Scarlett acting out the part of the Major, then show the scene to the actor playing the "shell"; have them watch her take on the scene, and then film them incorporating her performance into their own: her delivery, her stance and movement, her mannerisms, her emotions, her facial quirks. Have Scarlett record all of the Major's dialogue for the film, then have the actor playing the "shell" listen to her performance to match her delivery and record their own lines, then use audio dubbing wizardry to blend and fuse the two tracks together, creating a voice that's Scarlett and yet not. The goal would be to use all of these actor's individual performances to create one complete, composite performance and have it come across as totally natural and believably one character.
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Or she'll be white, and every body she switches into will be white, and people here will keep making excuses about how this japanese women couldn't be played by anyone but a white actor because reasons
 
NoblesseOblige said:
Wait, the Major had a child body? I thought it was never revealed who the Major was originally, even leaving the original sex/gender a mystery. Or... did the Major's ghost just occupy another shell that was modeled after a child.

Man, I really need to rewatch the entire franchise again. It's been waaaay too long and I think I've missed bits and pieces.
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Relevant scene from SAC 2nd gig. Takes 10 minutes.
 
Spike Spiegel said:
Think about it, it's a great opportunity as a filmmaker though. Give the Major a bunch of different "shells" to wear throughout the film; have Scarlett primarily play the role for star power, but have the character switch into other bodies played by different actors in the film: a Japanese body, an African body, a male body, a child's body, an old person's body. Film a scene with Scarlett acting out the part of the Major, then show the scene to the actor playing the "shell"; have them watch her take on the scene, and then film them incorporating her performance into their own: her delivery, her stance and movement, her mannerisms, her emotions, her facial quirks. Have Scarlett record all of the Major's dialogue for the film, then have the actor playing the "shell" listen to her performance to match her delivery and record their own lines, then use audio dubbing wizardry to blend and fuse the two tracks together, creating a voice that's Scarlett and yet not. The goal would be to use all of these actor's individual performances to create one complete, composite performance and have it come across as totally natural and believably one character.
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This movie pulling a Metal Gear Solid 2 and Scarlett disappearing after the opening scene would be pretty amazing. I mean, it won't happen but it sure would be amazing.
 
If anything, I hope this will make some cinemas show the original film again. I would love to see it on the silver screen.

Same thing with Akira. The Bluray has the best sound quality I have ever heard and experiencing that in a big space with proper audio setup would be amazing.

TheJollyCorner said:
Controversy aside, this thread really makes me want to watch the original Ghost in the Shell again. I don't think I've seen it in 20 years or so (or whenever the original US release was)..
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If you do get it, get the 20th anniversary edition which is the original film in decent quality. The "Redux" or whatever bullshit it was called had ghastly CGI replacements and a shitty conversion.
 
A Link to the Past said:
Did you actually use the "look at this famous non-white person" card? Seriously? lol! Also, consider the comparison: Chris Pratt was a breakout supporting star on a fairly successful sitcom, Will Smith was the star of what is arguably the biggest sitcom made for black people. No one claimed that no non-white people could get roles, what they said was that being non-white is a HUGE inconvenience.
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I wasn't aware that's a "card", at least in this discussion. I suppose it's something people bring up when debating the overall existence of structural racism, but I wasn't saying it in that sense. I was specifically talking about Will Smith and Chris Pratt becoming stars through sitcoms. I'm aware the comparison isn't 1:1, but if you don't want people to bring up obvious counter-examples, don't make such absolute statements.

Contrasting Hollywood's casting practices with structural racism outside Hollywood could be interesting, though. On average, I'd say there's a lot more racism in the US toward black people than Asians. But Hollywood would much, much rather cast Samuel L. Jackson than an Asian male to play the same part. So it's reversed. But don't think I'm making some long form argument for why it's okay to cast ScarJo... I'm mostly just thinking out loud about the general issue of minorities in Hollywood, why and why they don't get cast. When it comes to ScarJo, I mostly agree with this person.
 
But Will Smith is the sole star of Fresh Prince, in effect. No one actor was even remotely as significant outside of it as he was. Fuck, he didn't even famous from the role, he had gotten the role because he was famous already (let's not forget that the "Fresh Prince" predates the TV show). Chris Pratt was a breakout star who got the opportunity to do a role that he had never done before. Will Smith meanwhile lent himself well to action, to comedy, and to drama. It's not like they took a huge gamble with Will, Will got this role in Fresh Prince (and later Independence Day) because he was A-list.
 
NoblesseOblige said:
Wait, the Major had a child body? I thought it was never revealed who the Major was originally, even leaving the original sex/gender a mystery. Or... did the Major's ghost just occupy another shell that was modeled after a child.

Man, I really need to rewatch the entire franchise again. It's been waaaay too long and I think I've missed bits and pieces.
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It highly depends on which version of GITS you're watching because there are different versions of the Major. They all have different origins and issues based on which production The one you're thinking of is the movie timelines while what Chariot refers to is Stand Alone Complex. Her past, characterization, and general issues are much different than her movie incarnations.

The bodies she uses in the manga are very common models so she doesn't stand out from anyone else but they're heavily customized underneath. Whether or not this is the case in says SACS is not clearly stated but considering that the events of the show and her general actions, I don't think her model is exactly uncommon either.
 
TheSeks said:
Yes! What a strange risky IP with a diverse fanbase of fans that even had a small (in Japan, granted) television series and a localized AND put into theater major motion picture animation. WHAT A SMALL IP!



Okay, and? Does this mean they can't cast an Asian Batou? A black Togusa? A latino Aramaki?

Nothing is preventing them from going with ScarJo. Just like nothing is stopping them from filling in side characters with other races to give those minority stars a chance to get recognizable and you know, maybe lead another film later?
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Edward James Olmos?
 
Chariot said:
And there never will be if you and the high-ups keep thinking like this.
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On one hand, I agree with you. On the other, it's a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation. How do you develop an Asian-American star if you never give them chances? But also - how do you get a film financed if you do not have a bankable star out front? I understand both angles. Neither have easy answers.

TheSeks said:
Yes! What a strange risky IP with a diverse fanbase of fans that even had a small (in Japan, granted) television series and a localized AND put into theater major motion picture animation. WHAT A SMALL IP!
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Sorry, but if you asked anyone on the street in America what Ghost in the Shell was, you would only have a few people out of, say, 50, who could explain the plot. It isn't Star Wars. It's not Jurassic Park. It isn't even Deadpool. It can't be sold just on the basis of it's name alone. I would compare it to something like Aeon Flux in terms of recognisability.
 
valeo said:
On one hand, I agree with you. On the other, it's a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation. How do you develop an Asian-American star if you never give them chances? But also - how do you get a film financed if you do not have a bankable star out front? I understand both angles. Neither have easy answers.
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I think occasionally you have movies where the franchise itself will already be the biggest pull, like Star Wars. And fortunately they used that chance to go for a more diverse cast.
 
A Link to the Past said:
You're simply not getting this - the problem is that for all of the excuses you can conjur up to make this more okay, the reason ScarJo is Motoko is not because the narrative and character design allows for it, it's because they want to cast white women in the roles of Asian women (and Asian men, apparently). If GitS had Motoko say "I'm absolutely, 100% not white", ScarJo would still be the top pick to play her by the studios.
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I see your point about the outrage is a result of the choice the studio made picking ScarJo and people have every right to be upset and I have the same right to hate this whole debate.

I'm still a huge fan of the series and my opinion is always gonna be I hate that the series is getting dragged through the mud by the production and outrage around it.

Even if motokos artifical body had a 100% Japanese seal of approval I would hate this whole thing

I know it's may be irrational but I'm just trying to communicate why I don't enjoy that a series I love is gonna be a battleground in future threads
 
I'm soooo on the fence about this topic. I just don't know.

On one hand, I've been a Shirow fan since Black Magic. To me, GITS has always been about advances in man/machine interface and how one stays true to who they are. About what makes ones soul/shell/identity unique in a world where a body is as easily interchangeable as an article of clothing. This is even touched upon when they later bring up "ghost dubbing". I think in the original manga (before then anime retcon) Kusanagi wasn't even sure if she was originally a female (also hinted by her bisexuality). So when it come to the shell/body she wears, its race and make is moot since shes ultimately not bound by it. They could have casted a Brazilian or Ethiopian, but Motoko would still be Motoko. If I remember, at the end of the manga, shes in the body of a Middle Eastern male (or at least had similar features)... Though this is changed to a young girl in the anime.

On the other hand, it's sad the producers defaulted to a Caucasian woman for the role, as if there were no Asian actresses to choose from. It gets tiresome, after films like The Last Airbender and Dragonball Evolution. Even The Grudge, which took place in Japan, stared a white actress for the lead.

But when I discussed this with a fellow level headed otaku, he said "Scar Jo has the star power. They probably felt she would draw a crowd more than say, Chiaki Kuriyama (Gogo from Kill Bill)" I had to agree. I don't think the film would dare tread into the "identity" theme of the manga, but I do hope is that they'll at least try to make it a good cyber-detective thriller. I'll be content with that.
 
Valdfellgar said:
Could be two things: One there just isn't much yet to show, or at least, to a finished state that they believe it'll do any good.

Or there's already, behinds the scenes, little confidence in this film already.
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That the only thing they said about it was a semi-denial of the yellow face accusations says a lot to me. They're letting April Reign set the conversation and they're doing nothing about it.
 
Epcott said:
On one hand, I've been a Shirow fan since Black Magic. To me, GITS has always been about advances in man/machine interface and how one stays true to who they are. About what makes ones soul/shell/identity unique in a world where a body is as easily interchangeable as an article of clothing. This is even touched upon when they later bring up "ghost dubbing".
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It's so hard for me to reconcile the Shirow of the past with Present Day Shirow, who basically just draws porn calendars now.
 
Kinyou said:
This movie pulling a Metal Gear Solid 2 and Scarlett disappearing after the opening scene would be pretty amazing. I mean, it won't happen but it sure would be amazing.
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That would be great, but would be a poor business decision. The trailers/footage would not attract those that want a more authentic representation (as is happening now) and those that did go to see it would be angry that they paid to see ScarJo and ended up with a bait-and-switch.
 
I don't even think I would know this movie was being made if not for ScaJo. How much support would this movie receive it was by a bunch of no-names? Curious is all.
 
Epcott said:
But when I discussed this with a fellow level headed otaku, he said "Scar Jo has the star power. They probably felt she would draw a crowd more than say, Chiaki Kuriyama (Gogo from Kill Bill)" I had to agree. I don't think the film would dare tread into the "identity" theme of the manga, but I do hope is that they'll at least try to make it a good cyber-detective thriller. I'll be content with that.
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as another fan, I'm not even that bothered by the casting issue. I'd love to see an asian get the lead for the sake of representation but in terms of staying close to the original it doesn't matter to me because there is no way it will anyway. My issue with this thing is that it even is a thing. There is no way this movie will make the source material justice. And again I'm not talking about superficial details but rather the spirit of gits.
I can maybe think of one or two directors who if they had full creative control I could see them pulling this off. that's not going to happen and this movie will be shit unless you are content with being served the usual hollywood blockbuster crap.

also, do movie stars really sell tickets? Would gits really make less money with a new face instead of scarjo? I just don't buy that kind of reasoning. People get interested in paying to see movies because of trailers, word of mouth and concepts, maybe directors but for the vast majority not actors.
 
NoblesseOblige said:
Wait, the Major had a child body? I thought it was never revealed who the Major was originally, even leaving the original sex/gender a mystery. Or... did the Major's ghost just occupy another shell that was modeled after a child.

Man, I really need to rewatch the entire franchise again. It's been waaaay too long and I think I've missed bits and pieces.
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The second season of the anime tv show goes into her background. As a kid, she was one of two survivors in a plane crash and her body was so destroyed she was placed into one of the first full body prosthesis (or maybe just the first full body transplant for a kid, not sure which)
 
Subpar Spatula said:
I don't even think I would know this movie was being made if not for ScaJo. How much support would this movie receive it was by a bunch of no-names? Curious is all.
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Well they gave it to a no name director. Like, I don't think there was any confidence this movie would ever be good and using scarjo is just a heap of whitewashing disappointment frosting on a doomed cake.
 
valeo said:
how do you get a film financed if you do not have a bankable star out front?
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You don't need a bankable star if you have a brand.

They have a brand. It's the only reason the movie's being made.

if they're not confident in either the brand, or the story, or the potential of the film to be a good film (even though the film they're ostensibly remaking is already recognized as a great one), then what the fuck are they even doing trying to make the goddamn movie, right?
 
Bobby Roberts said:
You don't need a bankable star if you have a brand.

They have a brand. It's the only reason the movie's being made.

if they're not confident in either the brand, or the story, or the potential of the film to be a good film (even though the film they're ostensibly remaking is already recognized as a great one), then what the fuck are they even doing trying to make the goddamn movie, right?
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Straight facts
 
Lexad said:
Well this is interesting

http://kotaku.com/ghost-in-the-shell-publisher-never-imagined-a-japanese-1771992584
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1. It's the publisher saying it very different from the people that made it throwing their support in.

2. As someone of Asian descent I personally didn't care that much about the casting choice. I recognize it's a bit fucked up on an intellectual level but didn't bother me.

Until I've read the thing about them exploring technology to make ScarJo more Asian. Even to me that seemed fucked up. Like I've seen the Landis video about how this was their way to honor the material in the a fucked up twisted way but that doesn't really excuse it.
Really if you wanted an Asian, cast one don't CG one. If you couldn't get this movie made without ScarJo's name power stand behind it.
 
Okay, two things:

1) While I can understand the backlash to cast ma gurl Scarjo for this role, I think it should be said that Motoko never looked Asian to begin with. She actually looks much closer to Scarjo, and so ironically, is in fact more fitting.

2) I was listening to the Young Truks as they were covering this, and Cenk made a good point. Big budget Hollywood movies have...well, big budgets. Ergo, they cost a lot of money to produce. If you hired some no name Asian actress, you'd get into a lot of trouble if the movie flops. However, if you hire someone with star power, then even if the movie bombs, it would be difficult to blame someone who hired an A-lister.
 
Oblivion said:
Okay, two things:

1) While I can understand the backlash to cast ma gurl Scarjo for this role, I think it should be said that Motoko never looked Asian to begin with. She actually looks much closer to Scarjo, and so ironically, is in fact more fitting.

2) I was listening to the Young Truks as they were covering this, and Cenk made a good point. Big budget Hollywood movies have...well, big budgets. Ergo, they cost a lot of money to produce. If you hired some no name Asian actress, you'd get into a lot of trouble if the movie flops. However, if you hire someone with star power, then even if the movie bombs, it would be difficult to blame someone who hired an A-lister.
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You really should read the thread. Both thing were brought up multiple times.
 
Oblivion said:
Okay, two things:

1) While I can understand the backlash to cast ma gurl Scarjo for this role, I think it should be said that Motoko never looked Asian to begin with. She actually looks much closer to Scarjo, and so ironically, is in fact more fitting.
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This could be a drinking game.
 
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