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[CornBurrito]

Honestly, I think having money for entertainment and vacations is also a necessity. Being able to relieve stress is one of a human's most basic needs (reduces physical and mental health risks) and makes most people a better worker, to boot.

I mean it is clear what Boom Boom Pow is going for. He is hoping to trap someone in a "GOTCHA!" trap by getting someone to quote him an exact number and then either talk about why that wage is too high for low skill jobs and how nobody should be payed that for flipping burgers, or argue that "necessities" shouldn't cover things like housing or utilities.

which was the point behind my question earlier about, making enough money to be able to travel and getting a nice relaxing vacation.

Now, everyone should be able to afford living wherever they want right? we can't make it exclusively that only rich people can live next to the beach.

Am I wrong anywhere in my calculation?

Called it 100%. Thanks for not disappointing Boom Boom. I am especially surprised at how you twisted entertainment and vacation into being able to travel outside the country, owning a beachfront property, and other ludicrously expensive things. It is almost as if you can't see a difference between food and entertainment. So when you hear people say it isn't fair that people aren't being paid enough to feed themselves, you think that they also find it unfair that not everyone can afford a 3 month vacation to France.Or you think that poor people should just sit in their house after work and do nothing (why aren't they working 24/7? if they are so "poor") and can't fathom that entertainment is necessary. So when someone brings that up you immediately have to twist it into the most expensive forms of entertainment possible. You're a joke.

 

[The Technomancer]

I don't see why problem appears only after people start working there. They knew what they are signing for.

Because we have a surplus of jobs now, clearly. Its an employees market, they just have so much ability to pick and choose what employment they feel suits them.

 

[Cynar]

This isn't about WalMart or McDonalds. It is that minimum wage actually isn't enough to live on. The US should raise minimum wage to something liveable. Companies can complain, but is not like WalMart or McDonalds can move.

As much as I'd like to see that there are other issues that need to be adjusted as well. Like access to affordable health care for all and better benefits for workers.

 

[DoYouEvenLift?]

I still don't know why every job in America has to be expected to provide a "living" wage. Why is it not ok to have part time jobs or jobs for students anymore? I just think it's kind of sad that, as a society, we've apparently decided it's not PC or whatever to tell people they need to better themselves. There's no nice way to say this, but if you don't have any skills beyond McDonald's level labor then you either haven't applied yourself or you have a physical/mental disability. And if it's the latter, I'm in full support of a welfare system to help people like that. But if it's the former, I don't think it's fair to mandate that McDonald's pay you more to do menial labor.

 

[User 100115]

I still don't know why every job in America has to be expected to provide a "living" wage. Why is it not ok to have part time jobs or jobs for students anymore? I just think it's kind of sad that, as a society, we've apparently decided it's not PC or whatever to tell people they need to better themselves. There's no nice way to say this, but if you don't have any skills beyond McDonald's level labor then you either haven't applied yourself or you have a physical/mental disability. And if it's the latter, I'm in full support of a welfare system to help people like that. But if it's the former, I don't think it's fair to mandate that McDonald's pay you more to do menial labor.

You are aware how incredibly expensive education after high school is in America, right? And how poor people can't afford to 'apply themselves'?

 

[CHEEZMO™]

I still don't know why every job in America has to be expected to provide a "living" wage. Why is it not ok to have part time jobs or jobs for students anymore? I just think it's kind of sad that, as a society, we've apparently decided it's not PC or whatever to tell people they need to better themselves. There's no nice way to say this, but if you don't have any skills beyond McDonald's level labor then you either haven't applied yourself or you have a physical/mental disability. And if it's the latter, I'm in full support of a welfare system to help people like that. But if it's the former, I don't think it's fair to mandate that McDonald's pay you more to do menial labor.

"Unskilled workers don't deserve to make enough to live on."

 

[Apoc87]

At least they are giving advice.

 

[DoYouEvenLift?]

"Unskilled workers don't deserve to make enough to live on."

Not from McDonald's they don't.

EDIT

I'll just point out that demanding wage hikes is just going to end up killing jobs. Some financial analyst will compare the cost of amortizing a robotic cooking system over ten years or so versus paying every fry cook 28k a year for ten years and then they'll pull the trigger. So then, not only are unskilled workers not being paid a living wage, but the highschool kids with afterschool jobs are SOL too.

 

[turnbuckle]

Horrible. Really wish there were fast food unions. Well, more unions in general. This is all way too fucked up.

 

[Jimothy]

I love how people talk about poor people having kids like it's unnatural or something. God forbid a person follows their evolutionary instincts to procreate. Maybe the economic system that makes them poor in the first place is unnatural. When you read so many stories about minimum wage employees having children, something in your brain should make you realize that it's a systemic problem and not personal failing. But nah, let's blame all our problems on the poor and their herds of kids, not on the companies who are hell bent on making Americs a neo-feudal hellscape where workers should be thankful for the scraps that their corporate overlords allow them.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Horrible. Really wish there were fast food unions. Well, more unions in general. This is all way too fucked up.

More unionists, fewer unions. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O93YpTYCWRk

 

[turnbuckle]

Not from McDonald's they don't.

Companies shouldn't be able to provide jobs that workers working full-time still fall under a realistic poverty line. I don't think entry level jobs should be paying enough that someone lives a life of luxury, but a full-time job in this country should at least allow a person to live a life comparable to The Simpsons or The Bundy's.

McDonald's had 1.5 billion in profits in their 3rd quarter this year. This is not a company that should be telling employees to eat stale bread.

401(k)s and deunionization have contributed greatly to the wealth of the haves, and greatly towards the dismantling of the middle and lower middle-class. They've completely eviscerated the poor. I mention 401(k)s because a lot of people who think what's going on is terrible also hate to see companies in their retirement portfolios take any hit whatsoever in earnings.

 

[The Technomancer]

I still don't know why every job in America has to be expected to provide a "living" wage. Why is it not ok to have part time jobs or jobs for students anymore? I just think it's kind of sad that, as a society, we've apparently decided it's not PC or whatever to tell people they need to better themselves. There's no nice way to say this, but if you don't have any skills beyond McDonald's level labor then you either haven't applied yourself or you have a physical/mental disability. And if it's the latter, I'm in full support of a welfare system to help people like that. But if it's the former, I don't think it's fair to mandate that McDonald's pay you more to do menial labor.

There are many many more crappy minimum wage jobs then there are high-school students. Companies know this. Companies know full well that they are hiring a lot of people who are trying to make a living based on their job

And on the inverse side of thing there aren't enough jobs for everyone skilled to have good paying work. Not anymore. A college degree doesn't guarantee work. The job distribution in this country is a bit fucked right now. Its not like there's just a ready and waiting pool of lots of skilled labor waiting to be filled by applicants, not outside of like a few specific fields. Hell, just look at the recent "my girlfriend is a nursing grad who has been looking for employment for ten months" thread.

 

[Yamauchi]

Because their profit to overhead margin is the highest. Most gas stations, grocery stores or mom&pop stores can't afford to pay their employees high wages because their profit margin is too slim. Companies like Walmart make MASSIVE profits, and all that money is funneled up to the top of the company- CEOs and owners. It's a perpetual system of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer.

Walmart has a profit margin of 3% and an EBITD margin of 7%.

These are not 'massive' profits -- not even close.

I think Jaron Lanier is the only person I've ever heard say something interesting on the topic of Walmart.

 

[DoYouEvenLift?]

Companies shouldn't be able to provide jobs that workers working full-time still fall under a realistic poverty line. I don't think entry level jobs should be paying enough that someone lives a life of luxury, but a full-time job in this country should at least allow a person to live a life comparable to The Simpsons or The Bundy's.

McDonald's had 1.5 billion in profits in their 3rd quarter this year. This is not a company that should be telling employees to eat stale bread.

401(k)s and deunionization have contributed greatly to the wealth of the haves, and greatly towards the dismantling of the middle and lower middle-class. They've completely eviscerated the poor. I mention 401(k)s because a lot of people who think what's going on is terrible also hate to see companies in their retirement portfolios take any hit whatsoever in earnings.

Well, agree to disagree, I guess. I could get onboard with thinking a FT job on minimum wage should be enough for a single person to support themselves (with food, heat, air, and health care... which I think should be socialized), but I don't agree that it should be enough to sustain a family of 5 (and two pets).

 

[The Technomancer]

Well, agree to disagree, I guess. I could get onboard with thinking a FT job on minimum wage should be enough for a single person to support themselves (with food, heat, air, and health care... which I think should be socialized), but I don't agree that it should be enough to sustain a family of 5 (and two pets).

I'm fine with it not being enough to support a family if there's lots of jobs available that do support a family and the people taking minimum wage are really just high-school kids or whatever. The problem is that the reality of the current situation is that a lot of people are having to make do with these low-paying positions because there isn't anywhere up the ladder for them to move and in that situation yeah, I think you have to be able to support at least one or two kids on that or else society moves in a really sick direction.

 

[Dorrin]

What we are seeing here is the direct result of our destruction of unionized blue collar jobs over the past 30 years. An entire group of workers has been displaced and not all of them can make the move into STEM or accounting jobs etc, etc. Hell even those areas are feeling pain, I know as I'm in IT and everytime I turn around I see more outsourcing. It won't stop with IT either, eventually business jobs will go as well, accounting, finance, marketing etc, it will all eventually go.

So this group of displaced workers is now competing with students and people who are okay with part-time work. It is why we are seeing the average age of these jobs rise over time. In the past ladies like the one in this article would have been working a factory job somewhere maybe making 15/20+ an hour and would be fine.

 

[Jimothy]

What we are seeing here is the direct result of our destruction of unionized blue collar jobs over the past 30 years. An entire group of workers has been displaced and not all of them can make the move into STEM or accounting jobs etc, etc. Hell even those areas are feeling pain, I know as I'm in IT and everytime I turn around I see more outsourcing. It won't stop with IT either, eventually business jobs will go as well, accounting, finance, marketing etc, it will all eventually go.

So this group of displaced workers is now competing with students and people who are okay with part-time work. It is why we are seeing the average age of these jobs rise over time. In the past ladies like the one in this article would have been working a factory job somewhere maybe making 15/20+ an hour and would be fine.

It's always funny to see STEM people in these threads act like their jobs are somehow irreplaceable. Every worker is expendable in a capitalistic system, especially in the age of automation. There's always someone willing to do your job for less. The sooner the middle and lower classes stop bickering and look up the sooner we'll see some real change. Until then we're probably fucked.

 

[bdouble]

Sad thing is this has been going on for a long time with big corporations. You never hear about the wage cuts. My mother a flight attendent had a her salary cut to a third and they sent out a letter telling them to dunpster dive.

 

[The Technomancer]

Sad thing is this has been going on for a long time with big corporations. You never hear about the wage cuts. My mother a flight attendent had a her salary cut to a third and they sent out a letter telling them to dunpster dive.

Wait what? What wording did they use?

 

[RoninChaos]

which was the point behind my question earlier about, making enough money to be able to travel and getting a nice relaxing vacation.

so, this place right here http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/apa/4201051438.html costs $2600 a month. another $200 for all utilities. Now, everyone should be able to afford living wherever they want right? we can't make it exclusively that only rich people can live next to the beach.

Let's say for food, it'll costs each person about $10 per day, so $30 per day for food (underestimating here. So an extra $900 a month for food).

Healthcare, let's say it's employer subsidized, so for a family of 3, we'll underestimate and say, $2000 per year.

Transportation: Let's say, we get the family to own 2 cars, drive a relative 30 minute to work. Maintenance, gas, monthly, installment, we'll say, a year, it'll cost about $3000.

So, let's add up the cost. Rent: $2800 a month x 12 = $33,600 a year. Food: $10,800. Healthcare: $2000. Transportation: $3000. Total: $50000 a year. Now, let's make it simple, and have one parent work, and one stay at home to take care of the kid.

So $50,000 a year in net income. So before tax takehome, it's gonna be about $60,000 gross income.

So the person, should be making $29 an hour to sustain this lifestyle.

Am I wrong anywhere in my calculation?

Where the fuck can you have health care for a family for 2000 bucks a year? Are you high? I spent 600 a month on insurance for my family when I was at my last company. The company I'm with now pays for our healthcare and they've paid almost 10k so far this year.

 

[The Technomancer]

Where the fuck can you have health care for a family for 2000 bucks a year? Are you high? I spent 600 a month on insurance for my family when I was at my last company. The company I'm with now pays for our healthcare and they've paid almost 10k so far this year.

I stopped taking him seriously at "should be able to live wherever they want so beachfront property right?"

 

[Baraka in the White House]

Where the fuck can you have health care for a family for 2000 bucks a year? Are you high? I spent 600 a month on insurance for my family when I was at my last company. The company I'm with now pays for our healthcare and they've paid almost 10k so far this year.

I love that people keep dropping in to rip that post up. It really is ridiculously naive.

 

[Jimothy]

I love that people keep dropping in to rip that post up. It really is ridiculously naive.

I don't get why people even bother to respond to his posts in these types of threads. Stop enabling him dammit.

 

[RoninChaos]

That sounds like a great business decision to me. The onus is on her for accepting it.

But that's only half of her issue. The other half is somehow she decided that it was a good idea to rear kids in her financial condition. The fact she has more than one kid is mind boggling. After the first one instead of thinking "Wow, this is expensive, we can't afford this", she thought "Let's have another!"

And 10 bucks says she doesn't have health care or access to contraception. Get the fuck out of here with that bullshit. The same people treating these workers as sub human are the same ones who have spent the last 40 years dismantling programs that helped them become successful in the first place. We have less upward mobility in this country since before WWII. But these issues will never be addresses in a real way because people will always fall back on arguments like "well she shouldn't have had kids!"

Jesus, the lack of empathy for those who are in horrible situations is absurdly stunning sometimes.

 

[Narag]

I stopped taking him seriously at "should be able to live wherever they want so beachfront property right?"

I love that people keep dropping in to rip that post up. It really is ridiculously naive.

Either schtick or extreme naïveté as its an ongoing thing:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=90456818&postcount=104

 

[RoninChaos]

I stopped taking him seriously at "should be able to live wherever they want so beachfront property right?"

It's obvious what he's trying to do but man, that kind of ignorant shit can't be allowed to slide without some sort of rebuttal. The lack of empathy is astounding.

The only thing I can think is that he's either extremely naive, extremely ignorant, or is being paid by Walmart and McDonald's.

 

[gcubed]

I love that people keep dropping in to rip that post up. It really is ridiculously naive.

remember, $2 an hour extra for someone making 7.50 an hour is barely anything and not worth it

 

[CornBurrito]

I stopped taking him seriously at "should be able to live wherever they want so beachfront property right?"

It is pretty telling that he didn't respond to your posts, and only jumped back into the thread when someone mentioned entertainment, allowing him to twist that into beachfront property and multiple out-of-country vacations a year.

It's obvious what he's trying to do but man, that kind of ignorant shit can't be allowed to slide without some sort of rebuttal. The lack of empathy is astounding.

The only thing I can think is that he's either extremely naive, extremely ignorant, or is being paid by Walmart and McDonald's.

He isn't interested in having an actual conversation. He'd rather just strawman and say that those wanting higher wages for low-skill employees somehow want everyone to be able to afford multiple vacations to Hawaii and beachfront property. Because clothing, heat, and food apparently are just for funsies and not necessary for survival making them the exact same as beachfront property.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

I'm happy I probably won't end up in a situation where I only earn minimum-wage.
*knocks on wood*

The system is harsh, poor people have my sympathies.

 

[coldfoot]

Hahaha, this isn't even the same article I was reading in the past week about McDonalds offering shit advice to its workforce:

Not defending McD's and low wages, but 26 year old with 3 sons working minimum wage? I'm sorry but I don't feel any sympathy for that person. Having kids should be a luxury just like having a car, etc and regulated. Maybe China's not so bad for doing this.

 

[Aiustis]

I'm kind of poor. I pay for school out of pocket because I don't want to run the risk of having a job that doesn't make me enough to pay off student loans. Fortunately I'm lucky enough to have a job that isn't extremely terrible and pays me above minimum wage. But I still have plenty of coworkers that work 2 jobs and such.

 

[LuchaShaq]

I still don't know why every job in America has to be expected to provide a "living" wage. Why is it not ok to have part time jobs or jobs for students anymore? I just think it's kind of sad that, as a society, we've apparently decided it's not PC or whatever to tell people they need to better themselves. There's no nice way to say this, but if you don't have any skills beyond McDonald's level labor then you either haven't applied yourself or you have a physical/mental disability. And if it's the latter, I'm in full support of a welfare system to help people like that. But if it's the former, I don't think it's fair to mandate that McDonald's pay you more to do menial labor.

40 hours a week at mcD's/walmart aka full time wouldn't be nearly enough to pay for college.

Part time student job my ass.

 

[Thomas_Daly]

stop complaining poor people

J/K

mc-donalds like rubbing it in there face about been poor

no gifts for Christmas Christ

 

[Duane Cunningham]

Where the fuck can you have health care for a family for 2000 bucks a year? Are you high? I spent 600 a month on insurance for my family when I was at my last company. The company I'm with now pays for our healthcare and they've paid almost 10k so far this year.

Yeah, I'm paying about $700 monthly here for the family pack. And that's just what comes out of my paycheck; it's not like it's 100% coverage... in fact we're still on a ton of medical "payment plans" for having the gall to have a second child earlier this year. The entire amount that has come out of my pocket for health care in 2013 is way over 10k easily.

Man, what an insane post by Boom Boom. $2,000 is an "underestimation"???? Sheeeiiiiit. $2k divided by 12 is $166 per month or $83 per paycheck!!! Are you kidding? If that's all I had to pay for my families healthcare, we'd be RICH!

 

[captmorgan]

Should a min wage be equal for a 15 year high school student and a 30 year old single mother of 3?

If not whats the cut off age? Should the min wage be based off of one person or a family?
How big of a family should you be able to support on min wage?

 

[VariantX]

40 hours a week at mcD's/walmart aka full time wouldn't be nearly enough to pay for college.

Part time student job my ass.

That's IF you get 40 hrs/wk. I can't even think of anyone I know who works full time at McD's anymore.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

I'd love to see a early 20th century GAF.

Child labor? Teaching them some good skills

Workplace safety? Think of the bottom line, people dying also frees up jobs for new workers

Minimum wage? The whole economy will collapse!

Those dirty progressives are trying to undermine our great free market economy. By the 1950s we'll be communist!

 

[Fisticuffs]

Not defending McD's and low wages, but 26 year old with 3 sons working minimum wage? I'm sorry but I don't feel any sympathy for that person.

It's people like you who also fuck over the living breathing kids she has already brought into this world. but fuck them too, right?

 

[Tidus_Great]

if you give an honest weeks work you should make a liveable wage. man screw this country and some of the people sometimes with the BS they say. I don't even blame some of the girls who just go on welfare this system is bogus for low paid workers and lack of unions just takes away any power they have to change their situation.

 

[captmorgan]

I'd love to see a early 20th century GAF.

Child labor? Teaching them some good skills

Workplace safety? Think of the bottom line, people dying also frees up jobs for new workers

Minimum wage? The whole economy will collapse!

Actually I`m very thankful I was able to work on a construction site when I was a child

Have you been to a industrial work site lately? Safety is now used as a weapon by a lot of workers so they don`t actually have to do any work.

Whats that you? need 5 manwatches, 7 permits, and 3, 8 hour meetings to change a bolt.

 

[Fisticuffs]

It amazes me how little people understand the world, and how fucked up everything really truly is, because they had an easy path through life.

 

[coldfoot]

It's people like you who also fuck over the living breathing kids she has already brought into this world. but fuck them too, right?

The kids are already being punished because they're her kids and living in bad conditions. You can't really prevent people from having kids, so they should be taken away at birth and given away to adopters if the person isn't financially stable. Ideally, you'd need to have a license to be able to have kids.

 

[LuchaShaq]

Actually I`m very thankful I was able to work on a construction site when I was a child

Have you been to a industrial work site lately? Safety is now used as a weapon by a lot of workers so they don`t actually have to do any work.

Whats that you? need 5 manwatches, 7 permits, and 3, 8 hour meetings to change a bolt.

As someone who has actually worked construction you have no idea wtf you are talking about.

 

[entremet]

Actually I`m very thankful I was able to work on a construction site when I was a child

Have you been to a industrial work site lately? Safety is now used as a weapon by a lot of workers so they don`t actually have to do any work.

Whats that you? need 5 manwatches, 7 permits, and 3, 8 hour meetings to change a bolt.

How were you able to swing that? Family business?

 

[Fisticuffs]

The kids are already being punished because they're her kids and living in bad conditions. You can't really prevent people from having kids, so they should be taken away at birth and given away to adopters if the person isn't financially stable. Ideally, you'd need to have a license to be able to have kids.

what the fuck?!

 

[Jimothy]

The kids are already being punished because they're her kids and living in bad conditions. You can't really prevent people from having kids, so they should be taken away at birth and given away to adopters if the person isn't financially stable. Ideally, you'd need to have a license to be able to have kids.

Hurray eugenics!

 

[Seeds]

The kids are already being punished because they're her kids and living in bad conditions. You can't really prevent people from having kids, so they should be taken away at birth and given away to adopters if the person isn't financially stable. Ideally, you'd need to have a license to be able to have kids.

So your solution to a problem that could be solved by rising the minimum wage would be to take away the children of poor people at birth.

It always surprises me how far people are willing to go to fuck over poor people in an effort to help rich ones.

 

[demon]

The kids are already being punished because they're her kids and living in bad conditions. You can't really prevent people from having kids, so they should be taken away at birth and given away to adopters if the person isn't financially stable. Ideally, you'd need to have a license to be able to have kids.

But mandated livable wages is an extreme measure...

 

[Fisticuffs]

It always surprises me how far people are willing to go to fuck over poor people in an effort to help rich ones.

some people are content with their ignorance.