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Gaijin-Age: Tips for Avoiding the Weeaboo Hole?

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Baryn

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Hey GAF, I'm currently teaching myself conversational Japanese via audio lessons and Rossetta Stone, and I've been getting more and more serious about it over the past year.

I want to do this right, with respect for the culture I'm learning about. Would some senior Japanese speakers give me some tips on avoiding the common pitfalls that would lead me to sound like an asshole?
 
1. Things are not better just because they're Japanese.
2. You cannot learn Japanese by watching anime. Those who think so are the first to quit.
3. You will never be Japanese, so don't try to pretend that you are.
 
Cheesemeister said:
1. Things are not better just because they're Japanese.
2. You cannot learn Japanese by watching anime. Those who think so are the first to quit.
3. You will never be Japanese, so don't try to pretend that you are.
Click to expand...

:lol :lol

Also getting a grasp of the culture, the real history and culture in English is a great starting point if you don't want to look like an asshat
 
Cheesemeister said:
1. Things are not better just because they're Japanese.
2. You cannot learn Japanese just by watching anime. Those who think so are the first to quit.
3. You will never be Japanese, so don't try to pretend that you are.
Click to expand...
Subtle edit. :D
But really, there's no "pitfall" as long as you're not a pretentious assbag. You're not a pretentious assbag, are you?

Honestly, I think the most troublesome thing right now is the whole "I'm the one in Japan/studying Japan/enjoying Japan for a 'good reason' crowd." :P
 
Cheesemeister said:
1. Things are not better just because they're Japanese.
2. You cannot learn Japanese by watching anime. Those who think so are the first to quit.
3. You will never be Japanese, so don't try to pretend that you are.
Click to expand...
Well said.
I can't count the anime Japanophile dorks in my Japanese class back in college who were around for semester 1 and maybe 2, but weren't seen after that.

(Not that there's anything wrong with liking anime and Japanese culture, but if you're gonna learn a language, wanting to imitate Naruto is the wrong motivation.)
 
What's the problem with wanting to learn Japanese to watch anime or be Naruto?

As long as you work hard and respect the culture, any motivation is enough if it really motivates you. I think the bigger problem is people that just expect to waltz in and pick it up because they play Final Fantasy and own a kimono.
 
RevenantKioku said:
Subtle edit. :D
But really, there's no "pitfall" as long as you're not a pretentious assbag. You're not a pretentious assbag, are you?

Honestly, I think the most troublesome thing right now is the whole "I'm the one in Japan/studying Japan/enjoying Japan for a 'good reason' crowd." :P
Click to expand...
So, J-snatch?

Y2Kev said:
What's the problem with wanting to learn Japanese to watch anime or be Naruto?

As long as you work hard and respect the culture, any motivation is enough if it really motivates you. I think the bigger problem is people that just expect to waltz in and pick it up because they play Final Fantasy and own a kimono.
Click to expand...
From what I gather (and I've heard this complaint from real Japanese-speaking gaijins on the web for years), those Narutophiles and their ilk generally aren't motivated or truly respectful. Aside from that, I agree that any reason to learn that isn't harmful is a good reason.
 
Petrarca said:
Why do people prefer teaching english in Japan? as suppose let say in Taiwan or Hongkong?
Click to expand...

I'd the say the whole anime and manga mecca of the world has something to do with it. Also, you never know when Taiwan is going to say something stupid and piss off China.
 
Y2Kev said:
What's the problem with wanting to learn Japanese to watch anime or be Naruto?
Click to expand...
Nothing wrong per se, but I guess the thought is you'll eventually move on from Naruto... whereas learning a language is more of a lifelong pursuit.
 
Hunter D said:
Why do people love Japan so much?
Click to expand...
Different reasons for everyone, but aside from from the obvious reasons of being a fan of Japanese videogames, I like their rich sense of respect, exquisite cuisine, and high technology. Plus the strange and often wonderful stuff you see in Japan that you would never see anywhere else fascinates me every time.
 
I don't get the point of the OP. Do you mean you don't want to come off as an asshole because you're worried about offending someone in Japanese, or because you're worried about saying something that's understandable but not all that natural? If it's the latter then that just comes with experience, so there's nothing you can really do about it other than converse with people and pick up their speaking habits and try them out yourself. Experiment, basically. If it's the former, well, right now you're worried about offending someone, so odds are you're smart enough not to say anything out of line. Assholes are assholes no matter what the language, so...

At any rate, the fact that you're a foreigner learning Japanese means you're going to get a lot of free passes if you goof up anyway. If you say something that you thought was okay but came off as rude, a lot of Japanese speakers aren't going to be offended just because you're a foreigner and you "don't know any better". Unless you say something like "I wanna bukakke your dog while your sister gets herself off with a cucumber." :lol So really, don't sweat it, just keep studying and keep at it.
 
Japan is interesting on the basic fact that it is a very well developed country with little European or Judeo-Christian influence. It also has tons of cool tech gear that everyone else might not see for years mixed with ancient architecture and customs and a different approach to design and esthetics (which I am particularily fond of).
 
Anyone who puts rules on how you can learn Japanese and for what purpose is an ass IMO.

Do whatever you want to learn and use it however you like. I did it for mainly for rpgs and then for everything else after and it worked just fine.


Also, I don't know wtf a weeaboo is and the word sounds lame but that PBF was great!

Hunter D said:
Why do people love Japan so much?
Click to expand...

You're on NeoGAF, which is primarily a gaming forum
 
Hunter D said:
Why do people love Japan so much?
Click to expand...

Its the only Asian country that has been well developed and not an awful dictatorship, for the last thirty years.

Though today you could find all sorts of other places like China, Taiwan, Korea, India, Thailand and others. I can see China becoming a lot more popular in the next few decades.
 
Baryn said:
Hey GAF, I'm currently teaching myself conversational Japanese via audio lessons and Rossetta Stone, and I've been getting more and more serious about it over the past year.

I want to do this right, with respect for the culture I'm learning about. Would some senior Japanese speakers give me some tips on avoiding the common pitfalls that would lead me to sound like an asshole?
Click to expand...

Go take some classes or at least find someone (a native or high level speaker) to converse with. I don't see how you can learn conversational Japanese by talking to yourself. :)



Cheesemeister said:
1. Things are not better just because they're Japanese.
2. You cannot learn Japanese by watching anime. Those who think so are the first to quit.
3. You will never be Japanese, so don't try to pretend that you are.
Click to expand...

IS TRUE IS TRUE

But you know what? Anime isn't a bad thing if you're trying to learn the language. It's good to watch TV and movies in a foreign language for reinforcement. It's just that you need to be careful not to end up talking like a re-re by picking up "cute" little mannerisms from cartoons and acting like a cartoon character. When I first started taking Japanese classes in '99, Rurouni Kenshin was big among the otaku nerds in the class (none of whom made it past the first semester), and one girl would try to add "de gozaru" to the end of everything. Yeah, she didn't last too long.

Hunter D said:
Why do people love Japan so much?
Click to expand...

Because it's a country in a region with culture different than the west, yet also has some of our own culture in a unique way, plus there's all the pop culture stuff like anime, games, j-pop, and the fashion trends that have been getting bigger and bigger over the last decade or so. This country offers some weird stuff, that's for sure, but it's very interesting.

I don't believe most young people are interested in traditional Japanese culture or even cuisine. The draw of Japan is all the weird shit and pop culture.
 
I remember I was interning at this architecture firm here last spring.

A lot of them give me this look and always wondered why someone my age (26 at the time) would want to get started into architecture now.

Someone who knows the pitfalls and drawbacks of a profession will probably wonder why you would be interested in studying whatever subject they are knowledgable of.



GAF is honestly the only place that I experience ANY Japanophilia. Perhaps that's why I linger around here so much.
 
GenericPseudonym said:
Its the only Asian country that has been well developed and not an awful dictatorship, for the last thirty years.

Though today you could find all sorts of other places like China, Taiwan, Korea, India, Thailand and others. I can see China becoming a lot more popular in the next few decades.
Click to expand...

Definitely this too. South Korea aside, I don't know if I'd want to try living in other Asian countries. I'd love to visit them all though.
 
Bebpo said:
Anyone who puts rules on how you can learn Japanese and for what purpose is an ass IMO.

Do whatever you want to learn and use it however you like. I did it for mainly for rpgs and then for everything else after and it worked just fine.
Click to expand...

You don't want to use what you learned for your career?
 
Lyte Edge said:
Go take some classes or at least find someone (a native or high level speaker) to converse with. I don't see how you can learn conversational Japanese by talking to yourself. :)
Click to expand...
I don't have enough confidence yet to even order sushi from my sushi place, where I'm a semi-regular, heh.

Once I feel like I can talk enough to ask a decent variety of questions and give basic answers, I will use this service: http://www.language-exchanges.org/

If you're self-teaching the basics in like I am, in any language VISIT THIS SITE. It's essentially a language teaching matchmaking service, where you are placed with someone in your own boat, but with the opposite language knowledge.

Right now I'm pretty good with basic, present-tense grammar. I can ask:

-What is your name?
-Are you rich/poor?
-Where are you from?
-Would you like to eat/drink with me (for various meals and times of day)?

I can also order various foods, ask directions, basically tourist stuff. I guess it doesn't make for great or even plausible conversation!

Of course, if there are any Gaffers who have an appreciation for helping a sincere fledgling, my skype name is brianblakely, just PM me to set up a time.
 
I do believe watching anime and reading manga have their uses, in a class room setting it is rare to hear very plain or informal speech. I agree it would be folly to think that you could do little more than simple re-enforcement with it, you cannot learn a language by simply watching TV.

I'd also say that it's not just learning how to speak/read/write etc. but an entirely new value system and the easiest way to look like an asshole is to ignore that.
 
Baryn said:
I don't have enough confidence yet to even order sushi from my sushi place, where I'm a semi-regular, heh.
Click to expand...

Why not? Give it a try, attempt a little conversation. Who knows? You might gain yourself a new friend and conversation partner.

Right now I'm pretty good with basic, present-tense grammar. I can ask:

-What is your name?
-Are you rich/poor?
-Where are you from?
-Would you like to eat/drink with me (for various meals and times of day)?

I can also order various foods, ask directions, basically tourist stuff. I guess it doesn't make for great or even plausible conversation!
Click to expand...

That's great, but is there a a reason why you can't find classes to attend?

Somnid said:
I do believe watching anime and reading manga have their uses, in a class room setting it is rare to hear very plain or informal speech. I agree it would be folly to think that you could do little more than simple re-enforcement with it, you cannot learn a language by simply watching TV.
Click to expand...

I don't know...if you learned all your slang from comic books, you'd probably sound like a dork.

I'd also say that it's not just learning how to speak/read/write etc. but an entirely new value system and the easiest way to look like an asshole is to ignore that.
Click to expand...

That's really only necessary if you're living abroad, however learning about culture and proper manners should also come from study a foreign language.

Also when living in Japan, there's the matter of adapting to the language style of whatever region you're living in. People speak a little differently everywhere. I have trouble with Kanazawa-ben where I live and often have difficulty understanding what my in-laws are saying. :lol
 
Somnid said:
I'd also say that it's not just learning how to speak/read/write etc. but an entirely new value system and the easiest way to look like an asshole is to ignore that.
Click to expand...

I have met some people who speak great Japanese but do not know how to communicate in Japanese.. it is really odd to see in action.
 
Hunter D said:
Why do people love Japan so much?
Click to expand...

the arcades

and does Rossetta Stone actually work? I always see the commercials on TV for it and always wondered because learning Italian would be pretty cool so I can talk more with some relatives.
 
Baryn said:
Would some senior Japanese speakers give me some tips on avoiding the common pitfalls that would lead me to sound like an asshole?
Click to expand...

-Never correct anyone else's Japanese unless you are asked to do so.
-Don't repeat phrases learned from anime. Imagine how annoying it would be if you ran into a Japanese guy who learned his English from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
-Don't talk like you're yakuza.
-After waking up each morning, repeat the phrase "Sometimes the English dub is as good or better than the original Japanese" five times.
-Realize that Japan, like every other country, has some awesome aspects to it and some really shitty ones.
-Never, ever purchase a katana. If you do, absolutely do not have your photo taken while brandishing it and standing in front of a wind machine.
 
tokkun said:
-Don't repeat phrases learned from anime. Imagine how annoying it would be if you ran into a Japanese guy who learned his English from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
Click to expand...

annoying? that would be awesome!
 
One of the most important things about learning any language is to speak it. So, speak it. The second most important thing is understanding the culture and not just in a general manner.

Watching Anime, TV DOES help in the early stages. Listening skills are developed by listening, and if you don't have a Japanese person around all the time, this is the best way to do it. The thing is you have to watch with the intent of listening, pay careful attention to the Japanese, don't just read the subtitles.
 
Lyte Edge said:
That's great, but is there a a reason why you can't find classes to attend?
Click to expand...
It's kind of no-loss investment, as I can learn these early lessons for free through the grace of the Internet. Also, I work from an office and from home on two different business ventures - all told, about 12 hours a day and I'm pooped. I can practice and learn while I'm working via audio. Once I reach my limit, I want to look for classes (or a girlfriend generous with her time!), but for now this is working.
 
I can only speak from personal experience, but if you're in Japan, hanging out with as many Japanese-speaking friends as possible really helped me. I made the mistake of exclusively hanging out with English-speaking friends the first few years of being in Japan, and my Japanese suffered accordingly. I'm not saying don't hang out with your English-speaking brethren, but conversing in Japanese as much as possible helps more then anything.

As far as looking like an ass, Japanese seems to have a high tolerance for gaijin-related language gaffs and cultural faux pas. Hell, Madonna still gets away with calling herself "Madonna-san" on TV in Japan.

Somnid said:
I do believe watching anime and reading manga have their uses, in a class room setting it is rare to hear very plain or informal speech. I agree it would be folly to think that you could do little more than simple re-enforcement with it, you cannot learn a language by simply watching TV.

I'd also say that it's not just learning how to speak/read/write etc. but an entirely new value system and the easiest way to look like an asshole is to ignore that.
Click to expand...

I'd agree that anime/games do have their place in learning Japanese. While the dialog may be inapplicable to day-to-day conversation, the fragmented and often overly expressive talking style may be easier to pick up certain words and phrases. Personally, I built my Japanese reading skill by reading manga like Doremon with the kana over the kanji.
 
Linkzg said:
and does Rossetta Stone actually work? I always see the commercials on TV for it and always wondered because learning Italian would be pretty cool so I can talk more with some relatives.
Click to expand...
Overall, it is an excellent cornerstone aided by websites and audio lessons, but because you have to give it your full attention, it takes up as much time as classes.

I've used it a little for Japanese, but about 50 hours for Korean. As far as learning and making it stick, Rosetta Stone is great; I haven't used my Korean at all in nearly 5 months and remember nearly everything, which I can't say for audio lessons. I need other websites to learn what the hell I am really saying though, simply because of the nature of the immersion learning system.
 
I lived in Thailand for nearly a year and only knew a couple of short phrases before going. I picked up pretty good conversation skills with a handy English-Thai dictionary, the patience of lots of Thai friends and kindly strangers, and of course an eagerness to learn anything I could. Getting breakfast or buying a bus ticket could be a lesson. Of course, most of them wanted to practice English, so it was a constant back-and-forth in trying to steer the conversation Thai-ward.

It amazed me to see Westerners who had been living there for years, maybe married to a Thai, with less language ability than me. If I was going to live there for any length of time, the respectful thing to do seemed to be to pick up as much of their language (and cultural nuances) as possible (I'm looking at you, Latinos here in Koreatown!!).

My point, at long last, is that immersing yourself in the culture is a good way to learn. If you do end up going to Japan, don't hang out with expats or tourists or whatever. Make Japanese friends and soak it all in.
 
Len Dontree said:
It amazed me to see Westerners who had been living there for years, maybe married to a Thai, with less language ability than me. If I was going to live there for any length of time, the respectful thing to do seemed to be to pick up as much of their language (and cultural nuances) as possible (I'm looking at you, Latinos here in Koreatown!!).
Click to expand...

This happens in every country, it's not just limited to Thailand, or Japan, or China, IMO. It also happens in Canada and America. People just do what's convenient for them, and if not learning the native language is too much of a hassle and their wife/husband can speak it perfectly, they're not going to bother. I know way too many guys in Japan who are married to Japanese women who have great English and thus don't need to bother learning Japanese... and I also know a bunch of girls in Canada who are married to Canadians, and know almost zero English because their husbands can take care of them.
 
Baryn said:
I want to do this right, with respect for the culture I'm learning about. Would some senior Japanese speakers give me some tips on avoiding the common pitfalls that would lead me to sound like an asshole?
Click to expand...

Other people have covered tips for learning Japanese, so I'll throw in a ":lol" cultural hint.

I didn't know this until I had been studying for a while and it was one of the odder bits I learned. You DO NOT put soy sauce on your steamed rice. But if you put a raw egg yoke on your steamed rice, it's ok to put soy sauce on that. :lol
 
Vaporak said:
Other people have covered tips for learning Japanese, so I'll throw in a ":lol" cultural hint.

I didn't know this until I had been studying for a while and it was one of the odder bits I learned. You DO NOT put soy sauce on your steamed rice. But if you put a raw egg yoke on your steamed rice, it's ok to put soy sauce on that. :lol
Click to expand...

uhhh that isn't exactly true.. but most times people soy sauce on the food they eat with their rice. the be thing is do not drown anything.. and that includes sushi as well
 
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