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Fitness |OT3| BroScience, Protein Dysentery, XXL Calf Implants, and Squat Rack Hogs

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SeanR1221 said:
My problems with Squats (and somewhat deadlifts) is I always FEEL like I have really shitty form.

---

So burst capillaries...how do they work? I've noticed since I've been increasing my weight, I've gotten little red dots in the areas I worked the previous day. It was pretty bad on my back after upping my lateral pull-down and bent-over row weight. Almost looked like I had a rash.

I don't know. Too much blood flow. I get it doing drag flags. Wish I knew how to reduce it.
 

Maxim726X

Member
SeanR1221 said:
My problems with Squats (and somewhat deadlifts) is I always FEEL like I have really shitty form.

---

So burst capillaries...how do they work? I've noticed since I've been increasing my weight, I've gotten little red dots in the areas I worked the previous day. It was pretty bad on my back after upping my lateral pull-down and bent-over row weight. Almost looked like I had a rash.

I feel ya... I try my best to have perfect form, but I always feel off.

Personally, it's because I'm about as malleable as concrete. I can't even touch my toes... So I would assume that has some effect on my ROM, especially for squats. I try to go down as far as I can, though.

I have burst capillaries ALL OVER my traps and shoulders after doing squats. Wish there was a better way to rest the bar... Maybe I should try resting the bar on my back? Also, if you take a vasodilator (such as NOXPlode or other NO products) it stands to reason that they would be more commonplace.
 
What does fitness-GAF think about caffeine-fueled pre-workout drinks like NOXplode? I just got some and like the motivation and energy it gives me. Are there benefits other than energy (caffeine)? Drawbacks?
 

Munin

Member
So I am going back home for 10 days next week (i.e. to another country) where I will not have access to a gym for that duration...anyone know how I could at least keep my shape and size, especially shoulders/back/biceps with no equipment at all? I'll do lots of pushups and maybe there is a way to do some pull ups but probably not...anything else I could do? Super paranoid about losing the little progress I already made.
 

Maxim726X

Member
Fong Ghoul said:
What does fitness-GAF think about caffeine-fueled pre-workout drinks like NOXplode? I just got some and like the motivation and energy it gives me. Are there benefits other than energy (caffeine)? Drawbacks?

I've used a few of them (NO Shotgun made me throw up every time I used it- so some of them won't sit well) and I love them.

Some have creatine, B12, 1,3 dimethylamine (which is odd, as it is a vasoconstrictor... Most have vasodilators), arginine complexes. Nothing unsafe, for as much as I have read.

For me, it's a must for pre-workouts.

Also loved White Flood and Shock Therapy... Both worked better for me than NOXPlode and are less expensive.
 

Maxim726X

Member
Munin said:
So I am going back home for 10 days next week (i.e. to another country) where I will not have access to a gym for that duration...anyone know how I could at least keep my shape and size, especially shoulders/back/biceps with no equipment at all? I'll do lots of pushups and maybe there is a way to do some pull ups but probably not...anything else I could do? Super paranoid about losing the little progress I already made.

Taking a week off isn't a terrible thing. Matter of fact, you may see that you'll look better after a week.

If you must, chin ups for biceps, pull ups for lats, push ups and dips. Maybe some squats or running if you can.
 

Maxim726X

Member
FallingEdge said:
The only preworkout drink I use is Xtend is which is BCAAs because I train fasted. I like the taste and it seems to work for me.

I take BCAAs post-work out... Does it give you more energy pre?
 
Maxim726X said:
I take BCAAs post-work out... Does it give you more energy pre?

Somewhat. It isn't a caffeine boost but I do feel like there is a bit of a kick there. Again, it might be because I train fasted. I know Xtend isn't seen as an energy boost so I never really looked at it that way. The few times where I want some energy before working out, I just usually drink a cup of black coffee.
 
Fong Ghoul said:
What does fitness-GAF think about caffeine-fueled pre-workout drinks like NOXplode? I just got some and like the motivation and energy it gives me. Are there benefits other than energy (caffeine)? Drawbacks?
Maxim726X said:
I've used a few of them (NO Shotgun made me throw up every time I used it- so some of them won't sit well) and I love them.

Some have creatine, B12, 1,3 dimethylamine (which is odd, as it is a vasoconstrictor... Most have vasodilators), arginine complexes. Nothing unsafe, for as much as I have read.

For me, it's a must for pre-workouts.

Also loved White Flood and Shock Therapy... Both worked better for me than NOXPlode and are less expensive.
Be careful with these. I used to take NO-Xplode and Superpump. It's tough to tell if it ever really helped during workouts, but I do know that I had to call off work a few times the next day because I was still wide awake at 4:00am.

I also read from a few places that NO products aren't good for your heart or blood pressure. Not sure about the validity of those claims, but I'm done with those now. Not going to mess with heart health.

All I do now for pre-workout energy - besides having a filling meal a few hours before, of course - is down one of those Gatorade Pre-Fuel packets. Safer than any NO product but I still feel like I'm giving myself some sort of a pick-me-up. Of course, within the last week or two, I can't find these on any store shelves...

I also take BCAAs, both pre and post-workout.
 

Parch

Member
Some of those arginine complexes have been linked to cardiac problems, so I'd be cautious with those NOX supplements. Of course the companies selling the product will say they're safe, but if you're throwing up taking NO Shotgun I'd take that as a sign of not being too safe. I've heard recent concerns about these vasodilator cocktails so I've stopped taking them. It never hurts to be prudent and discuss it with your doctor.

Nothing like a good caffeine boost though. I find it helps my workouts a lot.
 

MjFrancis

Member
I'll agree with Parch here. Caffeine has been proven and safe at moderate dosages, and costs significantly less than any NO booster. There was a recent study that backhanded the effectiveness of arginine in these NO boosters, but the subjects took them after their training instead of before or during. So it was nothing shocking or worth writing home about; a wasted opportunity to add evidence either for or against their effectiveness.

There are very few NO boosters that don't come with caffeine or a sort of kitchen sink ingredients list with proprietary blends that obfuscate their ingredient quantities. That alone should speak volumes to anyone taking them.
 
MjFrancis said:
I'll agree with Parch here. Caffeine has been proven and safe at moderate dosages, and costs significantly less than any NO booster. There was a recent study that backhanded the effectiveness of arginine in these NO boosters, but the subjects took them after their training instead of before or during. So it was nothing shocking or worth writing home about; a wasted opportunity to add evidence either for or against their effectiveness.

There are very few NO boosters that don't come with caffeine or a sort of kitchen sink ingredients list with proprietary blends that obfuscate their ingredient quantities. That alone should speak volumes to anyone taking them.
Hm - helpful comments here and above. Perhaps its just the caffeine boost I'm after, and $40 for a 50-scoop supply of NO-Xplode is a lot. Might just use up my supply (hopefully with my heart still intact), then switch to caffeine only and see if I notice a difference.
 

thomaser

Member
MjFrancis said:
I wouldn't say that squats are a must, though it is telling that zero consideration was given to any particular form of leg training while everything else was spelled out.

Squats are undoubtedly more difficult but also quite rewarding in comparison to say, the leg press, so consideration is definitely warranted. Now, squatting then leg pressing, that would be doubly awesome. I think the squat has an awesome multiplier for any leg exercise performed afterwards, so you might even be golden if you follow them up with the inner/outer thigh machine that soccer moms usually covet for magical spot reduction properties.

Could you explain this for me? Not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious.

Also, does anyone know if that Basic Strength Standards document can be found somewhere with kilos instead of pounds? I could convert it myself, but it will take a lot of time.
 

MjFrancis

Member
thomaser said:
Could you explain this for me? Not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious.
Someone looking to achieve maximum hypertrophy may be fatigued in the lower back or other areas when squatting before their quads have taken enough punishment/stimulation to their taste. The leg press would be able to continue working the quads and other musculature of the legs long after you wouldn't be able to squat with proper form. The strength carryover isn't targeting your weak point in this situation but the hypertrophy potential is usually the desired outcome with this exercise combination.
 

X-Frame

Member
Francis, do you do Intermittent Fasting now?

I saw you link a lot to the LeanGains blog, and there's a lifter on BB.com that is a monster and he apparently does it as well (which is where I was first introduced to it).

Here's his journal: PBatemen2 Journal
 
MjFrancis said:
No one really has to barbell squat (save for powerlifters I suppose, lol) but for everyone else, it's never a bad idea. I would say that someone who can't or won't barbell squat, for whatever reason, could still yield benefits from bodyweight squats. Worries of spinal compression are alleviated (no matter how (un)founded these may be), and they improve a level of strength, endurance and flexibility to perform something so mundane as shitting in a third-world toilet. Performed for repetitions they may serve for a fantastic cardiovascular session.

What are some bodyweight squats that you recommend? List the exercises that you know of.
 

Maxim726X

Member
Parch said:
Some of those arginine complexes have been linked to cardiac problems, so I'd be cautious with those NOX supplements. Of course the companies selling the product will say they're safe, but if you're throwing up taking NO Shotgun I'd take that as a sign of not being too safe. I've heard recent concerns about these vasodilator cocktails so I've stopped taking them. It never hurts to be prudent and discuss it with your doctor.

Nothing like a good caffeine boost though. I find it helps my workouts a lot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arginine_alphaketoglutarate

I'm sorry, but where have you read this?

Most NO supplements (like the one I'm taking now), have AAKG (above) and beta-alanine, both of which are not harmful and to my knowledge, show no serious side effects. I'm taking Jack3d right now and the most it can do to you is make you feel a bit light-headed because of over-dosage of geranamine found within some of the more popular ones.

In fact, last time I got my physical I was told my BP was too low, and my pulse was in the high 50's... EKGs were fine, as well.

I don't mean to cal you out, specifically, but I hear NO supplements being bashed a lot with no real evidence to back up the claims. I'm certainly willing to change my view if there is any evidence to the contrary, though... Is there?
 

MjFrancis

Member
X-Frame said:
Francis, do you do Intermittent Fasting now?
Yeah, I've been sticking to 16 hour fasts on weekdays and a 12 hour fasts on weekends. I don't have the sometimes mind-blowing results Martin Berkhan has posted on his site, but it's allowed me to maintain a lean physique around 12% bodyfat while being able to indulge quite frequently.
 

Brolic Gaoler

formerly Alienshogun
Fong Ghoul said:
What does fitness-GAF think about caffeine-fueled pre-workout drinks like NOXplode? I just got some and like the motivation and energy it gives me. Are there benefits other than energy (caffeine)? Drawbacks?


I typically drink a rockstar on my way to the gym, seems to really help.
 

X-Frame

Member
MjFrancis said:
Yeah, I've been sticking to 16 hour fasts on weekdays and a 12 hour fasts on weekends. I don't have the sometimes mind-blowing results Martin Berkhan has posted on his site, but it's allowed me to maintain a lean physique around 12% bodyfat while being able to indulge quite frequently.

I'm contemplating. The only problem is that I work 2 hours away from home, so the 2 hour commute there and back, plus the workday of 8 hours means I would need to bring a crapload of food to work.
 
MjFrancis said:
Yeah, I've been sticking to 16 hour fasts on weekdays and a 12 hour fasts on weekends. I don't have the sometimes mind-blowing results Martin Berkhan has posted on his site, but it's allowed me to maintain a lean physique around 12% bodyfat while being able to indulge quite frequently.

16 hours
Like this? Wake at 7am, eat a big meal... eat again at 11pm, go to bed?
 
MjFrancis said:
Before you pick a program parrotbeak, you can always time/measure your hill runs. Most likely you will be able to carry over this sort of conditioning without any issues. It's unfortunate that your squats have suffered lately, but it's to be expected when you add conditioning into the mix.
I was thinking I probably should at least time them, although I'm still getting back into the swing of it and I was never good at knowing when to time what. Stop the watch when I start to walk? When I get to a breaking point? I'm usually just trying not to fall over and vomit at the end. What I have been doing was just marking blocks and keeping track of how many times I did it, but it would be good to see the speed also.
 
X-Frame said:
I'm contemplating. The only problem is that I work 2 hours away from home, so the 2 hour commute there and back, plus the workday of 8 hours means I would need to bring a crapload of food to work.
I'm not fasting, but I do eat all but one meal at work. I generally bring 8 oz's of chicken, 1 cup of green beans, some scrambled/boiled eggs with 1 cup of beans, 1/4 cup of almonds and 2 cans of tuna to work everyday.
 

Domino Theory

Crystal Dynamics
X-Frame said:
Francis, do you do Intermittent Fasting now?

I saw you link a lot to the LeanGains blog, and there's a lifter on BB.com that is a monster and he apparently does it as well (which is where I was first introduced to it).

Here's his journal: PBatemen2 Journal

I do. I follow Martin's Leangains religiously. I started it mid-January of this year and have lost 40 pounds so far while improving on my lifts across the board.
 

Parch

Member
Maxim726X said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arginine_alphaketoglutarate

I'm sorry, but where have you read this?

Most NO supplements (like the one I'm taking now), have AAKG (above) and beta-alanine, both of which are not harmful and to my knowledge, show no serious side effects. I'm taking Jack3d right now and the most it can do to you is make you feel a bit light-headed because of over-dosage of geranamine found within some of the more popular ones.

In fact, last time I got my physical I was told my BP was too low, and my pulse was in the high 50's... EKGs were fine, as well.

I don't mean to cal you out, specifically, but I hear NO supplements being bashed a lot with no real evidence to back up the claims. I'm certainly willing to change my view if there is any evidence to the contrary, though... Is there?
Sorry, no link. I heard this on sports radio last week. It was a program about sports supplements from a doctor specializing in sports medicine and muscle biopsies. She mentioned that she has been doing medical research for several years specifically on arginine and seemed quite knowledgable about all supplementation. She basically had very little positive to say about NOX supplements and had specific concerns in some different arginine complexes causing cardiac complications. There was another potentially harmful ingredient mentioned that I can't recall but she said it's currently in most vasodilator products. She also mentioned the questionable effectiveness of these products. They have no effect on muscle tissue but do help oxiginate blood, but that would only be effective for high endurance athletes like marathoners and cyclists. She did mention that it shouldn't be too long before these products are "cleaned up" and the potentially harmful ingredients removed. No specific products were mentioned.

There must be good info out there with a search, but so much of it is the so-called "clinical research" carried out by the companies selling the product. I would be very wary. Even the info from "independent" studies is pick-and-chose to only include info that will help sell the supplement.

Other than that I really don't know much about these products. I don't want to scare anybody and if you've been using a product with some level of success then I'm sure there's nothing to worry about. But I've heard enough to get off the stuff, and I've never had any noticeable success with it anyway so I can live without.
 

MjFrancis

Member
Jason's Ultimatum said:
What are some bodyweight squats that you recommend? List the exercises that you know of.
For cardio and muscular endurance I recommend simple squats that mirror the form I learned from the barbell squat. I keep my arms crossed or straight in front of me. My heels are planted firmly on the ground, much unlike other suggestions for bodyweight squats that I have read.

Some people like Hindu Squats for reps, I have nothing against them I just don't do them.

For strength you can't beat the one-leg squat aka the pistol squat. For form I used the methods described by both Paul Wade and especially Pavel Tsatsouline. Pavel's book The Naked Warrior goes over it in detail. They are difficult, I'm still only on sets of 8 but it's enough that people at my gym compliment me out of nowhere and ask how I pull it off. I always tell them it was barbell squatting 1.5x my weight for reps, since that was the only thing that changed in the six month's time between my failed attempt and trying them again.

Paul's book Convict Conditioning also goes over a few precursor exercises to the pistol like Close Squats (feet together), Uneven Squats (extended leg on a ball for support), 1/2 one-leg squats (just half reps), and Assisted Pistol Squats (using a light touch to propel you off the floor for the first few inches). I'm still occasionally working on a few of the precursors since I didn't follow his method and just skipped to pistols by happenstance.

ipukespiders said:
16 hours
Like this? Wake at 7am, eat a big meal... eat again at 11pm, go to bed?
I include sleep in the fasting portion of my day. I break the fast around 10:00am and eat about 1/6-1/4 of my day's calories. I have a small snack before my afternoon workout. After that I have a small snack to tide me over until I get home and eat 1/2 or more of my day's calories in a single meal. I eat another small snack and a meal by 6:00pm and I will only drink water or tea until 10:00am the following day. When I'm not eating I don't think about eating, I stay busy. When I am eating, I make sure it's big and hearty.

On weekends my wife makes me breakfast, and I cannot refuse a 4-egg omelet with all the fixings. Ever.

@Domino Theory - awesome man, I'm glad that LeanGains has helped you out so much. I like it because it's posited as another tool in the fitness war chest rather than the Holy Grail. I do IF because of behavioral purposes principally. I can gain weight, lose fat, or just maintain with relative ease.

@X-Frame - If you can make it work, it might be your best friends. If not, that's fine, too. That's a hell of a commute, and you would likely have to bring a cooler to work. You might not have to bring as much as you think if you are able to eat hearty once you get home. When do you train?

parrotbeak said:
I was thinking I probably should at least time them, although I'm still getting back into the swing of it and I was never good at knowing when to time what. Stop the watch when I start to walk? When I get to a breaking point? I'm usually just trying not to fall over and vomit at the end. What I have been doing was just marking blocks and keeping track of how many times I did it, but it would be good to see the speed also.
I hear you there - there's a small mountain trail I hike (1 mile up) and I'm just happy to make it to the top and back without being sick.
 

MjFrancis

Member
rando14 said:
Just wanted to say, pullups are awesome. :)
Love my pull-ups!

Before I did anything in my workout today, I put in an endurance set to see what 2 weeks of high-frequency numbers of pull-ups would yield for me. The results? 15 pullups. No change.

Actually, the good news as I see it, is that I was able to double my pullup volume in two week's time with no negative consequences on my endurance sets. That's awesome right there. Last week I fell back 2, likely because I wasn't used to doing so many. This week, I'm already back to par. I am very optimistic about my progress for the next few weeks of busting out pull-ups like my life depended upon it.
 

rando14

Member
MjFrancis said:
Love my pull-ups!

Before I did anything in my workout today, I put in an endurance set to see what 2 weeks of high-frequency numbers of pull-ups would yield for me. The results? 15 pullups. No change.

Actually, the good news as I see it, is that I was able to double my pullup volume in two week's time with no negative consequences on my endurance sets. That's awesome right there. Last week I fell back 2, likely because I wasn't used to doing so many. This week, I'm already back to par. I am very optimistic about my progress for the next few weeks of busting out pull-ups like my life depended upon it.

Nice!

Today I was doing pullups with 25 lbs between my legs. Felt awesome. :cool:

So you've been doing a certain high number of pullups a week, just whenever you get the chance? And that's helped your sets during your workouts?
 
I decided to try some pullups today without any form of assistance. A month ago, there was no way for me to do a single pullup, even with assistance. Today, I discovered I can do ten pullups without any form of assistance. It felt fucking good.
 

Ripclawe

Banned
Attackthebase said:
I decided to try some pullups today without any form of assistance. A month ago, there was no way for me to do a single pullup, even with assistance. Today, I discovered I can do ten pullups without any form of assistance. It felt fucking good.
how did that happen? Just kept doing pullups? I can't do a pullup to save my life.
 

Draft

Member
Jason's Ultimatum said:
What are some bodyweight squats that you recommend? List the exercises that you know of.
If you won't barbell squat, then you should box jump (at first) and then do deep pistol squats (once you are in beast mode.)
 
I can already do pistol squats. I just haven't done them in awhile. I can also use my body weight to do different forms of lunges. As long as I can keep em in shape and maybe get them a little more defined, then I'll be happy. They're already a little defined, but I'd rather do that then risk any long term injuries.
 
Another good leg exercise is one legged stiff dead lifts. Or something like that. Get on that balance thing and grab a 25 lb dumbell. INSTANT GRATIFICATION.
 

tapedeck

Do I win a prize for talking about my penis on the Internet???
I have a fairly detailed question for anyone gracious enough to answer. I started developing pain on the interior of my left elbow (basically the inside of the elbow, not the elbow itself, roughly near wear a nurse would draw blood from you arm). The pain only occurs during bicep curls, but is fairly significant, to the point where it feels like I might tear something. Lately Ive only been able to lift about 50% of my max for curls without feeling extreme discomfort.

Again its ONLY when Im lifting...has anyone else experienced this? I dont think it is Tennis Elbow because the pain feels more localized to a specific muscle and not necessarily a tendon. Is there anything I can take that expedites the healing of an injured muscle? Im pretty desperate cause I was making really great strides and now this pain is really holding me up. :/
 

Draft

Member
Honestly, if you're truly cock diesel and refuse to use barbells, you probably need to do some ballet style shit.

Oh, I know another good one. Glute ham raises. They're a killer no weight leg workout, especially if you do them right and keep your torso and legs straight.
 
I have to say, running hills in the last week has made my legs feel way more balanced and explosive than doing squats 5x5 3 times a week for the last 7 months. But we'll see how they are after a few weeks.
 

Maxim726X

Member
Parch said:
Sorry, no link. I heard this on sports radio last week. It was a program about sports supplements from a doctor specializing in sports medicine and muscle biopsies. She mentioned that she has been doing medical research for several years specifically on arginine and seemed quite knowledgable about all supplementation. She basically had very little positive to say about NOX supplements and had specific concerns in some different arginine complexes causing cardiac complications. There was another potentially harmful ingredient mentioned that I can't recall but she said it's currently in most vasodilator products. She also mentioned the questionable effectiveness of these products. They have no effect on muscle tissue but do help oxiginate blood, but that would only be effective for high endurance athletes like marathoners and cyclists. She did mention that it shouldn't be too long before these products are "cleaned up" and the potentially harmful ingredients removed. No specific products were mentioned.

There must be good info out there with a search, but so much of it is the so-called "clinical research" carried out by the companies selling the product. I would be very wary. Even the info from "independent" studies is pick-and-chose to only include info that will help sell the supplement.

Other than that I really don't know much about these products. I don't want to scare anybody and if you've been using a product with some level of success then I'm sure there's nothing to worry about. But I've heard enough to get off the stuff, and I've never had any noticeable success with it anyway so I can live without.

Interesting. I would like to listen to it (or read up on it, at least). Know the name of the radio station/show she was on?
 
tapedeck said:
I have a fairly detailed question for anyone gracious enough to answer. I started developing pain on the interior of my left elbow (basically the inside of the elbow, not the elbow itself, roughly near wear a nurse would draw blood from you arm). The pain only occurs during bicep curls, but is fairly significant, to the point where it feels like I might tear something. Lately Ive only been able to lift about 50% of my max for curls without feeling extreme discomfort.

Again its ONLY when Im lifting...has anyone else experienced this? I dont think it is Tennis Elbow because the pain feels more localized to a specific muscle and not necessarily a tendon. Is there anything I can take that expedites the healing of an injured muscle? Im pretty desperate cause I was making really great strides and now this pain is really holding me up. :/
I'm unable to help, but I still have, after 3 weeks upper body rest, similar discomfort.
It was bothering me also from curls, so I dropped them.

Strangely enough, it really got sore doing some heavy benching, and it was in both arms.
Tendon, ligament, muscle, I don't know.
The rest has helped, and I've since started doing light weights, high reps, low volume - but it's still there.

Might not be the same pain you have.

One more thing, when I would wake up in the morning, both arms would also be a bit sore, as I world sleep with my arms in a bent position. That waking stiffness/pain has subsided.
 

rando14

Member
tapedeck said:
I have a fairly detailed question for anyone gracious enough to answer. I started developing pain on the interior of my left elbow (basically the inside of the elbow, not the elbow itself, roughly near wear a nurse would draw blood from you arm). The pain only occurs during bicep curls, but is fairly significant, to the point where it feels like I might tear something. Lately Ive only been able to lift about 50% of my max for curls without feeling extreme discomfort.

Again its ONLY when Im lifting...has anyone else experienced this? I dont think it is Tennis Elbow because the pain feels more localized to a specific muscle and not necessarily a tendon. Is there anything I can take that expedites the healing of an injured muscle? Im pretty desperate cause I was making really great strides and now this pain is really holding me up. :/

I think I know what feeling you're referring to. When I curl I feel some slight pulling right in the nook of my elbow, but I always thought that was just part of the lift.

Using this image, are you perhaps referring to pain near the top of your supinator?

http://www.projectswole.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/forearm-anatomy.jpg
 

Draft

Member
parrotbeak said:
I have to say, running hills in the last week has made my legs feel way more balanced and explosive than doing squats 5x5 3 times a week for the last 7 months. But we'll see how they are after a few weeks.
Have you considered that 7 months of dedicated squatting put your legs in the position to feel balanced and explosive while running hills?
 
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