http://www.politico.com/states/flor...-women-earn-less-pay-maybe-its-genetic-112914
Florida man strikes again.
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Florida State higher ed official on why women earn less than men: 'Maybe it's genetic
- Thread starter Tripon
- Start date
http://www.politico.com/states/flor...-women-earn-less-pay-maybe-its-genetic-112914
Florida man strikes again.
Crimson_Echidna
Banned
Obviously they're not born that way, women made a choice.
/s
Zeus Molecules
illegal immigrants are stealing our air
At this point I feel considering this involved someone elected in Florida..... I would of been more surprised if he said something backed by science and not ignorant as all fuck
Prophaniti
Banned
So he's saying men are genetically better negotiators? I don't understand why he didn't think that statement through.
Reverend Funk
Comfy Penetration
I really don't know anything about this so let me just throw out a baseless opinion with no alterior motive
lightskintwin
Banned
Amazing how it's easier to believe the skill of negotiating might be a genetic difference between the genders, but the sexual orientation of homosexuals is either a horrible learned behavior or mental illness.
ArsTechnica ran a report a couple months ago on negotiation for salaries across genders.
Whether it's social or genetic or personal circumstances or whatever (who knows), women were less prone to negotiating than men. Men often pushed for higher salaries whereas women were more likely take the offer as-is.
The representative botched it when he said it may have been genetic, but I generally support his message to improve negotiation skills.
Whether it's social or genetic or personal circumstances or whatever (who knows), women were less prone to negotiating than men. Men often pushed for higher salaries whereas women were more likely take the offer as-is.
The representative botched it when he said it may have been genetic, but I generally support his message to improve negotiation skills.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Not smart enough to know the difference between what?
TheCochese
Banned
I know exactly why that dude is so salty. When it rains, it pours.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Women who do try to negotiate for better salaries get shut down or punished for it. It often backfires in ways that it doesn't for men.
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/01/women-negotiating/512174/
http://www.newyorker.com/science/maria-konnikova/lean-out-the-dangers-for-women-who-negotiate
https://hbr.org/2016/04/women-who-dont-negotiate-their-salaries-might-have-a-good-reason
Instead of supporting shitty, counter productive messages, I suggest you support doing research and evidence-based thinking next time
Permanently A
Junior Member
Dude Abides
Banned
Poor title capitalization creates the impression this was at FSU.
lightskintwin
Banned
Kind of a weird one to get mad about. Dude recognized a structural inequality and implemented a program to combat it?
He tripped over himself in an aside full of equivocations. Messy but it's not apparently holding him back from addressing the problem?
I guess I'm not entirely sure who the "we in Naples" is, is that a thing he worked on or a thing that's happening in his town?
He tripped over himself in an aside full of equivocations. Messy but it's not apparently holding him back from addressing the problem?
I guess I'm not entirely sure who the "we in Naples" is, is that a thing he worked on or a thing that's happening in his town?
It's an easy thing to talk shit about Florida as some giant collective group but the fact is that a large portion of the population in this state have come from other states, New York being one of the largest donors.
It also doesn't account for the fact that North and South and the west coast could be considered completely different states in many ways.
Having said that, the fact that this tool was appointed by Scott means that him being a shit bird was inevitable.
cubicle47b
Member
That's a reasonable comment. Testosterone and cortisol play very import parts in negotiating. Socialization is part of it too, of course.
Get em
psychowave
Member
ah yes the money gene
The answer you are looking for is in your own comment.
IrishNinja
Member
we reelected Rick Scott, man...i blame Northern FL
heh
i'm so sorry
Testosterone is linked to risk taking (all negotiation entails risk) and aggressive behavior (negotiation is a form of aggression in terms of asserting one's worth a bit forcefully). I don't see what's so outrageous about the statement that men may be biologically disposed to be more inclined to negotiate.
There is likely (almost certainly) a social/environmental factor as well, but to act like it's implausible that there could be a biological basis for a difference in the willingness to negotiate is silly imo.
lightskintwin
Banned
Because it doesn't address the major societal factors of woman navigating within male dominated systems and spaces and how we tend to judge women differently for having those positive work qualities that we expect men to have as negative particularity when they're assertive/aggressive.
We as a society discourage women from developing those traits.
The problem with this argument is that "testosterone is linked to risk taking" and "testosterone is linked to aggressive behavior" don't mean "testosterone improves negotiation". Negotiation involves risk taking and aggression. It also involves knowing what risks not to take and when to pull back. Negotiation is a complex concept that requires many skills.
Just look at Donald Trump. He's an incredibly aggressive risk-taker. He's also a terrible negotiator, despite his statements to the contrary.
This.
Women are also pretty much forced to be more 'docile' or else they are labeled as a bitch or emotional and get no where.
And IIRC studies have shown that women are just as likely as men to label other women that way.
The actual study reported is a laboratory experiment with undergrads. They are great researchers and its an important piece of the puzzle but not the whole story. In a field setting, John List and coauthors did see women less likely to negotiate for higher wages when negotiation was ambiguous. There was a paper or two from a few years back arguing that while women were less likely to negotiate, those that did were more likely to get it approved. This could easily be driven by selection effects. However it seems recent work on this does not seem as clear cut.
My understanding of the field as a whole is the current consensus is less about negotiating skills or propensity to negotiate, though they make some of the difference, but rather gender differences in taking time off and demand for greater flexibility. See for example work by Marianne Bertrand and Claudia Goldin.
However one important caveat here is that these papers often overlook women of minorities and low income individuals in general. Because there are serious data issues with such individuals taking time off vs. unemployed vs. not reappearing in panel studies.
lightskintwin
Banned
They are. Anecdotal example I know, but I remember working with a female co worker who was one of the nicest people I ever meant and would make my coffee for me every morning (voluntarily), and was incredibly polite to everybody. One day she got fired, and nobody could understand why. Come to find out she was clashing with her manager, who was a woman, and constantly questioning her decisions. So I talk to the co worker afterwards and she admittedly tells me she has always had issues with reporting to and taking orders from women. She didn't understand why, and for whatever reason she has no issues reporting to and taking orders from a man.
men have more testosterone, they are less afraid of taking risk, are more bold, no surprise they would try to negotiate more
Agreed, which is why I said that I don't find it implausible to assert that there might be a genetic/biological component to the willingness to negotiate. Note that I said "willingness," not "skill." The skill-based aspect of negotiation is learned, obviously. However, when looked at in aggregate, those who are less risk averse as a population will engage in more negotiation and thus reap more benefits even when controlling for learned "ability."
It's the same as in the social sphere: You can be the smoothest talker in the world, but if you're not willing to open your mouth, it doesn't matter to anyone.
killer rin
Member
Yep, thats toooootallly the reason. Evolution decided that a Human made concept such as the economy, how many pieces of paper you carry in your back pocket and the art of negotiation helps your survivability and specifically selected those traits in a way that made men better than women.
Fucking idiots
Fucking idiots
In the world of jobs, I imagine it's more for self protection. Label the other woman a bitch and you are their side.
Interalized misogyny is a thing.
cubicle47b
Member
Skills do (generally) improve with practice so it's not completely divorced from willingness.
Negotiation played a pretty big part in my wife's current salary and possibly in how quickly she's been promoted. She was offered mid-50's for a project manager position in late 2015, countered with 70K as her floor (which was much higher than the salary range for that position), and they responded by changing the job to project manager 2 and offered her 65K with a 6% raise a month or two later. In late 2016 she took a level 3 position as an asset manager and after her raise was making 77K. This month she was promoted to a project portfolio manager position (management track) and moved up to 85K. She's a top performer and is very good at networking, but I don't know if she makes these moves this quickly and almost certainly doesn't make as much without nailing that first negotiation.
Sony
Nintendo
Multiple studies really. I even have female coworkers that the same as I do for doing less, so this whole gender pay gap thing is really irritating for me. However, doesn't change the fact that the dude mentioned in the OP is... Eh... *cennsored*
Negotiation isn't really the major cause for the gender wage gap. Controlling for everything but gender the gap becomes much smaller.
Of course when you control for pretty much anything you're controlling away discrimination. For example, it might be that women make less because they choose lower paying jobs, but maybe they choose lower paying jobs because of discrimination.
The whole negotiation point is largely a red herring, imo.
cubicle47b
Member
I don't know that negotiation dominates the wage gap conversation over various types of discrimination (direct or indirect) or life choices. It is probably the easiest thing to address, though.
Genetic variation is not always driven by survival needs. But there is a large literature looking at risk taking differences by gender.
For example, men are far more likely to take high risk jobs with high fatality rates. Perhaps this is overconfidence rather than objective risk taking.
But its not even difficult to come up with explanations rooted in survival selections for why males might be more risk taking.
Edit: hopefully it goes without saying that even if it was genetic variation, they would be trying to bridge that gap. Seems that's exactly what the official was saying they are trying to do.
Beren the Empty-Handed
Member
Well he got one thing correct.
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