partyphone
Banned
there is something wrong with it. but it doesn't justify kotaku's broad policy regarding patreon and crowd funding.
and you can be against this sort of thing while not supporting gamergate. it's not a zero sum game.
#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014
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there is something wrong with it. but it doesn't justify kotaku's broad policy regarding patreon and crowd funding.
and you can be against this sort of thing while not supporting gamergate. it's not a zero sum game.
Dr_LucienSanchez
Banned
I don't really think that you can get away with telling people to calm down and chill when they're just refuting the constant shit that you keep posting. The whole two sides nonsense has been addressed ad nauseam in this thread, and it's just so frustrating to see it pop up again and again.
I know you [repeatedly] state that you're not taking any position in this whole shitshow, but a kind of clear pattern emerges from reading your posts (whether it's bringing up ZQ or misinterpreting out-of-context tweets).
so the horrible actions at the core and at the roots of the movement don't bother you because the real message in it all is strong enough that they are worth looking the other way to preserve the coherency of the rest of the group?
NoblesseOblige
Banned
You've limited your opinion to two of the worst sources of information regarding this topic. Twitter has a character limit that hinders its value and youtube is a breeding ground for misinformation. This situation is much deeper than those two sites, and began on neither of them. If you were actively paying attention from the start then GG wasn't born as a fighter of journalistic corruption that its branded itself through social media. It began as an attack on a woman, which quickly spread to be an attack on several women, and then just women in general. This farce about it being about journalism is just the little worm it inserts into listeners ears that quickly borrows into their brain as truth.
plagiarize
Banned
You made me spray water out of my nose.
They LITERALLY DATED guys. They went on more than one actual date! SO... uhm... BAD JOURNALISM! I AM SO ANGRY ABOUT THIS RIGHT NOW BECAUSE THEY HAD ACTUAL DATES.
Thank you for a good chuckle this morning.
Steve Youngblood
Member
I think many just aren't invested in it. I'm honestly not defending Hernandez here. What you're describing sounds pretty shady, but admittedly, I'm not up on this story at all (and I'm not soliciting further information on this either). Yes, I think it's clear that a journalist shouldn't praise something in that fashion to readers without disclosing such a relationship to the creator in question. But should she be fired? I really have no thoughts on this.
How many people felt burnt by this? Did people buy the game and feel they were misled? How many people even read the pieces in question? A better understanding of those questions would help inform whether she should obviously be out of a job or if a promise to be more transparent going forward is sufficient.
RubberJohnny
Banned
Some good points made on "it's not representative".
I mean, seriously, how do people explain the escalation of this harassment and death threats over the last couple of months if they're not linked?
I mean, seriously, how do people explain the escalation of this harassment and death threats over the last couple of months if they're not linked?
Gutsy Frog
Banned
If there's one thing I learned from seeing certain Neogafers call GG terrorists and seeing stuff like "feminists hate gay men" coming from certain GGers it's that belonging to a group/applying a label to yourself sucks and you will always be generalized, always
lone wolf 4 lyf
lone wolf 4 lyf
Dr_LucienSanchez
Banned
I literally just pooped my pants in outrage at this display of corrupt journalism.
Yes, and unfortunately there can be no discussion had about them currently. Which kind of is shitty.
Gutsy Frog
Banned
If pimping your girlfriend's games with no disclosure isn't corrupt journalism then what is?
plagiarize
Banned
I should point out, I'm not saying there hasn't been unethical journalism here... I just found the statement hilarious.
Yeah, the relationship should have been made clear, but I guess some people see dating as a much bigger deal than I do.
Some good points made on "it's not representative".
I mean, seriously, how do people explain the escalation of this harassment and death threats over the last couple of months if they're not linked?
The women they refer to by codenames, as if they were some military target. The women they discuss camping outside the house of and lynching.
EDIT: By the way, someone do me a favour and post my response to the Muslim argument whenever it comes up next. I'm not even Muslim myself, I'm just getting annoyed at the same terrible defense coming up over and over.
i'm sure this comparison has been made elsewhere but if we compare GG to politics, lets compare it to the Tea Party movement in the US. While the origin of the movement is probably pretty seedy and rotten from the get-go considering the initial money for events being fronted by dudes like the Koch Bros., (much like the concerted harassment of women from the start of #GamerGate) many people that have right/far-right/libertarian ideology started aligning themselves/identifying with it. Taxed enough already, of course plutocrats are going to bandwagon the shit out of an easily movement. The end-goals of the movements were so nebulous from the get-go that ANYONE with right leaning ideas could fit right in. To them "less government" means "don't touch my medicare", "government stay out of marriage" means "gays cannot get married", "don't tax me so much" means "big businesses can still receive corp. welfare tho!". Most of the supporters are intellectually dishonest and claim to want one thing, when they actually want something else entirely.
The Tea Party is usually laughed at by most people. Their the butts of jokes in the media and from regular people. While they have influenced some legislation and campaigns of certain politicians, most people associate Tea Partiers as those that carry cardboard signs of "Use Your Brain Moran!", protest at government events by carrying fully-loaded automatic weapons, protest by entering chain retail stores with weapons (this is proving a point!)... These are the people that define Tea Partiers to most people. If #GamerGate had the same kind of cultural impact as the Tea Party, I'm sure that people would reflexively think of hateful young males harassing and issuing threats to women. The movement is toxic.
tonysidaway
Member
Are you suggesting bad faith? I'm veering in that direction, but not at the point where I would disengage. The whole Zoe Quinn gossip was a big red flag for me.
Man, I really do agree with you about this but the issue was address. Add to that the fact that Hernandez was talking mostly about free, silly little games in a non-review style and it's kind of a non issue at this point when compared to the systemic and actually harmful corruption of WB paying YouTubers to talk good about their game.
Hernandez done fucked up and was corrected. Let's let her and us move the fuck on now.
Steve Youngblood
Member
Right. But how big was that story anyway? As a gamer, is there anything other than citing principle that I should be worked up about that story and writing Totillo letters calling for her termination? Or is this more a thing that resulted from people digging up dirt on female writers they didn't like and -- while obviously egregious -- really isn't that big of a scandal?
plagiarize
Banned
Wake me up when it doesn't seem like all the outrage is directed at the few female journalists in gaming.
Failing to mention that the person who made a game is your girlfriend is so far from the most egregious example of corrupt journalism as to boggle my mind that you would write something like 'if that isn't, THEN WHAT IS?'.
partyphone
Banned
taking money to run a story you otherwise would not run
Someone being a literal human being with a social life is not "definitely harmful to gamers".
outunderthestars
Banned
Here is the issue for me: Even in your worst case example, I can't see it as a big enough issue to warrant caring about. Preview coverage of a game has always been promotional, so I don't care if it that pro optional push comes in the form of payment, travel, or personal connection.
Why don't the GG people just launch a kick starter and start your own site?
RubberJohnny
Banned
Yeah, I'm unsure why the only issues people seem to care about involve tiny indie SJW developers sex lives, and not say everything mentioned here.
Like I feel we have much bigger problems that affect a much larger segment of the industry than a worthy freeware game that raises money for charity.
Not to mention, there's no reasoning why we need an organised campaign with propaganda to what? Point out someones ex?
It almost feels like people are focusing on these problems due to a political agenda, and not actual interest in corruption.
Like I feel we have much bigger problems that affect a much larger segment of the industry than a worthy freeware game that raises money for charity.
Not to mention, there's no reasoning why we need an organised campaign with propaganda to what? Point out someones ex?
It almost feels like people are focusing on these problems due to a political agenda, and not actual interest in corruption.
plagiarize
Banned
Right. The relationship should have been disclosed... but to say things like it's legitimately harmful to gamers... it's unethical journalism, but I'm not sure who was legitimately harmed in any way by this.
Morally wrong... yes. Should have been addressed (and it subsequently was)... yes. What actual harm is there to be upset about though?
Gamergate in theory had decent message about journo ethics, but holy shit the people who attached themselves to the group once Zoe and Anita became the focus were the worst aspects of the internet. I think it took about about 3 weeks from the message to turn from journo ethics to the 'SJW', anti-feminist talk. They turned social justice into a word that is supposed to be hated and feminism to become something that should be looked down on. Sure there are some weird feminists on tumblr who hate men and such, but every single self proclaimed feminist in real life Ive met had male friends or boyfriends, were never for bringing down men, but bringing up women. I really think the gamergate warped there own sense of of what feminism by basing it entire on internet posts and articles rather than talking to actual feminists.
Whatever good will the original message had has been warped by a sea of everything wrong with "gamer" culture and the people in it.
Whatever good will the original message had has been warped by a sea of everything wrong with "gamer" culture and the people in it.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
promote a free game, brehs
Review events, accepting gifts/swag from publishers, sites not discussing the shit that pubs do to restrict content from games--ALL OF THESE THINGS, more important about some chick fucking a dude or that dude promoting a free game.
what does a developer gain from promoting a free game
not money obviously
You done
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
I can't believe this either. All this anger and agitation for that? That's like starting a riot and burning down a convenience store because the cashier overcharged you by 25 cents for a pack of gum.
tonysidaway
Member
Get your facts right. It _started_ with a harassment campaign against Zoe Quinn, in August.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Yeah, those people don't understand the concept of hyperbole. I'd love to see their confusion during the "punk is dead" era that was coined and repeated by, gasp, punk rockers. They don't grasp that the people declaring gamers/gaming are/is dead are gamers themselves just showing their dissatisfaction with the climate change.
Gatekeeping access to review copies, NDAs preventing pre-day one reviews, preview parties distributing swag to attendees, console giveaways à la Oprah Show, youtubers and streamers being paid to give preferential treatment to specific games with direct guidelines by PR arms of publishers on how to do "good" coverage of their games.
I'm totally fine with Patricia Hernandez should have disclosed, that might be the one thing I've ever agreed with on gamergate. I still find those articles had less of a conflict-of-interest than the lauded escapist interviews with male developers which included the person who literally created and stil hosts the gamergate boycotts as a *representative developer* in a 'what devs think about gamergate' article.
Jenn Frank, Maddy Myers, Danielle Rienddeu, Caralyn Petit? I see people who talk about social issues or women in games held up as the example of corruption by gamergate. Some of the very same people most outside the gaming industry, female freelancers, and frankly some of the few people who DO write about things like nepotism in gaming journalism.
Jenn Frank, Maddy Myers, Danielle Rienddeu, Caralyn Petit? I see people who talk about social issues or women in games held up as the example of corruption by gamergate. Some of the very same people most outside the gaming industry, female freelancers, and frankly some of the few people who DO write about things like nepotism in gaming journalism.
it should really tell you the severity of "a gamer's problems". A human being wrote something that was connected to another human being. Bring out the pitchforks
Meanwhile, women, people of color, LBGTQ can't even exist in video game spaces without fear and environmental stress of receiving threats and slurs.
I think many GGers don't even know what ethics is. They fight against reviewers stating opinions they disagree with. They fight against sites publishing articles they disagree with. They fight against normal relationships between people working together in the same field. They fight against some small writer talking about a game from a friend or whatever in a blog-post format website.
I think many GGers think they're fighting for ethics but the truth is they're fighting for censorship of disagreeable opinions (to them).
And I will say again one of the really sad things about this is that real discussion of real ethical concerns has taken a back seat to this garbage. I would recommend people go look for that Rab Florence thread and read the kind of discourse in there and then go read that sub reddit or 8chan or whatever and see how ridiculously off base GG is.
I think many GGers think they're fighting for ethics but the truth is they're fighting for censorship of disagreeable opinions (to them).
And I will say again one of the really sad things about this is that real discussion of real ethical concerns has taken a back seat to this garbage. I would recommend people go look for that Rab Florence thread and read the kind of discourse in there and then go read that sub reddit or 8chan or whatever and see how ridiculously off base GG is.
EDIT: nvm
outunderthestars
Banned
What's funny is that the best example they come up with is four blog posts that amount to : This game is cute/charming/awesome, you should try it. One example of "pimping" a game is literally two sentences and a link.
They are literally scraping the bottom of the barrel at this point, desperate for some example of corruption.
Dr_LucienSanchez
Banned
Hm, I have no idea, and I guess it's not for me to say. Anybody willing to have a good discussion about the topic should be heard. But like you, I found the dredging up of the Zoe Quinn stuff to be a bit of an alarm bell.
Oh no, I thought it was really funny also. Can't say much about unethical journalism, except for that I think the whole thing was overblown. Mainly because a female writer was involved, of course.
Steve Youngblood
Member
Let's be clear here: someone in Hernadez's position should have disclosed the relationship. Actual readers of her work have a right to feel they were misled. But my question is just "did the people who are complaining the loudest now even read those pieces or is this just something they heard about after the fact?"
Yeah I really cannot find it within myself to give a fuck about a couple of indie devs relationships. Should she have disclosed? Sure. But when the net result of this is so tiny (a couple of struggling devs get a few more sales), I don't think it should be treated with the same concern that should be extended to far more culturally powerful AAA designers and their problematic relationships with some sections of the press.
plagiarize
Banned
There would be so much more to talk about if they were focusing beyond 'stories about games developed or written by women that are having sex with someone who isn't me'.
Yeah. What harm am I supposed to be outraged about? Yes. She should have disclosed. Her employer obviously felt that and corrected it, and I'm sure they had some discussions about why, but that's entirely none of my business. If it hadn't been address... maybe you have cause for complaint. But it was. As it should have been. But the only harm done was to the reputation of a gaming blog. Not to gamers. Maybe a handful of people tried a free to play game and didn't have fun with it.
It is relevant because this means someone can terrorize you in Utah all day long, since they're literally allowed to bring the weapon they want to murder you with into a conference room where in theory, any criminal that suddenly showed up or stood up in the audience could not be fired upon without hitting innocent bystanders because it's a conference room full of people because we've somehow made it easier to enable threats upon other persons than protect persons by restricting them from bringing a gun onto a fucking school campus.
Utah is literally enabling stalkers and creeps with their law. They are enabling the easy attack and murder of someone a creeper or psychotic person doesn't like. Because someone hasn't said "hey, isn't a stupid fucking idea to let someone bring a gun to a place where people are going to have heated discussions?". Instead of you know, the sane option that lets everyone enter the room without the option of killing someone.
It's shining a light on how a lot of states that are *surprise* leaning towards the right wing and conservative tend to have laws that disfavor the protection of women.
Patricia Hernandez is a vocal supporter of feminism in gaming so they hate her and want to get her fired and the best They could come up with after the dozens of hours spent trying to dig up anything at all in order to destroy her life is four blurbs about free indie games who were made by her friend.
That is what GamerGate represents.
Right. Gamergate is directly descended from TheQuinnspiracy. It didn't have any legitimate goals at first, and we've seen that it doesn't have any legitimate main goal now. Only the poor saps who didn't notice the man behind the curtain have been concerned with ethics.
They really are leaving themselves with no quarter, aren't they?
ST2K
Member
Why does that matter? Can attention not be drawn to something that's wrong so people can speak out about it?
Also, coincidentally, now we're talking about yet another woman in video games who did something that should be condemned and criticized to the point of her losing her position in the industry. Funny how that works
Definitely. The reaction is just entirely disproportionate. Wanting her to lose her job for it? You gotta be kidding me.
Definitely. The reaction is just entirely disproportionate. Wanting her to lose her job for it? You gotta be kidding me.
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