#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014

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There really is no "win" because aligning yourself with gamergate is a colossal L by default.

People can keep coming in here and other avenues of discussion and try to couch their rhetoric as intellectually as possible, but as long as you overlook that fact that is pretty self-evident there's no point.
 
A big problem in our society is that people view males as the default and women as 'others'. :\ I would speculate that this has something to do with us guys being (unfortunately) the gatekeepers of society for basically all time in conjunction with the well known issue that men say they have in understanding women, but it's also just easier to 'not understand' people's whom your group never even saw as people for a long time.

Yeahh..

I was thinking hard after a debate I had with a friend about Anita's last video. Using women as an incentive to do stuff, is it wrong? I tried getting him to understand, but I just now figured out what I was trying to tell him. x___x

Anita says, the women are used in a "kick the dog" sort of way. A lot of people were angry about that comparison and said "You mean we can't show female victims anymore because Anita doesn't like it!?!" My friend was kind of upset because he felt as though wanting to help disempowered women was a good thing (And, sure it is!) He brought up Watchdogs and said that he genuinely felt bad about the scenario and how it wasn't used to titillate. But that's not really the point at all.

No, it's just the way that it's used is to create pity instead of empathy. The feeling it is taking advantage of is skewed and is "sexist."

To explain it better:

Pity is feeling that another is in trouble and in need of help as they cannot fix their problems themselves, often described as “feeling sorry” for someone. In contrast, Empathy is distinctive from Pity, because it is the literal sharing of emotions between two people. In the act of seeing through another’s eyes, into their unique perspective, wherein one shares the emotions, experiences, and thought progressions of the other person, a connection is forged, unlike that of pitying another.

Pity evokes a tender or sometimes slightly contemptuous sorrow or empathy for a people, person, or animal in misery, pain, or distress. In regard to humans, a protective or quasi-paternal feeling of pity may be felt towards marginalized or impoverished people such as homeless families; orphans; people with disabilities or terminal illnesses, and victims of rape and torture. Some other meanings for Pity are: 1 a: sympathetic sorrow for one suffering, distressed, or unhappy b: capacity to feel pity 2: something to be regretted

Empathy is the capability to share your feelings and understand another’s emotions and feelings. It is often characterized as the ability to “put oneself into another’s shoes,” or in some way experience what the other person is feeling.

THAT's the debate I was trying to have. Pity is a feeling where you look down on someone. Empathy is when you can identify and put yourself in the other's position. Empathy is you relate and see eye to eye.

If women are always the "other," then men can never "identify" or relate to them in a way that isn't about pity. I've been trying to say this to both sides of the fence. It's about seeing eye to eye and feeling as though we are the same. It isn't about white/male guilting people into helping out.

Does that make sense? Can someone tell me if I am making sense? :\

So like, in Papa Y Yo, you are empathizing with the victim. You are in those shoes. Even in games like Majora's Mask, the game uses empathy instead of pity to drive the player. You're not saving people who are too weak, you're saving people who are very similar and relatable to you.
 
Yeahh..

I was thinking hard after a debate I had with a friend about Anita's last video. Using women as an incentive to do stuff, is it wrong? I tried getting him to understand, but I just now figured out what I was trying to tell him. x___x

Anita says, the women are used in a "kick the dog" sort of way. A lot of people were angry about that comparison and said "You mean we can't show female victims anymore because Anita doesn't like it!?!"

No, it's just the way that it's used is to create pity instead of empathy. The feeling it is taking advantage of is skewed.

To explain it better:



THAT's the debate I was trying to have. Pity is an feeling where you look down on someone. Empathy is when you can identify and put yourself in the other's position.

If women are always the "other" then men can never "identify" or relate to them in a way that isn't about pity. I've been trying to say this to both sides of the fence. It's about seeing eye to eye and feeling as though we are the same. It isn't about white/male guilting people into helping out.

Does that make sense? Can someone tell me if I am making sense? :

You are making sense.

More often than not, in nearly ALL forms of entertainment, female characters are portrayed/used that way.
 
This is true...

But let's be fair here. If someone or something doesn't fit someone's perceptions, then they are quite frankly invisible. Feminists have a tendency to pretend that men aren't victims of rape, and that women aren't sometimes abusers of power. That's simply the result of feminists being ignorant to their own perceptions of reality. If you look at the facts, there's a different story, but their minds don't accept those points or those points are dismissed/downplayed. Male rape victims are often invisible.

I think that's a fair comment, though I must add that _most_ of my own awareness of men's issues, as a man, comes from my interface with feminists. Individual women may be ignorant of, say, the incidence of male rape and male victimisation in domestic abuse, or even write it off entirely; feminism as a field and an analytical tool generally does not. There is a general tendency towards intersectionality, though it's far from perfected.

I'll leave it there because I'd rather not see this thread once again diverted into Feminism 101.
 
This is true...

But let's be fair here. If someone or something doesn't fit someone's perceptions, then they are quite frankly invisible. Feminists have a tendency to pretend that men aren't victims of rape, and that women aren't sometimes abusers of power. That's simply the result of feminists being ignorant to their own perceptions of reality. If you look at the facts, there's a different story, but their minds don't accept those points or those points are dismissed/downplayed. Male rape victims are often invisible.

Likewise there are "gamers" who actually believe that women don't play core games. Which is completely untrue since about 22% of hardcore gamers are women. People like me are completely invisible to the hardcore's perception of reality. By invisible I mean, non-existent, the exception, an anomaly, or "doesn't count."

As stupid as this sounds, if someone doesn't believe in something, then that thing doesn't exist. If someone says gays don't exist...then gays don't exist for that person.

Things would be a lot simpler and easier, if everyone just took things as they were. There are going to be women who don't want to talk about SJ. A lot, in fact. There are also going to be a lot of women who don't care about the topic at all. And there are going to be a lot of women who are curious or really interested in the topic. Women make up 50% of the population. We very rarely agree on anything, and that's the way it ought to be. =\

I'm totally with you, but I don't see what you're saying has to do with my point on how NotYourShield isn't a valid negation of the criticism levelled at Gamergate?

Do you mean that we usually imagine that these gamer bigots and the ignorant or epistemically entrenched supporters to be white straight men? Because I'm totally with you on the fact *of course* not everyone in support of the status quo and wanting the topic of social justice to go away is a white straight guy. I'm just unclear about what you mean as I think we're in agreement.

I find it odd that people would consider women a group in the first place. Do we consider all men to be a group? Sometimes...but when we do, aren't we always smacked in the face for overgeneralizing? lol.

Yeah, the whole group classification can become a quite academic discussion in terms of its validity and accuracy. It is incredibly fluid and non-fixed. Normally if we discuss identities, the characteristics are usually ascribed to people external to themselves through various signifiers, rather than something an individual chooses to be. This can have consequences for individuals who do not identify as being a member of that group, yet is still arbitrarily categorized as such. Like Richard Dyer writes:

―Having a word for oneself and one‘s group, making a politics out of what that word should be, draws attention and also reproduces one‘s marginality, confirms one‘s place outside of power and thus outside of the mechanisms of change. Having a word also contains and fixes identity.

Like you say, "we rarely agree on anything and that's the way it ought to be" - that points to how identities and groups are incredibly fluid and non-fixed, yet when we simply talk about groups, we implicitly try to fixate and demarcate such a group, which can lead to further marginalization and "Othering". Therefore, depending on the scope you choose to apply, you might be able to approximately and tentatively use "groups" as a form of what is commonly referred to as "strategic essentialism" - i.e. you use demarcations of identities and groups to be able to talk about power structures and oppression of specific people. These demarcations are not in themselves true, but they serve as discussion enablers on how some specific type of people are oppressed by power structures in society. Such a possible definition could be Iris Marion Young's definition of a group as:

"An aggregate is any classification of persons according to some attribute. […] But highly visible social groups are different from aggregates, or mere "combinations of people". A social group is defined not primarily by a set of shared attributes, but by a sense of identity. […] it is identification with a certain social social, the common history that social status produces, and self-identification that define the group as a group. "

"Social groups are not entities that exist apart from individuals, but neither are they merely arbitrary classifications of individuals according to attributes which are external to or accidental to their identities. […] Group meaning partially constitute peple's identities in terms of the cultural forms, social situation, and history that group members know as theirs, because these meanings have been forced upon them or forged by them or both. Groups are real not as substances, but as forms of social relations"

And it is important to talk about groups and identities, despite their fluid and constantly dissolving nature, as Stuart Hall argues why we can't stop talking about groups and identities:

There really (as they say) is no full stop of that kind. Politics, without the arbitrary interposition of power in language, the cut of ideology, the positioning, the crossing of lines, the rupture, is impossible. I don't understand political action without that moment. I don't see where it comes from. I don't see how it is possible. All the social movements which have tried to transform society and have required the constitution of new subjectivities, have had to accept the necessarily fictional, but also the fictional necessity, of the arbitrary closure which is not the end, but which makes both politics and identity possible.

That was a bit of a sidenote, but I just wanted to elaborate on what I find super interesting in terms of the act of simply talking about something enacts an imposition on identity, yet we still have to speak about it.

There really is no "win" because aligning yourself with gamergate is a colossal L by default.

I wish you could tell that to some of the male game developers that I've worked with :/
 
I think that's a fair comment, though I must add that _most_ of my own awareness of men's issues, as a man, comes from my interface with feminists. Individual women may be ignorant of, say, the incidence of male rape and male victimisation in domestic abuse, or even write it off entirely; feminism as a field and an analytical tool generally does not. There is a general tendency towards intersectionality, though it's far from perfected.

I'll leave it there because I'd rather not see this thread once again diverted into Feminism 101.

Yeah, I think feminism does a lot for men too. I was just trying to say how the human mind tends to cut out things that don't match up sometimes, because we like patterns and consistency too much. This isn't a problem with feminism, just a problem with people who naturally deny things that contradict their perceptions. That's a human thing, not a feminist thing.

Yeah, I agree with everything you say, I think! It's just when things get rough, people get more and more primitive about how they view other groups. The collective conscious is definitely something I find interesting. "Gamers" as a group, definitely have a collective conscious and an extremely terrifying "unconscious" mind.
 
I do think that, in general, people don't tend to respond well to social criticism, however well-intentioned. And it is social criticism rather particularly, and it has happened before in many movements before this one in which fear was the dominant word of the day. I do think that part of the responsibility lies not only in the hands of the users, but also of those enabling these occurrences. Yet there should (in theory) be safeguards against the juvenile behavior we're seeing, the reality is that in almost every online social space, these abuses play themselves out, with little recourse or action by those who supposedly claim responsibility to assure their users do not feel threatened or attacked.

Social media (and I use that term rather loosely) however has changed the stakes in that threats have a more distinct reality to them while also creating situations of vague responsibility (at least, for the person making the threats). I would say that part of the problem is with Twitter, is with Facebook, and other media middlemen whose inaction is creating an extraordinary and tangible fear amongst millions of people. While there needs to be a stronger stance by videogame media sites as well, the enabling factor here is with these groups. Twitter seems, as Facebook, a de facto space of abuse, whose presence is largely assent to say dangerous and hurtful things.

There are statements in both of these companies' EULAs and these terms are also fairly consistent amongst all companies who provide a public space for posting:


And yet... what is their reaction? Institutional abuse, you would think, would naturally lead to institutional reform. But it hasn't happened, and these hate campaigns are not new. They are as old as the creation of the media and despite their massive growth, nothing has changed. Media also has social responsibility and without it, real problems, real fear and real abuse emerge.

I overlooked this post, but Cyrano raises some incredibly relevant points. There should be safeguards against all these things. There's this really good article on The Atlantic about the lack of protection by Youtube, Google, Facebook, Twitter, etc. with some really great commentary and observations (and I even made a thread about it)

Meanwhile, The Verge had a similar article on Weev and the harassment of women online last year. Here are some good quotes:

Twitter and Facebook aren’t much help either, say women’s advocates. Valerie Aurora, the co-founder of the Ada Initiative, a group that tries to make the internet and tech sectors more welcoming to women, said Twitter makes it difficult for harassment victims to get help. "Twitter makes it near impossible to deal with an attack from a lot of trolls [similar to what happened to Sierra and Criado-Perez]," Aurora said. "The only person who can report the abuse is the target. Sometimes Twitter takes months to respond. It’s a total joke."

That could change. The social networks are under more pressure to combat harassment. In the wake of the Criado-Perez threats, Yvette Cooper, a high-ranking member of Britain’s Parliament, called Twitter’s response to the attacks "disgraceful, appalling, and unacceptable

Criado-Perez [...] said last week in a speech before the Women’s Aid conference that she doesn’t think police and Twitter have done all they can do. For instance, she asked why harassers can continue to stalk a victim’s timeline even after they’ve been reported. She did concede, however, that the causes of the problem are deeply rooted in society. "Ultimately, all these actions would be treating the symptoms and not the cause," Criado-Perez told the audience. "Social media doesn’t cause misogyny; the police can’t cure it. What we really need to do is sit down as a society and take a long hard look at ourselves, in order to answer the question: "Why are we producing so many people who just seem to hate women?"

Aurora and other women’s advocates aren’t expecting much change in the current tech environment. They note most websites are operated by men and since few men experience harassment, there isn’t much empathy for this issue. There is also the likelihood that some in tech sympathize more with the abusers. A few victims of online harassment argue that a large section of the tech industry showed where its priorities were by embracing the Free Weev movement.
 
zeldablue, you make a lot of sense. All entertainment suffers from this problem with women.

Related, games and movies are really bad at killing a girlfriend/wife/family member/love interest so you feel either pity or empathy for the male lead, so the woman was effectively just used as a prop to make the man a stronger character.
 
ZeldaBlue, the thing you said about pity is a big reason words like "Agency" are often used by people like Anita & Feminist writers.

Being a victim is not an issue itself, but almost always non-traditional male characters are reduced to a victim with no agency of their own.
 
ZeldaBlue, the thing you said about pity is a big reason words like "Agency" are often used by people like Anita & Feminist writers.

Being a victim is not an issue itself, but almost always non-traditional male characters are reduced to a victim with no agency of their own.

Okay...well I know absolutely nothing about gender studies. :C

Saying as it was so hard for me to articulate what Anita might have been saying...is it that odd that so many people would also misinterpret the kick the dog thing? (Or the damsel/Mrs. Man thing)
 
Meanwhile, The Verge had a similar article on Weev and the harassment of women online last year.

The excerpt from the Verge article you quote refers obliquely to the harassment of Caroline Criado-Perez (and one of her supporters, British Member of Parliament Stella Creasy). While it's true that Twitter was very slow to respond, the police eventually moved on this. Last month one of the most serious offenders, Peter Nunn, was sentenced to 18 weeks in prison for twitter rape threats. The judge added a restraining order forbidding him from having contact with either of his victims.


http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/sep/29/peter-nunn-jailed-abusive-tweets-mp-stella-creasy

In January two other Twitter abusers, Isabella Sorley and John Nimmo, were sentenced to twelve weeks and eight weeks in prison, respectively, for attacks on the same victims.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-campaigner-caroline-criadoperez-9083829.html

Authorities in other countries may have a different approach.
 
Appeal to universal issues (anti harassment, journalism ethics) that have broad support.

I'm not sure how many moderates are even still attached to the movement? It seems like the extremists are all that's left, the group who believe that "journalism ethics" means "don't inject discussion of social issues into gaming" and "journalists should not be allowed to send emails to each other."

How do you even begin to help them understand (especially when so many of them are more interested in destroying the sites they don't like than trying to come to an understanding)?
 
Okay...well I know absolutely nothing about gender studies. :C

Saying as it was so hard for me to articulate what Anita might have been saying...is it that odd that so many people would also misinterpret the kick the dog thing? (Or the damsel/Mrs. Man thing)

I didn't know that. How was it misinterpreted?
 
Like you say, "we rarely agree on anything and that's the way it ought to be" - that points to how identities and groups are incredibly fluid and non-fixed, yet when we simply talk about groups, we implicitly try to fixate and demarcate such a group, which can lead to further marginalization and "Othering". Therefore, depending on the scope you choose to apply, you might be able to approximately and tentatively use "groups" as a form of what is commonly referred to as "strategic essentialism" - i.e. you use demarcations of identities and groups to be able to talk about power structures and oppression of specific people. These demarcations are not in themselves true, but they serve as discussion enablers on how some specific type of people are oppressed by power structures in society. Such a possible definition could be Iris Marion Young's definition of a group
I think it's interesting to note that while this is particularly pertinent to social groups, I don't think it's necessarily true of power structures themselves. Or at least, it tends to be ignored when talking about the why and how of social groups evolving from a collection of individuals into a cogent "group" of some kind. That is to say, while we may not agree on the social groups in a space, we, for whatever reason, do agree that a space is where we present as these collectives. The politics of those spaces however, also say a lot about what we can and cannot say, and what safety and other measures we can expect from choosing that as a space of discourse. If we choose Twitter or we choose Facebook, I believe we should feel safe in those spaces to have discourse without fear or harassment or threat, and at least, according to Facebook and Twitter, they believe so as well. But their actual action (or lack thereof) makes this demonstrably not the case.

I've been doing a lot of reading on what's been called distributed digitization, but I kind of disagree with the premise that the web has actually grown. It's my belief that the web is currently in a state of growing power vacuums, whereby sites like Twitter and Facebook continue to be the talking points we ignore as they grow in power but not in social responsibility for the power they have. You would think that either a) their userbase would shrink as abuse grows, or b) they would fix problems and protect their userbase. But it seems like we're now at a point where they have so much power that they don't need to (or at least, aren't doing anything significant that shows they're attempting to). They (Facebook, Twitter, etc.) have so much collective power that they no longer need to moderate, because they are so significantly powerful in a great many people's day-to-day lives, and particularly so for the gaming industry (though other industries certainly experience this too). It's... actually a lot like the American government. Whereby they have more power than they have ever had, but less responsibility to their public than ever before. While it's important that people are aware of the grim juvenalia of GamerGate and the individuals involved, the total irresponsibility of the sites complicit in its existence and promotion is staggering to me.

How does a power structure (like Twitter) justify that it is both taking on the responsibility for preventing user harassment and letting it constantly and unabashedly occur for as long as it has? The only conclusion I can come up with is that they feel as though whatever harm it's doing, they don't have to care. Because much like the American government, they believe we don't have a choice.
 
He still doesn't get it.

be3e42fce2.png

https://twitter.com/Boogie2988/status/521373540717977600
 
The two Twitter accounts I've reported these past few days got suspended relatively quickly. The one sending death threats to Brianna Wu got shut down in probably an hour, the one spamming death threats to Anita Sarkeesian, maybe within 24 hours. I was hardly the only one to report those though, which I suspect has a significant impact on the response time.

There is always room for improvement, and I know that Twitter isn't doing all it can. As good as time as any to post this again.
Here’s a handful of things Twitter could be trying to protect its users. Allow users to optionally:

Block all users whose accounts are less than 30 days old
This is easy—it takes an arrow out of the quiver of serial harassers who use alternate accounts generated as needed.

Block all users whose follow counts are less than whatever threshold users set
Google used the social proof of “back links” to establish credibility and ranking for content over 16 years ago. This is old hat by now. Users should be able to block anyone who can’t convince other people to follow them.
Rings of followers created just to subvert this will have to be detected.
Again, hire a Google engineer. They’ve cracked this one.

Block new users whose @replies include any words the user decides
Users who are on the receiving end of harassment face startlingly unimaginative adversaries. The same slurs and threats are used over and over. Brand new account with no followers using the n-word? Block!
That’s stupidly easy to express algorithmically.

Block any user who has been blocked by more than N people I’m following
Let’s also share the load. If all your friends block someone there’s a decent chance you’ll want to also.

Auto-blocks are opaque
There should be no feedback when a behavior triggers these measures. The harasser should believe that everything is working as normal.

Bandaids
This is, at best, a box of bandaids. But it arms every user with substantially more tools than they have today to control and enjoy their experience with the platform.
 
A lot of it was organized at 4chan, but to say it was organized by 4chan as though it was essentially one of their anon ops (which is what a lot of people were in essence claiming in conjunction with using the word conspiracy and/or orchestrated) was ludicrous, especially given 4chans size and that it actually has more women visiting and participating in it than most other places on the internet. Notyourshield didn't originate as deep cover for harassment, it was started by a black indie dev who didn't want people speaking for him or w/e. The 'topic secret IRC where they planned the harassment campaigns' was on open public IRC channel where anyone could join and talk, and the dumped all the logs to specifically show that there was no conspiracy, even in the singled out we hunt the mammoth log quotes there were people saying 'this is about journalism ethics' or 'that's messed up' or 'this isn't about you know who, drop it'. In fact the 'smoking gun' of some of them saying 'does anyone know any black hats?' and nothing coming of it kind of shows that most of the people visiting that channel were probably not those breaking the law.

What's the difference between an 'anon op' and what is in that IRC chat*? Do they have a codeword? Does everyone wear special hats?

*all of which is available to anyone, so good attempt at implying the excerpts distort an otherwise civil chat about ethics.
 
The two Twitter accounts I've reported these past few days got suspended relatively quickly. The one sending death threats to Brianna Wu got shut down in probably an hour, the one spamming death threats to Anita Sarkeesian, maybe within 24 hours. I was hardly the only one to report those though, which I suspect has a significant impact on the response time.

There is always room for improvement, and I know that Twitter isn't doing all it can. As good as time as any to post this again.
I like some of these. Tumblr has a similar feature where people who haven't followed you for at least two weeks can't message you.
 
Maybe Boogie, if you want people to dismiss it as "just crazy people" you should stop following the popular GG people that claim pretty much every instance of harrassment or death threats as false flags and conspiracy theories. Gamergate is going to get blamed for this type of stuff when their loudest voices dismiss everything as fake or being too dramatic. When all of this stuff is a conspiracy, attention whoring, or evil feminists tricking the public, you welcome the crazies into your backyard. If Gamers hold up Adam Baldwin or theralphretort and implications the death threats were fake, what do you expect? Gamers in the movement dismiss the seriousness of these types of things. It may be just a couple crazies doing the threat, but it's hundreds, if not thousands, hand waving it away.
 
Maybe Boogie, if you want people to dismiss it as "just crazy people" you should stop following the popular GG people that claim pretty much every instance of harrassment or death threats as false flags and conspiracy theories. Gamergates is going to get blamed for this type of stuff when their loudest voices dismiss everything as fake.
It's a stunningly transparent way for him/them to sidestep responsibility while pretending to have a logical high ground.
 
The two Twitter accounts I've reported these past few days got suspended relatively quickly. The one sending death threats to Brianna Wu got shut down in probably an hour, the one spamming death threats to Anita Sarkeesian, maybe within 24 hours. I was hardly the only one to report those though, which I suspect has a significant impact on the response time.

There is always room for improvement, and I know that Twitter isn't doing all it can. As good as time as any to post this again.

I really like all those suggestions. I don't have much faith that Twitter will do much, but if they do I think those are great ideas to start with.
 
Okay...well I know absolutely nothing about gender studies. :C

Saying as it was so hard for me to articulate what Anita might have been saying...is it that odd that so many people would also misinterpret the kick the dog thing? (Or the damsel/Mrs. Man thing)

I think misrepresentation is never hard if people have a predetermined desire to misrepresent.

It's sorta like when creationists explain evolution horribly (why we still got monkeys); they don't care if they're misrepresenting it, cause they've already made their minds up
on it being wrong.

I've seen tons and tons of articles explaining the "victim with no agency"-issue in media and I know Anita's mentioned it before (don't remember the video/article she did it in though) but generally speaking the people that hate Anita don't go out of their way to read about media representation, they just get mad anytime they run into it without looking.


edit: That Boogie quote makes me hope the dude takes a crash course in logical fallacies some day soon.
 
I think misrepresentation is never hard if people have a predetermined desire to misrepresent.

It's sorta like when creationists explain evolution horribly (why we still got monkeys); they don't care if they're misrepresenting it, cause they've already made their minds up
on it being wrong.

I've seen tons and tons of articles explaining the "victim with no agency"-issue in media and I know Anita's mentioned it before (don't remember the video/article she did it in though) but generally speaking the people that hate Anita don't go out of their way to read about media representation, they just get mad anytime they run into it without looking.

edit: That Boogie quote makes me hope the dude takes a crash course in logical fallacies some day soon.

She doesn't use the word "agency" alot, but she often discusses being an active participant vs being passive. It's a common theme of the damsel in distress and women as background decoration videos.
 
edit: That Boogie quote makes me hope the dude takes a crash course in logical fallacies some day soon.

He even went for "...but both sides":

This is the exact problem.
Not every nut job represents gamers.
Not every crazed sjw represents women.
Don't generalize. Be kind.

Which he even top with:

When an extremist doxxed me and made my personal info public, I never considered blaming "femenists"
Just saying.

Good fucking grief. I wonder if his account got hacked, based on these tweets.
 
The two Twitter accounts I've reported these past few days got suspended relatively quickly. The one sending death threats to Brianna Wu got shut down in probably an hour, the one spamming death threats to Anita Sarkeesian, maybe within 24 hours. I was hardly the only one to report those though, which I suspect has a significant impact on the response time.

There is always room for improvement, and I know that Twitter isn't doing all it can. As good as time as any to post this again.

It's pretty clear that Twitter is set up the way it is by design, not because they haven't learned from Google. This is not a defence of the platform, as it is obviously ripe for harassment and trolling.

I've always viewed Twitter as the comment section of the Internet, and again, this is clearly by design. Everyone has a voice, no matter how idiotic or hateful or ignorant.
 

People like TB and Boogie are dealing with hate from the other side, as well as general "trolling" from others. I think it's fair to say most famous Youtubers will continue getting crazy, hateful threats for a long time just because of how their fanbases work. You develop a thick layer of cynicism toward yourself and others when you conform to this little "trolling" problem we see online so often.

However, being targeted, dog-piled and attacked like what GG does to people...that's a bit different.
 
He did blame "SRS" and he did it in this very thread.

C'mon Boogie.

One of many reasons why I wonder if he got hacked.

People like TB and Boogie are dealing with hate from the other side, as well as general "trolling" from others. I think it's fair to say most famous Youtubers will continue getting crazy, hateful threats for a long time just because of how their fanbases work. You develop a thick layer of cynicism toward yourself and others when you conform to this little "trolling" problem we see online so often.

However, being targeted, dog-piled and attacked like what GG does to people...that's a bit different.

Can we stop this both sides nonsense? It is enough if this Twitter Account is using it.
 
I don't doubt that Boogie may have had some unpleasant interactions with people who are on the other side of the GG thing, but I also think he's far too quick to conflate some people hassling him and being negative/rude with the kind of hate that drives women to leave game development and journalism because they fear for their safety. Folks giving you a hard time over the things you do/say is not at all equivalent to the way people are made to feel unsafe because of parts of their identity that they don't control.

It goes without saying that doxxing and threats are completely out of line for anyone.
 
Anyone watch it? Rather not give this guy any views, but I'm kind of curious to see what constitutes as "probably career suicide"

You will only get a filtered version of what the video contains, either favorably or unfavorably depending on who actually answers your request. You should just watch the video.
 
Can we stop this both sides nonsense? It is enough if this Twitter Account is using it.

I'm not saying what you think I am saying. :\

There is no equivalency. I'm not stating one side makes it okay for the other side to attack. Ever. I am saying there are individuals who see different sides of the same conflicts.

Listening to Boogie now: It feels like a sensitive persecution complex that gamers have. If most gamers are great, then why can't we reflect hard enough to see that we do bad things sometimes? Pointing at the negative is never fun, but we can't always focus on the good unless we want to always be ignorant of the bad. When so many people are being attacked as we speak...how could you tell everyone to ignore this?

It's like everyone in Clocktown ignoring the falling moon, and whenever someone brings it up, they get harassed and scared out of town, labeled as liars and cowards, just for pointing out the problem. It's nice to feel safe and blissfully unaware, but for crying out loud...this denial is overbearing.
 
I don't doubt that Boogie may have had some unpleasant interactions with people who are on the other side of the GG thing, but I also think he's far too quick to conflate some people hassling him and being negative/rude with the kind of hate that drives women to leave game development and journalism because they fear for their safety. Folks giving you a hard time over the things you do/say is not at all equivalent to the way people are made to feel unsafe because of parts of their identity that they don't control.

It goes without saying that doxxing and threats are completely out of line for anyone.
More or less. I think he'd see taking a really hard stance on this entire thing as being hypocritical towards whichever side he went against as both have received different levels of awful abuse, as well as seeing going 'anti GG' as advocating the death of gamers while advocating GG as promoting the harassment of women. I guess that's why he flip-flops on the issue a lot? While I can understand the logic of that, GG still has its roots with Adam Baldwin's dumb tweet about the even dumber Zoe Quinn conspiracy stuff, and it's really hard to remove it from that. You can sympathise with the better intentions of those caught up in GG, acknowledge not everybody under the movement are as worse as the loudest members and agree with the aim to have better games media standards without supporting the hashtag itself or its history. I don't want to advice the guy to shut up on issues he thinks are important, but I get the impression Boogie doesn't really *know* what he's supposed to be thinking to get the most favorable reaction from his audience and beyond, and feels whichever statement he makes is going to be some sort of career suicide either way, which leads me to think he should have just kept mostly quiet and PC on the issue.

There's probably a number of sociopaths or people who simply can't contain their internet rage on the anti-GG 'side' of this thing who have done some shitty things (I think twitter 'activism' also helps a lot in well-intentioned movements getting horribly hijacked) , but it doesn't really give GamerGate more credibility so much as it does just drag the entire drama out into even more of a directionless, angry clusterfuck.
 
Boogie just recorded a video he says is "probably career suicide", so I'm not looking forward to that.
Oh, here it is.

I got about 7 or 8 minutes in, which is no reflection on Boogie. I just hate talking head emotive style on YouTube. More than 5 minutes is hell for me so he did well.

What I got was two points:
1. #notallgaters
2. Death threats are to be equated to feminists calling people names (but both are bad so that's okay, right?)

Not good.
 
Oh, he wasn't hacked.

Anyone watch it? Rather not give this guy any views, but I'm kind of curious to see what constitutes as "probably career suicide"

- Ignore the harassment

-Harrassers don't represent gamers

- You don't have to defend yourself

- Give those articles a click who show gamers as heroes

And a continuiation of the fallacies in his tweets.
 
Oh, he wasn't hacked.



- Ignore the harassment

-Harrassers don't represent gamers

- You don't have to defend yourself

- Give those articles a click who show gamers as heroes

And a continuiation of the fallacies in his tweets.
Can someone explain to me this notion that gamers are "heroes" and special? People don't go to the theaters and see themselves as heroes because they're movie watchers. You're just engaging in a hobby. How can a gamer be portrayed as a "hero"?
 
I'm not saying what you think I am saying. :

There is no equivalency. I'm not stating one side makes it okay for the other side to attack. Ever. I am saying there are individuals who see different sides of the same conflicts.

I'm sorry.

Listening to Boogie now: It feels like a sensitive persecution complex that gamers have. If most gamers are great, then why can't we reflect hard enough to see that we do bad things sometimes? Pointing at the negative is never fun, but we can't always focus on the good unless we want to always be ignorant of the bad. When so many people are being attacked as we speak...how could you tell everyone to ignore this?

It's like everyone in Clocktown ignoring the falling moon, and whenever someone brings it up, they get harassed and scared out of town for pointing out the problem. It's nice to feel safe and blissful, but for crying out loud...the denial is overbearing.

If we are so great, why are we not caring about the fellow female gamers, first and foremost, and not about our branding? Not about better representation? Not about variety? Why does it have to be " Lalala, I can't hear you, I'm awesome."?
 
@Cyrano: I really liked that perspective about inclination and motivation for Twitter and Facebook and other monopoly holders in social media in terms of not combatting this issue. One could also argue that it is because of the men in power positions in the tech industry not being exposed to the harassment themselves to the same extent as others, and therefore not doing much about the harassment policies and safeguards.

Boogie just recorded a video he says is "probably career suicide", so I'm not looking forward to that.
Oh, here it is.

It's not a career suicide video. It's totally fine, it's just him being frustrated with the situation and being blamed by all fronts. I.e. he doesn't realize that his situation is caused by the issue of having to take some kind of a stand, as he can't be both/and when it comes to commenting on Gamergate. I tried summing some points up, but most of you know where I come from, so if you're in doubt about my assessment, just ignore the below.

  • Boogie unfortunately makes the mistake that he thinks video games are under attack by including "I've defended games from Fox News and Jack Thompson", as if they are relevant in this debate on social and political criticism of video games.
  • He thought that if he approached GG in the middle, then he could find some middle-ground. In doing so he states that he pissed off people on every angle and every way. E.g. he states that he had to defend his position on Neogaf and on Kotaku, among other places like 4chan and Reddit.
  • My own opinion: But when Boogie wanted to serve as a mediator between the different "sides", he didn't realize the futility of such a thing. It is impossible to mediate between one side that wants to literally destroy and exclude anyone who disturbs the status quo. But if you're not part of the default or the status quo simply by virtue of your identity, you can't compromise with such a side. When they want to destroy and harass and push out who you are and your right to exist, then it is impossible to mediate.
  • He goes on to say that he wanted to defend the gamers in this debate ("I wanted to defend gamers in this debate [...] I defended it every way"). It should be obvious why this was the wrong fight to take and the wrong case to defend gamers from.
  • Boogie then talks about the fact that we're all people with our own experiences, love, kindness and common-sense. Yeah, we all are and that is what saddens me a lot - that a lot of these people themselves have feelings and thoughts and emotions and somehow they reached a point where they lash out against anyone criticising their video games or simply being a woman.
  • Then he goes on to state that bad people does not represent a group as a whole. When someone harasses, he does not represent gaming as a whole, when some guy says shit over Xbox Live or Twitter, he is not representative of gamers, etc. So the usual argument that deflects away from the actual, existing problem of how non-default people are treated in video games.
  • Boogie also states that if you disagree with some journalist or don't like some particular article, don't worry about it and don't click on it. Which is a sensible thing that many people in Gamergate don't get.
  • Apparently he also still thinks that the Gamers Are Dead article were accusatory and calling gamers misogynists. Which I think they patently weren't.
  • He then includes Columbine and Jack Thompson as if they are comparable or similar in nature to the "sexism" discussion. He thinks that some people are accusing all gamers of being misogynists and pieces of shit for playing games with sexist elements. Which again isn't true.
So yeah, I don't think he's understood Gamergate and the social criticism properly. It is unfortunate, as I thought his participation in this thread had helped him along in the awareness of the problematic connotations with GG.
 
To be quite honest, I find it a bit disturbing that even he is suggesting that writers and other people should not be pointing out the harassment that is taking place. That by pointing them out and writing about it, that it is those people's fault that things are the way they are and does no good at all. People should just shut up and take it whenever they get abused thrown their way? That's a baffling way to try and fix an issue.

He's obviously very frustrated about this whole thing and I don't blame him. But I do feel that he does not really have a firm grasp of everything that has happened and continues to happen.
 
I could be wrong, but is he subconciously drawing this line between gamers and women again?

Can someone explain to me this notion that gamers are "heroes" and special? People don't go to the theaters and see themselves as heroes because they're movie watchers. You're just engaging in a hobby. How can a gamer be portrayed as a "hero"?

Social work? I dunno, his overall point was better representation of gamers. Better as in more articles how awesome gamers are.
 
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