Support NeoGAF

[Octavianus]

Earthworm Jim. Loved those games back in the day but after reading up on Doug TenNapel I just can't.

 

[Muskieratboi]

Levine's criticism of Randean individualism in Bioshock suggests he never actually read Atlas Shrugged, but saw a couple internet comics about it, and then designed a game around that.

This is actually the biggest misconception of Bioshock and the references to Rand's Work.

According to the Director's commentary for Bioshock Remastered, the inspiration for Bioshock wasn't Atlas Shrugged at all.

It was The Fountainhead.

Which is a whole different kettle of fish, and works MUCH more closely with Bioshock's Individualism, rather than Atlas Shrugged's Objectivism.


EDIT:

Earthworm Jim. Loved those games back in the day but after reading up on Doug TenNapel I just can't.

As a huge fan of Project G.E.E.K.E.R. and EWJ, I feel your pain.

 

[kyser73]

This is actually the biggest misconception of Bioshock and the references to Rand's Work.

According to the Director's commentary for Bioshock Remastered, the inspiration for Bioshock wasn't Atlas Shrugged at all.

It was The Fountainhead.

Which is a whole different kettle of fish, and works MUCH more closely with Bioshock's Individualism, rather than Atlas Shrugged's Objectivism.


EDIT:


As a huge fan of Project G.E.E.K.E.R. and EWJ, I feel your pain.

TBF though saying someone misrepresented one of Rand's work when it was actually based on another is like saying you've put the wrong colour on a picture of a turd.

 

[Muskieratboi]

TBF though saying someone misrepresented one of Rand's work when it was actually based on another is like saying you've put the wrong colour on a picture of a turd.

This is a Correct assumption to make.

 

[Vazduh]

I'll never buy Armikrog unless it comes to Humble Bundle, and that saddens me.

Had to google it, and after finding the archived gaygamer.net article and seeing Doug's comment below... damn.

"Gamescook said:
I wish someone would punch him in the nose."

Doug TenNapel said:
I'd be fine with this so long as you didn't have an open sore on your knuckle.

May 27, 2011 10:32 PM

An HIV joke?

Just... Wow.

 

[FlyinJ]

Is Dragon Quest promoted in any way to support actions of political parties or organisations? Is there any indication, that the amount of money earned with the next Dragon Quest game is connected directly with the amount of money spent on political acitivities of a certain kind? Or is it just disdain against one person involved due to his views? Because clearly, the money you spend on Dragon Quest is distributed over a whole lot of persons with a whole lot of different ideals and goals. From the shop owner where you buy it, over the console maker who gives licenses to the game, to the publisher and its employees. Including that guy who thinks that Japan did no wrong in WW2. Now what each party does with the money, is entirely their thing, but "thinking Japan did no wrong in WW2" and "getting 20 cents from you" does not mean that money is flowing towards any evil deeds.

Most political views are just that, views, and are not affected a lot by the amount of money a person owns. Sure, some people will give money to what they deem a good cause, but that is very loosely related to your buying decision and as long as you don't even have any information that a certain percentage of the money gained by selling a game is being used towards a certain goal, it's just guesswork. I claim it is irrational, because the desired effect of your actions (or lack thereof) cannot be quantified and may very well be (read: Most likely is) exactly 0. Moreover, it is questionable, whether the small share one person might get that has political views you don't like exceeds the relevance of the money give to all the people who don't and just did good work at their job.

The direct effect on people's well being when buying game consoles produced under abysmal conditions in china most definitely so far outweighs any minor effect your expense may indirectly have on the funding of a lobby group you don't like, that it is rather preposterous to focus on such a thing. I think such behaviour is completely emotional in nature and is not based on an analysis of expected outcome of the behaviour when compared to other behaviours.

Yes, Sugiyama runs an organization he put together to deny japanese war crimes that he funds with the profits he makes from Dragon Quest.

This is well documented.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Earthworm Jim. Loved those games back in the day but after reading up on Doug TenNapel I just can't.

Aren't they selling the Earthworm Jim IP? I think I saw a thread about that recently.

 

[PSqueak]

If the money you gave to the creator for the game was used by the creator to fund organizations formed to make other people's lives worse, would you care then?

Pretty much anything you buy will have some person involved that will use their profits in ways you don't aprove, but at the same time, the creation process benefits a myriad of people whose public lives you don't know, and maybe you found out an homophobic person worked in some game, but chances are, several gay people also worked in that game and benefit from it selling.

This is why i separate the creation from the creator, i can appreciate the creation on it's own merit and still think the creator is a piece of shit, that doesn't mean i am going to willingly impact on the thousands of people in the "assembly line" just for one asshole.

 

[CharminUltra]

I am still able to enjoy EWJ, but TenNapel is a turd.

 

[Staf]

Never happend to me. Despite frequently being on GAF i have zero knowledge (or interest) about the political part of gaming.

 

[FlyinJ]

Pretty much anything you buy will have some person involved that will use their profits in ways you don't aprove, but at the same time, the creation process benefits a myriad of people whose public lives you don't know, and maybe you found out an homophobic person worked in some game, but chances are, several gay people also worked in that game and benefit from it selling.

This is why i separate the creation from the creator, i can appreciate the creation on it's own merit and still think the creator is a piece of shit, that doesn't mean i am going to willingly impact on the thousands of people in the "assembly line" just for one asshole.

The balance argument is a good counterpoint.

However, in the case of something like the Palmer Luckey/Oculus situation, he is taking the money earned for him by his employees and funding an organization whose purpose it is to make people hate minorities, women and LGBT.

In that case I'm willing to bet a large majority of minorities, women and LGBT would leave the company because they don't want their work contributing to an organization whose goal it is to make people hate them, giving less credence to the balance offset argument.

 

[Jharp]

Noooooo

This will crush my wife, she loves The Neverhood.

Then why bother telling her? How about instead of ruining something your wife loves, you just let it be, because what fucking relevance does it have to the product?

I will never understand this absurd mentality.

 

[FlyinJ]

Then why bother telling her? How about instead of ruining something your wife loves, you just let it be, because what fucking relevance does it have to the product?

I will never understand this absurd mentality.

Would be really good to know so when this homophobic shit stain comes out with another game you won't give him money so he can give it to an organization that makes LGBT lives a living hell.

I'm very happy to have been previously informed of the way he would use my money when he put up his Amikrog kickstarter.

 

[Ogodei]

This is the kind of thing that sets me off. Sugiyama I can just write off as an old man probably stuck in his ways who hopefully is just an example of a generation that's about to move on (although you can't underestimate similar nonsense coming out of younger people's mouths), but this sort of stuff is coming from someone younger, and ESPECIALLY when they give money to terrible causes, is a lot harder to stomach. It's why I'll take more of an issue with Chick-fil-A than Papa John's (from what I know anyway) in that Chick-fil-A contributed monetarily to awful causes while Papa John's is just run by a miserly asshole.

Might be late, but Tennapel isn't that young, right? He got his claim to fame in the 90s with stuff like Earthworm Jim, the EJ cartoon, and another cartoon called Project GEEKER.

 

[chronic_archaic]

Separate the art from the artist.

 

[charlequin]

Pretty much anything you buy will have some person involved that will use their profits in ways you don't aprove, but at the same time, the creation process benefits a myriad of people whose public lives you don't know, and maybe you found out an homophobic person worked in some game, but chances are, several gay people also worked in that game and benefit from it selling.

This is why there's a difference between the owner of something and some random contract employee, or between the sole author of something vs. one out of a thousand, in deciding on what people are comfortable with in these cases.

 

[PSqueak]

The balance argument is a good counterpoint.

However, in the case of something like the Palmer Luckey/Oculus situation, he is taking the money earned for him by his employees and funding an organization whose purpose it is to make people hate minorities, women and LGBT.

In that case I'm willing to bet a large majority of minorities, women and LGBT would leave the company because they don't want their work contributing to an organization whose goal it is to make people hate them, giving less credence to the balance offset argument.

The palmer luckey example makes it really complex to, on one side, you're right, on the other side, Oculus is now owned by Facebook, and Facebook/Zuckerberg are pretty much also actively donating efforts on the opposite direction of Luckey, so there are more things to concider.

Like Charlequin mentions, it's also about the position of the problematic element, i guess there are truly some people in high enough power that would merit not making the disconnect.

 

[Zubz]

Separate the art from the artist.

I think a lot of people have an issue with certain cases where the artist is using the money from the art for something disgusting. I mean, I knew TenNapel was a disgusting person, but I didn't realize he spent the money he made from games like Earthworm Jim and The Neverhood on hate groups, and that by supporting him, you're just giving him money to bleed into something that's directly harmful to others.

I mean, I knew he was racist, sexist, and homophobic, but "separate art from artist" was the mentality I had when I backed the KickStarter, because I just knew he had those awful mentalities, not that he acted on them. Now that I know this, however... I'm sitting on an Armikrog code and I don't know if I even want to redeem it.

And even then, TenNapel's a small-name artist whose only noteworthy release in roughly a decade was a spiritual successor to an obscure cult hit that released without so much as a "thud," let alone a "bang." He doesn't even have the rights to any of his old IP's anymore, nor has he had them for decades. Just imagine someone like Luckey who's actually relevant and making money.

EDIT: Huh. I guess TenNapel's getting work again; he's working on that Stork movie.

 

[chronic_archaic]

I think a lot of people have an issue with certain cases where the artist is using the money from the art for something disgusting. I mean, I knew TenNapel was a disgusting person, but I didn't realize he spent the money he made from games like Earthworm Jim and The Neverhood on hate groups, and that by supporting him, you're just giving him money to bleed into something that's directly harmful to others.

I mean, I knew he was racist, sexist, and homophobic, but "separate art from artist" was the mentality I had when I backed the KickStarter, because I just knew he had those awful mentalities, not that he acted on them. Now that I know this, however... I'm sitting on an Armikrog code and I don't know if I even want to redeem it.

And even then, TenNapel's a small-name artist whose only noteworthy release in roughly a decade was a spiritual successor to an obscure cult hit that released without so much as a "thud," let alone a "bang." He doesn't even have the rights to any of his old IP's anymore, nor has he had them for decades. Just imagine someone like Luckey who's actually relevant and making money.

EDIT: Huh. I guess TenNapel's getting work again; he's working on that Stork movie.

I suppose I never ran into instances where I genuinely had a major problem with the artist. This dude sounds like a fuckstick but thankfully Earthworm Jim never appealed to me anyway. I knew about the Dragon Quest composer but it never got to me as it was his personal belief and I can't control that. I mean realistically when you buy the latest AAA game there's a good chance someone on the team is doing some shady shit or has opinions you don't agree with. There are a lot of shitty people in the world and no industry goes without them.

 

[FlyinJ]

I suppose I never ran into instances where I genuinely had a major problem with the artist. This dude sounds like a fuckstick but thankfully Earthworm Jim never appealed to me anyway. I knew about the Dragon Quest composer but it never got to me as it was his personal belief and I can't control that. I mean realistically when you buy the latest AAA game there's a good chance someone on the team is doing some shady shit or has opinions you don't agree with. There are a lot of shitty people in the world and no industry goes without them.

Again, the DQ composer runs an organization whose purpose is to deny japanese war crimes. He funds this organization with the profits he gets from Dragon Quest sales.

So he's using the money you give him for Dragon Quest to fund this organization.

 

[Bloodporne]

I can see the counter argument but personally don't care at all I have to say. I'm too much of a closet nihilist to get offended about pretty much anything at this stage of my life.

I mean I'm German and enjoy the Wolfenstein series after all which has been about as sensitive about my people's past as a shovel to the face.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I don't understand this, except maaaybe for Indies, because games are a team product, so why would you not buy a game based on the political opinion of one person involved? What if all the others have opinions that you value a lot? If you are working some place, among the 100 persons that are closest to you on the company (ideally, on the same team, but the team sizes for games are not often matched on other jobs), are there none with questionable political views? Would you think it's fair if people were boycotting your company because one person working there had unpopular political opinions?

Personally, for all I care, some developers of games I play may be mysoginists, hate LGBT people, or even be a racist or politcally active creationist, it has no bearing on my enjoyment of the game [as long as these views do not heavily get reflected in the game] and I would certainly not base any buying decisiion on that.In other words: You tell me Hitler worked on Yoshi's Island? Well, it' still the best game ever made and it is not noticable in the game.

You could have left out everything but the last two sentences and it would have been a much more succinct way of saying you don't care.

 

[Necromanti]

In other words: You tell me Hitler worked on Yoshi's Island? Well, it' still the best game ever made and it is not noticable in the game.

Exactly. Plus, maybe those extra funds would have helped house the Jews more humanely before they got loaded into the gas chambers.

 

[kamineko]

"If Hitler Made a Video Game" sounds like a bad subreddit

 

[Quote]

In other words: You tell me Hitler worked on Yoshi's Island? Well, it' still the best game ever made and it is not noticable in the game.

These are two really loaded sentences.

 

[Spman2099]

Earthworm Jim. Loved those games back in the day but after reading up on Doug TenNapel I just can't.

He also writes articles for Breitbart which links him to a very real, and very dangerous, hate group. It saddens me, as I rather like his games, but I refuse to support any person that aligns themselves with hatred.

I mean I'm German and enjoy the Wolfenstein series after all which has been about as sensitive about my people's past as a shovel to the face.

Maybe if in the past that specific segment of Germany had been more sensitive to other people's present they wouldn't be the de facto villains of every piece of fiction... Also, to be fair, the most recent entry into the series portrays Germans fighting for freedom and liberty from Nazi rule as well. So Germans aren't be portrayed as being universally terrible.

 

[ROUGE_BLOCK]

Separate the art from the artist.

Yes this is my motto as well. A giant asshole can make a masterpiece, and the masterpiece can stand alone from said asshole. Case n' point: Orson Scott Card and the Ender's series, he's a fucking nut and his comments about destroying all gays are terrible but, Ender's Game is a fantastic book and anything that wacko says will never take that away from the book.

 

[Zubz]

I mean realistically when you buy the latest AAA game there's a good chance someone on the team is doing some shady shit or has opinions you don't agree with. There are a lot of shitty people in the world and no industry goes without them.

Oh, that's definitely true. But in those cases, it's rarely brought to the limelight. Besides, I have absolutely no qualms with supporting a developer who I may find morally reprehensible if I feel they're only spending the money on things for themselves. Doubly so if they don't trumpet their behavior.

I have a problem with TenNapel because he proudly exhorts his beliefs, and is now openly sharing he's using our money to lobby against/harm LGBT individuals. I also have a problem with Luckey because when his skeletons got dragged into the open, he just shrugged and nodded.

 

[Hitlersaurus Christ]

One thing about boycotting these people's games, though, is that many other people (most of which are probably decent human beings) work on these games and are getting stuffed because of it. I mean, wouldn't it suck to put a lot of hard work for at least a year of your life and have it decried because of another team member's politics?

 

[Azzanadra]

One thing about boycotting these people's games, though, is that many other people (most of which are probably decent human beings) work on these games and are getting stuffed because of it. I mean, wouldn't it suck to put a lot of hard work for at least a year of your life and have it decried because of another team member's politics?

Pretty much this. Games are massive projects and the so-called "auteurs" are just as valuable as the guy who spent hours coding the engine- and I feel it rather unnecessary to boycott a game where one developer out of potentially hundreds holds views that you don't agree with. I feel like the onus is placed too much on the guy at the top, the Kojima and David Cage's of the world don't make the games by themselves, even if they are the face of the product.

 

[H2Yo]

Shadow Complex

Got it for free on PC at least.

Didn't ruin the game at all. Sure OSC is a dirtbag but it didn't ruin the game.

 

[Zubz]

One thing about boycotting these people's games, though, is that many other people (most of which are probably decent human beings) work on these games and are getting stuffed because of it. I mean, wouldn't it suck to put a lot of hard work for at least a year of your life and have it decried because of another team member's politics?

There're many games I can acknowledge as quality works thanks to a great dev team, despite having no interest in buying them. Usually, this is just a lack of interest in the game itself, but I don't see much difference between not buying a game because of that, and being turned off because of a director's actions.

Again, though, I only explicitly avoid projects if I know for a fact that my purchase is supporting something destructive. Despite my contempt for TenNapel, for example, I still happily backed Armikrog until I found out how he spends some of his money. And also the Wii U version taking forever. And reading reviews that just called it adequate. As soon as I made that discovery, my thoughts were less with the innocent team members who worked on a claymation point-and-click and more with the innocent people whose equity TenNapel was lobbying against.

 

[capylikesgames]

I was always really interested in the Alice series, but recent statements by American McGee have completely rid me of any interest I had in picking up his games. I do feel awful about his sister going missing recently, and I sincerely hope everything turns out for the best, but I don't have much else to say about him.

Essentially, it sounds like Levine is saying that the moral of BioShock Infinite is that oppression breeds oppression. But some questionable connections pop up once you think about the real world. Is he saying that in contemporary society, Jews (and in the case of Infinite, African-Americans) have taken on roles as oppressors?

I still love both games, but it's become clear over time that Levine's view on the subjects he wrote about may be a bit questionable.

Noticed this my first playthrough, and I've always been surprised that nobody else caught on to what the game was trying to say. I hear so many people praise Infinite for it's political commentary, but the little that it has is pretty backwards.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Didn't ruin the game at all. Sure OSC is a dirtbag but it didn't ruin the game.

True. The game was boring and mediocre even without OSC

 

[Necromanti]

True. The game was boring and mediocre even without OSC

I was really excited to play it since it got a lot of praise as a "Metroidvania", but I was surprised by how dull and janky it was.

 

[Azzanadra]

Noticed this my first playthrough, and I've always been surprised that nobody else caught on to what the game was trying to say. I hear so many people praise Infinite for it's political commentary, but the little that it has is pretty backwards.

The Vox weren't just African Americans though, they were minorities in general, including the Irish. I'l say it again, they were not supposed to represent a specific ethnic group but rather the exploited proletariat as a whole- its closer to a Marxist revolution than anything. Fitzroy is closer to say Lenin than she is MLK (before the retcon, of course).

The parallel in Bioshock is easier to see at least, with Irsael.