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[shinobi602]

Full interview here: http://www.spiegel.de/international...ef-discusses-development-of-is-a-1065131.html

Retired Lt. General Michael Flynn, the former head of the Defense Intelligence Agency who came up through intelligence positions in Iraq and Afghanistan, says that the George W. Bush administration's Iraq war was a tremendous blunder that helped to create the self-proclaimed Islamic State, or ISIS.

"It was a huge error," Flynn said about the Iraq war in a detailed interview with German newspaper Der Spiegel published Sunday. "As brutal as Saddam Hussein was, it was a mistake to just eliminate him," Flynn went on to say. "The same is true for Moammar Gadhafi and for Libya, which is now a failed state. The historic lesson is that it was a strategic failure to go into Iraq. History will not be and should not be kind with that decision."

When told by Der Spiegel reporters Matthias Gebauer and Holger Stark that the Islamic State would not "be where it is now without the fall of Baghdad," Flynn, without reservations, said: "Yes, absolutely."

Flynn, who served in the U.S. Army for more than 30 years, also said that the American military response following 9/11 was not well thought-out at all and based on significant misunderstandings.

"When 9/11 occurred, all the emotions took over, and our response was, 'Where did those bastards come from? Let's go kill them. Let's go get them,'" he said. Instead of determining why the U.S. was attacked by terrorists, Flynn said, the Bush administration was looking at where the terrorists came from and locations to attack. "Then," Flynn said, "we strategically marched in the wrong direction."

Following the 9/11 attacks, the U.S. invaded Iraq in 2003 based on sketchy evidence presented by the Bush administration that linked weapons of mass destruction and terrorist organization Al Qaeda to former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein. The fall of Hussein resulted in chaos and led to a power vacuum in the region that terrorist organizations, like the Islamic State, have taken advantage of.

Flynn acknowledged just how wrongheaded the U.S. approach was as evidenced by the country's release of current Islamic State leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi in late 2004. The Pentagon has said that Baghdadi was arrested earlier that year near Falluja, but was released in December along with a large group of prisoners it deemed to be "low-level."

"We were too dumb. We didn't understand who we had there at that moment," Flynn said.

Flynn, who, before retiring most recently served as head of the Defense Intelligence Agency upon being nominated to the position by President Barack Obama, has also been critical of his former boss' strategy and language surrounding the terrorist group.

In a recent interview with Mehdi Hasan on Al Jazeera's "Head to Head," Flynn took aim at Obama's publicly stated goals to "degrade and ultimately destroy" the Islamic State, saying that while the administration is effectively degrading the organization, the group cannot be "destroyed."

"We may cause it to change its name, but we are never going to destroy this organization," Flynn said. "Destroy means to completely eliminate -- he should not have used those words, those were incorrect words to use and he should have been more precise."

Following the violent attacks in Paris earlier this month, Flynn said that the Obama administration's foreign policy is "amateurish" and has "its own place of responsibility in the mayhem that we are seeing right now."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/iraq-war-isis-michael-flynn_565c83a9e4b079b2818af89c

 

[ZeezbruhTV]

Shocking.

 

[univariate]

No shit

 

[Flying Toaster]

I won't argue but can't this be said for a lot of regional conflicts in countries with little to no authority. Going in to Iraq was not the brightest thing in the world.

 

[RDreamer]

Buried the big lead: they literally had ISIS's leader back in 2004 and released him.

So crazy in hindsight. Like finding out you had Hitler a few years before the Holocaust and released him.

 

[Shaanyboi]

Thanks Captain Obvious. Or Commander, rather...

 

[John Dunbar]

Buried the big lead: they literally had ISIS's leader back in 2004 and released him.

So crazy in hindsight. Like finding out you had Hitler a few years before the Holocaust and released him.

technically they did have hitler in prison and then released him.

 

[Kyzer]

Buried the big lead: they literally had ISIS's leader back in 2004 and released him.

So crazy in hindsight. Like finding out you had Hitler a few years before the Holocaust and released him.

This was already known though, that's why it's not the headline.

 

[DarthWoo]

Buried the big lead: they literally had ISIS's leader back in 2004 and released him.

So crazy in hindsight. Like finding out you had Hitler a few years before the Holocaust and released him.

Not really an apt comparison, as in Hitler's case Germany wasn't really engaged in hostilities to the same degree. Instead, he was a seemingly bizarre political candidate who wasn't initially getting taken seriously but who created a popular movement by directing the nation's hatred toward scapegoating one vulnerable group .... uh oh.

 

[RDreamer]

technically they did have hitler in prison and then released him.

Dammit, twice in history!!

This was already known though, that's why it's not the headline.

Ah, that's the headline I saw when I saw the news story yesterday and it was news to me.

 

[massoluk]

technically they did have hitler in prison and then released him.

I'm really not convinced jailing any of the two will result in the butterfly effect of wiping out the existence of genocidal asshole organizations anyway.

 

[Psychoward]

Buried the big lead: they literally had ISIS's leader back in 2004 and released him.

So crazy in hindsight. Like finding out you had Hitler a few years before the Holocaust and released him.

He wrote Mein Kampf from prison iirc

 

[SpecX]

I definitely agree with him that history and the school teachings must claim the way the Bush administration handled the Iraq war as a failure. Lessons must be learned from this so that any future conflicts don't go down this same path, although I don't see anyone learning from this unfortunately and it will just take another emotional reaction to start something similar.

 

[lastplayed]

MissionAccomplished.jpg

 

[Flying Toaster]

Buried the big lead: they literally had ISIS's leader back in 2004 and released him.

So crazy in hindsight. Like finding out you had Hitler a few years before the Holocaust and released him.

But hitler was in prison. Hell he was even in jail earlier in his life.

 

[Principate]

Not really an apt comparison, as in Hitler's case Germany wasn't really engaged in hostilities to the same degree. Instead, he was a seemingly bizarre political candidate who wasn't initially getting taken seriously but who created a popular movement by directing the nation's hatred toward scapegoating one vulnerable group .... uh oh.

TBF even then Hitler wouldn't have succeeded if it wasn't a backdoor deal to give him chancellorship. His whole rise to power was a long list of blunders by the Weimar republic and an sadly timed death.

I'm really not convinced jailing any of the two will result in the butterfly effect of wiping out the existence of genocidal asshole organizations anyway.

Eh Hitler literally was the Nazi party if he didn't exist there's a decent chance Germany wouldn't have started the second war (though another war may have happened.)

 

[Africanus]

It is true, the group cannot be destroyed by a battle of arms.

What must be combated is the ideology, which can only be affected by the education level and quality of life of a substantial portion the Middle East.

These improvements are not likely for decades.

 

[Morat]

Meanwhile in the UK, our prime minister has called the opposition leader and anyone who agrees with him a "terrorist sympathizer" as he drums up support for UK bombing of Syria.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

So crazy in hindsight. Like finding out you had Hitler a few years before the Holocaust and released him.

Mein Kampf was written while Hitler was in prison for initiating a political coup in Bavaria aiming to take control of the country.

He got 5 years. For high treason.

 

[OpinionatedCyborg]

Going into Iraq catalyzed the emergence of ISIS, but I think it would've happened regardless. Saddam was getting old and his successors were stupid psychopaths with no leadership ability. The 2011/12 Arab Spring would've rolled through. There would've been a crisis of leadership, sectarian violence and perhaps civil war and sectarian violence.

When told by Der Spiegel reporters Matthias Gebauer and Holger Stark that the Islamic State would not "be where it is now without the fall of Baghdad," Flynn, without reservations, said: "Yes, absolutely."

Sounds about right.

 

[RDreamer]

Mein Kampf was written while Hitler was in prison for initiating a political coup in Bavaria aiming to take control of the country.

He got 5 years. For high treason.

I really need to read up a bit more on this side of history I suppose. I feel like I kind of knew some of this but obviously spaced.

Kind of crazy to think how some of the worlds most heinous leaders were actually caught before they did a lot of even worse shit.

 

[JustenP88]

It's funny how exercising common sense makes cadidates for office look "weak on foreign policy."

 

[Mimosa97]

Sadly everything America has done post-9/11 only favored those who attacked them in the first place.

If the US wanted to win the war against terrorism they should have targeted Saudi Arabia and only Saudi Arabia.

 

[ReAxion]

It is true, the group cannot be destroyed by a battle of arms.

What must be combated is the ideology, which can only be affected by the education level and quality of life of a substantial portion the Middle East.

These improvements are not likely for decades.

Go figure a military guy takes the nuance out of "degrade and ultimately destroy" by doing the ol' "the dictionary defines destroy as" and kicking that straw man square in the nuts.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

If the US wanted to win the war against terrorism they should have targeted Saudi Arabia and only Saudi Arabia.

You think invading Mecca and Medina would have resulted in less terrorism and Islamic extremism?

I don't think that's a well thought out counterfactual.

 

[dabig2]

Slight correction to the Commander here. Bush was planning Iraq long before 9/11 even happened. This wasn't an absent-minded and emotional Bush who just wanted to attack Iraq for 9/11 cause he read some bad data, he was using 9/11 as an excuse to sell the war that he was planning for already.

So yeah, it's vile, evil, and I still can't believe no one has been honestly jailed for this. Yet Hillary has to endure 4 years of bullshit over Benghazi?

 

[Condom]

Mein Kampf was written while Hitler was in prison for initiating a political coup in Bavaria aiming to take control of the country.

He got 5 years. For high treason.

Yup, history is full of blunders that have costed the lives of millions of people and destroyed the futures of even more people.

 

[funkypie]

It's a shame people can't engage there brain when in a position of power rather than wait until after they have retired.

Bush even said Iraq was a mistake... Long after he left office.

 

[Dixon's Jet]

technically they did have hitler in prison and then released him.

He was treated like a celebrity in prison and he got out super early.

On topic: thanks again Bush.

 

[RangerX]

This shouldn't even need to be said. Unfortunately it does because it needs to be recognised before everyone goes in gung ho against Isis in Syria. It won't work without a long term political solution. I guarantee it. Before the Iraq war there was not a single recorded suicide attack in the countries history. Not a single one. Since 2003 there has been 1892. yeah great job there US.

 

[Jumeira]

Bush/Blair really messed that place up

 

[kmax]

You don't say?

 

[Chairman Yang]

It is true, the group cannot be destroyed by a battle of arms.

What must be combated is the ideology, which can only be affected by the education level and quality of life of a substantial portion the Middle East.

These improvements are not likely for decades.

In territories controlled by groups like ISIS or Boko Haram, no other ideology or education is allowed. There's no way to combat the ideology within those territories without at least some force.

 

[Dega]

Bush/Blair really messed that place up

hmm yeah but we havent done any better handling them since and probably just made it worse?

 

[gutter_trash]

no duh

removing Saddam was such a stupid move when they already had him contained in a No Fly Zone

 

[teruterubozu]

It's a shame people can't engage there brain when in a position of power rather than wait until after they have retired.

Bush even said Iraq was a mistake... Long after he left office.

"engage their brain." Sorry, it was too ironic

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

In territories controlled by groups like ISIS or Boko Haram, no other ideology or education is allowed.

And an alarming number of recruits are second or third generation people from countries with high quality universal education.

 

[funkypie]

This shouldn't even need to be said. Unfortunately it does because it needs to be recognised before everyone goes in gung ho against Isis in Syria. It won't work without a long term political solution. I guarantee it. Before the Iraq war there was not a single recorded suicide attack in the countries history. Not a single one. Since 2003 there has been 1892. yeah great job there US.

How worse can it get than Isis. I feel like Isis is frezia at 100% full power. Can Islamic jihadist get any worse? Can't see it happening. Isis is radical Islam at its worse imo.

 

[univariate]

He kept us safe, though.

 

[Principate]

no duh

removing Saddam was such a stupid move when they already had him contained in a No Fly Zone

Bush had to finish his daddies business. I mean Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11, How the bush administration managed to sell that war on complete bullshit continues to astound me.

I still remember the cheek they had to mock the French after Vetoing that shit down. In the end France still suffered.

 

[Condom]

You know Syria is the new Iraq, the country was promising despite the dictatorship but will now get totally destroyed. Returned to a 3rd world in a few years. All that progress for nothing, all those promising lives destroyed.

 

[KillerMan91]

Eh Hitler literally was the Nazi party if he didn't exist there's a decent chance Germany wouldn't have started the second war (though another war may have happened.)

Even without Hitler I think there would have been big scale war in Europe during that time period. It just would have been started by Soviets and couple of years later.

 

[Rubenov]

You know Syria is the new Iraq, the country was promising despite the dictatorship but will now get totally destroyed. Returned to a 3rd world in a few years. All that progress for nothing, all those promising lives destroyed.

Mostly due to Arab Spring/Assad. The US bears a large portion of the responsibility for ISIS' creation, though.

 

[dabig2]

He kept us safe, though.

No sentence yet this primary has triggered me more than that one. And there's been a lot of dumb and inane shit tossed around so far.

 

[Piecake]

http://thedollop.libsyn.com/122-the-iraq-war

People should check out this podcast. It made me realize the the occupation was an even more gigantic fuck-up than I previously thought. Pure idiocy in execution.

 

[goomba]

Slight correction to the Commander here. Bush was planning Iraq long before 9/11 even happened. This wasn't an absent-minded and emotional Bush who just wanted to attack Iraq for 9/11 cause he read some bad data, he was using 9/11 as an excuse to sell the war that he was planning for already.

So yeah, it's vile, evil, and I still can't believe no one has been honestly jailed for this. Yet Hillary has to endure 4 years of bullshit over Benghazi?

Iraq wasnt all they planned before 9/11.

“We’re going to take out seven countries in 5 years, starting with Iraq, and then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and, finishing off, Iran” –
General Wesley Clark. Retired 4-star U.S. Army general, Supreme Allied Commander of NATO during the 1999 War on Yugoslavia .

 

[Africanus]

In territories controlled by groups like ISIS or Boko Haram, no other ideology or education is allowed. There's no way to combat the ideology within those territories without at least some force.

Perhaps I might have said "solely by arms".

All I see currently is a repeat of the invasion of the last decade, in which there is a plan to use arms without a plan of rebuilding the region socially and economically in the coming half century.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Bush had to finish his daddies business. I mean Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11, How the bush administration managed to sell that war on complete bullshit continues to astound me.

I still remember the cheek they had to mock the French after Vetoing that shit down. In the end France still suffered.

I dislike W but the constant daddy references never made sense to me. HW Bush will never outright say it but nearly all of his comments on the war suggest he opposed it. He's on record saying Cheney basically pushed W around. I'll take the father's foreign policy over the son's any day of the week.

 

[ElTorro]

"We may cause it to change its name, but we are never going to destroy this organization," Flynn said. "Destroy means to completely eliminate -- he should not have used those words, those were incorrect words to use and he should have been more precise."

You can neither defeat an ideology with bombs, nor with silence.

My biggest concern is that the “war on terrorism” will last for many decades.

 

[Principate]

Even without Hitler I think there would have been big scale war in Europe during that time period. It just would have been started by Soviets and couple of years later.

Most countries weren't that eager. There's a reason why almost everyone allowed Hitler to get away with as much shit as he did even Russia. They were still recovering from the effects of first world war.