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[Isak_Borg]

A willing member whose purpose to be in the party was to dismantle it.

EDIT: BTW, how would you know they were committing genocide, when many of the soldiers didn't know until after the fact? Hindsight is one hell of a thing.

Okay, let's just ignore the genocide.

Where were all these jews being shipped to?

What was happening to the jews when they disappeared?

Did no one think sending folks to labor camps wasn't and taking their property was kind of fucked?

 

[Deleted member 80556]

Okay, let's just ignore the genocide.

Where were all these jews being shipped to?

What was happening to the jews when they disappeared?

Did no one think sending folks to labor camps wasn't and taking their property was kind of fucked?

You don't seem to understand what I'm saying. I'm not ignoring the genocide. I'm saying that many soldiers did not know what was happening to the Jewish people.

Propaganda was heavily used. They thought they were being well treated. EDIT: The same propaganda said that the Jewish people were the ones at fault for all of Germany's economical problems, people had been essentially brainwashed.

 

[Darren870]

Is it better to die a decent human being or engage in horrendous acts to continue your existence?

I would rather die than associate myself with a group that was committing genocide.

Edit: He was still a willing member of the Nazi party.

Not sure why thinking Nazis need to die is such a controversial stance.

You do realize that the Nazi Party was a political party that rose to power during the depression in Germany. It was a very nationalistic party that wanted to take Germany back after the first World War. It helped people get jobs and fight communism. Obviously it went to shit, but not all members of the Nazi party were bad.

I'm pretty sure my Grandma would have been a member, among most my family members in Germany during that time.

 

[Isak_Borg]

You do realize that the Nazi Party was a political party that rose to power during the depression in Germany. It was a very nationalistic party that wanted to take Germany back after the first World War. It helped people get jobs and fight communism. Obviously it went to shit, but not all members of the Nazi party were bad.

I'm pretty sure my Grandma would have been a member, among most my family members in Germany during that time.

yes, I've read Mein Kampf and know extensively about the weimar republic and the state of Germany at the time.

I'm still unsympathetic.

 

[Deleted member 80556]

yes, I've read Mein Kampf and know extensively about the weimar republic and the state of Germany at the time.

I'm still unsympathetic.

Can you reply to my post as well? I'm actually interested in what you are thinking.

 

[Oersted]

I kind of blame my line of thought on the consideration that military service in my country is pretty much enforced, with the exception of a few people. I have no idea if this woman decided on her own volition to serve the Nazi regime or if women were made to have military work.

You were not forced to join and you were not forced to work at the camps. If you refused to do the latter, the worst thing that could happen is that they sent you somewhere entirely else to work.

Still, it makes me think whether or not she knew that the Nazis were systematically killing the Jewish people.

She worked at Auschwitz. And the "I didn't know" was a long holdup lie by germans to make the guilt more bearable.

You do realize that the Nazi Party was a political party that rose to power during the depression in Germany. It was a very nationalistic party that wanted to take Germany back after the first World War. It helped people get jobs and fight communism. Obviously it went to shit, but not all members of the Nazi party were bad.

I'm pretty sure my Grandma would have been a member, among most my family members in Germany during that time.

It started shit. Point in case fighting communism. They persecuted them. Killed them. Used them as scapegoats. Sent them to camps.

They were shit right out of the gate, don't try to rewrite history.

 

[Reverend Funk]

Defaulted to florida, (sort of) glad to be wrong for once

If she was a nazi then florida is the last place she would want to be.

 

[Deleted member 80556]

You were not forced to join and you were not forced to work at the camps. If you refused to do the latter, the worst thing that could happen is that they sent you somewhere entirely else to work.

She worked at Auschwitz. And the "I didn't know" was a long holdup lie by germans to make the guilt more bearable.

I see. I consider myself educated then. Thanks.

 

[TheBryanJZX90]

That doesn't make any sense.

...

When we talk about the systematic mass murder of around 6 million people, pretty much everything ends up symbolic. I don't see how that is not worth it.

It gets into some of the different reasons why it makes sense to imprison someone: general deterrence and specific deterrence don't really apply in this case.

Specific deterrence (let's keep this criminal in jail so she won't hurt any other people) isn't really applicable because she's too old to commit any more crimes. Plus, to repeat the specific crime she's guilty of, someone else would need to start another genocide and she would have to be in a position to help them. Not realistic.

General deterrence (punish her so other people are discouraged from committing the same crime for fear of being punished like her) could be a good reason for jail time. It would certainly be a good idea to discourage people from assisting future genocide in any fashion whatsoever, even operating radios. But as you'll see in threads regarding the death penalty, deterrence as an effect of punishment really requires the punishment to be certain and close in time. 70 years after the fact is pretty much the opposite of that.

So all you have left is retribution or the symbolism of the act. That's enough for some people, but not all.

 

[Darren870]

yes, I've read Mein Kampf and know extensively about the weimar republic and the state of Germany at the time.

I'm still unsympathetic.

You honestly don't sound much better then them...
Kill them all because they are all evil....

You were not forced to join and you were not forced to work at the camps. If you refused to do the latter, the worst thing that could happen is that they sent you somewhere entirely else to work.

She worked at Auschwitz. And the "I didn't know" was a long holdup lie by germans to make the guilt more bearable.

I'd like to see a source for this as this is heavily debated. Obviously she knew what was going on, but the fact they could ask to work somewhere else freely is debated.

It started shit. Point in case fighting communism. They persecuted them. Killed them. Used them as scapegoats. Sent them to camps.

They were shit right out of the gate, don't try to rewrite history.

I'm not trying to rewrite anything. The inner workings of the party were indeed shit, but the inner workings stayed inner. This isn't what the common people were lead to believe. People were hungry, people were poor, people were jobless. You could win votes by just giving people bread. Its no surprise people followed the party and joined. Just because a farmer joins a political party doesn't make them evil.

It doesn't change the original purpose of the party though. I suppose yes, you could say it was a shit party, I mean it went to shit by what was to come in regards to the war starting.

 

[Oersted]

70 years after the fact is pretty much the opposite of that.

Hasn't been relevant for over 30 years. Involved in murder/genocide? You can be persecuted, end of story.

At a certain point we're basically prosecuting people who had no choice. Was she supposed to NOT be a radio operator at that time and place? Can you really be complicit in a war crime for serving a mundane role you had no agency in?

Working at Auschwitz is not a warcrime. And yes, thats why the case is opened.

 

[Maximo]

Well one shes too friggen old to put in a prison and two if all she was a radio operator then who cares?

 

[Deleted member 80556]

You honestly don't sound much better then them...
Kill them all because they are all evil....

Honestly, if we follow his logic, all human kind should be killed. We have shown throughout all history that when it comes to it, we can be the most cruel creatures ever, without the bat of an eye, and some might even enjoy it. It's a big over generalization, dangerous to consider, even in hindsight.

I feel this kind of brain wash is happening in South America at the moment as well. A certain country seems to be causing unlawful incursion into another country to play victim, closes the borders, and plays the victim, claiming paramilitary forces are rampant in their side of the border. I feel there's a lot of resentment between both countries because of this. It will suck for whoever is in the wrong side of history. Neither of both sides are evil, nor are completely absolved for their actions.

EDIT: I'm still waiting for you to reply my post, Isak.

 

[Isak_Borg]

You honestly don't sound much better then them...
Kill them all because they are all evil....

I'm so sorry i don't think folks engaging, associating with or belonging to a group that committed genocide.

I think genocide is pretty up there on the fucked up spectrum.

 

[Dmax3901]

A willing member whose purpose to be in the party was to dismantle it.

EDIT: BTW, how would you know they were committing genocide, when many of the soldiers didn't know until after the fact? Hindsight is one hell of a thing.

The entire invasion of Russia was deliberately planned to be an war of extermination. Surround cities and starving them out. Hitler and the Wehrmacht planned for 30 million Russian civilian deaths before they'd even invaded.

My point being, the army knew what they were doing.

 

[Envelope]

Keep wasting time and money on this, Germany

 

[Eos]

That must be some sort of record
260k charges? damn

 

[Subpar Spatula]

Waste of time and money.

 

[cntr]

Okay, let's just ignore the genocide.

Where were all these jews being shipped to?

What was happening to the jews when they disappeared?

Did no one think sending folks to labor camps wasn't and taking their property was kind of fucked?

You know the scene in the The Great Dictator, Chaplin's satire of Hitler, where he's captured by the Nazi-equivalents? The "concentration camp" was depicted more like a prison, akin to what Japanese-Americans were imprisoned in. He literally escapes by stealing a uniform like it's no big deal. That's genuinely what people believed happened to the Jews until the war ended.

 

[Deleted member 80556]

The entire invasion of Russia was deliberately planned to be an war of extermination. Surround cities and starving them out. Hitler and the Wehrmacht planned for 30 million Russian civilian deaths before they'd even invaded.

My point being, the army knew what they were doing.

Yes, of course, but my point was on the privates, on the very low ranking soldiers. Unless I'm mistaken and these soldiers were aware of all the time of the Jewish genocide.

I hope I'm not coming of like a bad person, I'm very interested in World War 2 topics, and like to learn stuff like this.

 

[Isak_Borg]

You don't seem to understand what I'm saying. I'm not ignoring the genocide. I'm saying that many soldiers did not know what was happening to the Jewish people.

Propaganda was heavily used. They thought they were being well treated. EDIT: The same propaganda said that the Jewish people were the ones at fault for all of Germany's economical problems, people had been essentially brainwashed.

I'm not sure how you can say that individuals working in camps or organizing the round ups weren't aware of what was going on. They actively participated in what some cases was rounding up your neighbors, first putting them into ghettos and then into camps.

An aware individual would put two and two together and figure out what was happening like a lot of germans did. It's not like there weren't germans trying to help the jews by hiding them and helping them out of the country.

 

[Deleted member 80556]

I'm not sure how you can say that individuals working in camps or organizing the round ups weren't aware of what was going on. They actively participated in what some cases was rounding up your neighbors, first putting them into ghettos and then into camps.

An aware individual would put two and two together and figure out what was happening like a lot of germans did. It's not like there weren't germans trying to help the jews by hiding them and helping them out of the country.

I was not referring to Nazis working in the camps. We have stated already that they seemed to be aware of what was happening.

I'm referring to the everyday, low ranking soldier. If these helped Jews, as you yourself have admitted to have happened, do they deserve to die as well? Considering if they hadn't join, more Jews would have died?

 

[Oersted]

You know the scene in the The Great Dictator, Chaplin's satire of Hitler, where he's captured by the Nazi-equivalents? The "concentration camp" was depicted more like a prison, akin to what Japanese-Americans were imprisoned in. He literally escapes by stealing a uniform like it's no big deal. That's genuinely what people believed happened to the Jews until the war ended.

The Great Dictator was shot 1939-1940 in USA.
She worked 1944 at Auschwitz.

You may or may not notice a difference.

 

[cntr]

I'm not sure how you can say that individuals working in camps or organizing the round ups weren't aware of what was going on. They actively participated in what some cases was rounding up your neighbors, first putting them into ghettos and then into camps.

An aware individual would put two and two together and figure out what was happening like a lot of germans did. It's not like there weren't germans trying to help the jews by hiding them and helping them out of the country.

I think the post was in question of your absolute hate of anybody associated with the Nazis.

In addition to what I said my post above, you know why minorities are shoved into ghettos and slums? Because they can freely attack and brutalize everybody if you're hidden away and unable to say what you mean.

Look at how many movies depict Nazi brutality by depicting the ghettos, the beatings, and the mass murder. Schindler's List depicts Schindler's struggle beginning by him looking at that very scene. It's used in every Nazi and holocaust movie.

Germans didn't see that. The Allies specifically took Germans to concentration camps and former ghettos to impress on them the truth.

And we still do it today. Manufacturing is based on sweatshop virtual slavery, we bomb the Middle East because they're terrorists, not humans who're harded into terrorists by bombing, we interfere in foreign wars and establish dictatorships for political reasons. Yet how many people give a shit, how many people really know and understand what's going on? If you know, can you internalize them as human beings and not statistics and lines on a news report?

 

[Dmax3901]

Yes, of course, but my point was on the privates, on the very low ranking soldiers. Unless I'm mistaken and these soldiers were aware of all the time of the Jewish genocide.

I hope I'm not coming of like a bad person, I'm very interested in World War 2 topics, and like to learn stuff like this.

It would probably depend on where the soldier was based and what year you asked them, but the full extent was probably not known. The derision the average soldier had for their enemies was quite widespread. It's a cliche, but they really did see them as vermin, especially during Barbarossa.

 

[cntr]

The Great Dictator was shot 1939-1940 in USA.
She worked 1944 at Auschwitz.

You may or may not notice a difference.

I'm referring to what people in general thought of what was happening with the Jews.

 

[Deleted member 80556]

It would probably depend on where the soldier was based and what year you asked them, but the full extent was probably not known. The derision the average soldier had for their enemies was quite widespread. It's a cliche, but they really did see them as vermin, especially during Barbarossa.

Yeah, I think we can agree on the vermin part considering the propaganda that said that communism was brought upon Russia by Jews.

 

[Beefy]

Well one shes too friggen old to put in a prison and two if all she was a radio operator then who cares?

No one is too old for prison.

 

[Isak_Borg]

And we still do it today. Manufacturing is based on sweatshop virtual slavery, we bomb the Middle East because they're terrorists, not humans who're harded into terrorists by bombing, we interfere in foreign wars and establish dictatorships for political reasons. Yet how many people give a shit, how many people really know and understand what's going on? If you know, can you internalize them as human beings and not statistics and lines on a news report?

Being a marginalized individual living in situations you describe I get it but I'm not blaming the German people as a whole but participants in a political system that created this situation.

Everyone knew the jews, gypsies and gays were disappearing but no one asked where and didn't care because "I got mine, fuck you!".

Do I think all Nazi's are scum... Pretty much but I'm also a pretty big Gunter Grass fan and it's difficult to reconcile that at times.

I think we can't forgive what happened or make excuses for these individuals.

 

[Dead Man]

Symbols matter and people should be held accountable for their actions.

I don't care if she was the sweetest old lady in the world. She was part of a government and military that committed one of the worst atrocities in human history.

and as far as Claus Von Stauffenberg, Nazi party took care of that fuck.

Well there goes me giving a shit about the rest of your posts, bloody hell.

 

[Deleted member 80556]

Being a marginalized individual living in situations you describe I get it but I'm not blaming the German people as a whole but participants in a political system that created this situation.

Everyone knew the jews, gypsies and gays were disappearing but no one asked where and didn't care because "I got mine, fuck you!".

Do I think all Nazi's are scum... Pretty much but I'm also a pretty big Gunter Grass fan and it's difficult to reconcile that at times.

I think we can't forgive what happened or make excuses for these individuals.

What about the ones who helped saved lives, Jewish lives from concentration camps? EDIT: You said every single Nazi deserved to be dragged out and be shot. It's a yes or no question.

 

[Dmax3901]

As for this particular case it is very tricky and we obviously don't have all the details. Considering it's Auschwitz, I think every single person working there would've been aware of what was happening. And to be honest I don't understand how any human could possibly stand by and work an average day with that sort of thing happening all around them.

The fact that she was a woman might mean she was threatened into staying (perhaps she only realised where she was after starting work there), but this will be hard to determine.

I don't think age should enter into it if she willingly worked there.

 

[cntr]

Being a marginalized individual living in situations you describe I get it but I'm not blaming the German people as a whole but participants in a political system that created this situation.

Everyone knew the jews, gypsies and gays were disappearing but no one asked where and didn't care because "I got mine, fuck you!".

Do I think all Nazi's are scum... Pretty much but I'm also a pretty big Gunter Grass fan and it's difficult to reconcile that at times.

I think we can't forgive what happened or make excuses for these individuals.

Yeah, I get what you mean. I wouldn't forgive either.

I suppose my point is more that we shouldn't demonize the Nazis. They were human beings. And this is what human beings can fall to. We need to acknowledge that and ensure that humans never develop such beliefs again, not to make them abstract monsters. We'll never learn otherwise.

 

[Isak_Borg]

Yeah, I get what you mean. I wouldn't forgive either.

I suppose my point is more that we shouldn't demonize the Nazis. They were human beings. And this is what human beings can fall to. We need to acknowledge that and ensure that humans never develop such beliefs again, not to make them abstract monsters. We'll never learn otherwise.

As that Nazi lover Hannah Arrendt said the banality of evil.

Edit: For those not in the know I'm referring to Heidgegger who I think is probably responsible for contemporary thought and the father of post modernism.

 

[Deleted member 80556]

I give up. I really wanted to know your opinion on that question..

 

[cntr]

...

ok

 

[gutter_trash]

Nazi's sure do live a long time.

she must have been drinking from the wisely chosen cup

 

[Deleted member 80556]

...

ok

It's just that wishing people who helped others in times of need to die seems wrong.

 

[cntr]

It's just that wishing people who helped others in times of need to die seems wrong.

that was in response to isak's latest post, to be clear

 

[Deleted member 80556]

that was in response to isak's latest post, to be clear

Oh. Ohhh. Nevermind. I wasn't sure if it wasn't to my post. Sorry.

 

[Isak_Borg]

I give up. I really wanted to know your opinion on that question..

it was hyperbole.

I do think Nazi's that still roam around need to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

Were all Nazi's bad? COME ON MAN!

No, but I'm not going to let someone that worked at Auschwitz walk away because she's 90.

I'm a huge Heidegger fan and he was a Nazi supporter.

 

[Deleted member 80556]

You could have answered that question like an hour ago, with a yes or no. But thanks for your reply.

 

[Enron]

.....a radio operator?