SPOILERS. If you haven't seen the film, or the recut edition.
So I grabbed the "recut.extended.unrated" edition the other day, since I had the money after grabbing Toy Story 2, admired a lot about the film, and knew it was an awesome dvd. For $30, you get the book even. So I grabbed it and brought it home. But let me tell you what I thought about the original film...
As Ned Flanders said in the original Sin City thread
Now, I knew it was Frank Miller, and to expect some of this, but I was still shocked. How it kept piling up, the dread and hopelessness. And the movie kept walking to this quick beat. Action through action, scene through scene. It's certainly different. Refreshing especially for hardcore movie-goers and reviewers. When it finished, I really thought it was a mixed bag. Some stuff was cool, other was less gripping, and I thought the style got a little tired by the end. Not the visual style at all, but the quick beat by beat style they used. So I assumed that was a comic book transferred directly to film. It reads quick when put into film.
Now fast forward to recently. I tossed in by recut disc, and watched some special features.. Sin City breakfast tacos, Tarantino segment, 15 minute film school. Then eventually threw in The Hard Goodbye. I finished with the same thoughts, the dread was overwhelming though lots of admirable moments. I imagine the dread doesn't hit as hard in bookform.. but anyway, different parts of the story got me wondering how Frank Miller illustrated this part or that part. If the way the actor's stressed their words were in line with Frank Miller. How closely it really was. I pulled out the book after watching the film.
First small things I notice is in the first scene. They cut dialogue. Marv stays on the Goldie situation longer. He doesn't slyly mention it, as something he could look into. He shows regret, and sits there, thinks about it with a cigarette.Really gotta admire Mickey Rourke adding the punch to the scene with Lucile. He's really got the style down, of this hardboiled tough guy. A new scene put back into the film, is Marv in his mom's house. This was cool I thought. They cut a line again though. And this one in a way changed the tone. Marv seems gets flustered in the film, almost comedically. Then hides things and the last thing he says to his mom is "I feel better than I have in years.." stylistically, while hiding it still. The book mentions it as a straight line, then leaves off with an innocent line. Mom - "There's something you not telling me" Marv - "Well okay. There is. I met a girl. Her name's Goldie. She's really nice". Second cut I really thought was wrong. This and the opening regret after finding her dead, when he lingers on the thought. Instead Robert took those out, and tossed in a new opening scene for Kevin at the beginning. Stylistic addition, and taking out some innocent character moments. I didn't like that.
Now's where Robert Rodriguez screws up. An entire page of Marv talking to himself, putting himself down non-humorously, while showing he's still got some brains. Why would you cut a slow, refreshing scene like this?? Rodriguez as a director, really doesn't know how to add much substance to his other films. But how much could he seriously miss in a direct book-to-film translation, of something he loves?! Next up is naked Nancy clothed. I really didn't like that change :lol The goons take Marv outside. He turns the situation around, and acts real cool in the film. In the book Marv doesn't keep his cool. And lines like "you don't feel bad no matter what" isn't a throwaway line for the book. Marv doesn't like it. It always felt like some jagged scene-to-scene/lead-to-lead detective story in the movie. I really like the book's fleshed out feel. One point they cut a trip from the church to the outside, with Marv explaining how shocked he is to do what he just did to a priest.
Now my least favorite cut of the entire thing. The rain. The rain starts up in the book panel by panel. Then leads right into a big dialogue about the rain. Marv saying how it makes him feel smarter, when everybody else is running away from the rain and get out of his way. Again he mentions a puzzle and how his brain spreads apart the pieces. Earlier he told a story about his friend who used to watch him do puzzles, and thought he was great at them, but said his friend must have been really dumb to be impressed. But now Marv starts talking about being scared. He says he's shaking and the rain's not the reason. That he wishes he could turn right back around and forget all of this. Says he's as good as dead. Then goes into saying he's more scared of dying than he is of living. Just a crap load of good stuff. All in the awesome looking rain, before he makes his decision of what to do. The film they move to his decision in the first scene. There was no progression, and for a while I thought that was the book as well. I was wrong. He says how Goldie made him feel like a white knight, a hero.. And says he owes her one. That he could die laughing if he does this right. But says he has to get this story straight first. Walks off saying he loves the rain. It helps him think. Robert here uses it for a cool looking walk in the rain and right to plot. The "more and more I'm liking the sound of it" and a shot to the Roark statue's head. Oh, and a couple of lines from Marv about who Roark is. The book builds him up and gives you an idea as to what kind of saint he's got the reputation of being. This was a pivotal scene too.
The stupid cuts keep coming though. Now you got Marv calmy explaining he's crazy, when he sees Goldie again after getting knocked out in Oldtown. He's tied up to the chair and mentions it's all his fault he's gone crazy. Forgot to take his pill, etc. Says he's probably in a gutter someplace. Again, real calmly, very far from crazy. Then logically explains that none of this matters if it isn't really happening. So when the Oldtown chicks start beating him he's laughing. The movie makes it seem like he laughs cause he's such a badass. Again, all RR doing style again. No wonder he's great for visually getting it across, he can really do style, but he even misses substance when it's placed right in front of his eyes. Later Marv throws out some more knowledge, from this apparently dumb guy. "Saying you can mess a gun up using the barrel, use the handle", while still tied up. Before hearing they used the name "Wendie" 10 or so seconds after another hit. Then an outburst from Marv after Wendy let's him know says he's going to die. About how he was too drunk to protect her, how he failed, how he's killing his way to the truth now. Till the sister Wendie falls back in regret and shock. Now in the film, everybody's hardboiled. She sticks a gun in his face and then brings it down. In the book, all the girl's feel guilty as hell, and downright shocked when he pulls off the ropes they tied him with. Marv becomes pretty respectable in this scene alone, where as the film skims by it, catching only a touch of the books impact. A really stupid cut, and a great scene he could have calmed the pace down for.
Next great scene in the book, cut from the film? Marv staring in the mirror at himself, saying he's nervous, scared.. then tells himself to think about dying. Think hard about it, because there's no way he will get out of this once he commits to it. He mentions everything that actually happens as he dies at the end. Then says good, now bury it in your belly while you still got work to do. Then he says he throws up a couple times before he's ready. Grabs his shit and goes. I mean, this is a serious visit at these girl's house. It's not a minute long segment. Then he disciplines himself not to call Wendy "Goldie" out of respect. She ran him over, shot him, pistol whipped him. A tough lady. And again he sticks to saying he's too dumb to put the whole picture together yet, but he's smart in not jumping to anything still. Then mentions how Goldie sits right next to him, but says not to get confused... Meanwhile, Wendy during this ride explains very logically how Marv owes Goldie nothing. But then Marv throws down another good argument as to why he does, her having given him something he didn't know existed, he says somberly.
More on the road stuff with Wendy and Marv. Which was a trip, not a scene in the car between Oldtown and the next lead. It's more akin to Sarah Conner, John, and The Terminator in T2. They sleep at a hotel in the book. Marv walks up to her in the middle of the night and tries to get in bed, she sends him back, and he apologizes and says he gets confused sometimes. Then goes back and monologues "I'm such a jerk". Again, all this good stuff. CUT! For time and Robert's confused pacing. He changes so many sincere lines into stylized lines. Marv's a really well rounded character, and I'm sure Mickey Rourke could have nailed all the other aspects of the character with a better director. Marv continues to flirt with Wendy, and plays the chase real smart. Moving away from a store fast, and taking shortcuts. As he leaves he says her eyes burn a hole through him, as if he were the only chance she had. It was like a post-Goldie love story that he never had, in the book. And she didn't keep a scowl on her face the whole time like she did in the movie. She just cooperates and agrees with everything Marv says. Then as he leaves she says the line "get him for me good", the only selfish thing she said during the trip. The only time she spoke up the entire trip. And Marv goes back to "I won't let you down Goldie. I promised". This time redeeming himself for the Goldie he lost earlier. A 'too late' type of love story that was lost in the film.
Then you got inner monologues of the Kevin fight. Before meeting him he explains how the nerves and fear crawl down in his belly. Says he becomes an animal of sorts. The movie just never shows the transformation. There's no pacing or time taken to slow down, show his doubts, his innocence, and transformation back into the killer when he has to. The book does, and it's a really great story too. I don't get why the hell Robert Rodriguez cut what he did. Marv lies to himself, and says he may as well enjoy the killing, since it's the only thing he's ever done well. Then goes about tying up the barbed wire, saying he just got the idea, and it was worth trying. Movie leaves all of this giving himself credit, demeaning himself, humbling inner-banter. In fact, you just get a few lines hear and there that mean nothing without the rest, that make it sound like just something cool to say. "I'm not very smart" or "I haven't taken my pills". Throwaway lines. Then Wendy shows up post-kevin, and gets smacked down. Again, a cool thing to say "It'll give you nightmares". But knowing Marv in the book, you know he did it out of care, not logic. Next think we see is a drunken Marv, who had to be drunk to even do the job.
By the end Marv is entirely noble in the book. And in the film he's left a 2D character. People said that everyone's a sinner in Sin City, and though that's true for about 85%, the book allows for a lot noble killers. Marv especially doesn't throw out punishment to anyone who doesn't deserve it. By the end, he is the hero, in the face of a corrupt world. And the cardinal is also done really stupidly in the film. He's revealed to be a pitiful man in the book, after the build up of being someone great. And Marv is shown as the noble one. The Cardinal meanwhile switches roles and becomes the insane, even though Marv was always told he was the maniac. It's a cool twist, as Marv is being screamed at "you MONSTER! MONSTER!" by a shrivel little cannibal man. Marv gives him a chance to explain himself though, says tell him the story of Kevin. The Cardinal just becomes even more pathetic as he does. And the last piece of information, the Cardinal joining in, is stated by Marv. Not the Cardinal. Again, the final block in building up Marv as a smart man despite his humbleness. Completing the detective story. The film misses all of this, with bits and pieces done right, but the overall tone done wrong. The film goes for a disgusting sick character for the Cardinal instead, and has him reveal another sick fact of Sin City. Adding to the dread of the film.
And then his present in the end, Goldie. Wendy comes back and sleeps with him, giving him all those good feelings he fought to respect. And the ending. The film goes through it like Marv's bored and cool. The book he is bored and cool because he mentioned earlier in the mirror to get used to it, to face it. He threw up over the way he would die already. He's not inhuman. He's very human, and he went through his grieving while looking in the mirror, in an awesome scene cut to get to the cool stuff. How you cut that scene as a serious director, I have no clue. And more little changes, the spitting up blood and smiling in a very cool manner in the film. Changed to a dazed and laughing "is that all you got you pansies?". Just like he said, he'd be dying laughing if he did this one thing right. The film never gets across that character. It's not Frank Miller's Sin City in the end, and it's a shame the man himself didn't do more to defend that stuff. It could have really been a perfect film, and I think it ends up just a very admirable average flick.
So I grabbed the "recut.extended.unrated" edition the other day, since I had the money after grabbing Toy Story 2, admired a lot about the film, and knew it was an awesome dvd. For $30, you get the book even. So I grabbed it and brought it home. But let me tell you what I thought about the original film...
As Ned Flanders said in the original Sin City thread
Ned Flanders said:
Now, I knew it was Frank Miller, and to expect some of this, but I was still shocked. How it kept piling up, the dread and hopelessness. And the movie kept walking to this quick beat. Action through action, scene through scene. It's certainly different. Refreshing especially for hardcore movie-goers and reviewers. When it finished, I really thought it was a mixed bag. Some stuff was cool, other was less gripping, and I thought the style got a little tired by the end. Not the visual style at all, but the quick beat by beat style they used. So I assumed that was a comic book transferred directly to film. It reads quick when put into film.
Now fast forward to recently. I tossed in by recut disc, and watched some special features.. Sin City breakfast tacos, Tarantino segment, 15 minute film school. Then eventually threw in The Hard Goodbye. I finished with the same thoughts, the dread was overwhelming though lots of admirable moments. I imagine the dread doesn't hit as hard in bookform.. but anyway, different parts of the story got me wondering how Frank Miller illustrated this part or that part. If the way the actor's stressed their words were in line with Frank Miller. How closely it really was. I pulled out the book after watching the film.
First small things I notice is in the first scene. They cut dialogue. Marv stays on the Goldie situation longer. He doesn't slyly mention it, as something he could look into. He shows regret, and sits there, thinks about it with a cigarette.Really gotta admire Mickey Rourke adding the punch to the scene with Lucile. He's really got the style down, of this hardboiled tough guy. A new scene put back into the film, is Marv in his mom's house. This was cool I thought. They cut a line again though. And this one in a way changed the tone. Marv seems gets flustered in the film, almost comedically. Then hides things and the last thing he says to his mom is "I feel better than I have in years.." stylistically, while hiding it still. The book mentions it as a straight line, then leaves off with an innocent line. Mom - "There's something you not telling me" Marv - "Well okay. There is. I met a girl. Her name's Goldie. She's really nice". Second cut I really thought was wrong. This and the opening regret after finding her dead, when he lingers on the thought. Instead Robert took those out, and tossed in a new opening scene for Kevin at the beginning. Stylistic addition, and taking out some innocent character moments. I didn't like that.
Now's where Robert Rodriguez screws up. An entire page of Marv talking to himself, putting himself down non-humorously, while showing he's still got some brains. Why would you cut a slow, refreshing scene like this?? Rodriguez as a director, really doesn't know how to add much substance to his other films. But how much could he seriously miss in a direct book-to-film translation, of something he loves?! Next up is naked Nancy clothed. I really didn't like that change :lol The goons take Marv outside. He turns the situation around, and acts real cool in the film. In the book Marv doesn't keep his cool. And lines like "you don't feel bad no matter what" isn't a throwaway line for the book. Marv doesn't like it. It always felt like some jagged scene-to-scene/lead-to-lead detective story in the movie. I really like the book's fleshed out feel. One point they cut a trip from the church to the outside, with Marv explaining how shocked he is to do what he just did to a priest.
Now my least favorite cut of the entire thing. The rain. The rain starts up in the book panel by panel. Then leads right into a big dialogue about the rain. Marv saying how it makes him feel smarter, when everybody else is running away from the rain and get out of his way. Again he mentions a puzzle and how his brain spreads apart the pieces. Earlier he told a story about his friend who used to watch him do puzzles, and thought he was great at them, but said his friend must have been really dumb to be impressed. But now Marv starts talking about being scared. He says he's shaking and the rain's not the reason. That he wishes he could turn right back around and forget all of this. Says he's as good as dead. Then goes into saying he's more scared of dying than he is of living. Just a crap load of good stuff. All in the awesome looking rain, before he makes his decision of what to do. The film they move to his decision in the first scene. There was no progression, and for a while I thought that was the book as well. I was wrong. He says how Goldie made him feel like a white knight, a hero.. And says he owes her one. That he could die laughing if he does this right. But says he has to get this story straight first. Walks off saying he loves the rain. It helps him think. Robert here uses it for a cool looking walk in the rain and right to plot. The "more and more I'm liking the sound of it" and a shot to the Roark statue's head. Oh, and a couple of lines from Marv about who Roark is. The book builds him up and gives you an idea as to what kind of saint he's got the reputation of being. This was a pivotal scene too.
The stupid cuts keep coming though. Now you got Marv calmy explaining he's crazy, when he sees Goldie again after getting knocked out in Oldtown. He's tied up to the chair and mentions it's all his fault he's gone crazy. Forgot to take his pill, etc. Says he's probably in a gutter someplace. Again, real calmly, very far from crazy. Then logically explains that none of this matters if it isn't really happening. So when the Oldtown chicks start beating him he's laughing. The movie makes it seem like he laughs cause he's such a badass. Again, all RR doing style again. No wonder he's great for visually getting it across, he can really do style, but he even misses substance when it's placed right in front of his eyes. Later Marv throws out some more knowledge, from this apparently dumb guy. "Saying you can mess a gun up using the barrel, use the handle", while still tied up. Before hearing they used the name "Wendie" 10 or so seconds after another hit. Then an outburst from Marv after Wendy let's him know says he's going to die. About how he was too drunk to protect her, how he failed, how he's killing his way to the truth now. Till the sister Wendie falls back in regret and shock. Now in the film, everybody's hardboiled. She sticks a gun in his face and then brings it down. In the book, all the girl's feel guilty as hell, and downright shocked when he pulls off the ropes they tied him with. Marv becomes pretty respectable in this scene alone, where as the film skims by it, catching only a touch of the books impact. A really stupid cut, and a great scene he could have calmed the pace down for.
Next great scene in the book, cut from the film? Marv staring in the mirror at himself, saying he's nervous, scared.. then tells himself to think about dying. Think hard about it, because there's no way he will get out of this once he commits to it. He mentions everything that actually happens as he dies at the end. Then says good, now bury it in your belly while you still got work to do. Then he says he throws up a couple times before he's ready. Grabs his shit and goes. I mean, this is a serious visit at these girl's house. It's not a minute long segment. Then he disciplines himself not to call Wendy "Goldie" out of respect. She ran him over, shot him, pistol whipped him. A tough lady. And again he sticks to saying he's too dumb to put the whole picture together yet, but he's smart in not jumping to anything still. Then mentions how Goldie sits right next to him, but says not to get confused... Meanwhile, Wendy during this ride explains very logically how Marv owes Goldie nothing. But then Marv throws down another good argument as to why he does, her having given him something he didn't know existed, he says somberly.
More on the road stuff with Wendy and Marv. Which was a trip, not a scene in the car between Oldtown and the next lead. It's more akin to Sarah Conner, John, and The Terminator in T2. They sleep at a hotel in the book. Marv walks up to her in the middle of the night and tries to get in bed, she sends him back, and he apologizes and says he gets confused sometimes. Then goes back and monologues "I'm such a jerk". Again, all this good stuff. CUT! For time and Robert's confused pacing. He changes so many sincere lines into stylized lines. Marv's a really well rounded character, and I'm sure Mickey Rourke could have nailed all the other aspects of the character with a better director. Marv continues to flirt with Wendy, and plays the chase real smart. Moving away from a store fast, and taking shortcuts. As he leaves he says her eyes burn a hole through him, as if he were the only chance she had. It was like a post-Goldie love story that he never had, in the book. And she didn't keep a scowl on her face the whole time like she did in the movie. She just cooperates and agrees with everything Marv says. Then as he leaves she says the line "get him for me good", the only selfish thing she said during the trip. The only time she spoke up the entire trip. And Marv goes back to "I won't let you down Goldie. I promised". This time redeeming himself for the Goldie he lost earlier. A 'too late' type of love story that was lost in the film.
Then you got inner monologues of the Kevin fight. Before meeting him he explains how the nerves and fear crawl down in his belly. Says he becomes an animal of sorts. The movie just never shows the transformation. There's no pacing or time taken to slow down, show his doubts, his innocence, and transformation back into the killer when he has to. The book does, and it's a really great story too. I don't get why the hell Robert Rodriguez cut what he did. Marv lies to himself, and says he may as well enjoy the killing, since it's the only thing he's ever done well. Then goes about tying up the barbed wire, saying he just got the idea, and it was worth trying. Movie leaves all of this giving himself credit, demeaning himself, humbling inner-banter. In fact, you just get a few lines hear and there that mean nothing without the rest, that make it sound like just something cool to say. "I'm not very smart" or "I haven't taken my pills". Throwaway lines. Then Wendy shows up post-kevin, and gets smacked down. Again, a cool thing to say "It'll give you nightmares". But knowing Marv in the book, you know he did it out of care, not logic. Next think we see is a drunken Marv, who had to be drunk to even do the job.
By the end Marv is entirely noble in the book. And in the film he's left a 2D character. People said that everyone's a sinner in Sin City, and though that's true for about 85%, the book allows for a lot noble killers. Marv especially doesn't throw out punishment to anyone who doesn't deserve it. By the end, he is the hero, in the face of a corrupt world. And the cardinal is also done really stupidly in the film. He's revealed to be a pitiful man in the book, after the build up of being someone great. And Marv is shown as the noble one. The Cardinal meanwhile switches roles and becomes the insane, even though Marv was always told he was the maniac. It's a cool twist, as Marv is being screamed at "you MONSTER! MONSTER!" by a shrivel little cannibal man. Marv gives him a chance to explain himself though, says tell him the story of Kevin. The Cardinal just becomes even more pathetic as he does. And the last piece of information, the Cardinal joining in, is stated by Marv. Not the Cardinal. Again, the final block in building up Marv as a smart man despite his humbleness. Completing the detective story. The film misses all of this, with bits and pieces done right, but the overall tone done wrong. The film goes for a disgusting sick character for the Cardinal instead, and has him reveal another sick fact of Sin City. Adding to the dread of the film.
And then his present in the end, Goldie. Wendy comes back and sleeps with him, giving him all those good feelings he fought to respect. And the ending. The film goes through it like Marv's bored and cool. The book he is bored and cool because he mentioned earlier in the mirror to get used to it, to face it. He threw up over the way he would die already. He's not inhuman. He's very human, and he went through his grieving while looking in the mirror, in an awesome scene cut to get to the cool stuff. How you cut that scene as a serious director, I have no clue. And more little changes, the spitting up blood and smiling in a very cool manner in the film. Changed to a dazed and laughing "is that all you got you pansies?". Just like he said, he'd be dying laughing if he did this one thing right. The film never gets across that character. It's not Frank Miller's Sin City in the end, and it's a shame the man himself didn't do more to defend that stuff. It could have really been a perfect film, and I think it ends up just a very admirable average flick.
