#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014

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I'm sorry, but this would not fly in any other context. Literally, substitute "gamers" with any other broad category of people and think about how you feel about someone making shotgun insults about them.

You understand that this critique is being made by a gamer, right? That the entire first section of the article is feeling despair at how people perceive the subculture that she is a part of? People using this kind of hyperbole to describe groups they are part of is extraordinarily common. Someone from the outside telling a player on a team sport that his team sucks because no one is working hard enough is an asshole; someone from the inside saying that is probably a coach. It's still not ideal (and I criticized Leigh's article about this upthread a ways) but it's a very different thing for someone to complain about their own group than about a foreign one.

The framing being used by people who are really mad about this article all seem to have this undertone that gamers are being shamed by "the women," thereby implicitly confirming the idea that some people really can't imagine "woman" and "gamer" applying to the same person. People make generalizations like this about "gamers" in GAF threads all the time, but since the people doing so are frequently expected to be men and they aren't talking about issues of social justice, nobody gets too worked up about it.
 
Who kicked a bucket of shit, exactly? Was it Jenn Frank, who wrote an extremely inoffensive piece for the Guardian and was immediately deluged with threats and harassment? Any of the other women who were rolled into the absurd conspiracy charts and attacked on twitter just for knowing other people who are vaguely involved? It can't possibly be a justifiable position to say that people can avoid 4chan's wrath by not "kicking the bucket of shit" if you define that as "saying anything 4chan doesn't like anywhere on the internet."

"kicked a bucket of ****" was a reference to arguing with trolls on social media. IF you engage, you will get covered in it. Doesn't make it right, but C'est la vie. Use the authorities. One of my favorite quotes is

"Never argue with an idiot because they will drag you down to their level and beat you down with experience."

I find it incredibly applicable. Trolls will drag you into it (it being shit). It is quite literally like arguing with a 5 year old. You might be right but you aren't going to win without authority (like being a parent.)

As to the threats... as stated before, any threats should be reported to the police. Threats are assault on your person or property, and they will be investigated. If you find you are not getting help from your local authorities then you go up the chain.

I know I'm skipping over most of what you said, but it's hard to engage with this when your premise is that harassment is actually meaningless, and that if someone's getting harassed we can tell that it's their fault because it would stop if they ignored it. I don't accept this premise and I think recognizing the effect and dynamics of online harassment is important to actually draw conclusions about this subject.
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I never said it was their fault. I said engaging is a choice. When someone is harrasing you there are a few proper ways to deal with it, and none of them involve engaging with the troll. This is the meaning behind "don't feed the trolls." It is an appeal to maturity to deal with it with the systems and guidelines of that particular community. Lashing out at the troll doesn't fix anything, it destroys conversation and it makes moderators jobs more difficult.
 
You understand that this critique is being made by a gamer, right? That the entire first section of the article is feeling despair at how people perceive the subculture that she is a part of? People using this kind of hyperbole to describe groups they are part of is extraordinarily common. Someone from the outside telling a player on a team sport that his team sucks because no one is working hard enough is an asshole; someone from the inside saying that is probably a coach. It's still not ideal (and I criticized Leigh's article about this upthread a ways) but it's a very different thing for someone to complain about their own group than about a foreign one.

And by that very rationale her opinion is no more valid than anyone's else, so why give her so much credence in this particular instance?
 
But where is the evidence that anything other then moderation can fix online harassment? You are describing sentiment, and I agree you dont go telling Jenn that it is her fault that she is getting hate tweets. But do you honestly think people responding to a lot of these nutto's actually help's and if so what can you point to in any substantial way of it helping?

Signalling that this harmful behavior is not okay to others ensure that other participants and bystanders are made aware that such a behavior is not acceptable. This will make sure that in future contexts and encounters with bigotry, they hopefully speak up or make sure that harassment or even casual bigotry are not okay.

also, Alexander wrote an easy guide on how to handle online harassment: http://leighalexander.net/but-what-can-be-done-dos-and-donts-to-combat-online-sexism/

And here's a more academic approach to cyber bullying: http://www.michiganlawreview.org/assets/pdfs/108/3/citron.pdf Here are some quotes:

Although women targeted online are not physically confronted by their harassers like employees subject to sexually harassing comments at the water cooler, women working online arguably comprise a captive audience. Women have no means to avoid cyber attacks on their blogs and sites unless they shut them down or use passwords that exclude the uninvited.

Women also cannot escape harassment on third-party sites because employers and social contacts will likely see them and ask them about the harassment. In that sense, cyber attacks are unavoidable. Women should not be forced to forgo online opportunities to avoid cyber harassment. In much the same way that society today would not trivialize a supervisor’s decision to display a doctored naked photograph of a female subordinate, it should not ignore rape threats that terrorize victims and force them to close their income-generating blogs. Society suffers a great loss when it loses women from the online marketplace and discourse.

Another approach asserts that women can combat cyber harassment with counterspeech. In this view, women should retaliate against their attackers rather than playing the “victim.” It is, however, specious to insist on cyberharassment’s triviality because women can later respond to it. Women’s subsequent response cannot return them to the position that they were in before they suffered economic and emotional harm. Counterspeech may be unable to dissipate an employer’s belief that the targeted women attract negative attention.

And it cannot erase rape threats and false suggestions that women harbor rape fantasies from the minds of targeted women and third parties inspired by the postings.
 
One thing I've noticed since starting out a few months ago, is the people that are accused of corruption and breaches of ethics are not the people actually doing these things.

A lot of the bad stuff is coming from people just starting out, that aren't qualified, or have long been on the fringes of the industry.

The people being accused certainly need to be asked very specific questions, but overall the corruption and bad journalism is coming from the bottom feeders.
 
Wait wait wait wait wait.

Here is what you said: "Why did they essentially post hatchet job against him that presumed guilt before innocence? Because it fit the narrative."

AND YOU DIDN'T EVEN READ THE ARTICLE?

I've seen that exact png posted so many times by folks who have no idea what they were talking about, but this takes the cake.

I read the article, read the last page.
 
And by that very rationale her opinion is no more valid than anyone's else, so why give her so much credence in this particular instance?

there's a middle ground between "giving her credence" and "proclaiming the end times and calling down god's wrath upon her head" that i feel most people distraught about gamergate would be well advised to explore
 
Signalling that this harmful behavior is not okay to others ensure that other participants and bystanders are made aware that such a behavior is not acceptable. This will make sure that in future contexts and encounters with bigotry, they hopefully speak up or make sure that harassment or even casual bigotry are not okay.

also, http://leighalexander.net/but-what-can-be-done-dos-and-donts-to-combat-online-sexism/

Again though, this is sentiment. I'm not actually seeing these slogans actually help with the problem. I'm not seeing youtube or twitter comments get better, and I'm not seeing anything in the gamegat tags or any other tag that tells me talking against these people works. You can say it helps them, but I looked at jenns comments and I still see positive stuff to her, but there was some shitty tweets to, and I saw people(her friends I'm guessing) defend her as well, yet she still is saying she is bowing out. So again, I'm not seeing how anything other then moderation will win the battle.
 
also what is this nonsense about "engaging" or "feeding" the trolls? i don't see people like jenn frank or mattie brice responding directly to the truly awful shit that gets slung at them. they argue with their critics, sure, but that's different.

if the threshold of feeding trolls for a woman is "existing in public" then we have a huge fucking problem
 
I'm sorry, but this would not fly in any other context. Literally, substitute "gamers" with any other broad category of people and think about how you feel about someone making shotgun insults about them.

But... we see this all the time, and it's totally acceptable. We see it even with categories or terms that people in general need to be way more careful with than "gamer".

I guess the really easy example is Chris Rock's "Niggas vs Black People" bit. He stopped doing it because racists misappropriated it, not because he was being criticized for racism. But in general it's really, really common to hear people who identify as a member of some racial group speak in generalities about that group or problems with the group as a whole; they don't get criticized for this to nearly the extent that outsiders do because it's really obvious that they're in a position to be aware that #notallX.

This is even less problematic when we're not talking about the sorts of characteristics that in the US we consider suspect classifications. People generalize about political affiliation constantly. This is often seen as stupid, when they get it badly wrong, but rarely is it taken to be very offensive, and certainly not when people are speaking about their own affiliation.

Nobody bats an eye when hobbyists speak in this sort of way about people in their own hobby community.
 
there's a middle ground between "giving her credence" and "proclaiming the end times and calling down god's wrath upon her head" that i feel most people distraught about gamergate would be well advised to explore
When discussion of that article comes up I just feel like people saw the incindiary title and went with it without reading or attempting to understand the point she was trying to make, yes it could have done better maybe, but still.
 
also what is this nonsense about "engaging" or "feeding" the trolls? i don't see people like jenn frank or mattie brice responding directly to the truly awful shit that gets slung at them. they argue with their critics, sure, but that's different.

if the threshold of feeding trolls for a woman is "existing in public" then we have a huge fucking problem

I dunno about Mattie, but Jenn isnt feeding the trolls, however a lot of her followers were, read the fights between them. 1 nasty comment turned into about 8 nasty comments because they were arguing with her followers. So they effectively made 1 nasty comment turn into 8 because 7 others came from arguing with her followers.
 
Pretty good video (all information put together by a woman if that really matters) detailing the issues with the IGF, with sources. I am unsure about the timeline of when the video was made, as the reader alleges that Zoe deliberately dossed TFYC (which I believe not to be the case) but aside from that it goes into some fairly well researched and substantiated claims.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgW5NRUfs44&list=UUVt7ujK-9TT9KByzL9g_2QQ#t=147

And no, it is not Internet aristocrat! it talks about allegations from that 5 guys ex boyfriend, corroborating some information, but mainly making allegations that the IGF is corrupt based on nepotism, it touches on claims of negligence and unprofessional conduct, essentially not giving people who aren't in the in crowd with the owner, a fair shake. I am unsure about how much of the video I need to summarize to avoid breaking one of the rules, but this kind of thing is what investigative journalist should be doing and I am happy to discuss the specifics of the video.
 
also what is this nonsense about "engaging" or "feeding" the trolls? i don't see people like jenn frank or mattie brice responding directly to the truly awful shit that gets slung at them. they argue with their critics, sure, but that's different.

if the threshold of feeding trolls for a woman is "existing in public" then we have a huge fucking problem

We have a huge fucking problem.
 
Pretty good video (all information put together by a woman if that really matters) detailing the issues with the IGF, with sources. I am unsure about the timeline of when the video was made, as the reader alleges that Zoe deliberately dossed TFYC (which I believe not to be the case) but aside from that it goes into some fairly well researched and substantiated claims.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgW5NRUfs44&list=UUVt7ujK-9TT9KByzL9g_2QQ#t=88

And no, it is not Internet aristocrat!

Ah yes, that video. The one that says it's brought to you buy Zoe Quinn's vagina in the opening.
 
Again though, this is sentiment. I'm not actually seeing these slogans actually help with the problem. I'm not seeing youtube or twitter comments get better, and I'm not seeing anything in the gamegat tags or any other tag that tells me talking against these people works. You can say it helps them, but I looked at jenns comments and I still see positive stuff to her, but there was some shitty tweets to, and I saw people(her friends I'm guessing) defend her as well, yet she still is saying she is bowing out. So again, I'm not seeing how anything other then moderation will win the battle.

I agree that it seems like an insurmountable problem, but the reason why you aren't seeing any effects of people speaking up or supporting the victim right now is because of the structural and cultural perceptions of online harassment that need solid and thorough vigilance to be altered. There are way too many people who still think that the Internet doesn't have an effect on real life, that the Internet is the Wild West and anything is allowed there, that "boys will be boys", that we cannot do anything against online bigots so why bother, etc. And by the cultural and structural perceptions on online harassment, the significance and the effects and the accountability of online harassment

I agree it is a tough problem. But I still think that we as a culture have a lot to learn about how to act on the Internet and educating and informing will go a long way in the future to curb the prevalence of online harassment.
 
there's a middle ground between "giving her credence" and "proclaiming the end times and calling down god's wrath upon her head" that i feel most people distraught about gamergate would be well advised to explore

I think eight or so articles all deciding 'gamer' was over, dead etc all dropping at the same time didn't really impress people Versus making them raise their eybrows quizzically.
 
Who was the guy that claimed Zoe Quinn sexually harassed or assaulted him? And then Phil Fish tore into him and implied it was true? I saw it in one of these videos I think but I'd rather see it for myself, anybody know what I'm talking about?
 
also what is this nonsense about "engaging" or "feeding" the trolls? i don't see people like jenn frank or mattie brice responding directly to the truly awful shit that gets slung at them. they argue with their critics, sure, but that's different.

if the threshold of feeding trolls for a woman is "existing in public" then we have a huge fucking problem

This isn't what I have been claiming. Everyone has the right to express their own opinion, and in this age of social media that right is incredibly powerful (and less so at the same time).

Unfortunately in this free exchange of ideals you WILL get hate from someone. As an adult you should be mature enough to ignore and/or use authorities to deal with trolls.

Here let me just use an example to clarify:

Writing article/producing video on a subject: not engaging a troll

Responding to some dip**** who said you look like a whale: engaging a troll

Sorry for any confusion this may have caused. I thought it was pretty clear that engaging trolls was a reactionary response to said troll's comment, but I guess not.

Maybe I am confused on what a "troll" is anymore. From my understanding it was someone who replied to someone with thought-diahrea(edit: in an attempt to piss them off)....?
 
I think eight or so articles all deciding 'gamer' was over, dead etc all dropping at the same time didn't really impress people Versus making them raise their eybrows quizzically.

then why is leigh's piece the one i see most constantly referenced? why does nobody address the real points of any of those articles? why are women the only ones being made to feel so unsafe that they can't continue with their careers any longer?
 
then why is leigh's piece the one i see most constantly referenced? why does nobody address the real points of any of those articles? why are women the only ones being made to feel so unsafe that they can't continue with their careers any longer?

Man I hate to reply so fast but this is a great point:

Why is it that they feel unsafe? Is it because they do not understand what actions they can take... or is it that those actions produce NO results?

If it is the former, then awareness should be focused around actions that can be taken to protect themselves (i.e. contacting moderation and/or the police)

If it is the latter, then maybe we need to be discussing legislation to make online bullying more enforced/enforceable.
 
then why is leigh's piece the one i see most constantly referenced? why does nobody address the real points of any of those articles? why are women the only ones being made to feel so unsafe that they can't continue with their careers any longer?
I think it's a coincidence that people who claim to be concerned about industry-wide issues are only targeting women in order to force them out of the industry. I mean, *I* love women.
 
then why is leigh's piece the one i see most constantly referenced? why does nobody address the real points of any of those articles? why are women the only ones being made to feel so unsafe that they can't continue with their careers any longer?

I can't attest to what you may or may not see, or the universality of it.
 
Unfortunately in this free exchange of ideals you WILL get hate from someone. As an adult you should be mature enough to ignore and/or use authorities to deal with trolls.

This is the problem right here. No one, adult or otherwise, should have to endure the level of harassment some people have endured. It's easy to preach about thick skin, but when you have to endure constant verbal harassment, death threats, rape threats, people calling up your employer and coworker to tell them what a terrible person you are, people implying that they know where you live, etc. it's not that easy. I consider myself to have fairly thick skin, and I'm not going to be bothered by a singular moron calling me names on the internet, but I would not be able to endure that level of constant harassment.

And while I think the people doing these attacks are an extreme vocal minority, that doesn't really help the person being attacked by them.

So I don't begrudge the people who have left the industry over these attacks. I'm sad that they feel that is necessary, but never having been in their shoes I can't tell them their choice is the wrong one.
 
I agree that it seems like an insurmountable problem, but the reason why you aren't seeing any effects of people speaking up or supporting the victim right now is because of the structural and cultural perceptions of online harassment that need solid and thorough vigilance to be altered. There are way too many people who still think that the Internet doesn't have an effect on real life, that the Internet is the Wild West and anything is allowed there, that "boys will be boys", that we cannot do anything against online bigots so why bother, etc. And by the cultural and structural perceptions on online harassment, the significance and the effects and the accountability of online harassment

I agree it is a tough problem. But I still think that we as a culture have a lot to learn about how to act on the Internet and educating and informing will go a long way in the future to curb the prevalence of online harassment.

I agree, but sometimes it's hard for me to see these people on twitter who claim to be Jenn's friend, then get in fights with twitter trolls, and you see the insults keep getting pulled out time and time again, with the followers, yet the followers keep fucking going cause they want to win the argument. It's like the fuck, cant you tell you just were part of her getting insulted 50 more times(exaggeration)? I dunno, we cant be telling Jenn how to deal with it, but I do think me saying, hey follower you picking fights on Jenns behalf isnt helping matters, on twitter, is pretty accurate.
 
Debating how people should read Alexander's blog post is pointless now. People read it and it turns out, in large numbers, people didn't like the Luigi knit hat losers sucking up what ever is fed to them imagery. (paraphrased). The cat's out of the bag now and it helped to snowball the whole situation.

I suppose you could write up a big post about how all those people are wrong to have those feelings about it, if you think that would help. Telling angry people they're wrong to be angry has never had any success, so maybe it's due.
 
I'm gonna post this again because I think it's really important and might have been buried on the last page: http://kotaku.com/about-gamergate-1630707501

I agree with everything Totilo says there, but he's being more than a little disingenuous. He posted a comment a few days ago on Kotaku where he said he didn't like referring to himself as a gamer and how there was an open debate regarding removing 'gamer' references in Kotaku's masthead.

He's very wishy-washy. He did the same last year (or the year before?) when he dismissed discussing ethics/corruption in game journalism as being unimportant only to come around a few days later when there was some backlash to his comments.
 
Pretty good video (all information put together by a woman if that really matters) detailing the issues with the IGF, with sources. I am unsure about the timeline of when the video was made, as the reader alleges that Zoe deliberately dossed TFYC (which I believe not to be the case) but aside from that it goes into some fairly well researched and substantiated claims.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgW5NRUfs44&list=UUVt7ujK-9TT9KByzL9g_2QQ#t=147

And no, it is not Internet aristocrat! it talks about allegations from that 5 guys ex boyfriend, corroborating some information, but mainly making allegations that the IGF is corrupt based on nepotism, it touches on claims of negligence and unprofessional conduct, essentially not giving people who aren't in the in crowd with the owner, a fair shake. I am unsure about how much of the video I need to summarize to avoid breaking one of the rules, but this kind of thing is what investigative journalist should be doing and I am happy to discuss the specifics of the video.

Not Internet Aristocrat! Just opens with the same opening and clearly aping his style, right down to relying on half truths and some flat out lies. I mean, it makes a big deal out of Extrasolar, especially at the end. A game that got a nomination in a category for "new idea" type games. Guess the indie cabal isn't powerful enough to ensure the winners.
 
It was also the most vitriolic.

By far, in particular:
It’s young men queuing with plush mushroom hats and backpacks and jutting promo poster rolls. Queuing passionately for hours, at events around the world, to see the things that marketers want them to see. To find out whether they should buy things or not. They don’t know how to dress or behave. Television cameras pan across these listless queues, and often catch the expressions of people who don’t quite know why they themselves are standing there.
 
I agree that it seems like an insurmountable problem, but the reason why you aren't seeing any effects of people speaking up or supporting the victim right now is because of the structural and cultural perceptions of online harassment that need solid and thorough vigilance to be altered. There are way too many people who still think that the Internet doesn't have an effect on real life, that the Internet is the Wild West and anything is allowed there, that "boys will be boys", that we cannot do anything against online bigots so why bother, etc. And by the cultural and structural perceptions on online harassment, the significance and the effects and the accountability of online harassment

I agree it is a tough problem. But I still think that we as a culture have a lot to learn about how to act on the Internet and educating and informing will go a long way in the future to curb the prevalence of online harassment.

One of the things I think should be very important for parents in the digital age is to teach kids appropriate netiquette. Treat strangers in the internet the same way one would treat strangers in meatspace.
 
But where is the evidence that anything other then moderation can fix online harassment?

I don't think we can fix it, exactly, but applying lessons from other situations can be helpful. Acting with solidarity, taking clear stands against the positions and behavior of these people, combined with moderation (where possible), reports to other authorities (where that'll accomplish anything), and taking steps to actually remove the positive reinforcement the harassers receive can be more effective than any one response alone.

re, any threats should be reported to the police.

The problem is that this doesn't actually have a positive impact. Twitter has very clearly demonstrated that they have no interest in dealing with harassment and abuse. And Jenn actually tweeted about the shrugs she got out of calling the police about the threats she received.

I said engaging is a choice. When someone is harrasing you there are a few proper ways to deal with it, and none of them involve engaging with the troll.

The reasons you've provided for this, though, are that it encourages more harassment (not always true, and the available alternative to "engage" isn't necessarily "ignore") and that it's more "mature" (says who?) Without a concrete reason that shows it actually being beneficial, this just sets up another way to kick victims of harassment while they're already down.

I agree, but sometimes it's hard for me to see these people on twitter who claim to be Jenn's friend, then get in fights with twitter trolls, and you see the insults keep getting pulled out time and time again, with the followers, yet the followers keep fucking going cause they want to win the argument.

This is definitely a problem. A number of people who discuss issues of gender, race, etc. on twitter have written blog posts specifically talking about how unhelpful it is when people "on their side" aggravate fights with trolls and harassers on their feed, especially given Twitter's default behavior of notifying everyone all the way back in a reply chain.
 
I agree with everything Totilo says there, but he's being more than a little disingenuous. He posted a comment a few days ago on Kotaku where he said he didn't like referring to himself as a gamer and how there was an open debate regarding removing 'gamer' references in Kotaku's masthead.

He's very wishy-washy. He did the same last year (or the year before?) when he dismissed discussing ethics/corruption in game journalism as being unimportant only to come around a few days later when there was some backlash to his comments.
As someone who knows Stephen very well, let me say that his willingness to listen to feedback, change his mind, and be open to every possible angle of any story or issue is one of his best qualities, and it's something I often try to emulate.
 
I do think me saying, hey follower you picking fights on Jenns behalf isnt helping matters, on twitter, is pretty accurate.

Totally. This is a major point about whoever is supporting victims that is crucial. Dragging victims or exposed people into harassment fights is just detrimental to them. This is a great piece on this issue.
 
But... we see this all the time, and it's totally acceptable. We see it even with categories or terms that people in general need to be way more careful with than "gamer".

I guess the really easy example is Chris Rock's "Niggas vs Black People" bit. He stopped doing it because racists misappropriated it, not because he was being criticized for racism. But in general it's really, really common to hear people who identify as a member of some racial group speak in generalities about that group or problems with the group as a whole; they don't get criticized for this to nearly the extent that outsiders do because it's really obvious that they're in a position to be aware that #notallX.

This is even less problematic when we're not talking about the sorts of characteristics that in the US we consider suspect classifications. People generalize about political affiliation constantly. This is often seen as stupid, when they get it badly wrong, but rarely is it taken to be very offensive, and certainly not when people are speaking about their own affiliation.

Nobody bats an eye when hobbyists speak in this sort of way about people in their own hobby community.

Was Leigh Alexander speaking about what she perceived to be her own community? We've already established that she wasn't referring to all people who play games. She was referring to gamers as a subculture, and she was very clear what the members of that subculture look like to her:

"It’s young men queuing with plush mushroom hats and backpacks and jutting promo poster rolls. Queuing passionately for hours, at events around the world, to see the things that marketers want them to see. To find out whether they should buy things or not. They don’t know how to dress or behave."

This is right at the beginning of the article. This is who she has in mind when she insults gamers. And she obviously does not think of herself as part of this subculture.

Clearly there's a definition of "gamer" that Leigh Alexander feels is appropriate for her. It's not the one she was insulting in her article, though.
 
I don't think we can fix it, exactly, but applying lessons from other situations can be helpful. Acting with solidarity, taking clear stands against the positions and behavior of these people, combined with moderation (where possible), reports to other authorities (where that'll accomplish anything), and taking steps to actually remove the positive reinforcement the harassers receive can be more effective than any one response alone.

But with twitter and youtube you are not dealing with a small group. Statistically you are, but in terms of pure numbers you are not. Just because only 5% of the comments are shit doesn't mean you are not dealing with a mob. Responding to one is responding to the horde. You call one out, you got another one who comes to the call. It's like a fucking bat signal to a lot of these people on twitter and youtube, it's toxic and feeding it so much is starting to bleed into everything, it is even effecting sports now. I cant even jump on my favorite sports commentators stuff(not even on twitter your youtube) and cant escape the mountain of fucking trolls telling them they need to be shot, because they dont think fucking Aaron Rogers is the 2nd coming of Joe Montana.
 
But with twitter and youtube you are not dealing with a small group. Statistically you are, but in terms of pure numbers you are not. Just because only 5% of the comments are shit doesn't mean you are not dealing with a mob. Responding to one is responding to the horde. You call one out, you got another one who comes to the call. It's like a fucking bat signal to a lot of these people on twitter and youtube, it's toxic and feeding it so much is starting to bleed into everything, it is even effecting sports now. I cant even jump on my favorite sports commentators stuff(not even on twitter your youtube) and cant escape the mountain of fucking trolls telling them they need to be shot, because they dont think fucking Aaron Rogers is the 2nd coming of Joe Montana.

Yeah. I'm still not clear exactly what concrete steps people think can be taken by other participants in these discussions (as opposed to moderators, the police, etc) to combat incivility on the internet without making the problem worse.

Strangers shaming each other in real life works because in real life people are susceptible to shame from strangers. I have seen no evidence whatsoever that this is the case online.
 
I found the string of that indie's allegations that he was sexually harassed by Quinn, took me a bit of time since Phil Fish deleted his twitter and Wolf deleted the tweets (though a tweet acknowledging his accusation still remains), I found screencaps but not a direct link to the string of tweets due to their deletion. Forewarning, it has some of the "red ink" we've seen in the other conspiracy tweet summaries but as this was supposedly an actual discussion that took place at one time I don't feel it's in violation of ground rule # 3 mentioned in the OP.

If anybody wants to see it (though it's old news by now).
 
Imru’ al-Qays;128655659 said:
Was Leigh Alexander speaking about what she perceived to be her own community? We've already established that she wasn't referring to all people who play games. She was referring to gamers as a subculture, and she was very clear what the members of that subculture look like to her:

"It’s young men queuing with plush mushroom hats and backpacks and jutting promo poster rolls. Queuing passionately for hours, at events around the world, to see the things that marketers want them to see. To find out whether they should buy things or not. They don’t know how to dress or behave."

This is right at the beginning of the article. This is who she has in mind when she insults gamers. And she obviously does not think of herself as part of this subculture.

Right. Just like how almost everyone who says something about their own group - a black person who makes some negative generalization about black people, a Democrat who makes some negative generalization about Democrats, etc. - is not including themselves in the subset of the group which is the cause of whatever problem is being identified. "Republicans aren't willing to stand up for their principles" is not something that gets said by Republicans who see themselves as unwilling to stand up for their principles. Alexander obviously seems to be giving a broad description of what this subset of gamers she's talking about is like, at the start of the piece. They're overwhelmingly young men, for one. Later she actually seems to say that what she's doing is describing how gamer culture looks to outsiders. This is a really uncontroversial mode of speaking when it comes to basically everything else in the world.
 
Imru’ al-Qays;128655659 said:
This is who she has in mind when she insults gamers. And she obviously does not think of herself as part of this subculture.
So your point is that to people for whom that accurately describes, it's offensive to mention they are like this and don't have to be the audience for developers and journalists.
 
Imru’ al-Qays;128655659 said:
Was Leigh Alexander speaking about what she perceived to be her own community? We've already established that she wasn't referring to all people who play games. She was referring to gamers as a subculture, and she was very clear what the members of that subculture look like to her:

"It’s young men queuing with plush mushroom hats and backpacks and jutting promo poster rolls. Queuing passionately for hours, at events around the world, to see the things that marketers want them to see. To find out whether they should buy things or not. They don’t know how to dress or behave."

This is right at the beginning of the article. This is who she has in mind when she insults gamers. And she obviously does not think of herself as part of this subculture.

regardless of the clarity of her argument, she's making baseless generalizations about an entire demographic (subculture) of people. what does someone's fashion sense have to do with their attitudes toward women? how does standing in line for posters automatically associate a person with bigotry? she's taking leaps in logic that are not dissimilar to the same leaps these 'Quinnspiracy Theorists' are.

as someone (somewhere, there's a LOT of words going around) said the people who seem to be the most angry over her article are likely those who self-identify/see themselves in the stereotypes she describes. myself included. i'm not parading around in a plush mushroom hat but i have stood in line for posters at conventions before. i've stood in line for lots of incredibly stupid things, but i don't think i deserve to be mislabeled a woman-hater or a bigot because of it. there simply is no logic to that argument.

the idea that the days of videogames being a (hetero white cis) boy's club are over is an important topic of discussion. it's also completely true. but her argument is baseless and feels slightly vindictive.
 
I think you're bringing way too much baggage and projection into your "interpretation" of Alexander's piece. If in doubt, read what Moral Panic just wrote above.

Let's revisit the article, because I get the feeling that, in their desperation to defend or attack this rhetoric, people (myself included) have forgotten what it says.
It’s young men queuing with plush mushroom hats and backpacks and jutting promo poster rolls. Queuing passionately for hours, at events around the world, to see the things that marketers want them to see. To find out whether they should buy things or not. They don’t know how to dress or behave. Television cameras pan across these listless queues, and often catch the expressions of people who don’t quite know why they themselves are standing there.

‘Games culture’ is a petri dish of people who know so little about how human social interaction and professional life works that they can concoct online ‘wars’ about social justice or ‘game journalism ethics,’ straight-faced, and cause genuine human consequences. Because of video games.
Now, I'll admit first that this isn't as offensive as I suggested. I'm as prone to forgetfulness and excitability as anyone else. But there's no subtext here. She is talking about you and she's talking about me.

Also, the article has been edited, which muddies things. Her army line has been removed. I can't say what else has. (Was thinking of another article, should assume this one hasn't been edited)

You understand that this critique is being made by a gamer, right? That the entire first section of the article is feeling despair at how people perceive the subculture that she is a part of? People using this kind of hyperbole to describe groups they are part of is extraordinarily common. Someone from the outside telling a player on a team sport that his team sucks because no one is working hard enough is an asshole; someone from the inside saying that is probably a coach. It's still not ideal (and I criticized Leigh's article about this upthread a ways) but it's a very different thing for someone to complain about their own group than about a foreign one.

The framing being used by people who are really mad about this article all seem to have this undertone that gamers are being shamed by "the women," thereby implicitly confirming the idea that some people really can't imagine "woman" and "gamer" applying to the same person. People make generalizations like this about "gamers" in GAF threads all the time, but since the people doing so are frequently expected to be men and they aren't talking about issues of social justice, nobody gets too worked up about it.
I haven't been on a sports team for many years, but none of the pep talks that I can remember ended with the coach declaring we were all scumbags and that he wanted nothing to do with us. Or that he had an army to use against us.

Alexander makes it immediately clear that she is not speaking as a gamer. The very first sentence of the article is
I often say I’m a video game culture writer, but lately I don’t know exactly what that means.
I am a journalist. I am separate.

And again, we ignore the fact that there were other words pre-loaded with her supposed intended meaning she could have used. The article is poor, but it is not poorly written. I personally don't get the impression that there were linguistic oversights in the text.

As far as the "criticism from women" issue, beyond my personal anecdotes that go against that, there are just too many people involved to even begin to package this up so neatly. I'd like to specifically address this total defense of troublesome things the gaming press has said to exacerbate this issue. I tried to broadscope the thing earlier in the thread and it was totally ignored, probably rightfully, but I think it is more effective to focus on one issue at a time.

But... we see this all the time, and it's totally acceptable. We see it even with categories or terms that people in general need to be way more careful with than "gamer".

I guess the really easy example is Chris Rock's "Niggas vs Black People" bit. He stopped doing it because racists misappropriated it, not because he was being criticized for racism. But in general it's really, really common to hear people who identify as a member of some racial group speak in generalities about that group or problems with the group as a whole; they don't get criticized for this to nearly the extent that outsiders do because it's really obvious that they're in a position to be aware that #notallX.

This is even less problematic when we're not talking about the sorts of characteristics that in the US we consider suspect classifications. People generalize about political affiliation constantly. This is often seen as stupid, when they get it badly wrong, but rarely is it taken to be very offensive, and certainly not when people are speaking about their own affiliation.

Nobody bats an eye when hobbyists speak in this sort of way about people in their own hobby community.
I took the opportunity to watch this Chris Rock bit as I was not familiar with it. As we're going for easy targets and all, the title itself illustrates that Rock is making a linguistic distinction between "black people" and "niggaz." If Leigh wrote the joke, it would have been called "black people vs. black people." I dare say he would have cut that joke a lot sooner if it read "black people hate black people because they will break into your house and rob you."

I can't think of any other examples of open hostility towards a broad category of people that is meant to be about a smaller unnamed category. Especially not from someone who begins their speech by setting themselves outside of the category.
 
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